Podcast Summary: Religion on the Mind

Episode #382 - Religious “Nones” and “Dones” with Ryan Burge

Host: Dr. Dan Koch
Guest: Ryan P. Burge (author, pastor, data analyst, Substack: "Graphs about Religion")
Date: February 23, 2026

Overview & Main Theme

This episode delves into the evolving landscape of American religion, particularly focusing on "nones" (those with no religious affiliation) and "dones" (those who have left religion entirely). Dr. Dan Koch and Ryan Burge discuss Burge's forthcoming book, The Vanishing Church, and unpack findings from major research projects on religious disaffiliation. They address the decline of moderate, cross-pressure religious spaces, the psychological effects on those who leave religion, self-worth and life satisfaction among the religious and nonreligious, and dig into fresh data on gender identity among young people.

The tone is candid, accessible, and sprinkled with humor—as well as a bit of cussing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Vanishing of Moderate Religion

[03:47-13:13]

• Burge's Book, The Vanishing Church: The book investigates the disappearance of moderate, cross-pressured religious spaces in America, centering largely on White Christianity.
  • “White Christianity is incredibly conservative now... It’s not just evangelicals.” – Ryan Burge [08:10]
  • Even after church splits, 60% of United Methodists and 50% of members in liberal denominations like the ELCA still voted for Trump in 2024. [12:17]
• Personal Narrative: Burge shares about the closing of his own moderate Baptist church and the difficulty of finding a “thoughtful, moderate-ish” Christian community.
  • “My church... was kind of the church I wanted to be a part of... closed in July.” [07:09]
• Self-Selection & Polarization:
  • Congregations are increasingly homogenous—people select into churches that match their politics, theology, and social perspectives.
  • “If you’re a Dorothy Day style, social justice Catholic... where’s the church for you? The answer is: there is none.” [10:50]
• Decline of Mainline Churches: In non-urban America, non-evangelical options are vanishing; mega-churches and Catholic churches remain dominant. [13:23]

2. Life Satisfaction, Self-Worth, and Church Homogeneity

[14:27-19:58]

• Religion’s Psychological Benefits: Koch draws from existential psychology: religion (esp. in homogenous communities) often provides narrative coherence, frameworks for suffering, and affirmation.
  • “Religion provides... a coherent narrative of life events... frameworks for understanding suffering... answers to ultimate questions.” – Dr. Dan Koch [14:27]
• Homogeneity Yields Short-Term Benefits: As churches get more homogenous, short-term psychological satisfaction rises, but this comes at the cost of cross-group understanding—a risk for democracy.
  • “It does feel good in the moment... but that’s not good for democracy, right?” – Ryan Burge [18:38]
• Long-Term Consequence: There’s a “diabetes” analogy: indulging in what feels good (homogeneity/tribalism) yields eventual negative social outcomes.
  • “At the end of the day you’re gonna have to chop your toes off...” [20:23]

3. Finding Meaning and Well-being after Leaving Religion

[24:12-34:02]

• The Nones and Dones Study: Burge and Tony Jones’ “Making Meaning in a Post-Religious America” project investigates how people without religion find self-worth and meaning.
  • “Are the nones actually struggling?... Significant number of nones don’t have a God-shaped hole...” – Ryan Burge [24:18]
• Typology of Nones (four types):
  1. Nino's: Nones in Name Only (spiritual but functionally religious) [27:14]
  2. ESPNRs: Spiritual but Not Religious [27:14]
  3. Dones: Fully disaffiliated, secular, content; older, “live and let live” [26:35]
  4. Zealous Atheists: Evangelical-style anti-theists, younger, more angsty, more likely to try to convince others to leave religion [27:45]
• Well-being Data:
  • Dones: Nearly as happy as Protestants/Catholics (~2 points lower on a 100-point scale)
  • Zealous Atheists: Significantly lower in self-worth and life satisfaction (~7 points lower)
    • “Of the four types of nones, zealous atheists are doing the worst on every possible question.” – Ryan Burge [28:38]
  • Suggestion: Anger/activism correlates with unrest; those who “move on” are more content.
  • “The people on the end are fine. The people in the middle are struggling... cross-pressured.” – Ryan Burge [33:01]
• Developmental Angle: Younger ex-religious often have more intensity and turmoil (“John the Baptist/Holden Caulfield phase”) compared to content “dones” later in life.
  • “There’s a glimmer of hope for zealous atheists—you won’t be like that forever.” [38:18]

4. Identity Crisis, Liminality, and Personal Growth

[34:02-44:44]

• Liminal States: The hardest psychological period is “in-between” stages—neither fully religious nor fully secular.
  • “You can’t fight these battles every single day for 50, 60 years.” – Ryan Burge [36:32]
• Emotional Peaks and Age: Intensity (highs and lows) is higher in youth; with age, emotional reactions to religion moderate.
  • “As you get older, the peaks and valleys get closer towards the middle.” [41:43]
• Coping & Therapy: Therapy can help process that liminal, crisis period after religious change; most eventually find equilibrium.

5. Data Dive: Transgender and Non-Binary Identification Trends

[47:55-79:59]

• Recent Data: Burge notes a surprising drop in young adults (18–22) identifying as neither male nor female:
  • 2020: 8.3% identify as non-binary
  • 2024: 3.5% identify as non-binary [56:09]
• Explanations Discussed:
  • Survey Trust/Safety: Some say young people now fear admitting non-cis gender on surveys due to political climate, but data collection was during Biden years [59:05].
  • Social Contagion/Fad: Spike in ‘20-’21 reflects rapid expansion of plausibility structures, group identity “fad” among some; subsequent drop reflects backlash and harder partisan lines.
  • Personal Identity Development: Most experimentation and identity formation happens in the late teens/early twenties.
  • Polarization: In high-acceptance (left-leaning) areas, prevalence remains; in the center/right, there’s increasing resistance.
• Public Opinion: Very little cross-partisan support for minors’ transition-related care or sports participation, demonstrating polarization.

6. Political & Cultural Reflections on LGBTQ+ Issues

[73:35-79:59]

• Trans Youth Policy: Majority of Americans (except atheists/agnostics) support bans on gender-affirming care for minors; support for self-ID on sports teams is low (30–40% max).
• Advocacy Messaging: The “trans kid or dead kid” rhetorical strategy may have alienated many; more moderate “safe, legal, and rare” approaches are more widely supported.
• Comparisons: Gay marriage advocacy succeeded by emphasizing “we want the same rights”; current transgender advocacy is perceived as demanding special accommodations, losing mainstream sympathy.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On polarization and religious self-selection:

  • “There really is no space for white, left-of-center Christians to worship in many parts of America today outside of major metro areas.” – Ryan Burge [12:49]

• On the psychological comfort of religious homogeneity:

  • “It does feel good in the moment... but that’s not good for democracy, right?” – Ryan Burge [18:38]

• On the well-being of the disaffiliated:

  • “The data says that actually a significant number of nones don’t have a God-shaped hole and actually aren’t really that worse off for it.” – Ryan Burge [24:46]
  • “Of the four types of nones, zealous atheists are doing the worst on every possible question we asked.” – Ryan Burge [28:35]
  • “Those zealous atheists... it’s the very online people... who want to belittle you for having a religious belief.” – Ryan Burge [33:01]

• On emotional development and religious change:

  • “You can’t fight these battles every single day for 50, 60 years. ...For most of us, we start going, ‘Ok, what really matters to me today?’” – Ryan Burge [36:32]

• On the decline of non-binary identification:

  • “2020: 8.3% in 18-22 year olds say they were not male nor female. 2024: 3.5%.” – Ryan Burge [56:13]

Important Timestamps

• [03:47] Start of in-depth discussion of The Vanishing Church
• [07:34] Burge’s experience with his local church closure
• [10:24] Trend of self-selecting into ideologically matched congregations
• [14:27] Coherence, meaning, and belonging in religious communities
• [24:12] Research on nones/dones and self-worth
• [28:35] Well-being differences between “dones” and “zealous atheists”
• [38:18] Generational differences in post-religious well-being
• [47:55] Data dive: Trends in transgender/non-binary identification
• [56:09] The drop from 8.5% to 3.5% in four years among 18–22-year-olds
• [73:35] Public opinion on transgender youth policy, sports
• [79:59] Advocacy strategies, political centering, and summary

Further Resources

• Graphs About Religion (Ryan Burge’s Substack): https://graphsaboutreligion.com
• The Nones Project: https://thensproject.com
• Upcoming Book: The Vanishing Church by Ryan Burge (Brazos Press, 2026)
• Online Class: Four-part series on The Nones with Ryan, Tony, and Tripp at Homebrewed Christianity

For Listeners

• If you are in the throes of post-religious angst and looking for self-worth/meaning, hearing that peace is possible—and normal—over time may be encouraging.
• The episode is a reminder to consider both personal well-being and broader communal health—pushing for easier group belonging can come at the cost of societal polarization.
• Stay tuned to Religion on the Mind for more on the intersection of psychology, religion, and complicated cultural shifts.