Episode Overview

Podcast: Religion on the Mind
Host: Dr. Dan Koch
Episode: #374 — Is Religion “Natural” to Humans? (Live from Theology Beer Camp)
Date: January 19, 2026
Guests: Dr. Myron Penner (Philosopher, Cognitive Science of Religion), Dr. Phil Clayton (Theologian, Philosopher)

In this live episode, Dan Koch explores the provocative central question: Is religion “natural” to humans? Joined by philosopher Myron Penner (and, for the latter half, theologian Phil Clayton), the conversation journeys through philosophy, anthropology, psychology, evolutionary theory, and cognitive science of religion (CSR). The hosts examine arguments from both religious and secular traditions, the latest scientific research, and the practical implications for therapy and lived faith.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Framing the “Naturalness” Question (04:00–08:47)

• Defining “Natural” in Philosophy:
  • Myron explains the difference between “natural” and “supernatural.” In philosophy, natural refers to phenomena explainable by natural laws; supernatural refers to agency or intervention from outside those laws.

    “When we're talking about... is religion natural... we’re asking: are religious beliefs, practices and behaviors the product of natural processes?” – Myron Penner, 05:06

• Traditional Answers:
  • Theological traditions (e.g., Barth, Calvin) argue religion is not natural—humans need God’s special revelation because “our mechanisms” aren’t suited for it (06:21–08:47).
  • Enlightenment secularists (e.g., Voltaire, Dawkins) claim only reason is natural; religion is an aberration that civilization will outgrow (08:47).
• Empirical Challenge:

  “As far as we know, every single human culture… becomes religious at some point... It seems to be pretty fucking natural, right?” – Dan Koch, 10:04

2. Anthropological & Evolutionary Roots of Religion (11:01–14:00)

• Evidence from Prehistory:
  • Myron: Archaeological evidence of toolmaking, pigment use, and burial rituals suggest meaning-making and religious impulses predate written/oral language by hundreds of thousands of years.
• Robert Bellah’s Theory:
  • Dan references Bellah’s argument: the evolutionary roots of religion lie in mammalian play—“relaxed fields of survival pressures”—a context out of which culture, ritual, and language could emerge (14:00–17:22).
  • Bellah tracks the origins back millions of years, before even our vocal anatomy for speech.

3. Cognitive Science of Religion (CSR): Born Believers and Cultural Evolution (17:22–39:14)

a. “Born Believers” Hypothesis (Justin Barrett)

• CSR Origins:
  • In the 1990s, scholars from multiple fields asked: since religion is universal like language, is there a “species-level” cognitive explanation?
  • Barrett and others identify “evolved cognitive processes” like agency detection, theory of mind, and purpose attribution.
• Agency Detection Example:
  • Dan: “They show you a video with three shapes… everyone says, ‘The triangle is chasing the square’… There’s something in our folk psychology that thinks about agency…” (21:25–22:42)
• Religion as a Byproduct:

  “Religion just happens to be supported by these mental tools, each of which has an adaptive function... It makes religion very natural as a byproduct.” – Myron Penner, 22:42

b. Theological Implications

• Alignment with Christianity:
  • Dan: This aligns with “a pretty mainstream Christian anthropology”—humans created for relationship with God.
  • Myron: But the naturalness doesn’t get you the “triune God of Christian tradition;” just “a welcome host environment for beliefs about God” (24:52–27:04).
  • “Most of our human history has been polytheistic... monotheism is a relatively latecomer.”

c. Culture vs. Biology: Shifting Theories in CSR

• Cultural Evolution Argument:
  • Early CSR focused on innate cognitive universals; trend now is to focus on “how information gets transmitted” (cultural evolution), and how religious practices/functions are selected for over time (30:55–33:59).
  • Examples: Beliefs that support procreation or group cohesion are more likely to “survive” and replicate within cultures.
• Notable Quote:

  “Now the trend has been to pay more attention to actually the way culture not only tunes these innate cognitive propensities, but actually itself is adaptive.” – Myron Penner, 33:59

d. Adaptive Functions of Religion

• Group Identity and Cohesion:

  “It allows you, in these culturally embedded contexts, to bind people together in groups, identify who's on your team... It probably will help you find a mate, access resources...” – Myron Penner, 33:59

• Real-World Evolution:
  • Dan: Current shifts in American evangelicalism (martyrdom narratives) are examples of “cultural evolution in religion” playing out in real time (37:07–39:14).

4. Practical Implications: Therapy and Modern Lived Religion (40:35–44:36)

• Therapeutic Relevance:
  • Most therapists aren’t trained to integrate spirituality, despite 70–80% of therapy clients wanting spiritual integration.
  • Reframing religion as natural helps therapists avoid dismissing clients’ faith as “superstition,” preserving respect and understanding.

  • “For a therapist... thinking of religion as natural... will let me not judge my client’s faith. It will help me not judge.” – Dan Koch, 41:57

• Zooming Out:
  • Placing our cultural moment on a cosmic timescale helps “get rid of [therapist’s] own biases.”

5. Theological & Existential Questions: “Is Natural Religion Good or Bad?” (Phil Clayton Joins) (44:36–51:27)

• Phil’s Challenge:

  “…Is religion as natural—natural religion—good or bad?… Sometimes it feels like it’s on my side. Sometimes, shit, it’s problematic and I could be in trouble.” – Phil Clayton, 45:09

• Myron’s Response:
  • Religion is deeply human and can be both good (prosocial, group formation) and bad (in-group/out-group conflict, scapegoating).
• Dan’s Reflection:
  • Calling religion “natural” may reduce comfort and “dethrone supernatural arguments,” but on a long view, it provides a more robust, honest framework.

6. Debates Within Cognitive Science of Religion: Explaining or Explaining Away (52:59–57:52)

• Neutrality or Challenge?
  • Myron: Official party line in CSR is “not concerned” with the truth/falsity of beliefs—just the mechanisms.

    “…It doesn’t really tell us much of anything. But if you’re an atheist… it gives you a lot of tools to understand your religious neighbors. And if you are someone who does believe in God, it provides a suite of tools to help you understand your own faith journey.”

• Cultural Climate Shift:
  • Dan: “Fifteen, twenty years ago…the heyday of the New Atheists… I don’t think today it’s hard to find anyone with a PhD who’s gonna go on the record and say religion is bullshit…” (54:50)

7. Closing Reflections and Audience Q&A (62:42–End)

Examples covered:

• Ritual Sacrifice: (63:28)
  • From a CSR lens: Sacrifice signals costly commitment to the group; allows demonstration of loyalty—“it’s got to cost you something.”
• Individual Psychological Role:
  • Sacrifice (or penance) creates a narrative for processing guilt/shame—“corporate forgiveness mechanism.”
• Revelatory Religions and Evolution:
  • Emily’s question: How do we square the evolution of ideas with “revelations” like Jesus, Buddha, or personal religious experiences?
  • Myron notes: Cultures develop “bigger gods,” which psychologically and socially transform group behavior.
  • Dan: Recognizing religion as natural does not “eliminate” revelatory moments (e.g., the Buddha, Jesus). Their insights may reflect truly seeing things others couldn’t—these teachable/revelatory moments can still be “true” and culturally transformative.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It seems to be pretty fucking natural, right?”
  – Dan Koch, 10:04

• “Religion is good in that it really helps you identify who's on your team and it has certain pro social benefits… It's also bad because one of the best ways to strengthen in group bonds is to find a common enemy…”
  – Myron Penner, 47:05

• “If you put all your eggs in the basket of magic…the Bible's a magic book. My God is a magic God. We have to look for magic.”
  – Myron Penner, 62:31

• “Most therapists are not well trained to incorporate spirituality… It can be helpful for a therapist who might have a kind of bastardized Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins view… to go, oh, this is coming out of natural, cognitive, social, relational, meaning making systems…”
  – Dan Koch, 41:26

• “When you get a big God who knows your name and is morally interested in you, cares how you live your life—and, oh by the way, can also reward and punish you—that has different social and psychological consequences.”
  – Myron Penner, 66:34

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:00 – Framing the philosophical question: What is “natural” vs. “supernatural” in religion?
• 11:01 – Archaeological evidence for religious impulse
• 14:00 – Robert Bellah’s “Mammalian Play” theory
• 17:22 – Emergence of Cognitive Science of Religion (CSR)
• 21:25 – Agency detection example (moving shapes experiment)
• 24:52–27:04 – Theological resonance (or not) of the “born believers” hypothesis
• 30:55–33:59 – Biological vs. cultural evolution; CSR pendulum shift
• 40:35–44:36 – Application to therapy and practical integration
• 44:36–51:27 – Phil Clayton: existential/theological implications (is natural religion good or bad?)
• 52:59–57:52 – Who’s “winning” the explanatory debate?
• 63:28 – Audience Q&A: Sacrifice and its psychological/cultural function
• 66:34 – “Big gods” and evolution of moral/revelatory religions

Structure and Flow

This episode moves from grand theories (evolutionary, philosophical, cognitive) to practical applications (therapy, group dynamics, personal spiritual meaning). The tone is insightful, nerdy, warm, sometimes irreverent, and always intellectually curious. Guest voices provide balance between scientific explanation, practical import, and existential wrestling—modeling honest engagement for listeners at all points of the belief spectrum.

Takeaways for the Uninitiated

• The universality of religion points to deep-seated natural origins—via cognitive structures, evolutionary needs, and cultural transmission.
• Science can describe the how of religion without always being able to pronounce on the truth—but these explanations can feel either threatening or enriching to faith, depending on your vantage point.
• Understanding religion as natural doesn’t dismiss profound revelation, meaning, or truth—it situates them within a story that spans evolutionary history, psychology, and human creativity.
• The pendulum in scientific study has swung from focus on innate biological mechanisms to an appreciation for complex cultural evolution.
• Ultimately, religion is “natural” in many senses—and that’s both wondrous and fraught, depending on where you stand.

For more resources or follow-up, check out the adjacent patron episode and the upcoming series on C.S. Lewis’s The Great Divorce, as mentioned at the episode’s start.