Religion on the Mind

Episode #366: Rabbi and Journalist Jay Michaelson

Host: Dr. Dan Koch
Guest: Jay Michaelson – writer, journalist, rabbi, teacher on mysticism, psychedelics, Judaism, and law, author of the “Both/And” Substack
Release Date: December 8, 2025

Episode Overview

This lively conversation between Dr. Dan Koch and Jay Michaelson explores the intersection of religion, psychology, and culture—zeroing in on how religious experiences shape meaning-making in contemporary life. Jay, whose journey traverses Jewish mysticism, Buddhism, journalism, and queer spirituality, offers a wide-ranging perspective on pluralism, religious trauma, spiritual experience, and the rise of nihilism in the 21st century. The episode also engages head-on with issues like the rise of authoritarian religiosity, spiritual exclusivism, and the challenge of sustaining meaning and "lowercase-r" religion in an age of polycrisis.

Main Theme

Navigating Religion and Meaning in an Age of Chaos

The conversation aims to probe:

• The value and challenges of religious life—both in traditional and “piecemeal” (lowercase-r) forms
• The psychological and social roles of religious identities and mystical experiences across traditions
• The rise of nihilism and meaning-crisis in Western societies and why reactionary, authoritarian forms of religiosity are gaining traction
• The necessity and limitations of pluralism and humility in religious discourse

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jay Michaelson’s Religious & Spiritual Autobiography

• Background: Raised in conservative (but liberal-minded) Jewish household; moved toward observant Jewish practice in young adulthood, later incorporated Buddhist practice and meditation, eventually teaching and writing in both.
• Experiences:
  • Enchanted by mystical and marginal forms of Judaism, less by mainstream practice
  • Explored Buddhist meditation within a Jewish framework; later, “non-nightstand Buddhist” serious practice, leading retreats and writing about meditation ([05:08–07:26])
  • Tensions and fusions between spiritual and political/journalistic identities—initially separate, later unified:
    “Dad actually advised me... you’re trying to stay credible or something in the journalism world by hiding all of this religion and spirituality stuff. But what’s interesting about you... is the mix.” —Jay ([07:28])

2. “Weird Religion People” and the Social Perception of Faith

• Both host and guest acknowledge the outsider status of taking religion seriously in liberal settings ([08:16–10:33]).
• Notable Quote:
  “I don’t believe in the same God you don’t believe in.” —Rabbi Zalman Schachter Shalomi (quoted by Jay) ([09:37])
• The in-group/out-group dynamics persist for religious professionals—attributed wisdom, but also projection and incredulity.

3. Ecstasy, Experience, and Liberal Religion’s Failure to ‘Deliver the Goods’

• Jay discusses the historic absence of ecstatic, deeply felt religious experience in liberal Judaism compared to Orthodox and Hasidic settings, and the parallel within liberal Christianity ([18:54–22:25]).
• Tension: Liberal services matched Jay’s values, but lacked passionate “juice.” The traditions he disagreed with had the ecstasy.
• The modern expansion of alternative spirituality and meditation partly fills that gap, often secular on the surface but “filled with the sacred” ([21:12–21:57]).
• Jay’s Diagnosis: Liberal religion often struggles to provide communal ecstasy, contributing to the “meaning crisis.” ([20:14])

4. Pluralism, Perennialism, and Respect for Religious Difference

• Discussion of “perennialist” views: the idea that all religions share a universal core. Both are skeptical—it risks flattening genuine difference and assuming a “God’s eye view” ([22:25–24:47]).
• Both highlight the limits and appeal of pluralism as a “fact about the world,” as well as the persistent pull of religious particularism ([34:01–34:47]).
• Jay on pluralism:
  “There’s simultaneously more universalism and more particularism... for me, like, yeah, you do it that way and that’s different from this way—and maybe we get different results even... as a nondualist, right, that’s all faces of the sacred and some undefined.”

5. Insider/Outsider Trauma and Overcoming Religious Prejudice

• Jay: Growing up Jewish on Long Island, Christianity was “defined by all the shitty things you people did to us.” The process of moving beyond that required both encountering open-minded Christians and his own mystical experiences with Christ figures ([42:24–48:56]).
• Notable Quote ([43:54]):
  “Christianity was defined by all the shitty things you people did to us. And also it was monolithic. I think that’s another thing... which is ludicrous. Right. But that was how I from the outside understood it as a teenager and as, as a kid.”
• Both note developmental aspects—group prejudice as a feature of adolescence and early experience.

6. Nihilism, Meaning Crisis, and Conservative Religion’s Contemporary Appeal

• Jay: Meaning structures from work, community, and religion have collapsed under late capitalism, fueling a pervasive nihilism—especially among youth ([56:28–59:06]).
• While “hyper-capitalism” plays a role, it is this nihilism that leaves people susceptible to “hard-core,” authoritarian religious and nationalist movements ([60:59–62:18]).
• “The best answer to nihilism seems to be really, really conservative stuff. Right. So nationalism, very conservative religion...” —Jay ([58:36])

7. Lowercase-r Religion and the Futility of Piecemeal Spirituality

• Dan summarizes Jay’s “lowercase r” religion thesis: that moderns try to construct meaning by intentionally pulling from various traditions, but this bricolage cannot compete, in a time of chaos, with the “juice” of robust traditional forms ([62:18–65:36]).
• “When there’s... chaos set to increase with the rapid increase in AI and whatever economic dislocation... the conditions for a hard right response to that are intensified.” —Jay ([65:35])

8. Pluralism, Catastrophizing, and the “Wide Road” Problem

• Dan introduces the psychological “wide road” metaphor: Some aspects of psychological or spiritual malaise will always be with us; the challenge is acceptance and prudent mitigation, not utopian “solutions” ([67:11–69:34]).
• Both agree that efforts to combat nihilism and authoritarianism are necessary, but ultimate societal control is an illusion—focus is best placed on prudence, humility, and “mitigating the ill effects” ([74:51–77:34]).
• Notable maxim:
  “People get stupid wholesale and they get wise retail.” —(Quentin Crisp, quoted by Jay) ([77:45])

9. Religion, Power, and American Exceptionalism

• Speculation about the limits of American susceptibility to true fascist movements, given national character and historical resistance to large-scale central authority, even among right-leaning groups ([80:01–83:58]).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Jay’s tongue-in-cheek spiritual autobiography:
  “I’m fully enlightened and I experience no pain or suffering in my existence day to day. So that’s really all you need to know.” ([04:46])
  (Immediately followed by: “No, that is false.”)

• The challenge of pluralism:
  “I like to think of pluralism as a fact about the world that we have to deal with. Maybe that’s the cognitive therapist in me, as opposed to... an approach.” —Dan ([34:01])

• Jay on “the juice” versus in-group/out-group cost:
  “If I had to choose, if somebody said you can have all of that juice but you have to pay for it with in group out group or not, I really do think I would choose not.” ([45:27])

• Insights on conservative resurgence:
  “It’s rarely good when you have a deficit of meaning among a large angry populace.” ([71:49])

• Dan on focus and humility:
  “As a cognitive therapist, I have to remind myself, I don’t know the future. And if anybody did, they would become a billionaire instantly.” ([74:51])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jay’s religious journey: [04:46–08:16]
• Ecstasy & “delivering the goods” in religion: [18:54–22:25]
• Pluralism and perennialism critique: [22:25–24:47]
• Addressing religious trauma and healing: [42:24–48:56]
• The meaning crisis and rise of nihilism: [56:27–62:18]
• Lowercase-r religion and worries about the future: [62:18–65:36]
• Wide road/narrow road: psychological realism: [67:11–69:34]
• Catastrophizing vs. prudent acceptance: [74:51–77:34]
• American resistance to state “fascism”: [80:01–83:58]

Resources & Further Reading

• Jay’s Substack: Both/And
• Books by Jay Michaelson:
  • God vs. Gay: The Religious Case for Equality — “Argues that the majority of our shared religious values, Christian and Jewish values, argue for dignity and love and companionship and things like that.” ([84:46])
  • Enlightenment by Trial and Error — Personal spiritual autobiography, blending Buddhist, Jewish, and contemplative insight ([86:15])

Tone and Language

The episode’s tone is intellectually curious, wry, self-deprecating, and nuanced—blending deep scholarly engagement with “a little bit of cussing.” Both host and guest are open about their backgrounds, the oddities and tensions of being “weird religion people,” and their disagreements with both fundamentalist religion and smug secularism. Humor and humility are present throughout.

For Further Engagement

Jay will likely return as a guest for a future “I Don’t Believe in That God” episode—conversations designed to compare religious worldviews and clarify nuances within and across faith traditions ([14:05]).

Skip-List

Opening ad, Patreon announcements, and “Back of Mind” segment at the end (about emo lyrics and the song “Jesus Christ” by Brand New; from [86:56] onward) are non-core content and can be skipped without missing the main interview.

Compiled by Religion on the Mind Podcast Summarizer – preserving the full ambition, humor, nuance, and pluralism at the heart of Dan and Jay’s conversation.