← Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Charmaine
01:19:54
In this episode, Dr. Rena Malik, MD is joined by Dr. Charmaine Borg to uncover the paradox of disgust and sexual arousal, and how it affects intimacy and pleasure. Together, they share practical strategies for overcoming discomfort in relationships and discuss the importance of fostering connection and intimacy for better health and well-being.
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:15]
B
This is indeed a paradox. The body parts and products at the core of sex, like the tip of the penis, the vagina, the mouth, and body products like saliva, vaginal fluids, the ejaculate, these are extremely disgusting. Across culture, in the absence of sexual arousal, once disgust is learned, it's very hard to unlearn. We suggest really planned sex. If you plan sex in your agenda, it doesn't mean that you have to end up with sexual intercourse or the full blown sexual activity, but you really make time for each other.
- [00:55]
A
Have you ever wondered why the most intimate parts of sex can also feel disgusting? I'm Dr. Rena Malik, urologist and pelvic surgeon. And welcome back to The Rena Malik, M.D. podcast, your trusted guide for leveling up your health, sex life and relationships with evidence based tools.
- [01:11]
C
Today I'm joined by Dr. Charmaine Borg.
- [01:13]
A
A leading clinical psychologist and certified psycho sexologist from the University of Groningen, whose groundbreaking research has helped us better understand.
- [01:22]
C
This surprising paradox of disgust and arousal.
- [01:25]
A
We're exploring why body fluids that sometimes feel intoxicating at one point can become repulsive the next. How men face crushing performance, pressure in the bedroom, and the surprising truth about whether sex or masturbation actually helps you sleep better. Dr. Borg even helped develop a self defense bracelet that uses disgust to stop attackers.
- [01:47]
C
I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Really quickly, before we get into the.
- [01:51]
A
Conversation, if you haven't downloaded my top 10 free tips to enhance pleasure, check it out at www.renamelicmd.com. more pleasure.
- [02:02]
C
Again, that's www.renamelicmd.Com.
- [02:06]
A
More pleasure.
- [02:07]
C
All right, Dr. Borg, thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the Rena Malik, M.D. podcast. We're so excited to have you.
- [02:13]
B
Thank you. I'm so delighted and honored to be invited. So thank you again. Yes.
- [02:18]
C
Oh, you're so welcome. So I think, you know what really drew me to your research was you had a lot of research looking at sexual arousal interest as well as disgust and how they're actually similar, meaning sex is sort of something that we see as disgusting. Can you explain that a little bit?
- [02:37]
B
This is indeed a paradox. So on the one hand, you have this Gus, which is a basic emotion protecting us against contamination in the outside world. So in this way, it centers around our body and the intersection with the outside environment. And this increases as a function of proximity. So the closer this disgusting stimulus is to your mouth, for example, the. The stronger the disgust response. But indeed, as you're saying, the body parts and products at the core of sex, like the tip of the penis, the vagina, the mouth and body products like saliva, vaginal fluids, the ejaculate, these are extremely disgusting across cultures in the absence of sexual arousal. So it seems that these two discussed on the one hand, and sex on the other hand, they are both relevant for survival and for pleasure and protection, but they are working constantly against each other. Now, when in a healthy sexual context, sexual arousal will outweigh disgust. The problem is when disgust, for whatever reason, it can be because your partner changed a feature in his body that is now not arousing for you, but it's actually putting you off, or a behavior that was done that for you is considered not done or that you're transgressing. So now this sexual stimulus or person that before used to elicit sexual arousal and interest is now creating a repulsion that you don't feel like you want to engage with this person or stimulus. So kind of it is really a balance that we're constantly in. And it depends which one outweighs the other, how our behavior will develop.
- [04:28]
C
So interesting. So what I want to sort of recapitulate what you said. Basically, the feeling of disgust is a way to protect ourselves, right? With things that we see as disgusting are usually things that are dangerous, right? We don't want to get snot on ourselves because we'll get sick, right? That sort of stuff. But then obviously sexual products, right? The things that are made from the orifices that we use for sex, whether that's lubrication, ejaculation, saliva, that is all typically perceived as disgusting on its own. But when we're having sex with someone, sometimes those can even be arousing, right? Some people will talk about how the smell of, like the vagina, for example, is. Is. Is intoxicating. Or there's actually maybe an evolutionary reason why men are drawn to that smell. And similarly, like, women will describe sort of in like, erotic novels, like this musty smell of a man that they really find attractive. So I'm curious, sort like, how does the brain know which one is sexy and which one is disgusting? Like, how do you sort of separate those out?
- [05:33]
B
I think it's very much as a function of the length of the relationship, I would say. So in the beginning when sexual arousal is very high, then everything is sexy. Then coming, like if your partner to come off the gym sweaty, maybe not smelling extremely nice, that you will interpret as sexy, want to approach, it's novel still. But later on, when the body habituate to each other, when you get used to these novelty, it's no longer novelty. Then you would say, please go and get a shower first. Because it's sexual arousal that is driving this appetite and it's lowering this disgust by default. It's the same with children. Children in pre puberty. When they are finding sexual stimuli perhaps interesting but not sexual as yet, they will create avoidance. Like they will say, oh, it's a sloppy kiss, they wipe it away. Or oh, they are kissing mouth to mouth and that elicits disgust. Later on it will shift to interest and then they will engage. Most people will engage with these previously considered disgusting stimuli. So it seems that sexual arousal, when the androgens increase and sexual arousal stimuli have this sexual properties now, then they will elicit more approach and then you are more likely to interpret these ambiguous stimuli as appealing. But I think the culprit, so to say is really sexual arousal.
- [07:15]
C
Yeah. So I guess then obviously, like if you're not aroused by somebody and say you had to say exact mates, but one was not arousing to you and they had this, they were both sweaty after the gym, you'd be like. One would be like, oh, that's hot. And the other one you'd be like, oh, that's disgusting. That sort of is what you're saying. Basically it just depends on how attracted and turned on you are by the person that allows you to sort of look past those things at this moment in time.
- [07:42]
B
Indeed, because the same person can elicit sexual arousal now and as you know, a few years after, this person can do the exact same thing and look exactly, precisely the same and elicits a totally different trigger in you.
- [07:58]
C
Yeah, it's funny, you know, people, I think today, they talk about it as like the ick.
- [08:02]
A
Right.
- [08:02]
C
They'll be with someone and all of a sudden that person will do something and it will trigger this ick factor. Like they all of a sudden find something very disgusting about their partner. Do you think that' also like to some degree like a psychological mechanism like, oh, you maybe are fearful of committing to somebody or, or like, is there something more behind that than just like it's not novel anymore?
- [08:26]
B
It can be, but I believe strongly that it's novelty. We all need novelty. And if it's not there, I very often Associate foods with sexual. And I think if you eat the same item that used to elicit all kinds of salivation, when you even think about the item, if you had to eat it Monday to Friday morning, lunch and dinner, I think at some point salivation will stop and later on it might become aversive. You don't need to change the partner every time to keep the novelty, of course, but you can change a spice, add attention to it, or change the context of how you're eating this food item. And I think this is very much related to relationships as well, that when novelty goes and it doesn't mean we say that long term relationships usually are 18 months plus. But it's not the same for everyone. For some people you get bored or things become routine and the task like rather than sexual and sensual. After a couple of days, we cannot really tell when the ick factor, so to say, is triggered. So that would be one side of the issue. Another point is that it can trigger in you some psychological, perhaps implicit memory that you have that you are not aware of. Like for example, to be concrete, if you consider anal sex to be totally not done for you, it triggers disgust and it's negative and you don't go there and your partner asks for it or shows that he's interested in it, that can instantly change how you perceive that person. And the properties of disgust are very difficult in the sense complex once disgust is learned. And we have a lot of studies, a series of studies with conditioning work to show this, that once disgust is learned, it's very hard to unlearn. So the problem is that if one item, one feature of that person now becomes with disgust properties, it's very easy to generalize that that's generalized to the whole person, to the whole being. And it's very difficult to unlearn though these are properties of the emotion of disgust. We have done quite some work to understand what are the best strategies to unlearn disgust once is learned. And again, it's quite complex. It also tells why in various psychopathologies when disgust is a culprit, the exposure therapies that are used for other psychopathologies where fear is relevant as well, is not effective for disgust or not sufficient for disgust. So experiment exposure only doesn't do much for unlearning disgust. And this could be very much related to the threat. With fear you easily see, like if you had to see a dog rushing towards you and someone puts the dog on leash, automatically the fear subsides. So the boundaries of the threat are very Clear, that's very different than disgust. Disgust is not always visible and it can be part of the self and it can. The consequence of the threat cannot be crystal clear because sometimes, as I'm saying, it can be part of the self or a memory or a thought, a behavior that perhaps happened in the past or an experience that you had.
- [12:13]
C
So say you're with a partner, right, like for a long period of time, and you start finding something about them disgusting, right? And maybe it's subconscious, but you're now avoiding intimacy with your partner.
- [12:26]
A
Like how.
- [12:26]
C
So what are some strategies you can use to overcome disgust?
- [12:30]
B
So when we talk about unlearning disgust or to override the disgust emotion, we think of emotion regulation. So you try to downregulate disgust. You can cognit. Make a cognitive switch by highlighting the functionality of the item, the feature that that person is disgusted for or by. However, I think the most important here would be whether it is something, a feature like, for example, we have people disgusted by their genitals or people disgusted by parts of their bodies, right? Not necessarily genitals, but parts of their bodies that's slightly easier to unlearn because you can highlight the functionality, perhaps focus attention on the disgust feature with prolonged contact until you override this anxiety, this disgust, this fear of contamination. But the problem is more when disgust is more generic, when you can't really pinpoint your finger, what are you disgusted by? It doesn't need that you feel. It doesn't necessarily need to feel or make you feel sick or disgusted, but it can be just a repulsion, like you've mentioned before, the ick. Feeling like that you don't feel like. Like it's like used to do before. I would always focus on pleasure and sexual arousal because we know that the power of sexual arousal, it's so strong, it's so intense that if we had to increase sexual arousal, focus on pleasure, then the capacity for disgust and other similar negative emotions I would say would be minimized. So in general, rather than focusing on minimizing disgust, I would work on increasing sexual arousal and pleasure.
- [14:35]
C
Okay, so I guess the other thing you said, prolonged physical contact. So if you feel like a specific body part is disgusting, let's say, for example, you find you like you give an example, the head of the penis. I don't know, for whatever reason you find it off. Putting as a female or as a male, you all of a sudden find the odor of your partner unappealing. Basically, what you're saying is, think about, okay, this organ provides me A lot of pleasure and just continually expose yourself to it. Like, kind of focus on the positive and just like keep having sex or being intimate or viewing that body part. Is that what you're sort of saying?
- [15:18]
B
Yes, exactly. So more prolonged physical contacts. And if it's say the vaginal fluid, I would really encourage the client to stick with it. Like to touch it, to let it dry on the fingers till you get used to it. The other, it's quite difficult to get used to it because other is so implicit when you have a very disgusting, aversive order. It's not as simple to say stick with it because I think it's minimizing, it's suppressing the arousal part, the sexual arousal part. So it's again, it's an interplay constantly. So I would try to focus on increasing sexual arousal by maybe distracting away from this other and focusing more on what gives you pleasure. And I think practical things in this case, like adding candles or specific perfumes that can outshadow this particular other body lotion. So I would think in this case I would more focus on things outside of the box rather than focusing on that specific odor. Because we know once the other is there, it's difficult to use counter conditioning, for example, to now start liking that other. That's very hard to work in that direction, I guess.
- [16:37]
C
I'm listening to this and I'm like, okay, is it all worth it? Like, I think it depends on your individual relationship with that person.
- [16:44]
A
Right.
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C
And like, is it valuable to you? But it seems like it could be a very uncomfortable and sort of like just an uncomfortable situation where you just feel like you're forcing yourself to do something that you really don't want to do, and particularly that involves sex. So then it sort of. Are you now linking sex with this, like, sort of uncomfortable feeling of being putting yourself in a situation that's uncomfortable. And now sex is overall like you're now associating sex with this discomfort.
- [17:11]
B
So I would say never go for sex if you feel discomfort, if you.
- [17:16]
C
Have pain or I mean the discomfort of like dealing with whatever the stimulus is that's causing you disgust, not specifically pain or, or like the actual act of sex is feeling forced, but like the. It's. You're not feeling forced to have sex. You're feeling forced to have prolonged contact with the thing that's causing you disgust because you really want to make it work. So does that then sort of transfer those negative feel feelings towards the act of intimacy?
- [17:41]
B
Yes. So again, you need to study the case. Case Per case, however, it does not sit right with me to encourage someone to sit through something or to stay with something that makes them very uncomfortable during sex. Because as you're saying, this is the most raw, the most intimate part of your being. So I would very much focus on trying to use other perfumes, other stimuli to outshadow that. But sitting with it through the discomfort seems very harsh.
- [18:18]
C
I'm trying to sort of understand because prolonged contact. Right. Means sort of sitting with it, but you're sort of saying like, sit with it, but maybe not always in the bedroom, or if you're in the bedroom, try to focus on the other aspects of it.
- [18:30]
A
Right.
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C
That's sort of. I just. I'm trying to clarify for the. The audience is like. We don't mean like, force yourself to. To be with someone when you're feeling disgust, but maybe try to have contact with it outside of a sexual experience. And then also when you're in that sexual experience, highlight the other arousing things. Is that what you're saying?
- [18:48]
B
Yes and no. I would say it's not easy. It's a complex situation. I would always start by working on sexual arousal, trying to minimize the disgusting stimulus, use other concrete aspects to overshadow, or try to highlight the sensuality, improve the context in order to minimize the disgust capacity. Now, when I say prolonged physical contact, I'm thinking more about specific stimuli, about the individual by themselves, like, for example, the ejaculate or, for example, vaginal fluids, or some women experience their vulva as ugly skin and smelly of fish. So I would expose them with a mirror to try to get used to their genitals and then highlight the functionality of, for example, this fluid. So more at that aspect, I would have a hard time to encourage anyone to sit through the discomfort. Ideally, highlight the positives to minimize the capacity for the negative. So to say, trying to unlearn disgust remains to be very difficult. So working on pleasure and sexual arousal seems to be the more efficient way to go when you are having sex or an intimacy with another person.
- [20:23]
C
Sure. So I guess when there's obviously a concrete thing like a. Like a fluid that you can expose yourself to, that's a little bit easier because you can do that separately. But what if it's like a body.
- [20:33]
A
Body part?
- [20:33]
C
Like, how then do you. Because if it's your partner's body part, for example, like, as a whole, like, it's not a fluid, but just the body part, how do you expose yourself to that? I think is what I'm really getting.
- [20:44]
B
At I would create a safe environment first and foremost. And once you start discussing so by not looking at it or finding ways how to avoid contact with this part will probably elicit more negative emotions in your partner and in yourself as well. So I would say addressing this problem and creating a safe environment where you express what you're feeling, that you're not aroused and that this is distracting and disrupting your arousal might be difficult to approach such a topic, especially if it's for example, an oncology related surgery or treatment that now elicits specific smells or structures and the negative reaction in yourself. So it might be very painful and difficult to approach. However, I think if you put it on a platform in that I want you, I want to improve our well being and our sexual being because I want to be with you, I think you can turn it into more giving sex and erotic space for you to make connection and to be intimate together. So there is ways and ways, but I would confront the issue and try to discuss it in a safe place. And in that way you are still offering a prolonged contact, you know, like it's not just exposure without any reinforcement, but you're really discussing it in a safe environment, as I said. And by trying to highlight the positives of this relationship and why you want to improve it because this person is so meaningful for you.
- [22:29]
C
I think that in theory sounds wonderful. I think that in reality people feel very, they love this person potentially if they're trying to work, you know, through this potential feeling of disgust. They obviously love this person or care for them deeply, so they don't want to hurt their feelings. And you know, it's sort of like a very affront to someone's self esteem to say, hey, this part of you I just don't find appealing. Right. You might not say disgust me. That's a little bit of a harsh word. But I think you could say like I'm, I'm struggling with finding this appealing all of a sudden. And I think that's really difficult for the other person to hear. And I think people realize that. Right. So I think that's also if you have any tips on how to sort of talk through that sort of thing. Being mindful of, of sort of a place I know, like in, in other countries, like not in the US Sex is much more accepted. Talking about sex is much easier. But like in the US people tend to not talk as much about sex and they sort of struggle with that.
- [23:22]
B
Yeah, it totally makes sense. And I think this is not only for this particular item that now it's triggering aversion, but it's for sex in general, as you're saying. So when you have a partner with erectile disorder, delayed ejaculation, premature ejaculation, as soon as you encourage the person to speak with the partner, they say no, then it becomes too mechanical, I will hurt their feelings and it will become worse because now anxiety will feed and fuel the premature ejaculation, so to say, or whatever the condition is. So I think when you're discussing a sexual problem, there is always the fear that it will become mechanical, that it will hurt the feelings of your partner, that the relationship will change. I think the risk is of course always there. But my suggestion would be try to highlight the positives of the relationship that you are discussing this problem because you want better sex, this better quality sex with this particular person out of love, out of affection, and because you find this person appealing. I think most clients come with this issue that say the partner wouldn't like to start therapy because she or he thinks it's very mechanical. And there is this myth that keeps on being said and reinforced. I believe that sex should be natural. If the relationship is great, sex should be following and sex should be automatically great. You don't work on sex because that's something that everyone shall be good in this. So I think again it's trying to find the the right words and the right context to communicate, to give space to sex.
- [25:17]
A
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- [25:28]
C
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A
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- [26:40]
C
So I think that's, you know, that's great points. I think you have to sort of invest in sex and sex is not always going to be good. And of course it does require practice and work and dedication to have a good sex life.
- [26:53]
A
Right.
- [26:53]
C
And to maintain a good healthy sex life. So I want to switch gears a little bit. You had actually your work on disgust led to this creation of a bracelet essentially which was called the envy bracelet, which was a device that was basically designed, designed to emit a very foul odor so that attackers, if you were being attacked sexually, would be turned off and disgusted and hopefully not proceed with the sexual attack. So tell me, how did that, that come about and does that actually work?
- [27:24]
B
The start of this envy bracelet was founded by the idea that sexual stimuli are disgusting. So how do I have sex? Like if sex with stimuli are disgusting, how we approach and come in contact with these stimuli? And we conducted an experiment where we induced sexual arousal and provided 90 women with very disgusting stimuli, disgusting behaviors that they had to conduct. And the group that were in with sexual arousal induction, they perceived these stimuli as less disgusting and conducted more tasks. So there we confirmed that sexual arousal lowers the subjective feelings of disgust but also independently increase the willingness to come in contact with these previously considered disgusting stimuli. So that's the impact of sexual arousal on disgust.
- [28:20]
C
Let's go into the nitty gritty there. So what were the women asked to do for to elicit discuss and what were, I'm assuming the men if this was a study, like what were. Were they watching erotic films to get aroused? Like what sort of what? Tell me a little bit more about what happened in the study.
- [28:39]
B
Yes, the study was quite simple in its design. So we had 90 women, 30 in each group. We had three groups, an erotic group where they had to watch indeed female friendly erotica, then sexual arousal group when they had to watch people, couples in interaction but with no sexual connotation. And the group that were watching the video via Norway or something like this. And then we had 5 minutes video to induce the mood and then 2 minutes video again, 2 tasks, 2 minutes videos, etc. Till we had 16 tasks conducted. We did it this way. So we keep a proper satiation of sexual arousal throughout the study. Otherwise the sexual arousal will withdraw. And then you cannot really say that sexual arousal driving this behavior. But what we could confirm is that indeed sexual arousal reduced disgust. The tasks were extremely disgusting. For example, we had a cookie with worm lingering, a living worm, and they had to take a biscuit bite from the biscuit. We had a cockroach in a cup with water that they had to take a sip from. And we had very intense behavioral experiments, which I now feel very anxious to repeat. But this was quite some years ago, and apparently I was more disinhibited then. But we had a dog penetrating a woman, and the woman had to say on the mic, I, Charmaine, for example. So the name feel very horny with the dog inside me. And you could see that the emg. So the measuring of the levator here, which is a unique physiological marker of this gust, explodes, right, like. And they would really say, almost whisper, because they couldn't bring themselves to say their names. They would say charmaine, because they just can't. But it was very clear that sexual arousal drove these women to conduct a higher percentage of tasks compared to the woman in the general arousal or in the neutral group.
- [30:51]
C
The ability to overcome disgust was based on how many sort of activities they completed.
- [30:58]
B
Yes. And how they rate them. So I had the EMG measurements, the levator measurement, as I said, as a unique physiological marker of disgust and the subjective ratings. So how disgusting they find these tasks before and after completion of the task and the number of tasks completed of these behavioral tasks.
- [31:22]
C
Have you done this work in men too?
- [31:24]
B
No, we have done this study in women because at that time I was really focusing on women with vaginal most women that have sexual pain disorders and dyspareunia now, the gppd. And at that time, I wanted to understand how these women are expressing disgust in the FMRI in the scanner versus sexual arousal to penetration specific stimuli like these stimuli that are creating most anxiety in these women. So that kind of led me to try to understand if indeed sexual arousal is lowering this disgust that we're seeing or not. We confirmed that hypothesis. And at some point, quite some years after Rul, who is an innovation scientist, he told me, I read your study and I really would like to test the other side of the story. I want to look how disgust can kill sexual arousal. And at first, to be honest, I kind of could not understand his reasoning. I was like, that's not what I do. Really. But he had a very compelling story why it's relevant to kill genital sexual arousal, for a lack of better word. At the time, I taught very hard together with the team, I was working with what we can do to test the impact of this gust on genital arousal. And the study now was with men and. And we discussed the using smell because odor can be controlled better. And once you learn it by an odor, while the aversive smell is learned by the disgust is learned by a smell. It's even harder to unlearn. It sticks more. And we indeed done the study with a lot of help and different dialogues with various professors from chemistry universities in the Netherlands and also in the US we came up with a smell that we couldn't use via what it's called an olfactometer. And this smell will be in puffs. In a number of puffs. The smell that we used was diluted 1 in 100,000. So it was a highly diluted smell. In the bracelet, the actual neat smell is used. And we control. This experiment was very well controlled. We had a solvent like smell in the other nostril then because otherwise you can say yes, just because of the tube and the puff that the sexual arousal is lowered. So we controlled very well for this. And we could confirm that with the very first puffs, the group in the experimental conditions the erection was gone. Now what it means, of course it does not eliminate rape. So the bracelet is this. This is the inver bracelet. And with a man will move, you can break the smell tube here inside and the smell is released. Now, it doesn't eliminate rape, of course, because rape can be done with many other different aspects or things. But it gives space to the person to escape. And it has this very aversive component to it that the people in the surroundings will try to understand what's going on. It's like this threatening alarm almost that will withdraw people to try to understand what's going on. The problem with this bracelet, and I must say I have nothing in marketing or financial input from the bracelet. So let's put it out there. But what we're finding now is that over 65% of women under threat will freeze. So they won't be able to activate it. And this is not only for the INV bracelet, but for most of the safety tools that will have today. And the inva bracelet is doing very well in that it's being used in the art of Congo, Burundi. And it's a lifeline really for people that have a high risk and High anxiety and fear to walk down the street alone and for people that were already victimized. So it's part of the prevention and treatment for these women. However, because of the problems that I'm saying that under threat, women do not respond, do not react, and if you're grabbed from behind, there is nothing you can do. We are now trying to understand, using VR like the virtual reality lab where we create a very threatening environment for women to try to understand first, how do they feel wearing the Invebra bracelet, wearing no bracelet, or wearing the NAI automated bracelet to try the. To understand the psychological and physiological stress. How are they responding? Is it really true that the confidence is increasing that the person is feeling more safe, more confident? So that's one level of the study. And the data will be transferred to an AI department where they will study how the person is reacting physiologically to try to build an automatic activation of such a bracelet or any other tool that can be applied. This mechanism can be applied to. Of course, there's many challenges in this because if you are sporting, it can be activated. So you need to make sure there is a window where the person, if it's falsely activated, can switch it off or turn it. So that's something. A project that we're starting with a new PhD student this November, which I'm looking very much forward to it. First to understand what are these safety tools doing to the individual, if they are really helping, and then eventually to hopefully develop something more automatic automation.
- [37:43]
C
That's fascinating and I think that's really amazing. To basically work sort of hacking into your normal biology to protect people. I think that's amazing. Yeah.
- [37:51]
B
I feel very privileged that I had this opportunity also because it developed very organically. Like it didn't. I didn't assume we will get here with the first studies we were conducted. As I said, we started with looking at women with sexual pain disorder. So to arrive at this stage, it's quite a privilege. Yes.
- [38:12]
A
Some weeks I just don't have the time to meal prep and I'm running to work without my life lunch. I used to just grab a protein shake for breakfast and whatever I could find in my pantry for lunch. But I never really felt satiated. I would find myself rooting around the nurse's station after lunchtime looking for snacks and eating something like a donut or a cookie that made me feel horrible. I'm so grateful now that I have Huel's ready to drink shakes. On those days, Huel is a complete meal and comes in multiple flavors, including Strawberry, banana and iced coffee. And if you know me, you know I love coffee. They also have great macros, 35 grams of protein, protein, 6 grams of fiber, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, no sugar, gluten free and they are under $5ameal and ready to go. When I drink one of these, I can make it through the entire day without craving junk food and it's a serious lifesaver. Huel also has these daily greens ready to drink sparkling super greens drink. It's developed by registered nutritionists and dietitians. It has over 42 vitamins, minerals and superfoods. It's only 25 calories and has has 4 grams of fiber and only 1 gram of sugar. My favorite flavor is the apple cucumber mint and I love drinking it because it feels like a treat and I can never remember to take my vitamins and this not only does the trick, but it tastes great too. Huel makes healthy eating simple. They just launched in Target stores nationwide. Try both products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code rena@www.huel.com rena use my code and fill out the post checkout survey to help support the show. Thanks so much.
- [39:53]
C
So let's shift gears a little bit. I think that sometimes people also develop a disgust towards themselves. Not necessarily a disgust towards like a specific body part or a specific odor or fluid, but more like, oh, a disgust that maybe the appearance of their body, maybe the performance of their body, maybe they just feel broken. That can then translate to sort of. So how is that different? And how, and can that also be overcome similarly? Or is there a different approach?
- [40:26]
B
Yes. So what you're referring to we call self disgust and sometimes it overlaps very much with what we refer to as mental contamination. And we see this sometimes towards specific parts of themselves, but can also be, I think is best phrased as the distance between your actual self and your ideal self. And some men experience it, for example when they think of having sex with a younger person, for example and they feel so much shame, so much disgust towards parts of like their being or when they, when a woman is sexually mistreated that they feel this. Yeah, like philosophical dirt. We on movies we watch people that have been cheated on or they cheated on their partner and then they are washing away this philosophical disgust, this philosophical dirt. I think this is the best way to see it and that's even more complex to unlearn when compared to the disgust towards external stimuli. And for this type of disgust I would try to understand what is the cognitive snapshot of the person that is triggering this anxiety, this disgust towards their thoughts or parts of their being and try to focus on the positive aspects. The unlearning of this type of self disgust is very harsh. It's very, as I'm saying, it's way more complex than towards external stimuli. And I know of cases where they wash so intensely that they create wounds on their skin because they want to really wash it away. And a pilot study that I have read some years ago use, so it was more for mental contamination, but it's very similar to self disgust. Used this imaging rescripturing that when you are like when the skin of the snake is changed, that they first send them to search for information and then they look up the information to understand how quickly the mucosa and the skin changes. So then they understand cognitively that this skin that they have now is very different than the skin that they had when they were misused as a child. So they cognitively understand that now this skin is new. The skin has nothing to do with the skin of when you were an abused child. And in addition to that, they apply strategies on how you imagine yourself now as a snake, removing this skin and having fresh new skin. So I think these strategies or similar strategies can help you unlearn disgust towards the self. When they are taught, it becomes even deeper, it becomes even more complex. But I would find strategies specific to that, to that person and to that particular trigger to try to unlearn it.
- [44:04]
C
Let's give an example. Someone who maybe is struggling with erectile dysfunction or something like premature ejaculation, where they are now feeling like, oh, my body's not functioning the way I want it to. And they're feeling disgust at themselves. How, what's, what are things that they could use, like what are actionable tips that they could do to help them sort of work through those thoughts so that they don't feel that disgust.
- [44:29]
B
Yes. So I think when men and women, men when they have premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction or delayed ejaculation, they do say things like, I don't feel a complete man or a woman with vaginism, they say I don't feel a complete woman, don't feel normal. And they have, they focus very much of I'm failing, I'm not complete. So they won't use the words like I'm disgusted or yeah, it's more about that they are failing. So it's from a very judgmental stance. And I would say that the culture, the sexual scripts and the culture that we have now. At some point we were very much neglecting female sexual pleasure like we were. And I'm guilty of that as well that we focus very much on re examining and try to put now woman sexual pleasure on a platform. But in this process I believe very much neglected or impose certain ideas on men. But men are under tremendous pressure. They need to come not too late, not too early, always be ready and, and steady. And I think now it's, it's a very anxiety state to be in in a way. So I feel it is. It might be helpful to focus from the judgment to really exploring to try to understand rather than oh, I'm failing again, I'm not gonna do it again. To really stay with the feeling of what am I feeling now? How do I like it? Like exploration rather than a judgment point of view. So in this scenario I wouldn't associate it so much with the pool of literature and data and discussed, but more about moving from judgment towards more exploration and giving time and play and joy rather than like. I have one of my colleagues who always says Kober Eisenman, sex is not a performance sports and it's the same what is their performance. Else says it's a place you go, right. Not what something you do. And I strongly believe that the fact we're focusing on how in time we come not too late or not too early, it's very much focused on performance. I think sex, it's really about being about enjoying and it's good to crack a joke and to be together and give time. It doesn't need to be a task. We have so many tasks and especially in long term relationships, sex becomes a task, yet another task. And because of that, and this is more common indeed in long term relationships where we also conducted some studies on, on this where because sex is now on the back burner, we don't give time, we don't have time for it. So we do it as quickly as is possible. So we don't have time for pleasure, we don't have time to really be. And this is why I say for women it increases the risk of pain. And we know the high incidence of pain during intercourse in women is way more higher than we used to think. But in addition to that, that for men we're not. It's not because we see an erection, there is a pleasure, but it really creates anxiety and, and then we see more problems of delayed ejaculation or, or if you have a problem with coming early, this is Fueled with this anxiety because the pleasure is sucked out of this environment. And yeah, I think like from the background or the beginning of sex because it was so associated with reproduction and with male focused, with male focus. As soon as the erection is no longer there, then sex ends. But this should not be so. Right. I think. So you do it quickly, you do it fast, so erection is gone. Then, then sex ends. So that's a task. We do it quickly, check. But we do not give time to really enjoy and, and, and have fun. Like Crick's joke. Really like this is something that we don't do or do less. When you have less time in the beginning of a relationship, you go to a place, you have many hours to enjoy each other. But this changes when you have a family, when you have small children or a demanding job or all of this together.
- [49:16]
C
Absolutely. Sex is play, right. And I think there needs to be a focus on, on sex being playful and a reason to connect. Not just the act of sex, but it's really about being intimate with another human being and connecting with them. And so it's not about like the mechanics. Like we're not men are not robots and women are not, you know, always ready to go. Like there needs to be sort of a build up and a connection so that everyone can feel arousal and it can gradually build and lead to, you know, connection and eventually hopefully orgasm. And that brings me to my next point. You, you sort of did some research and I think a lot of people think that orgasms. And I do, I did too, until I read your research. Orgasms reduce pain. But you had found something different. So explain that a little bit.
- [50:07]
B
Yes. So this is a research line conducted by or led by one of my PhD students who is now graduated. So doctor, I must say, Lara Laxisi. And she found in a series of studies that that sexual arousal, so we had subjective sexual arousal is not sufficient to reduce pain. But this does not contradict what you just said. So your idea, your hypothesis is still true because we believe you need more than just subjective sexual arousal. You need genital stimulation, you need orgasm for the pain to be reduced, for the tolerance to pain to be increased. And this idea, I had it from someone that asked us, but don't you think that sexual arousal reduces pain? And we looked in the literature and indeed there was nothing. But anecdotally, we know that women might masturbate if they feel a headache is coming or to feel better, if they like an emotional release, which of course will help with the experience of pain. So we did not confirm the finding that subjective sexual arousal reduces pain. But there is some animal data and also orgasm studies that show that when there is Genesis stimulation and orgasm, it does reduce the experience of pain and increases tolerance to pain.
- [51:34]
A
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- [52:31]
C
Okay, so meaning that arousal itself, like meaning just maybe watching something or fantasizing about something and doing the act of masturbation doesn't necessarily reduce pain. It's actually you have to reach climax for the benefit of that to occur.
- [52:49]
B
Say the genital stimulation will help in this process. We only looked at the sexual arousal, the subjective sexual arousal. So as you're saying passively watching a neurotic movie, orgasm would be a stronger input. But genetic stimulation will get you close to an orgasm. And we did these studies in a lab. So when you're in a lab you expect 40 to 60 out of 100 subjective sexual arousal. So it's very far from orgasm or climax. So I think with Genesis simulation would get close to 80, 90 and that might have a stronger impact on the experience of pain.
- [53:28]
C
Meaning on a scale of arousal, like 40 to 60 out of 100, 80 out of 100 towards like maximum arousal. Okay, okay, interesting. The other thing that orgasm seems to help with is sleep. And you've done some research that I thought was really interesting that actually of course I think a lot of people can you anecdotally understand that when they have an orgasm they sleep better. Sometimes people actually use it as a means to fall asleep, but it's not just necessarily sometimes actually an orgasm, depending on how you get it. So by yourself or with another person can have an impact on the quality of of this the restful sleep that you get.
- [54:05]
B
So this is another line led by another PhD student, Carlotta Osterling, that she also finished this year. So I was happy supervisor and she conducted a series of studies looking at the impact of sexual behavior on sleep. And again I had an idea that discussing with friends that when you have a good sexual experience, most people feel they sleep better. And this is true as well for masturbation. However, in the literature there were only three studies and we thought we wanted to really deeply look into this question. And we found that the masturbation with orgasm was perceived by both men and women equally that it will help sleep retrospectively what they think. But when we looked at the diary study we found that only intercourse with a partner will actually lead to. To better sleep latency. So how quickly you fall asleep and the feeling of restfulness, so how good you feel you slept. And this could be for many reasons. It could be that the feeling of safety with your partner, so intimacy driving the, the whole structure of falling asleep quickly. And I also remember when I had my, my children small, that's when you, as soon as you hold them, they fall asleep and you put them in the cot and they start crying again. So it's more than sex or sexuality. I think it has to do more with the intimacy. Skin to skin contact, feeling safe. On the other hand, we also know that orgasm will lead to a bigger hormonal release like prolactin and oxytocin. So there are various essays aspect that can explain this finding. Then Carlotta conducted another study controlling for all these factors that we thought might be playing a role. And intimacy seems to be driving this data. Now another study that we haven't yet published, but it's in the process which we conducted with the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands, it actually shows that intimacy, intimacy is helpful for allowing you to fall asleep quicker and for the feeling of restfulness. But when it's medium intimacy, when it's with someone that you know, this is very different. When it's a one night stand, then this high intimacy or what's considered a high intimacy will actually disrupt the sleep, makes you wake up very often during the night. So this was a qualitative study, the latter one that I'm mentioning. And I find this very yeah interesting to look at it. I can imagine that when you're with a, with a partner that, you know, the safety is also higher versus with someone that you know for a few days or, or a few weeks. So that the intimacy might be higher. The Extreme excitement. The connection might be higher because it's more novel, but the safety might be less strong. The feeling of safety. So that makes you perhaps more aroused. I don't know how it works, but I have a lot of ideas what we can do to test this relationship.
- [57:37]
C
Yeah. I wonder if also say you had a very novel experience with your long term partner and intimacy was significantly higher, would you still, would that still hold true? Like is it just the, is it the actual intimacy level or is it the, the type of stimuli that's creating the high intimacy?
- [57:56]
A
Right.
- [57:56]
C
Like if it's a new person, that makes sense from a safety standpoint. But if it's just like you're having a very intense experience, like you've tried something very novel with your partner who you feel safe with, will you still then, you know, sleep really well and feel safe?
- [58:09]
B
Yeah, I don't have data for that, but it's a very interesting question. I would say that once it is with the partner that you feel safe with, independent of the dose of intimacy, you will still have a stronger sleep.
- [58:27]
C
Yeah, I think that's, that's so fascinating. The other thing is, you know, you mentioned that like with a partner, you know, I think people will start asking like, what if you masturbate with your partner? What if you, you know, you're, you're like not touching each other but you're mastering next to each other, like is that going to be different? I'm sure you didn't study that, but what is your thoughts on that?
- [58:46]
B
I haven't studied this, but it's a really good point. And I would say that if you're together, so you're naked in bed, still feeling safe and perhaps body is still touching, you're still intimate. I would say that perhaps I would see it more on a continuum. So it would not be as much as if you're having intercourse, like connected as one to romanticize, perhaps versus when you are masturbating next to each other. So it would be more somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't say it's similar to when you're masturbating alone. So somewhere closer to the intercourse.
- [59:33]
C
I suspect there is something about physical touch that plays a role just based on biology. Like maybe if you're caressing each other and you know, because I mean some people can't, don't nest. Like females don't always orgasm through vaginal penetration.
- [59:47]
A
Right.
- [59:48]
C
So like if they're not orgasming, does that mean they're going to have less quality sleep? Right. Like if the orgasm Is necessary for quality sleep. Then, you know, okay, so say they do have intercourse and then she masturbates to finish. Or he supports her in that and holds her. Like I think that would still be the same in terms of quality sleep because you've been intimate, you've been close, but if it's like very separate but you feel connected, I think you still probably have to touch to get that. Activate those like c efferent fibers on the skin to tell your brain, you know, I think you probably have to touch. Yeah, yes.
- [60:24]
B
The touch and the being naked together. I think that is what will trigger this effect. The intimacy, the medium intimacy. Yes.
- [60:33]
C
I mean it makes sense. Like, you know, when I can't sleep, like I'm like going to my husband to be like, hold me like I want to. I need help falling asleep.
- [60:41]
A
And it works.
- [60:41]
C
Right? And I think there's a reason for that.
- [60:44]
A
Right?
- [60:44]
C
Because it's that safety, that feeling of another person. I think the orgasm is just another added benefit.
- [60:49]
A
Right.
- [60:49]
C
Because it releases such a tremendous amount of hormones and. And you know, those changes that happen in the brain that help calm you to this like very relaxed state. But even just the intimacy of being together and touching and holding, I think is. Is really overall valuable for quality restful sleep.
- [61:08]
B
I agree. And I also feel when I'm on in a hotel and I'm alone that it's a different structure than what I'm used to. Then I feel, oh, I have so much time. I can really watch Netflix, read a book, and I don't have this urge to fall asleep. But when I try to fall asleep, there's no way I can fall asleep. It takes me longer to fall asleep, I think because there is no, not the usual environment that you have while if say my. My daughter is sleeping next to me, I will fall asleep easy as well. So I think it is this intimacy. It doesn't need to be sexual intimacy, but it's like bodies in close contact. As the example that I gave of when the children were babies, then you have this intimacy, the skin to skin contact. The relevance of touch is undeniable, I would say.
- [61:58]
C
Absolutely. I mean when I still. My son is 9 and will sometimes snuggle and I'll fall asleep because it's just so comforting and warm and. And I think that that applies, you know, across all relationships. Right. If you feel comfortable, safe, warm, 10, touched, loved, I think that helps. Right.
- [62:16]
A
In.
- [62:16]
C
In so many ways are not fine sleep. We can quantify, but I think just overall we know longevity, sexual. But you know, the benefit of living longer is feeling connected with other human beings, and touch is such an important part of that.
- [62:30]
B
I agree. Yes.
- [62:32]
C
Yeah. I think, you know, you've done so much different work. You've sort of gone on different journeys to. To better understand sex. And. And so what's something that you thought. Thought when you started research, that now you sort of has really been, like, challenged by your research that you didn't think, you know, you're like. You were surprised to find.
- [62:52]
B
There were various aspects of my research that were surprising. But I think what I. Something that I touched upon already in our dialogue, that. That sex is natural, that sec. If the relationship is good. And my naivete, when I was younger and very early in this field, I always had the idea, unfortunately, that once the relationship is great, sex should be so as well, and that once you start working on it, it means it became mechanical. And now it cannot be fun anymore. So now I grew into understanding how untrue that was and. And how damaging this myth is really. Not. Not only in my research, but I. I think clinically, at every level. This is a very difficult myth to unlearn. Yeah.
- [63:51]
C
And I think a very important one to learn in general that, like, just because sex is not great initially with someone doesn't mean that you're not compatible. Like, you can learn to be good at sex together. And if someone's worth it, being with for a variety of other reasons, and it's worth working on that. And ultimately everyone will need to work on sex at some point in their life. Like, you're not just gonna have amazing, wonderful sex till you're 90 years old if you do nothing.
- [64:17]
A
Right.
- [64:17]
C
If you just, like, expect that sex will always be there. It won't, you know, like, you have to actually work at it.
- [64:23]
B
Effy. And I think related to this, I would also say that perhaps initially myself as well, I used to think that sex is really for the healthy and the young, and now I understand how wrong I was. Right. So we know that sex can be healthy, fun, and pleasurable, independent of age and difficulties in your physical abilities, and independent of any diagnosis one might have. So there's always ways how you can understand the habit of that particular individual to bring back the. The pleasure or. Or the connection with. With another person.
- [65:00]
C
Absolutely. And I know you told us a little bit about some of the research you're working on, but is there something else you're excited about that's coming in the near future?
- [65:08]
B
Another research line I'm very excited about is because we know how painful sex can be for so many women that do not consider themselves as having a sexual problem. We're trying to understand what is the, what the expectation of pain is doing to their body. So how they respond when they are expecting pain. Using conditioning paradigms and then unlearning this. What are the best strategies to unlearn this painful expectation. So that's one line I'm interested in. I'm also very excited about harnessing the power of sexual arousal in, in improving our well being. So you mentioned a few like pain, sleep, but also how to improve sexual cohesion and long term couples. I think that's essential like debunking these myths that are that sex needs to be spontaneous, that sex needs to be always great if the relationship is great, that if you don't change partner sex becomes automatically boring, that at some point we all merit couple couples stop having sex or pleasurable sex. I think these are all myths that just psychoeducation can actually go a long way. Right.
- [66:23]
C
I mean I think it's so important. I mean I really think that like in long term relationships people shut down, they're just like oh, I don't want sex, I just stop bothering me. And like I think there needs to be a focus on just being like open and receptive to being intimate. Like not just sex. I think it becomes like we separate sex from intimacy. Like the act of sex is for the pleasure of the, the higher sexual desire partner or the partner who wants it. But like at the end of the day it's intimacy, it's connecting. You don't actually have to have sex. And so I think it's like separating being intimate with your partner and like touching and being together. And not necessarily like just the focus on like oh, sex is this chore or this task you have to do.
- [67:09]
B
Exactly. And that's what we try to do in this creative, creative sex study that we have done with long term couples because we know there's quite some literature now on bedroom boredom. We understand that because sex becomes a task, as we're saying, there's no space for intimacy, for touching, for playing, for enjoying. And because of this, a lot of couples actually avoid kissing, avoid touching, touching because they feel oh, and then she or he would want more and then we will end. I have to do that, that task. So they eliminate the intimacy, even depleting these, the sexual activity as it's defined in the most reductionistic way, the penetration or the sexual act itself, they depleted from all the intimacy that is sex. Sex is not Just penetration. That's really. It's like I always say again, sex and food that it's like you go to a Michelin star restaurant and you say swallowing was great in that restaurant. Of course not. There's so much more to tell about the texture. Who are you dining with, the different items on the menu, but which we some somehow the less time we have, the less space we dedicate for erotic space, the quicker we want to do it. And then we eliminate all the nice things that you mentioned, this physical context. So we suggest really plan sex. So when you plan sex in your agenda, like you plan your gym session, I have for example, specific day where I go to the gym. Many times I feel like, oh, I don't want to go, I don't feel like it or I have a headache. But then I go and rarely I say, oh, I came to the gym and I didn't enjoy it. I always enjoy it. And every time I think oh, next week I'm going to go in for it. But that doesn't happen again. So there is this inertia sometimes. Now we're talking about gym, but this is very much similar are in a long term relationship when we're talking about sex. And some people might think if you plan sex in your agenda, it's ridiculous because you might not feel like it that day. But in reality, if you plan sex in your agenda, it doesn't mean that you have to end up with sexual intercourse or the full blown sexual activity, but you really make time for each other. When I give talks about like planning sex, I always get that question that say, but what if I don't feel like it on that day? Which makes sense. But I feel that if you make time not necessarily ending in the ultimate goal that you have, but just be naked in bed together or have a shower together or have a glass of wine together in bed, I don't know, like something intimate or cooking together, something fun, where you're touching, when you're enjoying each other, if you don't feel like having the full activity, but just being together will create the opportunity for a deeper sexual connection. Because once there is better connection, better intimacy, there will be more space for sex and better sexual. And when we start planning sex, generally the dialogue opens on I want more, I want better. So what are the turning offs? What are the turning ons for you? So once we are planning sex, it's not just no one starts planning sex just to do more sex. There's always the discussion of I want it better, I want it different or I like this and not that or let's try to go to a hotel or have a room or Again, debunking these myths that sex needs to always be great and spontaneous to be great can go a long way to improve our.
- [71:16]
C
And I don't, I don't know a single couple that is spontaneously sexual throughout their whole entire life. And it's amazing. I've not, I've yet to meet that person and I've seen, I mean I talk about sex all the time, so I don't know a single couple who's like literally I've had spontaneous sex for decades and it's always great, it doesn't exist.
- [71:35]
B
I want to meet that person too. As yet I've never met anyone. Definitely not my personal experience. Of course. Especially when your life becomes more and more demanding, you need to make, you need to create space. Otherwise there is no space for intimacy. And there is sex that you can do in a couple of minutes, but there really is intimacy and the whole play and, and of course you need time and space and you need not to have children around. And so I, I would find it very difficult to understand how not planning sex can actually work in a long term couple.
- [72:15]
C
So I want to ask you at the end of our podcast, we ask everyone four questions that they have to, that they answer and they can be about your life, they don't have to necessarily be about sexual. So what's one thing that you know now in life that you wish you.
- [72:29]
A
Had learned earlier, that you have time?
- [72:31]
B
I for example, live in the Netherlands and I feel I should have learned the language more fluently way early, earlier than I when I moved here. But recently one person told me, but you have time. And it's true, it was so, I mean it's so obvious. But someone saying you have time, give time to yourself and time in everything. Make time for your well being, make time for doing sports, in being in a sexual environment where you can let yourself go. So I think allowing yourself time that you don't get busy judging and being the worst self critic thinking I should have done better, better, I should have done this before. I don't have time for this or I don't deserve time for this. I think something that applies to my work but to my life in general. I would say allowing time is my biggest lesson at the moment. At least.
- [73:36]
C
It's a great one. It's a great one. I think we're always in a rush, but I always think like, okay, like we have, I mean at My age, I feel like I have decades left to do lots of things and, and what's the rush, right? Enjoy the journey to, to getting those, whatever those goals are. What is something that you have to do every single day?
- [73:58]
B
Drink coffee. Like a specific coffee, Double, double espresso. This is something I cannot live without and it's a moment I truly take time to enjoy.
- [74:08]
C
I love my morning coffee. I'm with you. What is a, what's a health hack or life hack you would share?
- [74:17]
B
Yeah, it would be unwise to say sports, but I think doing something sportive every day is very healthy at every level of your well being. It's not only for your physical health, but also for your sexual health, for your well being. So I think if you can do something every day that is fit, physical, enjoy the light outside, be outside, do something in your body. Especially for people like us that are very much in their heads, I think that would be my tip.
- [74:54]
C
Yes, absolutely. And, and you know, I think you, we touched on this earlier, but like, you know, in terms of even scheduling dates, I think there's this misconception that all dates are like dinner and a movie, you know? Right, right. That's like your standard date. And while dinner can be sensual, very often it's not. And I think like doing a physical activity, I mean, you could eat sensually, you could feed each other, it could be sensual.
- [75:16]
A
Right.
- [75:16]
C
But I think most often it's not. And, and I think that like doing a physical sport with your partner enhances arousal and you get the benefits of exercise. And so I think we need to rethink dates. Like dates can be going rock climbing or going for a walk or you know, know something other than just having dinner.
- [75:36]
B
This makes so much sense. And not planning dates in the evening when you're tired, exhausted of your full day and then you go and have a large meal. So your energy is going everywhere where it should not go for a good sexual activity. So I feel it's better to, if you had to plan a lunch or a dinner, go for an earlier lunch so then you have time to do something more physical. And then you're also more energized to be together. Because if you leave it for the last moment of the day, I think that's also why dates do not work. So I agree with you that changing this concept of dates would go a long way as well.
- [76:22]
C
It could be novel. Right. You could try new activities and then you're like, oh, already primed for something.
- [76:27]
A
More exciting in the bedroom.
- [76:29]
B
Totally. And as you said once it increases your arousal you trick your brain that like if you go for a horror movie so it's still a movie but because you are aroused in that movie it's like tricking your brain that it's quickly shift to sexual arousal because the arousal component it's still there and then the valence can quickly switch. So yes, I agree. I think we need to rethink dates.
- [76:55]
C
Yes. And if you couldn't be a psychologist and a researcher, what would you be?
- [77:01]
B
I would very much go for something related to psycho to physiotherapy like doing something with the body still working on pelvic floor and massages and yes, something along those lines. I had a question from my daughter recently this why I had to think then but now it was in my working memory.
- [77:26]
C
That's great. That's great. Well thank you so much. Oh also, where can people find you?
- [77:31]
B
So I work at the University of Groningen. So on the page of the university I publish the work we are currently working on and projects in the pipeline. But I also also have most of the things on my socials and especially work related things on LinkedIn. So I used I try to update LinkedIn with projects in the pipelines but also findings recent work that we are conducting at the moment.
- [77:58]
C
Yes, amazing. We'll link all of those in the description and thank you so much.
- [78:04]
B
Thank you so much again. It was a great honor to be with you.
- [78:08]
C
Thank you guys so much for joining me on today's episode of the Rename Maryland podcast.
- [78:12]
A
If you guys are enjoying the podcast, do me one solid favor. Subscribe. Follow Wherever you are listening or watching this, take three seconds and click that button because it makes a huge difference in letting the platforms know that hey, people like this content and we should.
- [78:27]
C
Keep pushing it out to new people.
- [78:29]
A
And I truly believe in what we're doing here in helping people achieve their best health possible. And hopefully you do too.
- [78:36]
C
And as always, you want to take.
- [78:37]
A
Care of yourself because you are worth it.