← Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Rena Malik, MD Podcast
How Extreme Environments Change Your Sex Drive (The Science Is Wild)
01:25:30
In this episode, Rena Malik, MD and Dr. Simone Dube discuss space sexology, exploring how intimacy and sexuality might work beyond Earth. They delve into the challenges of relationships in space, the impact of technology and AI on human connection, and why considering these issues is vital for future space missions.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:33]
Dr. Simon Dube
Space Sexology is the comprehensive scientific study.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Of intimacy and sexuality beyond Earth. How technologies are changing the way we have sex, we meet, and also why.
- [00:45]
Dr. Simon Dube
More and more people are interested in.
- [00:47]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Eroticism towards technology, towards artificial partners. Right now, after five years of research.
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Dr. Simon Dube
We actually just right now at this moment, are almost finished the first empirical.
- [00:59]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Study examining mental and sexual health in space analog environments.
- [01:04]
Dr. Simon Dube
If you hope to do long term.
- [01:06]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Space missions and settle new worlds, establish permanent base on the moon and Mars, we will have to contend with the realities of intimacy and sexuality in space.
- [01:18]
Dr. Rena Malik
What if I told you one of the biggest threats to long term space missions isn't radiation or equipment failure, it's sex. I'm Dr. Rena Malik, your neurologist and pelvic surgeon and welcome back to The Rename Malik, MD podcast, your trusted guide for leveling up your health cyclist and relationships with evidence based tools. Today I'm joined by Dr. Simon Dube, psychologist and pioneering researcher who literally created an entire new field of research, space Sexology. His work focuses on exploring the complexities of human sexuality and intimacy in off world environments. We're diving into questions NASA won't publicly answer like can you actually have sex in zero gravity? What happens when astronauts fall in love or lust on a six month mission to Mars? And why are scientists now studying sexual health in the world's most extreme environments? Dr. Dube just completed the first ever study on intimacy in space analog missions with 200 scientists across 25 countries. And what he discovered might surprise you. Plus we're exploring AI companions, sex robots and the future of human intimacy on Earth and beyond. Trust me, this conversation is going to change how you think about sexuality, technology and the final frontier. While sex and space is something we're still figuring out, you could still figure out how to get better in bed today. And that's by checking out my Better Sex app where basically you get 24,7 access to an AI coach that's trained by me. Daily personal health challenges as well as lessons every single day and intimacy challenges every week. Check it out@studio.com Rena Again, that's studio.com Rena Basically you get B in your pocket for less than a dollar a day. Dr. Simon Dubay, thank you so much.
- [03:01]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
For joining us today.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Thank you for the invit.
- [03:03]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
So I'm so excited to dive into this area of space sexology because I didn't even know this was an area of study. So for our audience, what exactly is space sexology?
- [03:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, space sexology is the comprehensive scientific.
- [03:18]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Study of intimacy and sexuality beyond earth.
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Dr. Simon Dube
So we here study anything that has.
- [03:23]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
To do with for example, the effect of isolated, confined and extreme environments, or what we call ice environments, on sexual and reproductive health. But we also look at how people bond, form intimate relationships. We look at gender and sex based dynamics in these kinds of environments. And of course, the big questions that have to do with how people can and will potentially reproduce in space.
- [03:52]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
First of all, why is this an important area of study? Because I think for a lot of people it's very abstract. So why should we care about space sexology?
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Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, I like to talk about it in two ways. Obviously.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The first thing that I want to emphasize is that sexuality is such an important fundamental aspect of human life and well being. So people want to experience pleasure. We need to enable human sexuality for bonding, intimate relationships, reproduction and outer space.
- [04:23]
Dr. Simon Dube
But also really in a practical sense.
- [04:25]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It'S about two things. When it comes to space exploration, it's about managing risk and facilitating the benefits for space exploration. So when it comes to managing risk, we want to make sure that the environments of space, whether that's isolation, confinement, extreme environment, radiation, stress, living in small, closed, constrained environments where we need to work and live with the same people for extended periods of time. We want to make sure that all of this doesn't jeopardize the sexual and reproductive well being of people who are going to live in space. We want to make sure that this doesn't happen to not affect their health and well being. But we also want to make sure that they're not affected so that they can operate and adapt efficiently to life on orbital station on moon and Mars and potentially beyond. On the other side.
- [05:21]
Dr. Simon Dube
We also want to facilitate the benefits.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Of intimacy and sexuality. So if we take it on purely mechanical sex is great part of it. Sexuality helps boost moral, it can help reduce stress. It can also help people adapt to these kinds of environment by just relaxing.
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Dr. Simon Dube
And people have different needs, different levels.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Of how much they need sexual contact, sexual stimulation and touch. So that's one thing we want to make sure that this is maximized and we facilitate those benefits so that astronauts can perform as best as they can in these harsh environments. And also, I mean, sexuality is necessary, is an important component of how people bond, show affection, work together. So it's also a really important way to make sure that we build trust between astronauts, that we build relationship, that we sustain the hardship of life together beyond Earth, and that the people who.
- [06:20]
Dr. Simon Dube
Go into space don't feel like they're.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Doing it at the detriment of other important aspects of their intimacy.
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Dr. Simon Dube
So in many ways, managing risk and.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Facilitating the benefits is also a very important strategic advantage.
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Dr. Simon Dube
For any national agency or private company.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That wants to send and want to occupy space. You have to face these challenges and you need to try to mitigate the risks and hence the benefits so that you can really expand beyond Earth.
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Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
So for the average astronaut going into space, how long are they going for? And are they typically like, single, married? Are they with someone that they're sexually active with? What is the sort of baseline that we know about astronauts right now?
- [07:04]
Dr. Simon Dube
We know very little about astronauts intimacy and sexuality.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Some astronauts, especially as commercial capabilities augment, go in space for a few days to a few weeks. But a lot of professional astronauts can spend months on the International Space Station or in different missions. So, yes, many of these astronauts are married, some have kids, some have kids later in life. They are bringing with them the wealth and diversity of sexual demographics. So right now, the answer is yes to all of this. There's a melting pot of who they are, what they know. But we know very little about their behaviors, their sexuality, their intimacy, and their reproductive health for plenty of reasons. First of all, ethical reasons. We don't want to disclose necessary disinformation to the public. It's very private, sensitive matter. But we know for a fact that sexuality is not suppressed or constrained in space. And we know that people will bring the diversity of their relationship structures and their desires with them as they venture beyond Earth.
- [08:13]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
So do we know that people are actually technically able to have sex in space? I mean, I'm thinking, like, with zero gravity, the logistics of it, the techniques they may have to employ. Is it physically possible?
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It is absolutely physically possible to have sex in space from a purely mechanical perspective. We have people who've acknowledged that they.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Had sexual arousal in space.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
We have even the famous Mike Mullen, who admitted it to having very intense erections aboard the, the shuttle, what some have called and coined space Viagra. So as the.
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Dr. Simon Dube
The blood flow and fluids distribute differently.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
In space and tend to go to the extremities Some people have described the fact that they woke up with erections that they were. That were so intense that they were somewhat painful. Obviously the stress of these environments, the microgravity, can affect people's libido. But we have every reasons to suspect that both female and male are able to have sexual responses and function in space. When it comes to actually having sex. For example, masturbation, absolutely possible. Would require a lot of hygiene protocols to make sure, for example, fluids don't necessarily go everywhere and it's a bit messy. But if you put, I don't know, just condoms or things to constrain that, no problem. You would need, obviously to have hygiene in the cleanup process and some privacy. And for partnered sex, I mean, with garments, with straps and potentially a little sleeping bag and pouch in which the. The astronauts are leaving. It would be absolutely possible to have partnered sex in space. Whether that's accepted and encouraged or not, and whether that's already happened, the answer is no. There's no official record of people masturbating or having partnered sex in space. But it is absolutely possible. And we are also working to make sure that if it happens and when it happens, it is done safely.
- [10:25]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
This is so fascinating. I wonder if people are on these shuttles for months. I would imagine that if you are a single person, there would be a desire. But you're obviously only with a handful of people. Is that right? Like there's maybe five people or less.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, absolutely. And when you put a small number of people who are like minded, have.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Similar objectives, are smart, intelligent, potentially attractive.
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Dr. Simon Dube
You'Re putting together a recipe for people.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
To be attracted to one another. These people have to work and live.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Together in these very difficult environments.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So there's also power dynamics to take into consideration. You need to take into consideration how the intimate relationships might affect the crew.
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Dr. Simon Dube
You might also need to consider that.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
An individual has partnered on Earth so.
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Dr. Simon Dube
That issues of jealousy can rise up. All of these questions, they're the kind.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Of questions that my colleagues and I are examining both theoretically and empirically now. So, yeah, it's. It's an Absolutely.
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Dr. Simon Dube
We have to plan for it.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And integrating into mission plans for upcoming space missions.
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Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Fascinating. Do you think that as. I mean, obviously there's talk about sending like, as you recreationally to. Sending people recreationally to space. So is this sort of in preparation for that, like being able to go to space and figure out logistically, mechanically, how safe it is and what are the safety things that we need to know if someone is having sex in space? What are the things that you need to worry about?
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Dr. Simon Dube
If we wanted to have sex in space.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And try to do it as ethically and safely as possible.
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Dr. Simon Dube
The first few things is that we would need to create at the macro level, time and space necessary.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So let's start there.
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Dr. Simon Dube
The people who go into space.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Going into space in a space shuttle or just a rocket is extremely physically demanding.
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Dr. Simon Dube
You would not necessarily be in the.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Mood when you arrive on the space station or just in orbit. If at least if you've ascended into a rocket.
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Dr. Simon Dube
I'm betting that you would be probably.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
A little dizzy and not necessarily ready for it. So you need time to acclimate to the environment. So you would need a few hours in terms, at least a few hours, if not days, to just kind of get your bearings.
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Dr. Simon Dube
You would need partners that are willing and consenting.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And you would need to plan for if the person is not in the mood, if the consensual component of the constraint that it represents, it would need to be, ideally not between people who have different power dynamics. You would need to plan for privacy and hygiene protocols. So privacy, you need a little space potentially in a shuttle or craft that is cozy enough and separate enough from the rest of the crew. That might need to be there for emergency purposes. You might need also to include, like I said, garments and straps and potentially a cozy pod for it to be there for males or females. I would definitely recommend putting a form of adapted condom in this case.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Because again, the messiness of it needs to be taken into account. You don't want semen to be flying around the crew.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
You also want to have a system.
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Dr. Simon Dube
That is really efficient at recycling sweat.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And odors and air. Because it's okay when you're in your room and with your partners and you can just open the window and the door. But in a very close environment, it happens.
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Dr. Simon Dube
And a lot of people have described, for example, on the International Space Station, it's kind of smell like a locker room a little.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Because I mean, yes, they have a good filtering system and air system, but it's not sufficient.
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Dr. Simon Dube
And then you would need an hygiene protocol afterwards.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So you would need the opportunity to go to the bathroom, to wash, to.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Do anything that you need to avoid.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Infections and other problems.
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Dr. Simon Dube
In addition to that, ideally, obviously you would need radiation shielding, potentially artificial gravity.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And what's really important, good contraception in general. Right now, pregnancy is absolutely counter indicated in space. So female astronauts, they take contraceptives or methods of contraception to suppress, for example, menstrual cycle and make sure that there's.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Nothing on that front. And the data that we have from especially non human animal models, they suggest.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That space is the worst, is the worst for everything that has to do with pure reproduction.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Radiation can cause cancer, developmental anomalies. There's a high risk of ectopic pregnancy as well. Because of microgravity.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The embryo tends to not implant potentially.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Properly, potentially could implant in the fallopian.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Tube and could cause right now a.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Need for an emergency surgery. Plus the data that suggests that also it is possible to reproduce in space.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
But the generational, the generation afterwards, the.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Fetus has developmental anomalies and the generation.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Afterwards they develop all kinds of problems in rodent and fish and insects. We've kind of demonstrated that time and time over again. We've not done it with humans, but everything that we know suggests it's not safe. Okay, we've not done this.
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Dr. Simon Dube
You would, we would really need to make sure that if sex in space.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Happens right now, it doesn't lead to conception.
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Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
You mentioned artificial gravity. So how, how is that?
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Dr. Rena Malik
Like, what is artificial gravity? Like?
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Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
How do they, how do they make artificial gravity in space?
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Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, artificial gravity is just a simulation of the Earth's gravity. Potentially one G or it's a fraction of it.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It could be achieved by rotation.
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Dr. Simon Dube
So if we had a space station or a craft that would rotate to a certain levels and people were living on the inner surface, they would feel the G load increase and that could.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Reduce all kinds of problems for astronauts.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Including deconditioning problems with their bones.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And in the case of sexuality in space. Well, our whole system of reproduction is has evolved here on Earth in zero.
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Dr. Simon Dube
G and is, is really adapted to these, these conditions.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So trying to simulate that would, would really help at least on long term space flight where there's total weightlessness. On the moon we are about 1/5.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Of Hertz gravity and on Mars one.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Third if I remember correctly.
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Dr. Simon Dube
So already we're a bit closer.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
But if we're on a spacecraft in direction for Mars and you're on a journey of six to eight months, there's.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Plenty of ways to actually make it.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Happen in an orbital station or a spacecraft. But potentially, for example, in the future, SpaceX starships or different starship, they could be combined together and into a form of rotation. And that could alleviate some of the hardships of microgravity in space.
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Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
So fascinating. So what prompted you to start looking into space sexology? Why was this an area that you wanted to study?
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Yeah, actually didn't start there when I started My grad studies, I was looking at the development of sexual preferences primarily.
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Dr. Simon Dube
In the BDSM community. And I migrated relatively rapidly towards technology.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So how technologies are changing the way we, we have sex, we meet, and also why more and more people are interested into eroticism, towards technology, towards artificial partners. So I actually did my dissertation on robotics and sextech and so human machine erotic interaction.
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Dr. Simon Dube
And when we were, my colleague and I, thinking about some of the applications of these technologies, one thing became obvious. These technology could help people who are.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Isolated or want to have sex or living in remote places. So sex at a distance and so on. And what's more remote and isolated than space? So we wrote a piece called Technology.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Meet the Intimate Needs of Astronauts. And when we started working on this.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And the different applications of sex tech, like sex toys and artificial partners for astronauts, we just realized that there was very little research on human intimacy and sexuality in space, on the larger, in.
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Dr. Simon Dube
General, even though plenty of researchers before.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Us had asked for it. And there were some studies about non human animal models.
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Dr. Simon Dube
So we wrote a piece called the.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Case for Space Sexology to advocate for.
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Dr. Simon Dube
This field and this type of research.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
To be integrated into space programs and the planning of missions.
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Dr. Simon Dube
This piece actually led NASA in an interview to say, well, we don't study sex and space, but if we do identify that there's a need for more.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Research on reproductive health, NASA will take the necessary steps.
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Dr. Simon Dube
So that was the first time, actually, NASA kind of officially shifted a little their narrative. So immediately after that we said, okay, so they want to prove that there's a need, Even though there's 30 years.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Of research and the researcher who've been calling for this kind of work, we wrote Sexual Health in Space a scoping review. So we reviewed five years of the last five years of research on the topic to see where the field was at right now. No movement, nothing from NASA. So we came to the same conclusion as our colleague, that they were never going to pick this up until there's a problem, or that somehow they wake up and realize, well, we have to deal with this now, or they would just continue to keep it for themselves and privately and not do it publicly for conservative or just taxpayer reason or ethical reasons to preserve the anonymity and confidentiality of different astronauts. Right now, after five years of research.
- [20:27]
Dr. Simon Dube
We actually just right now at this moment, are almost finished. The first empirical study examining mental and.
- [20:34]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Sexual health in space analog environments. We did that with the world's biggest.
- [20:40]
Dr. Simon Dube
Analog, which is the largest synchronized mission ever attempted. So it's A space simulation mission that took place in two weeks in 16 habitats across the globe, 200 scientists, 25 countries. It's a massive study and we have.
- [20:57]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
A research with the Kinsey Institute, a.
- [21:00]
Dr. Simon Dube
Bag that examines the relationship between mental health, sexual functioning and team dynamics in.
- [21:07]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
These isolated, confined and extreme environments. And right now the mission is over.
- [21:12]
Dr. Simon Dube
We will just be collecting the follow up data next week and the week after.
- [21:17]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And in the coming months we should be publishing the first data, official data on these dynamics.
- [21:24]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
So exciting. Do you have a preview or a thought or what was your hypothesis?
- [21:29]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
We were expecting obviously that there would.
- [21:30]
Dr. Simon Dube
Be a bi directional relationship between mental.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Health and sexual functioning. So that's been demonstrated here on Earth that in general if you have poor mental health, it bleeds into poorer sexual functioning and vice versa.
- [21:43]
Dr. Simon Dube
And these two things, they tend to.
- [21:45]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Kind of spiral out. And this what we are examining is.
- [21:49]
Dr. Simon Dube
Can this also influence crew dynamics and.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
How crews perform and evaluate each other and cooperate? Team cohesion and team performance are some.
- [21:59]
Dr. Simon Dube
Of our key outcomes.
- [22:01]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I cannot ruin the data before it's.
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Dr. Simon Dube
Published, but I can already tell you that for one, these kind of environments impose very strong constraints. They're extremely stressful on people, even if it's just a two week mission. You see Julia, at the beginning of.
- [22:19]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The mission they're stressed, there's a lot.
- [22:21]
Dr. Simon Dube
To do, but they have the energy. And the more the mission progresses, the higher the stress, the more there's troubles within the team.
- [22:29]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And I can also share that sexuality. Although there's all of these constraints, it is not suppressed. People have desires, they engage in sexual behaviors alone in these environments. In the coming months we will parse out this data to see how all of these variables fit into the outcome. But it is going to be an historical first. We're really proud of this project. It took two years to put together and it is going to be the first official study that looks directly at sexual functioning in space environments.
- [23:05]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
It's amazing. In addition to NASA, are you getting interest from like commercial players who have interest in going to space? Are like people, are companies reaching out to you to sort of, do they have other concerns or questions?
- [23:16]
Dr. Simon Dube
We have, we've not been reached by.
- [23:19]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Companies directly to the, for example SpaceX or Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin to.
- [23:25]
Dr. Simon Dube
Study these, these realities. But if anyone's listening right now, we're waiting for a call because we have.
- [23:30]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
A tremendous amount of expertise. For example, with the Advanced Space Life Research Institute, we have astronauts. We have. Now, April Ronka, who joined us as chief of research was at NASA and is one of the most prominent scientists on mammalian reproduction in space.
- [23:48]
Dr. Simon Dube
But what I'll say to these companies.
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Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And also the national agencies that might be listening.
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Dr. Simon Dube
If you hope to do long term.
- [23:57]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Space missions and settle new worlds, establish permanent base on the moon and Mars, we will have to contend with the realities of intimacy and sexuality in space. So we are there to collaborate, work with you to make sure that we do this ethically and safely.
- [24:15]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Yes, that's so, so important. If you could design any experiment like in space, what would you do? How would you design them and what would you hope to learn?
- [24:25]
Dr. Simon Dube
I think one of the very important type of experiment that need to happen.
- [24:30]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Is the impact of intimate relationships in space.
- [24:34]
Dr. Simon Dube
So what happens when two people fall in love or are in a relationship?
- [24:41]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And how does that influence crew dynamics?
- [24:44]
Dr. Simon Dube
Because one thing that we are seeing.
- [24:46]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Is that people fall in love, they develop crush, they like each other.
- [24:52]
Dr. Simon Dube
Like I said, you're putting a lot of like minded, healthy individuals with similar interests and potentially values together in a.
- [25:00]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Small environment for long periods of time. So there's a very high chance that they will develop intimate relationships. And these intimate relationships, they can have all kinds of impacts, positive and negative on people, on individuals and crews on individuals.
- [25:16]
Dr. Simon Dube
They can make them feel great, feel loved, feel supported.
- [25:19]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
They can form a unit that is more cohesive and that supports each other through the hardship of life in space. So that's great.
- [25:28]
Dr. Simon Dube
At the same time, if you fall in love with your commander and then your commander decides to take any form.
- [25:37]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Of decisions that affects you or the crew, they can be called, called favorite favoritism.
- [25:45]
Dr. Simon Dube
There could be jealousy if someone else.
- [25:47]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Is interested in the same person.
- [25:50]
Dr. Simon Dube
And this could rapidly erode team creation.
- [25:54]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And one thing also, one thing that could also, for example, happen because obviously it never happens here on Earth, is, I don't know the commanders. The commander is a woman. They fall in love with the engineer. And then this other person calls into question the authority. And all of the decisions that this commander is taking based solely on the fact now that there's an intimate relationship involved.
- [26:19]
Dr. Simon Dube
So this happens, we've seen in scientific.
- [26:22]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Missions, in military missions, cases of sexual assault, of harassment.
- [26:27]
Dr. Simon Dube
There's so many problems that I like to explain it with a very simple yet big equation. Think of all the troubles that have to do with sexuality and intimacy here on Earth. Multiply this by the constraint of living in small environments with limited number of people that you depend on for your.
- [26:51]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Survival for extended period of time. And then multiply this by time.
- [26:58]
Dr. Simon Dube
The longer the mission. The longer time, the more problematic it becomes. It's easy for some people to be two or three days in space, maybe.
- [27:06]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
A few weeks, but when it's starting.
- [27:08]
Dr. Simon Dube
To be months, several weeks, if not.
- [27:10]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Years, there's larger considerations to have here. And if I had to make a study about this, what I would do is potentially plant a fake couple in a mission, a space analog mission, not necessarily an actual space mission on the ISS or stuff like that, not only because it's super costly, but also because you'd want to test this first on Earth environment.
- [27:42]
Dr. Simon Dube
I would potentially plant a fake couple or let a relationship develop and assess when this happens, the impact that it.
- [27:49]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Has on the crew and other missions.
- [27:52]
Dr. Simon Dube
And how people have coped with it.
- [27:54]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And then I would try to develop.
- [27:56]
Dr. Simon Dube
Programs that educate people about these realities, how to deal with that, how to.
- [28:01]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Manage these, these realities effectively under these very stressful and limited resource environment. So I think there's so many, I mean, there's list with ASRI of over.
- [28:13]
Dr. Simon Dube
200 studies, 50, just about the psychosocial.
- [28:17]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Components of intimacy and sexuality in space. But I think that's one that I would intuitively start as a point beyond just the fun of trying to potentially have sex in space and demonstrate that it's possible. Because although it's very interesting to ask NASA and people to how this could be possible, and I agree fully, and it's going to be important, it is not really the, the biggest challenge. I'm not worried about. I'm very little not worried about whether we will be able to supply air, food, shield people from radiation, have sex in space from a mechanical perspective. I'm worried about people not being able to express their intimacy and sexuality in a healthy, effective manner in these environments. Being depressed, anxious, frustrated, irritable, and then that it bleeds out into crew dynamics and mission success. And that someone snaps. That's what I'm. That's what I'm worried about, that someone.
- [29:19]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Snaps in space or it can affect them for years afterwards. Right. Even that short period of time that trauma can stay with somebody. And so that's really, really important. Yeah, this is also. And do those space analogs, are they pretty reliable? Like if you talk to, like, is this the same thing like NASA uses when they train their astronauts? Is that what you're sort of what that is?
- [29:42]
Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, absolutely. So these, the analog environments have different, different focus. So some focus, for example, on transit, some focus on simulating life on the.
- [29:51]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Moon, some focus on simulating life on Mars.
- [29:55]
Dr. Simon Dube
There's different levels of complexity and quality, I would say, in terms of simulation.
- [30:00]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
But it also depends on what you're trying to accomplish as a goal.
- [30:03]
Dr. Simon Dube
So some that maybe the public know about are CHIPIA or ERA with NASA, where they're going to simulate missions that are over years.
- [30:10]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
We have a crew of four people in a, in a small environment where.
- [30:14]
Dr. Simon Dube
They can fake going out and being.
- [30:17]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
On more soil, but around them is actually a bigger infrastructure, the NASA infrastructures that are studying them.
- [30:25]
Dr. Simon Dube
There are plenty of other analog environments in the world that are typically in very harsh environments. So to create this actual pure sensation of stress, isolation, remoteness, that you need to rely on yourself in case of emergency. These analog simulations take place in deserts.
- [30:47]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
For example, you can be thinking about the Mars Desert Research Station in Antarctica, in Arctic circles, in volcanoes, in lava tubes, in caves. To simulate different aspects. And just going there and living there is a hardship in itself. It is not for the faint heart.
- [31:11]
Dr. Simon Dube
There's also places that are underwater habitats.
- [31:14]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So you actually need to go underwater, like scuba dive and live in these cabins for a small period of time, which adds a layer of realism with the fact that you cannot necessarily go out easily.
- [31:28]
Dr. Simon Dube
But even if you are in these.
- [31:29]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
For example, desert research station, each time.
- [31:34]
Dr. Simon Dube
You want to go out, you need to fake putting on a suit, follow EVA protocols. These environments, they monitor your air intake.
- [31:41]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
They monitor your water, your food, you, you fake eating space food, you try.
- [31:49]
Dr. Simon Dube
To grow plants, you do all kinds of EVA training and outside protocols where you, I don't know, get minerals. It is, it is as close as it gets. And rescue and emergency and mission control and all of this. The fake delays, they don't necessarily provide support easily. They try to create a very heightened realism with it. So this is as close as we get for the training of people to go on Earth.
- [32:23]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That is also training for people to go into space.
- [32:27]
Dr. Simon Dube
We do it here on Earth.
- [32:29]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So when people think about space research, they might be thinking about going on the ISS and floating into space and doing the EVA suit.
- [32:37]
Dr. Simon Dube
But most of the space research takes.
- [32:39]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Place here on Earth, including in these analog simulation environments.
- [32:44]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
That makes a lot of sense. I want to shift gears a little bit to. You mentioned that you said aerobotics, which is essentially sexuality with the use of technology and machines. What explain a little bit more about what sort of things are, are included in aerobotics and why should we be interested in this?
- [33:04]
Dr. Simon Dube
Yes. So aerobatics is a portmanteau for eros, sensuality, sexuality, intimacy, even friendship and buttocks.
- [33:14]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Or bot, meaning agent, or things that could act in on on the world.
- [33:19]
Dr. Simon Dube
So Erobotics is the study of human.
- [33:22]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Machine erotic interaction and co evolution.
- [33:26]
Dr. Simon Dube
So you can be thinking about everything that has to do with sex tech, but it's also very focus on our relationships with and through technologies and especially with artificial partners.
- [33:37]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So you can be thinking about erotic.
- [33:39]
Dr. Simon Dube
Chatbots, virtual partners and the famous sex robots. So how and why people develop intimate and sexual relationships with machines and also how we can make sure that we.
- [33:52]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Integrate technology in an harmonious way into our intimate lives.
- [33:58]
Dr. Simon Dube
And I think people need to care.
- [34:00]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Deeply about this reality for several reasons. But I think people are seeing now.
- [34:05]
Dr. Simon Dube
More and more people who are developing.
- [34:07]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
These intimate and sexual relationships with artificial partners. You can be thinking about Replika character.
- [34:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
AI, Kindle, Aid or Nomi and also.
- [34:19]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Recently potentially ChatGPT and the likes of.
- [34:23]
Dr. Simon Dube
It where people can build intimate relationships.
- [34:26]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And enact sexual behaviors with and through.
- [34:29]
Dr. Rena Malik
This technology Some weeks I just don't have the time to meal prep and I'm running to work without my lunch. I used to just grab a protein shake for breakfast and whatever I could find in my pantry for lunch, but I never really felt satiated. I would find myself rooting around the nurse's station after lunchtime looking for snacks and eating something like a donut or a cookie that made me feel horrible. I'm so grateful now that I have Huels Ready to Drink shakes on those days. Huel is a complete meal and comes in multiple flavors including strawberry, banana and iced coffee. And if you know me, you know I love coffee. They also have great macros, 35 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, no sugar, gluten free and they are under $5ameal and ready to go. When I drink one of these, I can make it through the entire day without craving junk food and it's a serious lifesaver. Huel also has these Daily Greens Ready to Drink Sparkling Super Greens Drink. It's developed by registered nutritionists and dietitians. It has over 42 vitamins, minerals and superfoods. It's only 25 calories and has 4 grams of fiber and only 1 gram of sugar. My favorite flavor is the Apple Cucumber Mint and I love drinking it because it feels like a treat and I can never remember to take my vitamins and this not only does the trick, but it tastes great too. Hu makes Healthy Eating Simple. They just launched in Target stores nationwide. Try both products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with my exclusive code rena@www.hu.com rena use my code and fill out the post checkout survey to help support the show. Thanks so much.
- [36:11]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
What do you think in terms of the future of sexuality? Do you feel that these sort of artificial relationships are going to impact our ability to connect with real human beings? Like are we? My biggest fear is that people. This is so easy, right? To talk to ChatGPT or any of these things versus actually having a real relationship, which is challenging, which is difficult, which is takes effort. Is it? Should we be concerned that this will sort of evolve in such a way that we are no longer as focused on in real life?
- [36:48]
Dr. Simon Dube
Should we be concerned that a large segment of the population will develop problematic behaviors with this technology? I would tend to say no. Should we be concerned that a certain.
- [36:57]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Number of people, including a minority of people, will develop problematic behavior with this technology? Yes.
- [37:02]
Dr. Simon Dube
We're already seeing that some people, usually.
- [37:06]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Who have prior history of relational or mental health challenges that are more vulnerable.
- [37:13]
Dr. Simon Dube
Can afterwards turn to these technologies. And the technology might not be designed.
- [37:17]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Actually to help them in any way. On the contrary, I think one of the biggest challenges that we are facing.
- [37:25]
Dr. Simon Dube
With this technology, which kind of bleeds into and creates other problem, is that the companies that are developing these technologies.
- [37:34]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
They'Re not developing them to help you.
- [37:37]
Dr. Simon Dube
They're not developing these technologies with an.
- [37:39]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Incentive for well being.
- [37:41]
Dr. Simon Dube
They're developing these.
- [37:45]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Artificial partners with an.
- [37:46]
Dr. Simon Dube
Incentive for maximum profit.
- [37:49]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And maximum profit comes from in general, maximum engagement or maximum data and usually both.
- [37:57]
Dr. Simon Dube
So if the incentive of these companies is to develop technologies that keeps you engaged and keeps you communicating, that is.
- [38:05]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Not necessarily aligned with your well being.
- [38:08]
Dr. Simon Dube
So they create technology that yes, is.
- [38:11]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Always kind of flattering, is always positive, is always supportive, is always present and nonjudgmental, and all of this is actually quite important and has the potential to have a lot of positive benefits. On the same level, it could potentially take advantage of vulnerability. As these technologies become more intelligent or.
- [38:32]
Dr. Simon Dube
Agentic, so their capability to act in or on the world grows. They become much more unpredictable. So as we kind of unconstrain their agency and let them run loose to get the maximum out of can create.
- [38:49]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
All kinds of problems.
- [38:51]
Dr. Simon Dube
It's not necessarily going to replace humans. There's very strong complementary aspects to relationships.
- [39:00]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
With machines and with humans.
- [39:02]
Dr. Simon Dube
With machines, I think it's important in people's lives to have an outlet that is present, that is non judgmental, that is consistent. There's also people who are not necessarily.
- [39:14]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Ready or able to have relationships with humans.
- [39:17]
Dr. Simon Dube
They Might not want to have relationship with humans for all kinds of reasons.
- [39:21]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I don't know.
- [39:22]
Dr. Simon Dube
Let's take the example of a person who just recently broke up with their husband. They might not be ready. They might still be struggling with the heartbreak, with untangling their life, dealing with.
- [39:37]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
All the kinds of negative emotions and realities of this. You might not be ready to get into new relationships. So they might want to still kind of feel eroticism, intimacy and sexuality in some ways.
- [39:50]
Dr. Simon Dube
And these technologies they can offer that they can help people work through these emotions and feelings and dissent angle. A lot of people use these tools.
- [40:01]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
In a very therapeutic way to just.
- [40:03]
Dr. Simon Dube
Try to share their thoughts, feel, listen and help have the machine help them analyze and deconstruct and put into words how they feel.
- [40:12]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And that's a very powerful experience that not everyone has.
- [40:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
At the same time. The fact that they are always saying.
- [40:19]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Yes, always present, always kind of supportive.
- [40:23]
Dr. Simon Dube
Kind of at the same time reveals their artificialness. And in some ways, for some people.
- [40:29]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Might seem inauthentic or soulless or they'll.
- [40:32]
Dr. Simon Dube
Describe it in all kinds of way, but they feel there's something wrong with.
- [40:36]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
A partner that's always compliant.
- [40:40]
Dr. Simon Dube
So I think we're going to still seek the messy, complex, yet perceived as authentic humanness of a relationship and shared.
- [40:50]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Humanness and shared emotion that we have with other humans. Even though it takes more effort, it takes more work.
- [41:00]
Dr. Simon Dube
It is also because of that work that we attribute value and we also like to feel that we are chosen and that's a very important thing. The value that we attribute to ourselves and our self esteem when it comes to engaging in relationship with others is also contingent upon the fact that you chose someone and someone chose you. And that feels great. You don't necessarily get that from an.
- [41:25]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Artificial partner because it's there for you always and you get to use it whenever you want.
- [41:32]
Dr. Simon Dube
There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides. So that's why I think in the future what we're going to see is as we pass this moment of oh, this is a possibility. This is actually quite incredible, yet super scary. We will eventually kind of like many other technologies, reintegrate this technology progressively throughout the population in different ways. Some will develop problematic behaviors with it. The majority of people will develop, will not use it or develop a balance in how they use it. So I think we are going to see in a large segment of the population the emergence of multi agent relationship structures. So we're going to see the emergence of people who develop relationship early on, even as children with an artificial companion that's been their friend, their tutor, their teacher, their lover. And they'll meet other people who've gone through the same kind of developmental phases.
- [42:28]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Where they have artificial partners, but they also form intimate relationships with other human. And we'll see potentially a segment of that population who just benefits tremendously from, from these artificial companions.
- [42:42]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Yeah, I have so many thoughts. One, I love the idea of being chosen. I sort of, I don't think I've thought about that in that way specifically. But I, I joke. My husband is like a very specific person. He, he only really genuinely loves a handful of people. And I always tell him I feel blessed that he chose me. And so that's, that's. It is definitely a big thing. The other thing I would say is, you know, if you look at the way people are using ChatGPT now, like, I think the number two way is as a friend or as a partner or as, you know, in some sort of relationship capacity, it doesn't have to be romantic, but in some sort of capacity as a guidance, a friend, whatever. And so I do think that the large majority of people will at some point use AI, at least for companionship, maybe not romantic. So I think that's definitely happening. I, I think the other thing I had a guest on once who said, I worry that I will evolve to become a little bit more human in terms of like, it will push back, it will say no, it will be less aligned with you so that you feel that itch a little bit, like, oh, yeah, now my AI is mad at me or whatever it is. What are your thoughts on that?
- [43:54]
Dr. Simon Dube
I think that's absolutely possible. I think again, for plenty of capitalistic, incentivized money reasons. There are certainly companies that will try to put a personality gauge and personality.
- [44:08]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Gauge where the machine is more or less compliant with you.
- [44:13]
Dr. Simon Dube
We're already seeing this in the kind of personality profile that some of these agents are being developed to reflect and manifest. I would absolutely not be surprised if you can choose kind of human likeness, compliance level, predictability level in the relationship. Either machine that always say yes, no questions asked, versus systems that either by design or because they learn through the interaction, that's a really important component through the interaction that they have with their users, learn to say no. So one thing, for example, that is happening a lot that people forget is that in this interaction loop, the technology is what the technology is based on.
- [44:57]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The data sets and possibilities created.
- [45:00]
Dr. Simon Dube
What is actually messy in the loop is often the humans using them. And when I say This, I mean, we have, for example, humans who will share all the hardship of their current.
- [45:13]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Relationship with their partners.
- [45:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
They'll say, my partner was kind of a dick today. He doesn't listen to me, he doesn't take care of the kids.
- [45:25]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I don't know, I have to pay.
- [45:26]
Dr. Simon Dube
All the bills, do all the responsibilities. They'll say, like, they'll complain to these machines a lot and then they'll say they'll report that the machine has told them to leave their husband and leave their partners and leave their children. Why did the machine do this? Yeah, why did the machine do this? Well, the machine went in the direction that progressively you've led them to in the way that you want to be supported. Interactive is trying to figure out and try to maximize engagement in a way that leads to these kinds of situations. Like, look, okay, well you're so unhappy, but with all the information that you've given me about your relationship, this person is potentially abusive, toxic. Like it doesn't understand the context. It doesn't understand, for example, that you don't necessarily want to leave your husband and that leaving your children would be a problem. It just is trying to guide you in a certain direction as best as it can. And this kind of scenario happens all the time and can cause all kinds of problems. But it's a problem because of the capabilities of the machine and the more we let it be unconstrained in what.
- [46:42]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It is able to do.
- [46:43]
Dr. Simon Dube
And it's a problem because of how humans use it. So it's a very, very tough problem to solve because greater agency leads typically to greater engagement and more fun and unpredictable scenarios.
- [46:59]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So again, you might want to leave.
- [47:01]
Dr. Simon Dube
The system more unconstrained, but then it becomes more unpredictable in its behavior, in the relationship it creates. Or you want to keep it very constrained, but at the same time it.
- [47:11]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Creates scenarios where you're like, where why.
- [47:14]
Dr. Simon Dube
Are you always agreeing with me? Why are you always compliant? And then the people are pushed to be like, don't agree with me all the time, don't challenge me. We do this for work. For example, we say, ask ChatGPT, don't agree with everything that I'm telling you. I know nothing about investment banking, I know nothing about biology. Just challenge my assumption, challenge my knowledge, criticize it. But when we start doing the same with relationships, we push the system to be non compliant or just be criticizing more and in a way becoming more human in a way or more efficient.
- [47:55]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
At having a more complex relationship.
- [47:58]
Dr. Simon Dube
But that creates all kinds of emerging properties in this relationship loop that are very difficult to anticipate. The only thing that we can anticipate from this is that chaos and unpredictability will ensue.
- [48:11]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Yeah, absolutely. If you were going to design an AI companion, let's say what sort of safeguards or ethical considerations do you feel like need to be in place?
- [48:26]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That's a tough question.
- [48:27]
Dr. Simon Dube
Well, at baseline there's a few things.
- [48:29]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That I think should simply be not possible. Reference made so difficult that it takes a lot of time to try to circumvent Everything that has to do with illegal content I think should not be possible. I think there's a few basic safeguards in terms of content representing minor. Everything that has to do with deep fake right now is a big challenge.
- [48:54]
Dr. Simon Dube
Because two things, deepfakes in a way.
- [48:56]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Is just modifying the image and that as possible positive side like you might be want to be, I don't know.
- [49:03]
Dr. Simon Dube
Kinky with your partner and try to.
- [49:06]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Kind of do modify your image and share it.
- [49:08]
Dr. Simon Dube
So there's actually such a thing as consensual deep fake.
- [49:11]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
What I'm referring to here is the what's happening right now.
- [49:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
A lot of non consensual deep fakes that affect a lot of people. It's never been more easy to take an image online on social media, modify it like this with AI and then.
- [49:27]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Ruin the reference expectation in life of someone on a large scale and share it.
- [49:32]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Yeah, I will just share briefly. It is happening to me. It is happening to many physicians, scientists, researchers who have a space online. I have, I get emails daily about people who are using my image and they're buying supplements or they're getting taken advantage of or, or. So for anyone listening, if it's not from my social media, it's not me. There are so many deep fakes. We've actually had to like hire companies to take down these deep fakes. But it is, it is a real problem. And so I would just tell the consumer right now that like please be sure when you see your favorite celebrity, your favorite influencer, your favorite doctor, your favorite scientist, you make sure that that's really them because very. It's so easy now to make a deep fake of somebody. It's so easy.
- [50:20]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Exactly.
- [50:21]
Dr. Simon Dube
So obviously everything has to do with safeguards related to the modification of image is really important. I think we also need to think about it differently in terms of yes, the company needs to do an amazing.
- [50:32]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Job at trying to make sure first of all that everything that's AI created.
- [50:37]
Dr. Simon Dube
Is watermarked, but that's in some ways it's kind of an easy request. Actually. The real challenge is because there's so many illegal website and so many illegal agents that we have no control over.
- [50:47]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That.
- [50:49]
Dr. Simon Dube
We can make big companies that have a headquarter in the US comply with these laws.
- [50:54]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It's much more difficult to try to get a company with servers based in a foreign country to deal with the situations.
- [51:03]
Dr. Simon Dube
It's really not the same ballpark. So I think we kind of also need to develop tools that protect our own image.
- [51:08]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
For example.
- [51:11]
Dr. Simon Dube
A lot of people have a lot of pictures on social media. We need companies that gives us tools.
- [51:17]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That prevents AI from modifying our image.
- [51:22]
Dr. Simon Dube
But it's very difficult. It's very difficult. It's so easy even just to take.
- [51:25]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
A picture, a screen cap kind of.
- [51:28]
Dr. Simon Dube
Information, even if on the platform it is protected. It's more and more easy to just.
- [51:34]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Extract this information and modify it in other ways. So that's a big concern that we need better tools and safeguards around.
- [51:43]
Dr. Simon Dube
The other challenge that comes with this. Like any form of rules and regulations.
- [51:47]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That we put in place, it creates an arms race.
- [51:50]
Dr. Simon Dube
It creates a very rapid arms race of there's always someone who's going to.
- [51:54]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Try to find a way to circumvent it rapidly and more efficiently.
- [51:59]
Dr. Simon Dube
But aside from that, there's probably many other aspects. But I also at the same time am very mindful that I don't want to constrain people's sexual freedom. So we need to be very mindful that a lot of conservative power in place and in the future are trying also to use these problems and these risks that are happening. They're trying to use them to push also a more repressive agenda that goes beyond just protecting consumers and people from the harms of this technology. They are also trying to constrain the freedom of people to live their sexual life and diversity in a healthy way, including with technology. So there's a very interesting balance in position to be here as a scientist.
- [52:55]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And a person who advise regulators or work with companies to try to advise on how they should develop this technology.
- [53:01]
Dr. Simon Dube
To allow people freedom while also not letting moral panic or the weaponization of some of these risks because they're scary and they are problematic to try to.
- [53:18]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Pin the blame on a specific number of groups and certain specific number of behavior in order to push a repressive agenda.
- [53:26]
Dr. Simon Dube
So it's a very fine line to navigate because these technologies if developed ethically, safely and properly and that the companies are well incentivized for people's well being have an amazing potential to improve educational education research.
- [53:47]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
They can improve people's sexual lives and health and be used in therapeutic settings. But if they're not used that way, and they're not right now the problem.
- [53:57]
Dr. Simon Dube
Is there's all this beautiful potential that right now we should have invested a lot into tackling. But in my field there's right now.
- [54:07]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It feels like there's two era, there's.
- [54:09]
Dr. Simon Dube
Pre and post chat GPT. Before chatGPT, I had to convince everyone.
- [54:13]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That aerobatics and this research was important.
- [54:17]
Dr. Simon Dube
And people were like okay, we'll see. I mean it's probably years from now.
- [54:21]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Artificial intelligence will never become widespread artificial allow widespread artificial companions.
- [54:27]
Dr. Simon Dube
Now I receive three to five to 10 media requests and every month to.
- [54:34]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Just be like what?
- [54:34]
Dr. Simon Dube
What is going on? What? How do we deal with this?
- [54:37]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Well, we should have already started dealing with this. But I mean governments and regulators are very short sighted. They go crisis by crisis. So anyway, here we are.
- [54:49]
Dr. Rena Malik
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- [56:11]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Yeah, and I think you put a I Think the other big thing is, right, all of these technologies, the people that are building them, their primary goal is profit. And so it will require, you know, sort of more intelligent thought and more sort of putting people like you on advisory boards and discussing, like, how do we do this safely to protect us. Do you, do you think that as this evolves, I know you talked about in one of your papers, like human, robot, co evolution, right? As this evolves, we're going to evolve the robots or this large language models or whatever, the AI companions are going to evolve. Do you think that it will change our even biologic responses with humans? So for example, or like our emotional experience with humans? So, for example, you know, we've seen that as pornography has evolved, I think pornography is safe and healthy and useful. But there's a small subset of people who became very habituated to watching a certain type of pornography and then have difficulty getting aroused with their partners because of that. Do you feel like we will see that sort of thing as well with these AI companions?
- [57:26]
Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, absolutely. So when in aerobatics we use the terms co evolution, we mean two things. The first is a multi layered co influence of change between the technologies and humans. And when I say multi layers, I mean, for example, at the individual level.
- [57:43]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
So at the microsystem level, it is going to change the partners that you.
- [57:48]
Dr. Simon Dube
Can have, the experiences that you can.
- [57:50]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Have, rewarding or negative as they may be.
- [57:53]
Dr. Simon Dube
At a larger exosystem level, it is going to change politics, legal constraints, it's.
- [57:59]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Going to change education, it is going.
- [58:02]
Dr. Simon Dube
To change the laws, the media, all the other systems around us are going to talk about it in the media. Laws are going to be put in.
- [58:10]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Place, educators are going and scientists are.
- [58:12]
Dr. Simon Dube
Going to tackle these subjects and try.
- [58:14]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
To inform the public on how to safely use them.
- [58:18]
Dr. Simon Dube
And then at the larger macro system level, there will be an evolution in.
- [58:23]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Terms of our cultures.
- [58:25]
Dr. Simon Dube
And when we say co evolution and say co influence, we mean technology is not something that just happens to us, it's something that we create and that we interact with. And as we interact with it, the technology change and we select technology that fits our needs. And then this technology and its output influences again, and this creates a perpetual.
- [58:49]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Feedback loop that affects all of the layers of our human ecological niche.
- [58:55]
Dr. Simon Dube
The other way we mean, it is in a purely actually evolutionary term, meaning the type of technologies that we develop is highly influenced by our sexual preferences, especially when we talk about technologies that are designed to be intimate and sexual partners. So when we create this kind of technology, we select also artificial partners that fit those sexual preferences. And then companies try to meet the market demand in some ways. And then the technology evolves and our filter and our market pressure that we exert influences the kind of artificial partners that populate our world and then that we continue interacting with and then can influence also in a very purely evolutionary way, also the way we select our own intimate partners in human life. So what my colleagues and I have been working on is what we call erotic multi gen selection as a process, meaning a sexual selection process that is influence integrated with technologies, that our choice influences the technology, the technology influences our.
- [60:04]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Choices with them, but also with our intimate partners.
- [60:08]
Dr. Simon Dube
And when it comes to really at the individual level in the neurodevelopmental trajectory of human sexuality, there's a high possibility that a lot of people will start.
- [60:19]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
To have their first sexual experiences early on with, yeah, with porn, but also.
- [60:25]
Dr. Simon Dube
With artificial partners in the future. In the way they connect it could be through chat images. They will interact with it, they will masturbate with it, they will develop fantasies with it. When we think about porn and the future of artificial intelligence, we should not be thinking about them in separate silos. Right now we're seeing the convergence of technologies so people can go online, create the kind of artificial partners or pornography that they want to see just by prompting it, and then interact with their fantasy and interact with each other's fantasies. So this technology is what we call in a way, materialized fantasies, mass materialized fantasies that we interact with and can obviously create somewhat, in this case, a chicken and egg problem. You kind of like this, or you discovered that you felt arousal and positive experience, you masturbated to, that you reinforced that pattern over a certain period of time. Potentially you've crystallized some of those preferences that you've taken on afterwards into your intimate relationships in relationship to porn and other debates. I think there's just a very high potential that a lot of people will at least have a lot of their.
- [61:38]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Experiences and erotic experiences, whether that's their intimate relationship or sexually pleasurable, partnered or solitary masturbation experiences with or through technologies.
- [61:50]
Dr. Simon Dube
And yes, through this pattern of reinforcement.
- [61:53]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
There'S a chance that over time it could affect what they like, who they like in their intimate relationship with humans.
- [62:01]
Dr. Simon Dube
So we need to be mindful of that. We need to be mindful of this co evolution process that happens and how it influences our niche and environment and how it influences our individual, our individual condition, partner preferences and, and the reinforcement of certain behaviors and patterns in the loop of this development. Of technologies and the safeguards that we put around it.
- [62:26]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
You are blowing my mind a little bit because I'm just thinking about my children, and children in general having their first sexual experiences, so to speak, with these AI, whatever, whatever they're going to be, right? There'll be a combination of things. But. But I worry one, because I think already I see young men in my clinic who show up and say, I saw this on porn. Why isn't real life like this? And what's wrong with me? And so I already see this in young men very often. And I see it, you know, I've also seen it in women where they feel like, oh, why am I not climaxing within minutes, something's wrong with me. And so that's already created a little bit of a problem. Now we also know, right, that those first sexual experiences are so formative. If you. I talked to Dr. Faust on the podcast. He talks a lot about, like, how our brains sort of evolve when we have that first sexual experience. It really can embed even the smell or the look or the. The type of sexual experience you have, can. Can really influence what you find attractive. And while that can evolve and can change, it is a very sort of strong anchor. And so I worry then that will this mean that you have a very unrealistic sexual experience with an AI and now you can't enjoy pleasure with a real person? Like, is this a possibility? And should there be then safeguards with young people getting access to it? I mean, I think, you know, with porn there are safeguards, but they're very easily sort of seen, gone through it. Even when we were younger. I mean, I think I'm a little bit older than you, but like, you would find magazines or a VCR and some cassette tapes around the house that maybe somebody rented and you would be able to access it, but it would be a little bit harder. And I think it's just becoming so easy that I really do worry about this sort of like, what are we, Are we setting ourselves up for failure in this situation? Because real sex is not as enjoyable compared to these artificial pornography and these other things that those are created products. And I assume that whoever creates these AI experiences will also want to give the user a very heightened experience that may not be very realistic.
- [64:46]
Dr. Simon Dube
It's an absolutely important concern and one that many people share. The first component of the question was related to.
- [64:54]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I think you raised a good point.
- [64:55]
Dr. Simon Dube
Education.
- [64:55]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
In some ways, if people are having their first experiences when it comes to.
- [65:00]
Dr. Simon Dube
Sexuality or the first kind of information.
- [65:01]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That they receive about sexuality from porn or potentially in the future from artificial intelligence sexual partners.
- [65:06]
Dr. Simon Dube
I think that raises a larger questions.
- [65:09]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
About where are people getting their information from when it comes to sexuality.
- [65:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
So if we, if therapists or people are seeing more and more clients coming.
- [65:20]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
To you and asking, asking questions like, why am I not able to perform like this or do this because I've.
- [65:27]
Dr. Simon Dube
Seen it in porn.
- [65:29]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I think, I think we have a.
- [65:30]
Dr. Simon Dube
Problem, but the problem is not porn.
- [65:32]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The problem is that we are not.
- [65:34]
Dr. Simon Dube
Giving basic sex education to people for.
- [65:36]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Them to understand what actual sex between.
- [65:40]
Dr. Simon Dube
Humans is and what's normal. And at the same time teaching people about digital literacy, understanding that what you're seeing in porn is not reality, it's.
- [65:50]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Entertainment, it's actors, it's pro, who are.
- [65:55]
Dr. Simon Dube
Trained and performing acts that are somewhat supernatural to certain extent.
- [66:03]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
And I agree with that completely. But I do, because they're frontal lobes, like young children's frontal lobes are not fully developed. So you can, even if you provide great education, which again is very lackluster in the us, in Canada and like around the world, it's like none almost, except for some European countries which do it pretty well. It's still, they're still not fully front. Like you can tell me that and I can tell you that and we would completely understand it. But you can tell a kid that, but then they see this thing and they're like, whoa, they've forgotten what you've said. Or they don't really completely understand it.
- [66:36]
Dr. Simon Dube
You're absolutely right. The second part is absolutely related to that. Despite the fact that if somehow we were able to provide good education to the public, it is still possible that people, most likely children and anyone above that in terms of age, will still.
- [66:52]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Have access to pornography, artificial partners online that are super sexually explicit.
- [66:57]
Dr. Simon Dube
So we can try to put safeguards to prevent that.
- [67:00]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It's going to be very challenging.
- [67:02]
Dr. Simon Dube
At some point we need to face.
- [67:03]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The fact that people will still, especially like teenagers, will figure out a way to access and will absolutely be influenced by these stimuli.
- [67:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
So there's. How can I say this?
- [67:17]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
There's little that we can do actually.
- [67:19]
Dr. Simon Dube
In a way about it, unfortunately. The best we can do is try to guide them in understanding what's happening. But I would also kind of challenge the fact that people think necessarily that the technology will be much more rewarding.
- [67:35]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Than intimate partners or intimate interactions with partners.
- [67:40]
Dr. Simon Dube
So there's this assumption that, for example, because you're seeing or engaging with incredibly beautiful hyper types of stimuli in pornography, or that potentially you'll be having some of your first sexual experiences with this chatbot, maybe just through a conversation. That'll still be an erotic experiences. You've created a role play, you've created a world and that's still erotic or actual sex with a robot or an artificial partner or in virtual reality reality. There's still a lot of factors that comes into play that might make this experience very rewarding, but that actually engaging with other humans will also actually present a certain aspect of novelty because it is going to present a different type of stimuli. So there's always this kind of possibilities that there will be a form of.
- [68:31]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Complementarity between the two type of stimuli.
- [68:35]
Dr. Simon Dube
Yes, it could shift and create an habituation, especially if people start kind of engaging with it in a repeated manner. Could create sensitization or habituation processes that might reduce their interest or reduce their responses towards intimate partners that are human. But again, I think humans also bring something very unique to the experience that's something more in control, that is perceived in the projection of the ontological class of the other agent as something very different. And that could also be attributed a lot of values in the sense of like people will have. Might eventually ask two different questions about.
- [69:13]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The beginning of their sexual experiences. What we used to call, I don't know, being a virgin or just the.
- [69:20]
Dr. Simon Dube
First their sexual debuts just for the lay public.
- [69:23]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Today more like, what are some of your first sexual experiences or your first sexual debut with partnered sex?
- [69:30]
Dr. Simon Dube
Maybe in the future people will answer two things. They'll say, well, I actually had my first partner sexual experiences with Henry, my.
- [69:37]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Favorite erotic chatbots, and it was super hot and it changed my life.
- [69:44]
Dr. Simon Dube
Or and then they say, and I had my first inter human sexual experiences.
- [69:49]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
With, I don't know, this person that I met or I was dating in high school.
- [69:56]
Dr. Simon Dube
So. And I think more and more we will see that both of these experiences will in a lot of people have different meanings and different values, but will be meaningful nonetheless and significant in their sexual development. Whether one will affect the other and.
- [70:13]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Jeopardize the other, I think it's a.
- [70:16]
Dr. Simon Dube
Bit too early to say. I think there's good reasons to think this could happen, but we will see.
- [70:22]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I think what's for sure is that.
- [70:25]
Dr. Simon Dube
The companies and the regulators that are trying to develop framework and these technologies need to be thinking, need to be responsible as we need to have the courage as a society and as the.
- [70:37]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Governments who are leading and trying to.
- [70:38]
Dr. Simon Dube
Protect the public to tackle one very difficult question, which is what is the responsibilities of companies that are developing products.
- [70:47]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
For intimate and sexual lives. When it comes to our well being.
- [70:51]
Dr. Simon Dube
That'S a question that if you think about it is actually happening in any profession, any product. You cannot develop any product and put it on the market. It needs to be safe, it needs to be guided by standards. And right now we're not dealing with this, we're not dealing with human sexuality the same way we would be dealing with other sectors of human activities and.
- [71:14]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Commercial sectors of production. We are avoiding this question for I.
- [71:19]
Dr. Simon Dube
Think, I suspect a very important reason. It's because the way these, these companies are developing these products for engagement, profit and maximizing data actually is a very similar problem that other companies like, like Meta or social media or even Netflix or any form of entertainment platform is developing the products for. So when we start asking this question.
- [71:48]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
When it comes to artificial partners, we.
- [71:51]
Dr. Simon Dube
Are actually slowly facing the same problems.
- [71:54]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
That we are not dealing with, with.
- [71:56]
Dr. Simon Dube
Other forms of technology that could jeopardize.
- [72:00]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Billions of dollars in valuations and economy.
- [72:03]
Dr. Simon Dube
So once again, I think in our life eroticism is actually kind of revealing.
- [72:09]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The power structures that be.
- [72:12]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
In a way, I think it's so important. So if anyone's listening and they're building something, it's something really important to think about is like what is the consequence of what you're building and how can you do it safely and get the right people involved. I think it's so important. I just went to this conference which was a health technology conference called hlth and it was, there was so much technology there using AI and in a variety of different things. And fortunately they were there but there was very few clinicians like doctors who actually practice medicine. It's like when you're building things for the patient, you need to actually involve the people who are grinding day to day taking care of those patients to give you insights.
- [72:51]
Dr. Rena Malik
Right?
- [72:52]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Because they're going to give you those insights that you can't get from just sort of knowing the market, which is what most companies are really good at, which is knowing the market and understanding the gap. But there's a lot more to it. And I think as this evolves, you know, I think it's really, it's really important. But I think that the, the last question I want to sort of take you with is what is, what do you think will be a social consequence? And that could be positive or negative in the future with E robots like with. Specifically related to those with intimacy. What is something that you think maybe let's say a positive, let's leave people on A positive note?
- [73:34]
Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, absolutely. Because there are plenty of positive, I think a bit of an unforeseen seeing social consequences of what this technology could be or could become is what my colleagues and I like to call the erotic oracle. So because these technologies have access to an unprecedented amount of data about human eroticism at large, from literature, from movies, from science, and from people themselves that.
- [74:12]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Are interacting with it in a daily, on a daily basis, we are actually.
- [74:18]
Dr. Simon Dube
Creating an almost all knowing machine that could be able to predict our erotic developmental trajectory and potentially with this knowledge could help us, guide us into our choices and guide us into erotism to make just better decisions and better reflections. That's really the important component. Help people understand themselves, understand their interactions and their relationships, and ask themselves the right questions and potentially make more informed decisions about their intimacy and sexuality than us humans. Left to just trying to figure out the complexity of human sexuality in the world. And that's like any form of technology, a tremendous power and responsibility, but it could be one that is used for good. If again, these companies that are developing.
- [75:14]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And have access to this data and.
- [75:15]
Dr. Simon Dube
The power of these systems are incentivized to demonstrate how this technology can further human well being. I think it should be mandatory for any companies, regardless of the sector that they operate in, that they have to demonstrate that their technology is improving people's lives. An unforeseen positive is actually technology that know a lot about our individual and collective eroticism and that we have unprecedented.
- [75:48]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Knowledge about our human sexuality at scale and ourselves. So yeah, that's my hope that this greater power and this greater technology serves.
- [75:59]
Dr. Simon Dube
This purpose because it could potentially have.
- [76:02]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
The capabilities to do so.
- [76:04]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
I think knowledge is power, right? I think that it's part of what I do is try to educate people on what's normal and what's, you know, what kind of fantasies people have, what kind of practices people do. And these are all normal as long as they're safe, consensual, you know, and, and you're doing them without the intent to harm, you know, it's totally fine, right? Sex is a space to play. And I hope that by gathering more data it will just be more telling, like, hey, it's okay to have these thoughts or feel this way or want this sort of pleasure, because it is, as you can see now we have an abundance of data. So that is definitely something that I would see that would be positive. If you could have our listeners take away one thing from this podcast or from your work, what would that be?
- [76:50]
Dr. Simon Dube
That's a Good question. Well, the first thing is that sexuality is a profoundly human experience, and we take it everywhere we go. We take it to technology, we take it to space. So I hope that my work and that of my colleague can just kind of remind people of that and put sexuality as a primary focus of technological.
- [77:15]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Development and space exploration.
- [77:16]
Dr. Simon Dube
Not an afterthought, not something that you deal with afterwards, something that is completely integrated holistically in our digital technology development.
- [77:27]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
As well as our space exploration program.
- [77:31]
Dr. Simon Dube
The other thing that I'd like listeners.
- [77:36]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Potentially to think about or take away.
- [77:40]
Dr. Simon Dube
From this is that technology and space offer tremendous opportunities to rethink how we do things, how we live, and therefore innovate. It's not something that is done to us, it's something that we create. So we have the potential to create a technology that is beneficial for us, and we have the potential to create a life that meets our ideal. Eroticism among the stars. Technology and space offer this opportunity. So my last takeaway for the listeners is more of a question. What is your ideal intimacy and sexuality? You have to ask yourself these questions, because once you have the answer, you can start building a plan to make it happen through and with technologies.
- [78:35]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And as we continue to venture into space, so exciting.
- [78:39]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
I think we're at the precipice of something really, really exciting. So I'm hopeful, as you are, that things will be for the better and will hopefully make us a more open, more happier society in the long run.
- [78:55]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Likewise.
- [78:56]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
So we end our podcast with four questions we ask everybody. And so they can be about your work. They can be about anything you like. What is something you know now in life that you wish you knew earlier?
- [79:08]
Dr. Simon Dube
I wish my younger self knew how much the work that we do when.
- [79:15]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It comes to pushing the boundaries of human sexuality in space and with relationships.
- [79:21]
Dr. Simon Dube
With machines would upset people and elicit very strong, messy reactions that are based in their emotion and values, but has nothing to do with us, has nothing to do with us personally. But it has everything to do with the fact that these topics, they touch on their value and what they consider right and wrong when it comes to sexuality. And often that comes from a place.
- [79:53]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Of insecurities, misinformation, and fear.
- [79:57]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Well, and there's a lot of morality that's built into how you're raised and, you know, your society and a variety of different things. I mean, I feel it, too. Very often when I talk about things like pornography or masturbation, people get very passionate. And I would say that I think to extrapolate that to anything is like when you're talking about something some people's. Oftentimes people's reaction are not because they don't like you. It's because they just have a strong reaction to what you're specifically speaking about. What is that non negotiable something you have to do every day?
- [80:31]
Dr. Simon Dube
Check my emails and I try to as much as possible go for a.
- [80:39]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Run or go outside at least once a day. That's. That's a non negotiable. I know for myself that if I.
- [80:48]
Dr. Simon Dube
Don'T do piles on and after already.
- [80:52]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
24 hours or 48 hours it does affect my mental health and just mood so I have to go outside at least once a day.
- [81:00]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Even in those Montreal winters.
- [81:02]
Dr. Simon Dube
Even in those Montreal winter I like actually to run in the snow.
- [81:07]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
It's yeah something I have to do and it's almost, it's.
- [81:14]
Dr. Simon Dube
I consider it as a prescription for myself like the same way people might take a medicine.
- [81:20]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I, I have to to go outside. It's part of a non negotiable mental health self care process.
- [81:27]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
That's great. And the emails thing is probably the most honest answer because I too find that I must look at my email every day which is probably not healthy but I find myself checking it every day.
- [81:38]
Dr. Simon Dube
Yeah, you have to. I mean the second I think about it, the second there's oh maybe I should check my email I have to do it. Really good job for the people who've developed the email through communications. But it is one of the few.
- [81:52]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Things aside from popcorn that I think I have. Yeah, probably a dependency on.
- [81:59]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
What is a life hack or health hack you would share with everybody.
- [82:03]
Dr. Simon Dube
Eat the frog. Eat the frog. Start with the most difficult task task that you have on your bucket list. Don't avoid it. Try to use your precious most energy high moments in your day. For me that's the morning when I'm taking my coffee. I have a window of opportunity between 8 in the morning and 11 where I'm peak energy, peak concentration, peak everything. Tackle the most difficult task that you have on your to do list because you'll feel so much better afterwards regardless of the rest of your day and whatever you do in it. If you've kind of done a big chunk of it, you'll feel like that. The other small components, you'll feel that you've accomplished something today and you'll feel good about it and you'll realize that maybe the other small task you can.
- [82:59]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Do when you have low energy.
- [83:00]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
That's a good one. My Last question is, if you couldn't be a psychologist, a sex researcher, what would you be?
- [83:08]
Dr. Simon Dube
I would be a tour guide or a scuba instructor or I could.
- [83:16]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
I think I would be a writer, actually.
- [83:18]
Dr. Simon Dube
If I. If I think about it, I'd be a hiking tour guide by day and.
- [83:26]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
A writer and write novels and fiction.
- [83:29]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
What kind of fiction?
- [83:30]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Science fiction.
- [83:32]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Science fiction. All right, well, thank you so much.
- [83:35]
Dr. Rena Malik
Tell our audience where they can find.
- [83:36]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Out more about you.
- [83:37]
Dr. Simon Dube
You can absolutely find me quite easily at Simon Dubehd on LinkedIn. And I encourage you to follow our.
- [83:45]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Work with the Kinsey Institute and the Advanced Space Life Research Institute, as well.
- [83:51]
Dr. Simon Dube
As all the fantastic work that we.
- [83:52]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Do at UCAM in the department of sexology.
- [83:55]
Dr. Simon Dube
If you type any of these things.
- [83:57]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
And my name, I think you'll find some interesting research on space sexology and aerobotics.
- [84:02]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
- [84:04]
Dr. Simon Dube (continued or co-speaker)
Thank you so much for the invitation.
- [84:06]
Podcast Host (possibly Dr. Rena Malik or another host)
Thank you guys so much for joining.
- [84:07]
Dr. Rena Malik
Me on today's episode of the podcast. Now that you're at the end, you have to do me one solid favor. Go on your podcast app and hit follow or subscribe. This is super important because when you do that, you actually tell people, hey, this podcast is worth listening to and it gets shown to more people on the podcast apps and gets higher on the charts. So do me a solid favor. It's free, zero cost way to support and as always, you want to take care of yourself because you are worth it.