Religion on the Mind – Episode 356:
Why John Mark McMillan Walked Away From The Music Industry
Host: Dr. Dan Koch
Guest: John Mark McMillan
Date: October 27, 2025

Episode Overview

In this engaging and deeply personal episode, Dr. Dan Koch welcomes celebrated songwriter John Mark McMillan for an exclusive conversation on his decision to step away from the touring music industry after nearly 20 years. The discussion goes far beyond industry mechanics, plumbing the depths of identity, calling, artistic evolution, psychology, faith, and even the localist impulse in a globalized world. This is a rare, unfiltered exploration of midlife transformation, spiritual discernment, the challenges of sustaining a creative career, and imagining new futures—for self and community.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hard Realities of Touring in 2025

• 20 Years on the Road: John Mark describes quitting his church job in 2006, buying a conversion van, and launching a career as a touring independent artist supported by sales of CDs, albums, ticket, and merch. "My wife and I quit our jobs in 2006...and that's been my primary source of income." (05:17)
• Industry Economics Have Shifted:
  • No real money in recorded music anymore; touring is essential, and every artist is doing it.
  • Competition for venues is intense—John Mark cites "16 holds" on his preferred hometown venue for a Friday night: "I've heard three holds. 16 holds means there's no way." (11:00)
  • Costs have doubled for everything: fuel, hotels, band payments, marketing, etc.: "It's twice as expensive to tour now...all those little things add up." (12:00)
  • It's now "twice as hard" to connect with fans due to social media algorithms suppressing reach: "I get this DM once a week...hey, why do you never come to Chicago? I literally was just in Chicago. And you don't know, and it's not your fault." (14:16)
  • "It's a whole lot more work and a whole lot more stress for a lot less money. And so it's sort of like I'm weighing out, is it worth being gone a lot for a lot less money and a lot more stress?" (16:07)
• The Psychological Toll: The business stress bleeds into family life and personal well-being, leading to burnout and existential questioning:
  • "I didn't enjoy [this past] summer at all...my brain was like, you know, these set of shows are selling really, really poorly...And it's hard to stop and be like, I'm trying to eat dinner with the family. But I'm also like, I really could be posting something." (20:43)

2. The Midlife Shift — Identity, Purpose, and Calling

• The Call to Ministry and Spiritual Discernment:
  • John Mark invokes classic Christian language, but with nuance:
    "I felt like there was a moment...I want to say God spoke to me. It wasn't like an audible voice...I felt this voice ask me this question." (28:01)
  • This "voice" led to a critical self-review during midlife, moving from an identity rooted in being the “hero” (Luke Skywalker) to becoming the “guide” (Obi-Wan).
    • "Why are you still trying to be Luke Skywalker?...Maybe you were created to be the guide. Maybe you're Obi Wan, you know? And it hit me, and all of a sudden, I saw myself as a different person." (41:15)
• On Stage of Life and Changing Roles:
  • The transition from “protagonist” to “support figure” isn't just about aging out—it’s about finding new meaning and freedom:
    • "You can only be the hero for about seven years, if ever. But you were maybe not created to be the hero. Maybe you were created to be the guide." (41:50)
    • "It's actually...if I'm a little bit frumpy in my clothes, that's nice, because there's probably someone in the audience who doesn't feel comfortable in their skin. And all of a sudden, I get to show them that, hey, you're valuable...there's a reason to be here beyond maybe the reason I thought." (46:26)
  • The musical world, like other creative/professional fields, implicitly expects youthful innovation—but wisdom and mentorship become the calling in later seasons.
    • "I could see myself doing this into my 60s and 70s, right? Because I don't have to impress anybody. I can just serve people." (48:54)

3. Age, Creativity, and the Second Mountain

• Limits of the First Mountain (Resume/Accomplishment):
  • Referencing David Brooks's “Second Mountain” and Arthur Brooks's work on intelligence, Dan and John Mark dig into the difference between striving, identity, and finding deeper meaning.
  • "The first mountain leads to things he calls like resume items...but then later in life, you get to the second mountain, and those are the types of things not for your resume, but for your obituary." (50:19)
• Crystallized Intelligence and Letting Go:
  • "You aren't able to move as quickly...but there's another: the crystallized intelligence. The ability to retain ideas, to turn them around and apply them in ways that matter." (53:40)
  • On not clinging: "I used to say, in my 20s, I'm gonna quit music when I turn 40...I don't want to be Uncle Rico...I don't want to be the guy in the van who's in his midlife dreaming about his high school football days." (55:24)

4. Value of the Local – A New Vision for Music and Community

• Localism as Resistance to Scale:
  • Inspiration from Japan’s micro-restaurants and the singular chef working for just a handful of diners:
    • "There's just something so beautiful of people saying, I am going to find the sweet spot and I'm going to do something where the quality can only truly exist in a small setting." (64:13)
  • The dangers of always maximizing reach; how the best, most meaningful experiences often aren’t scalable.
• Participatory Music vs. Spectator Culture:
  • John Mark laments the professionalization and performance-focus of modern worship:
    • "Music…was not primarily a thing you observed. It was a thing you showed up to do...you saw a lot of families had a piano and before the invention of the radio, they would sing. After the radio, families would gather around the radio. There are places in the world that couldn't afford radios and pianos, but they still sang." (66:54)
  • The erosion of communal singing by technology, and his longing to revive participatory, embodied, unmediated music—"You're showing up because you are a person and you have a voice and you get to sing not because you're good, but you get to sing because you're a person." (68:09)
• Experiencing Real Community:
  • John Mark tells a vivid story from a pub in Belfast:
    • "I have never cussed on the podcast before, but I'm gonna quote, I have a family audience. I said we don't have our instruments and that guy goes, 'Well, you got a folkin mouth on you, don't you?'...So we sang a half ass acapella version of one of my songs, and before I knew it, the guy next to us was singing one of his songs...And then a red faced guy in the corner...sang 15 verses of an Irish lament..." (78:23)
  • On the ancient, sacred power of communal ritual: “We had this love. We felt this feeling that felt a lot like love. Felt a lot like church. They knew we were believers...It didn’t matter. It was like we were sharing life.” (79:52)
• Vision for the Future:
  • He envisions regular, participatory, local singing—no phones, no sound system, no performance anxiety, just humans making music together.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On touring economics:
  "Technically, there's more money on the road than there's ever been...But your share of that...is a lot smaller. And there's a lot more competition...It's really, really hard to sell the same amount of tickets that I used to sell..." — John Mark McMillan (11:19)

• On the psychological cost:
  "If I have to work this hard to make it work...at a point it's like, is it really worth it in the long run?...Being 45 plays into it. Having three kids...they're only a few years away from going to college." — John Mark McMillan (23:30)

• Reframing Identity:
  "Why are you still trying to be Luke Skywalker? Maybe you were created to be the guide. Maybe you're Obi Wan, you know?" — John Mark McMillan (41:15)

• On serving the audience:
  "There's a way to do [art] that brings dignity and value to other people, even though I'm talking about me...The real gold is when I can tell one of my stories in a way that dignifies the life of someone in the audience." — John Mark McMillan (46:26)

• On participatory music:
  "You're showing up because you are a person and you have a voice and you get to sing, not because you're good, but because you're a person." — John Mark McMillan (68:09)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-01:54: (Ads – skipped)
• 04:23: Dan congratulates John Mark on career milestones and sets up the conversation's focus on quitting the industry.
• 05:17: John Mark recounts the beginning of his career and nearly 20 years as a full-time artist.
• 09:51: The triple threat undermining touring: more artists on the road, doubled costs, marketing hardship.
• 16:07-20:43: The toll on mental health and family life; a summer spent preoccupied and anxious about tour.
• 28:01: John Mark describes a spiritual "prompt" catalyzing his decision: the shift from hero to guide.
• 41:15: The "Obi Wan, not Luke Skywalker" realization as a freeing midlife mantra.
• 50:19: Discussion of the "Second Mountain" — refocusing on purpose and legacy over accomplishment.
• 64:13: Spotlight on localism—drawing inspiration from Japanese culinary culture.
• 66:54: Aspirations to reanimate participatory singing and the question of what gets lost at scale.
• 78:23: The Belfast pub story—a microcosm of the deeply human connection made possible by communal music.

Closing Reflection

This episode is a masterclass in honest self-reflection and the art of letting go gracefully. John Mark McMillan’s candor about creative burnout, the grind of music industry economics, and the spiritual invitations of age make for a thoughtful, relatable listen. If you care about musicianship, purpose, or what it looks like to accept life’s invitations to change, this episode delivers depth, warmth, and wisdom. As both Dan and John Mark model, sometimes the richest meaning is found not in holding onto the first mountain’s glories but in giving them away—locally, imperfectly, together.

Contact & More:
podcast: Religion on the Mind
host: Dr. Dan Koch | dan@religiononthemind.com
guest: John Mark McMillan

(This summary excludes ad reads, intro/outro, and non-content segments as requested.)