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- [00:01]
Dr. Dan Koch
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- [00:29]
Cameron Reed
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- [01:21]
Gabe Cortez
Summarize so you can cut through clutter.
- [01:24]
Cameron Reed
And clear a path to your best work. Learn more@Microsoft.com M365 copilot and Doug here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [01:48]
Dr. Dan Koch
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [01:51]
Cameron Reed
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten.
- [01:58]
Gabe Cortez
By Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Affiliates excludes.
- [02:00]
Dr. Dan Koch
Massachusetts.
- [02:04]
Gabe Cortez
Just a quick note, we did have some audio kind of technical difficulties with Gabe's microphone and our online sort of conversation platform that we use, which is called Riverside. So in the first like maybe 20 minutes there may be a couple things that Gabe will say that will you might get it through context. It might cut out a tiny bit. We're going to do our best to just remove anything like basically take out the tumor, but there might be a little bit left. That's maybe a dark metaphor to use here, but mostly it will be listenable. And then at some point we switch over fairly early on we switch over to a different microphone for him, which seems to solve the problem from there on out. And it's a little a little bit different sound quality, but still sounds plenty good. And the reason that we're powering through with all that is because the content here is so interesting. Like this was Such a fun and fascinating conversation. And I'm excited for the potential places that this sort of short fiction, psychology and religion stuff can go because I think it's maybe quite, quite rich territory. I feel like in Texas oil company that has a really good sense that a field is about to really pay off. Which again, is kind of an odd metaphor to use or analogy because then that makes me an executive at a company that is warming the earth. And I don't really. I don't love that. Okay, I'm gonna stop making analogies here and just. We'll play. We'll play the episode here. Thanks. Welcome back, everybody to Religion on the Mind, a very special patron only episode of Religion on the Mind, the podcast about the overlap of psychology and religion and spirituality. I'm Dr. Dan Koch, licensed therapist and spiritual abuse researcher. Coming at you live with two close friends. You might say that they're even family because one of them technically is, and that is Cameron Reed and Gabe Cortez. Cam, you are my brother in law.
- [04:33]
Cameron Reed
Indeed I am.
- [04:34]
Gabe Cortez
Dan, you know me better than most people. Keep your mouth shut.
- [04:39]
Cameron Reed
I'll see what I can do.
- [04:41]
Gabe Cortez
We just recorded an episode with your wife, who is my sister in law. But this is actually gonna come out first, I think. But you guys will have your religion on. You both managed to avoid ever coming on. You have permission. And I will. I do have a question for you about why I finally convinced you to come on this time, but here you are. It just took a name you needed. Or maybe I just needed to pitch you the right thing. Anyway, it's very fun to have family involved. And then joining us from San Francisco. So Cam and I are in studio live in my office studio. And joining us from San Francisco from the mean streets, Gabe Cortez. What's up, dude?
- [05:22]
Dr. Dan Koch
Very mean. Oh, you know, just navigating the mean streets.
- [05:26]
Gabe Cortez
Yeah. Okay, so this is an episode, the first of what I hope to be many that will at least at first be on this patron feed because they're a little more specialized. And the idea is that I have tried my hand at getting listeners interested in assessing films, for instance, from a religion psychology angle. Very limited success at that. And I thought about novels. They're long. And then I thought, what about short stories? What about short literary fiction? Because these stories are often, first of all, they're much easier to read or listen to or whatever than it is. Like a movie might take two hours, a novel might take 15 hours, whatever. Depends on how long it is. I read today's story everyday Use by Alice Walker. I read it in 15 minutes with my pen out, sort of jotting things down. This is not a big time commitment. So if you want to read before you listen to us talk about in the first half, sort of the power of fiction to elucidate things, to help us understand and think about the type of things that we're interested in on this show, psychology, faith, et cetera, then you could read that first. There's a free edition in the Harper's Magazine archive. There'll be a link to this in the show notes. So you can go pause for 15 minutes, go read that story, or you can wait till the halfway point when we sort of transition to talking about that story. And you could read it if you want. I wanted to pick something, at least initially, that anybody could easily read without having to purchase a book or anything like that. So we did find a story like that. But that's going to be more in the second half. And as I said, this first half we're going to talk about. Why is this interesting to us? You were the two. You were my first two friends that I thought of to discuss short fiction, and you both said yes. This has literally never happened to me before.
- [07:33]
Cameron Reed
Wow, I'm honored.
- [07:35]
Dr. Dan Koch
That's a good sign.
- [07:36]
Gabe Cortez
I think it is a good sign. Yeah. And in moving forward, my plan is to do these sort of one on one, probably. So, you know, either Cam and I or Gabe and I, maybe there'll be some other friend or collaborator who will join. But I think, Gabe, it was your idea that maybe just the three of us would chat this first time and have a more general, general conversation. What sort of. What made you think that?
- [07:59]
Dr. Dan Koch
Can't tell you how many times I've heard. I wonder if either of you have felt like this in the past or if you people who kind of think this way. But I've just heard so often the kind of line about reading fiction as kind of like, oh, I just don't have time for that kind of enjoyment, you know, like, oh, if I had sort of had anything else to do and I was on vacation and I was on a beach and there was nothing left, I might read. It just feels like such a treat to read and, oh, I just wish I could treat myself in that way. And there's, I think, a lot of iterations of that. But I think I have a lot of thoughts about that line of thinking on its own. You know, I mean, the first one being that. That I find reading to be quite challenging, even though it's something I do every day. But anyway, so there's more to say on that. But I think just generally speaking, I feel like I encounter people who don't read out of a sense of, well, if I do read, it's going to be nonfiction, so I learn something. Air quotes. And I probably won't have time for that anyway. And that, that's. That's hard to hear. I think it's. And I think it's sort of a problem.
- [09:08]
Gabe Cortez
Yeah, it's like if somebody says, I don't have time to read fiction, I might say, do you have time to breathe oxygen? Do you have time to look at a sunset? And then they will say, no, I actually never look at the sunset. And I'll say, touche. Okay, I get it. So you do breathe, but you can't read fiction if you really can't look at a sunset. You probably can't. But. Yeah. So people think of maybe, is it because of, like, beach reads? Is it because of genre fiction that people think of reading? I mean, honestly, now, with the ubiquity of screens and little TV theaters on our phones or movie theaters on our phones that we can take to the beaches of Mexico, even where there's no cell service now, I think if anybody's reading, I think, okay, good on ya. That's where my mind goes, you know?
- [09:59]
Cameron Reed
You know, you're talking about fiction being hard to read, and obviously, yeah, it's like, in a lot of ways, it's a lot more work. There's an active imaginative faculty that has to be employed, definitely depending on what fiction you're reading.
- [10:10]
Gabe Cortez
Right.
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Cameron Reed
Like, if you're sinking your teeth into Proust or something, like, you know, might take a couple vacations to get through it. But for me, it's like, I recently got back into fiction and after a brief hiatus and, you know, it's just amazing how, like, that's where I learned the most stuff, you know, is fiction. And you. And you can read more because it's interesting, because it's a story. And, you know, any good work of nonfiction, they have to put some, you know, you have to put some sort of story into it, right? Some sort of narrative to, like, hook people. So in my mind, like, I just finished, kind of went back to Barbara Kingsolver's Poisonwood Bible, and the whole point of the book, right, was to, like, take Americans into the Congo and sort of their complicity in sort of the Cold War politics there. But she wrote it as a novel because it's way. Maybe not way more Interesting. You know, like the history itself is fascinating, but you put it in a novel and it's accessible, it's digestible, it's entertaining, all of the things, but it's also educational.
- [11:16]
Dr. Dan Koch
I mean, to me, the whole learning through fiction piece feels so. And there's like some wonderful Annie Dillard quote about it where she says something like something about basically showing versus telling. And for me, just. That doesn't, like, sink into my being. That doesn't last. Right. There's. There's a nonfiction book which I personally really struggle with. There's the sense of like, I'm. This is some kind of learning that just feels too abstract. Whereas, I mean, truly, in a good work of fiction, you feel like someone is showing me something and I'm feeling something and like some, some element of life. Like, I feel like I'm getting to know life better. And it's like the way that a kind of truth can dawn on you. Reading a book is so powerful. I mean, like, really, actually thinking of the dawn, like there's this, like something is changing in the sky, in the environment. And then you're like, oh, my gosh, this, this thing just happened, right? And it's not like, oh, I'm just going to tell you, you know, love is beautiful, but. But you'll, like, feel it in your gut, you know, nothing does that like fiction. Close your eyes. Exhale.
- [12:29]
Gabe Cortez
Feel your body relax and let go.
- [12:32]
Dr. Dan Koch
Of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry.
- [12:36]
Gabe Cortez
That I wouldn't get my new contacts.
- [12:38]
Dr. Dan Koch
In time for this class.
- [12:39]
Gabe Cortez
I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.
- [12:41]
Dr. Dan Koch
Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.
- [12:43]
Gabe Cortez
And breathe.
- [12:44]
Dr. Dan Koch
Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.
- [13:02]
Gabe Cortez
I've been thinking in terms of food metaphors for like, podcasting and other forms of like, public work or educational type stuff. And so my, my two metaphors are like, it's a cheeseburger but with a side salad. So the burger is just fun, yummy, whatever. You don't have to. Nobody has to tell you to have that. But then you get the salads, you get a little something on the side, or the alternate metaphor, which is maybe closer for this podcast is like an entree salad, but it's got a chopped up fried chicken breast on it or a nice grilled ahi or something like that. Well, you're getting Some. Yeah. So the chicken. The fried chicken or whatever on top of the salad. That's, like the entertaining stuff. And so you have something that's like. You don't have to. I don't need to try to eat fried chicken either. If I could have that on my salad. I'm feeling pretty good about the salad. And it's like. So there's that. Which is resonating as you guys are talking about this. But then I think there's, like, another level, which is that there are some things that fiction actually just does a much better job of shining a light on than nonfiction ever could. And I don't know, maybe you guys have some terms that might sort of line up with that. But it is sort of the. You know, what's that great quote about showing not telling? Anyway, it's. Sorry, Gabe. Sarcasm is our love language in our friendship. Also, I forgot to say Gabe. The reason I thought of Gabe, he's a lover of fiction, also a therapist. Fellow therapist. We talk about this kind of stuff, too. We have a lot to talk about. So I asked you guys to consider a question. And I've considered it myself, which is, what is something that you've learned from fiction that you wouldn't have learned, or you certainly wouldn't have grasped it the same way if you just tried to read about it or hear it in a lecture or something in a nonfiction setting. So, Cam, if you have your answer, let's start with you.
- [15:16]
Cameron Reed
To be honest, Dan, I forgot about that question. So I'm just thinking on the fly here. But I'll take you back to the dawn, actually. To sunlight and the cave at the beginning of White Fang. I don't know if anyone has indulged in Jack London, which was one of my favorites as a kid.
- [15:33]
Gabe Cortez
Definitely read Call of the Wild.
- [15:35]
Cameron Reed
Call of the Wild Fang, yeah, is from the fucking wolves perspective. And it's a baby pup that is being birthed in the cave. And you're experiencing light for the first time. And I read this. I don't know how old I was, like 12. I don't remember. But it was just. It blew my mind. You know, it was like I was experiencing the phenomenon of light. And this pup kind of negotiating its feeble legs and moving towards the light. And, you know, so I think there's just that level of. I almost can't name one thing, Dan, because there's so many things. And I think this, for me, is the crux of fiction. Where it's, you know, kind of. Gabe, what you're Getting at is like it is totally embodied. Like it's not this abstract, it is enfleshed, it is experienced. You know, it's like what it is like to be a certain kind of person with a certain kind of body in a certain historical context on a certain front porch, you know, and. And just the ability to feel things that I maybe have experienced, you know, like some amount. I've experienced sunlight. Right. So, you know, it's familiar enough, but it's also takes me out of my own life, my own context, my own body, and puts me, you know, literally in someone else's shoes. And to me, that's the power of fiction.
- [17:01]
Dr. Dan Koch
Yeah, I really like putting you in someone's shoes. Right. I think empathy feels also really unique. I don't think you're naming empathy specifically, but maybe that's.
- [17:11]
Cameron Reed
Well, I was gonna get there.
- [17:15]
Gabe Cortez
Well, one rule about podcasting, Cam, I know you're new to this is unless you're done, don't stop talking.
- [17:21]
Dr. Dan Koch
Okay.
- [17:22]
Gabe Cortez
You just have to. You gotta hold onto that mic like you're playing capture the fucking flag. You got your bass was there. Did you have more to say?
- [17:30]
Cameron Reed
Well, no. I mean, yeah, Gabe, for me it is about empathy. I think it is necessarily. It's inherently an empathy building exercise, reading fiction. And to me that's part of the power, part of the moral valence of fiction. That's something that is kind of like a theory for me of why it's important is that that's totally built into it.
- [17:52]
Gabe Cortez
Right.
- [17:52]
Cameron Reed
It is an exercise in imagining someone else's life, seeing the world from their perspective. Right. And you get really great writers that can do incredible things where they're putting you into somebody in a totally different mental state or. Yeah. Totally different gender. It's inherently, I think, expanding our empathetic capacity. And to me, that's why it's so important.
- [18:21]
Gabe Cortez
Gabe, what's something you've learned from fiction that you would not have otherwise learned?
- [18:26]
Cameron Reed
Yeah.
- [18:27]
Dr. Dan Koch
Can I just say one thing about what Cam said? There's first, though.
- [18:30]
Gabe Cortez
Yeah, go ahead.
- [18:31]
Dr. Dan Koch
I was just thinking like about that experience, other people's experiences and stories, and I feel like growing up pretty conservative, evangelical ish. I do think, like, I've noticed a trend over the years as I've gotten older, and I think my ideas about faith have changed and morphed and it maybe a bit, maybe touch a deep destruction might say happened in there and all that business. So I feel like through that process, I do think fiction has really expanded my world both in the way I Experience it and in the way I experience the world. I mean, I think as a younger age, I remember reading specific things and novels and feeling like I just don't have a grid for that and being like. And as a young Christian, feeling like, well, those people are bad. I don't understand. You know, like, at the end, I'm like, that's too bad. Those people are so bad. Like, would, you know, some rough version of that might be the way I actually would think about something. And for sure, there are books that I'm like, oh, I just need to read that probably now.
- [19:39]
Gabe Cortez
So my answer to the question about something I've learned is it's really like, it does such a good job of giving you a sense fiction does, of giving you a sense of culture, time, place. I was also thinking I could talk about things like sibling relationships. You know, I'm thinking of, like, the two books that we refer to as the Brothers K. There is the Brothers K by Duncan, and then there's the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky. Near each other in the fiction aisle, by the way. And those books are both. I mean, I think David James Duncan is doing this on purpose. He's naming it after that because it's a. You know, it's a brotherhood book, but it takes place in Tri Cities, Washington, you know, baseball, as opposed to a monastery in Russia. But, like, the way that you are able to get into the sibling relationship there is the kind of thing that you just, like, you wouldn't even try and describe that in a piece of nonfiction. You're better off just showing it. You're better off just in fleshing these characters and letting them run around and do stuff with each other. And I don't think it's coincidence that, like, you know, I haven't done a lot of, like, writing workshops or anything like that. I know, Cam. You've done a lot more, and maybe you could speak to this. And, Gabe, I actually don't know how much writing you've attempted, but, you know, a lot of it is what's true. You know, like, if you've got a scene in a screenplay or a novel or a short story and you're workshopping it, your teacher, your friends, whomever are helping you might be like, is that really true? Is that really how it is? And it's not like, technically, did that happen? That's a different question. It's like, is it true to the reality of it? And in that sense, I think that both fiction and nonfiction are aiming to get at truth they do it differently. It's a different kind of a truth. But I was going to say a very simple connection to, you know, Christianity is like Jesus told parables. You know, he could have given doctrine or, you know, didactics. He could have talked to people the fucking way I talk to people. I've got three points for you. You know, like, he could have done that. He didn't. He's like, yeah, it's sort of like a farmer, you know, and like, there's, I think, deep wisdom in that. There are truths that can only be expressed in allegory or story or whatever. And maybe that's the most straightforward way to understand that, you know, from the Christian perspective.
- [22:25]
Cameron Reed
Well, and I think, Dan, that kind of hits on something that was in the back of my mind thinking about, you know, wise. Story is like just the depth and universality to which all human cultures that I am aware of, which is not all, but, you know, story has been such a huge foundational, formative, deep part of how we have come to know ourselves as humans globally, but also in specific cultures. So even beyond Christianity, that it just seems to work. It just seems to. To do something for us that we've needed for a very, very long time.
- [23:07]
Gabe Cortez
I mean, even the Bible itself, you know, it does contain letters and stuff like that. But, like, when you think of the most famous, the most well known book in the west, it's a lot of stories. And we think about the stories, we think about creation, we think about Noah's Ark, all the stories about Jesus's life, the Exodus. Right. It's like that just appears to be the way that humans sort of most robustly communicate important things to each other is through story. I'm sure there's people who have, like, studied this and written about it and thought about it. I don't know a lot of that stuff. This is not an area of mine, but.
- [23:47]
Dr. Dan Koch
Yeah, well, if I can pick up on that a little bit, I just read one of my, you know, my quota of like four nonfiction books of the year. I read that book Sapiens. I forget the author's name, but it's.
- [23:59]
Gabe Cortez
Oh, Yuval Harari.
- [24:01]
Dr. Dan Koch
That's right.
- [24:02]
Gabe Cortez
Yeah.
- [24:03]
Dr. Dan Koch
There's some part in there where he basically says humans are. Humans were made for gossip and, like, the idea of passing stories around. And I guess in my mind I'm thinking another element about fiction and stories. It's so wonderful is just how, like, we can do this about stories, right? I mean, you could talk. I'm not like a, you know, molecular Biologist. But I would think the conversation would be different, right? It would be like, do you know how it works? Here's how it works. You, you know, like, let's, like, memorize how it works versus, here's what I think. I get to imprint my life onto that. We get to, like, make different meanings and interpretations. They're all just like, it moves and it's dynamic and it's. It's communal.
- [24:44]
Cameron Reed
Right?
- [24:44]
Dr. Dan Koch
It's like exactly what you're saying.
- [24:46]
Cameron Reed
And I think, to give away my last point here ahead of time was something you said of. I think they're necessarily rich and ambiguous. And so that feeds that there. I think, you know, story, if it's. If it's any good, is going to resist sort of reductionistic explanations of like, oh, this character just has this DSM diagnosis and that's what's going on. It's never. That's never the whole story.
- [25:15]
Gabe Cortez
How dare you, you know, shut up.
- [25:19]
Dr. Dan Koch
You know, it's not even really a part of the story.
- [25:23]
Gabe Cortez
Okay, psychodynamic therapist, get the fuck out of here.
- [25:27]
Cameron Reed
But you know what? I'm like, they're rich. And so you can debate them endlessly, you know, And I think maybe going, I'm not super knowledgeable on this, but, you know, the things I've heard about the Jewish tradition and that, I forget the word for it. Dan, where you're wrong.
- [25:41]
Gabe Cortez
You don't know that about the Jewish tradition. I'm sorry.
- [25:44]
Cameron Reed
Where you're, you know, you're wrestling. It's this continual pulling out of more meaning from these same stories. Right? And I think to your point of, like, gossip in the communal. The way that you can really chew on them. And I think that's. There's something really beautiful there in stories that points to its richness and its resistance to being reducible to a specific abstract theory in any. Whether it's psychology or religion, theology, whatever it is, or race class, whatever lens you want to put on it. It's like all that stuff is in there. And it's more than that.
- [26:21]
Dr. Dan Koch
There is a word for that. There is a word for that.
- [26:24]
Gabe Cortez
Are you gonna give it to us? Did you wanna.
- [26:26]
Dr. Dan Koch
I don't know.
- [26:27]
Gabe Cortez
You don't know? You're just saying you're confident that there is a word for it.
- [26:30]
Dr. Dan Koch
I don't know what's worth.
- [26:31]
Cameron Reed
Dan.
- [26:32]
Dr. Dan Koch
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a word for that.
- [26:33]
Cameron Reed
Some literature. PhD is gonna be listening to this and just like, pounding their head.
- [26:37]
Dr. Dan Koch
No, they don't listen to Dan's podcast. That's fine.
- [26:47]
Gabe Cortez
Sam.