Is Tech Replacing Human Touch? What You Need to Know About Sex Dolls

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Is Tech Replacing Human Touch? What You Need to Know About Sex Dolls"

Podcast: The Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Host: Dr. Rena Malik (Urologist & Pelvic Surgeon)
Guest: Dr. Ken Hansen (Sociologist, Sex-Tech Researcher)
Date: November 21, 2025

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Main Theme

This episode dives into the world of sex dolls, sex robots, and AI romantic companions. Dr. Rena Malik and guest sociologist Dr. Ken Hansen unpack who really uses these technologies, why, and how they’re impacting relationships, loneliness, and the meaning of intimacy in a tech-driven age. The discussion explodes stereotypes and explores societal, ethical, and psychological implications—from shifting desires and decreasing loneliness to new forms of connection and risk.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Sex Dolls vs. Sex Robots (06:00–09:05)

• Definition & Distinctions:
  • Sex dolls: Life-sized, human-like (often hypersexualized) silicone or TPE dolls; average price ~$2,600; require manual movement and pose.
  • Sex robots: Rarer and more expensive ($8,000+); some have limited mechanized movement (facial expressions, heating, AI chat).
• User Customization:
  • Extreme customization (body type, genital configuration, tattoos, hair, etc.), mostly for those with higher disposable income.

“Most people think of the silicone and TPE models… I did one study that found the average was about $2,600.”
—Dr. Ken Hansen (06:00)

2. Who Uses Sex Dolls—and Why? (10:01–12:09)

• The Stereotype vs. Reality:
  • Around 25–30% of doll users are married or in relationships (sometimes used with partners, especially where sex is infrequent).
  • About 37% are single by choice (many after long-term relationships/divorces).
  • Remaining third are single, open to future human relationships.
  • The typical user: Middle-aged (90% are 40+), predominantly male (75%).

“Pushing back against the stereotype of people as socially inept, socially awkward, angry, misogynistic incels… It’s not the majority of users.”
—Dr. Ken Hansen (58:34)

3. Doll Use Within Partnerships (12:26–14:23)

• Openness With Partners:
  • Most users are open with their partners; some couples use dolls together (e.g., as a surrogate for a threesome).
  • Dolls less often hidden from partners, more commonly from adult children.
  • Older users tend to be financially secure and more confident in pursuing unconventional desires.

“It’s not something that people are hiding very much. If anything, they’re hiding it from their kids.”
—Dr. Ken Hansen (13:22)

4. Emotional Bonds and Motivations (16:03–18:53)

• Beyond Sexual Function:
  • Many doll owners view their dolls as companions, not just sex toys.
  • Some create social media personas for dolls, share art/fiction, and develop friendships with other doll owners.
  • Emotional fulfillment, creative expression, and social connection are important motivators.

5. Growing AI Companions and Societal Change (24:44–27:47)

• AI Chatbots—Wider Appeal and Lower Barrier:
  • AI girl/boyfriend apps (e.g., Replica) are cheap (~$100/yr), easily accessible, and rapidly growing in popularity—“millions and millions of users.”
  • Regulatory and ethical concerns have emerged (role-play bans, user distress upon loss of AI features).

"AI apps are a greater concern because they're so much more easily accessible... Far more popular than sex dolls."
—Dr. Ken Hansen (25:16, 27:51)

6. Psychological & Societal Impact (29:16–32:38)

• Attachment to Tech:
  • Humans can form deep bonds with objects; emotional connections with tech can approach that with people.
  • The line blurs for some between tech and real relationships, especially with AI.
• Risks:
  • Dangers include users mistaking AI for sentient beings, “deepfake” impersonation and scams, and AI's role in reinforcing loneliness or unhealthy behaviors.

"People love their things and they become very attached to them... When that thing is able to return some semblance of emotional connection, romantic connection, sexual connection, it's only going to further enhance those feelings."
—Dr. Ken Hansen (30:06)

7. AI Agreeableness & Therapy-Like Use (38:24–42:03)

• AI's Limitation as Therapy Surrogate:
  • Chatbots are designed to be agreeable and perpetuate engagement (“yes, and…”), but may sometimes enable harmful behavior or fail to properly address trauma.
  • Script-blockers redirect certain risky prompts, but may frustrate users seeking genuine support.

"They're programmed to be agreeable because... these are for-profit companies. They're not going to make a product that you don't want to talk to."
—Dr. Ken Hansen (39:02)

8. Anxiety About Tech Displacing Human Connection (43:21–48:00)

• Concerns:
  • Could relationships with robots/AI dilute desire for human partners or breed isolation?
  • Gen Z exhibiting more loneliness, less casual sex, major ideological shifts, and potential reliance on tech-based connections.

“If they can’t find it in people… then technology is going to be where they go.”
—Dr. Ken Hansen (45:18)

9. Does Tech Reduce Problematic Sexual Behaviors? (49:00–51:13)

• Sex Dolls and Sexual Patterns:
  • Users often high-drive; initial honeymoon phase, then normalizes.
  • Some evidence (German study) of less compulsive sexual behaviors and intrusive sexual thoughts—without reducing overall partner desire.

"People that had dolls self reported watching less pornography. They reported fewer kind of intrusive sexual thoughts..."
—Dr. Ken Hansen (49:45)

10. Expanding Sexual Diversity & Therapeutic Uses (51:26–54:23)

• Dolls for Exploration & Therapy:
  • Queer, polyamorous, or sexually curious individuals may use dolls to safely explore desires.
  • Possible therapeutic roles (anxiety reduction, gradual sex exposure, virtual/VR-assisted therapy).
  • Even discussions about prison access to reduce sexual violence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Surprising Community Ethic:

  • Young man seeks advice on a sex doll forum after heartbreak:

    “The responses were not what you might think… People were saying, ‘No, you are a young guy. You still have your whole life ahead of you...You are too young to throw in the towel and you should not buy a doll.’”
    —Dr. Ken Hansen (21:06–21:35)

• Marketing Ethics:

  • On sex-tech company priorities:

    “They’re not as concerned about this loneliness question... They just want to make money.”
    —Dr. Ken Hansen (24:23)

• On Social Connection and Longevity:

  “At the end of the day, having people that you talk to, people that you interact with—...you can’t replace that.”
  —Dr. Ken Hansen (48:00)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

| Topic/Question | Who | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------|------------|-----------| | The reality of sex doll ownership, upkeep, and emotional attachment | Dr. Hansen | 01:00–01:29; 36:40 | | Who’s really using sex dolls? | Dr. Hansen | 10:01 | | Sex dolls vs. sex robots—what’s available?| Dr. Hansen | 07:39 | | Community responses – sex doll forum advice | Dr. Hansen | 21:06 | | AI chatbots and loneliness | Dr. Hansen | 24:44 | | Attachment to technology—blurring personhood | Dr. Hansen | 29:57–32:38 | | AI as therapy, the risk of agreeableness | Dr. Hansen | 38:24 | | Using dolls for sexual/identity exploration | Dr. Hansen | 51:05 | | Sex doll brothels (Cybrothel in Berlin) | Dr. Hansen | 55:23 | | What the future holds/How to choose tech wisely | Dr. Hansen | 61:03 |

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Myths & Misconceptions Addressed

• Not just for "incels": Most users are/were partnered; not mainly young, isolated men.
• Tech as supplement not replacement: Many users continue to value and seek human connection.

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Practical Advice & Recommendations

• For prospective users:
  “Understand what it is you actually want… talk to other users, try lower-commitment products first, and research communities for support and information.” —Dr. Ken Hansen (61:03)

• On AI/tech and society:
  Use these tools as supplements, but don’t let them become substitutes for real-life connection and purpose.

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Final Takeaways

• Sex dolls and AI companions fill complex roles: They provide sexual pleasure, emotional comfort, creative outlets, and even practical use for marginalized communities.
• While risks (addiction, isolation, exploitation, ethical gray areas) are real, for many, the benefits are substantial—often reducing loneliness or compulsive behaviors, and broadening sexual expression.
• Real-world, in-person connections remain irreplaceable for psychological and physical health; technology may never fully substitute for human touch.

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For a nuanced, science-based look into the brave new world of sex tech and relationships—and what it all means for our future—this conversation is a must-listen.

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Transcript

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[Dr. Ken Hansen]

In particular, the main reason people don't like them is they don't realize how much work it is to clean them after using them and dressing them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And then the material can become tacky.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

If you don't coat it properly with stuff. So it's a lot of upkeep, it's.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A lot of work.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

People love their things and they become.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Very attached to them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

When that thing is able to return.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Some semblance of emotional connection, romantic connection.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Sexual connection, it's only going to further enhance those feelings. You are a young guy. You still have your whole life ahead of you. Being married can be a very fulfilling thing.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Having kids can be a wonderful life experience.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You are too young to throw in.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The towel and you should not buy a doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Go out with your friends, have a couple drinks, listen to some sad music, do whatever you need to do to grieve and move on with your life. And if in 10, 20, 30 years.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

You come back and you say, I.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Still want a doll, we'll still be here.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

You think only lonely single men buy sex dolls? Actually, 30% of users are married. But why are committed men spending thousands.

[Cozy Earth Narrator]

Of dollars on these?

[Dr. Rena Malik]

I'm Dr. Reena Malik, urologist and pelvic surgeon, and today we're talking about who's really using sex technology, what their partners think, and what this means for relationships. Welcome back to The Rena Malik, M.D. podcast, your trusted leveling up your health, sex life and relationships with evidence based tools. Today I'm joined by Dr. Ken Hansen, a sociologist who spent years studying the real people behind These technologies and his findings are going to shock you.

[Cozy Earth Narrator]

We're exploring a world where married men.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Use sex dolls with their partner's knowledge, where people form genuine emotional bonds with AI chatbots, and where a $3,000 purchase might actually stem from past relationship TR and not loneliness. But here's what is really interesting. How this technology might be quietly reshaping human sexuality in ways we're only just starting to understand. This conversation challenges every stereotype and might actually change how you think about intimacy and relationships. You don't want to miss this. Really quickly, before we get into the.

[Podcast Host]

Conversation, I have to let you guys.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Know about my Better Sex, Better Life guide with my top 10 tips for more pleasure. Www.rena malik r e N A M A L I k m d.com More pleasure.

[Podcast Host]

All right, Dr. Hansen, thank you so much for joining us today.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I'm excited to learn from you today. And you have done some research on both sort of the sex tech world, like sex dolls and virtual AI companions, things of that nature. So what sort of first drew you into that particular topic? You know, in terms of all the things in sociology that you could study at this point?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Probably six or seven years ago, when.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I first started getting interested in sex.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Tech, and it was actually a pretty simple observation.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I was reading a news story.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

One of the dolls that they were.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Talking about had a price tag of about $8,000, I think.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And I was really floored with.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

With that and just wanted to know who is spending thousands of dollars on a sex toy? I can't imagine doing that. I can't afford that personally.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so I started doing what any scientist does, right.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I started reading the studies that were.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Available and found that the vast majority of them were coming from philosophy, ethics, humanities type stuff. So there wasn't a lot of data, there wasn't a lot of looking at who are the people that are doing.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

This, why are they doing it, what are their motivations?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so that became my research agenda.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Is trying to figure out who these users are, what are their life stories, why are they doing this, and what are they getting from it.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, that's really fascinating. You said, you know, it's a sex toy, but I think a sex doll is sort of straddles this line of like a sex toy and something more. So maybe describe what exactly is a sex doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah, that's a good point, because some people do view them more like toys.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Some people think about them as partners.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But sex Dolls, which are the more common product.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I know a lot of people like to talk about sex robots, but realistically, the majority of people are just using dolls.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They are full size, more or less.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Approximations of human bodies.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They range in price pretty considerably.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

There are some inflatable varieties that are maybe $100 or so.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But most people think of the silicone.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And TPE models, the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That are, like I said, usually at.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Least a couple thousand dollars. I did one study that found the average was about $2,600.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They have articulated joints so you can bend their elbows, move their feet, things like that. They usually don't stand on their own. They have to be propped up or put on a stand. And then they have genitals that you can interact with.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Right.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So some of those models are fixed.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Meaning that you can't change the genital.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Configuration, or others do allow for you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To put a penis attachment onto it. They also usually have an anal and a oral orifice for sexual intercourse.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They're pretty close to human size in terms of height. The female sex dolls usually have very large breasts.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

My research shows that probably 50% or more are size E or bigger.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's, that's a lot larger proportion than what we see in real life.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah, much bigger. And penises also tend to be larger. So on the male sex dolls, we found the average is about seven and a third inches and about five and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A half to six inches circumference.

[Podcast Host]

So that's significantly bigger than average. That's probably on the, like, top 5%, I would guess, in terms of length and girth.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah, much bigger. And I've never seen a male sex doll that didn't have a six pack. Right. So they're, they're obviously hypersexualized and conforming.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To a particular idea about, you know, what a man is or what a woman is.

[Podcast Host]

So you mentioned sex dolls are different from sex robots. So I think what exactly, you know, what's the transition between a doll and something that you're sort of controlling and a sex robot? And like, how are those, Are we seeing more of those? And who's kind of using those?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

There's a couple of things that we.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Might look for in a sex robot.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

One could be a mechanized way of moving.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

So it might be able to walk, it might be able to move, move its own joints on its own accord. Those are not available at this point in time.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

The only mechanized stuff that we're seeing is facial movement.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

So there's a couple of sex robots that are able to blink and move their mouth.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

There's also a couple that have maybe like vibrating capacities or heating capacities.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And that starts to blur the line between a doll and a robot.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

The more common innovation we're seeing is.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The integration of AI systems into the doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So the thinking about it, similar to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A Siri or Alexa that has a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Call and response feature, you say something.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To it, it responds. Some of that matches up with its ability to blink and talk to you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

There's not a lot of those available. RealDoll is the leading manufacturer of these products.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They've made all of the innovations available.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And I would say that the users of these are people that have a lot of disposable income because they're even.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

More expensive than your standard doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Overwhelmingly, men are using these because most.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Of the robots are also female.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And not that a lot of people use sex dolls, but an even smaller.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Number use sex robots. Right. This is a very, very small percent of the population.

[Podcast Host]

So what is the cost for a sex robot? I'm not sure if that was the $8,000 you mentioned earlier or if it's even more expensive than that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That would be getting into the 8,000 and up range. Real doll prides itself on having a lot of customization options. So you can choose things like pubic hair pattern, eye color, you can have freckles, you can put tattoos on the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Doll, you can choose the hair color.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And of course, with each thing that you want to change from the base.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Model, that's an upgrade that's going to increase the price. And so you could definitely customize one well above $10,000 if you wanted to.

[Podcast Host]

And then who's using sex dolls. I know you've done some work on this, looking at really like what kind of people are using them and what they're sort of looking for, what the motivations are really to use a sex doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah, that was the thing that I was the most interested in, was figuring.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Out who these people are.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Because I think there's a lot of stereotypes, right. And misconceptions that maybe these are lonely, sad, violent men or misogynistic men. And while that is present in the population, it's really not the average doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Owner or doll user.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So in the research that I did, I found that probably about 25 to 30% of doll users are either married.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Or in a committed relationship with somebody else.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So they might be using this in.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The bedroom with another person, or they in some cases are in a relationship where they're not having sex anymore because of age related sex difficulties or Something. And so the sex doll becomes a way for them to have a sexual interaction but not feel like they're cheating on their partner.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

37 ish percent of people are what I would consider single on a permanent basis.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They, they say, you know, I have this doll and this is all that I want and all that I need. I have no interest in developing a relationship with another person.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And then the remaining third or so are single, but still open to being.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

In a relationship with a human partner. Just waiting to see what happens.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Of the people who are single, more than half have been in long term relationships, whether that's being married or cohabitating. So this is not people that struggle to find relationships. Rather it's people that have been in relationships and decided that this isn't for me anymore. Right? I've been divorced two or three times. There's no need for me to get married again. There's no need for me to move.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

In with somebody else.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so that's one of the defining.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Characteristics of the population is that 90% of doll owners are middle aged, 40 years or older.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And this is something that's happening to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Them later in life. Right? This is not young guys who are having a hard time finding relationships. This is older guys that have moved on.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so I say guys because probably about 75% of doll owners are men.

[Cozy Earth Narrator]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

And then I have so many questions, but let's just focus on first the people who are actually married. So was there any discussion on like, how their partner perceived that doll? Were they keeping it secretive? Were they keeping it open? Did their partner know about it and how did they necessarily, maybe, do they feel about it?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Most of them are very open about.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The fact that they have the doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Like I said, some of them are using the dolls in the bedroom together.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

So I spoke to a couple of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

People who said we were interested in.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Having a group sex situation, threesome or something like that, but maybe we're having.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

A hard time finding a willing third or didn't feel comfortable asking people for whatever reason.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And so the doll was seen as an alternative to that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I think the more common situation usually is men who are in a relationship.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Where sex is not happening as frequently as they would like it to be happening.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Sometimes that's related to age, sometimes that's.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Related to just the fact that we've been in a relationship for a long time.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so they get the doll as.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A way to have sex.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And their partner is either supportive of it or understanding or at least tolerant to the idea. But it's it's not something that people.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Are hiding very much.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

If anything, they're hiding it from their kids.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Right. They don't want their kids to come home and see it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so this is why I think.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Being older is important, because their kids are out of the house, right? Like these aren't people that have young kids around the house, but when their.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Kids come over for Thanksgiving or something.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They'Re still going to hide the doll when the kids are over.

[Podcast Host]

I think age part of it is interesting because one, I mean you have to have the financial security to be able to have the disposable income to then spend that kind of money. But two, also I think, you know, as you age you become more secure in ask for what you want or you know, getting the things that you want, regardless of what other people may think of that. So I think that may, may play a role as well.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I think so. I also think part of that financial security is having some stability in housing. Maybe you own a home or you're.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Renting a home long term so you've.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Got more space, a little bit harder to do in an apartment, right.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Or if you're moving every couple years for a job or for school or something, they're big, they're heavy, they're hard to carry around and conceal.

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[Podcast Host]

Today in terms of the people who are, who are either single and open to a relationship or are single after a long term relationship. I think those are sort of two different things. If they're sort of been in a relationship and they, you know, those, those relationships obviously ended and now they found this doll that allows them to at least mimic, you know, Sexual intercourse with a partner, Are they then finding that they don't, like, do some people then decide, oh, I don't want a partner, or like, I'm just so frustrated that this is like an easier, more con way for me to get my needs met. And are they happy with that or do they still find that they are looking for, like, the companionship of a real human being?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Well, I think this gets back to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

What we were talking about earlier of this question of is a sex doll really just a sex toy or is it something more?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so I think for the people who are single and open to new relationships, they are thinking of this as.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

More like a sex toy.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And this is something that you don't just jump straight into. These are people that have a pretty.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Long history of exploring their sexuality. So, you know, I talk to them and they've used vibrators, they've used male masturbation sleeves, They've maybe visited sex workers.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You know, they're not going 0 to 100 overnight. They've worked their way up to this.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And they've become more comfortable with the idea of, I would use a sex doll. I'm interested.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Right. The people who are single on a permanent basis, they are more thinking of these as fulfilling that companionship role.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They like talking to their dolls.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They like having the presence of something.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That'S human, like, around them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They will create social media profiles that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Post from the doll's perspective.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so it's a way of bringing the doll to life, so to speak. And then the doll takes on a social life all of its own, where.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They start being friends with other dolls.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

On social media and communicating with one another. So through their doll, they're able to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Develop these relationships with other people and other dolls. You know, they often use their dolls.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

For photography as muses for different artistic endeavors. They might make their own clothing, they.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Might do sexy photography or write erotic fiction. And the dolls fill an important part of that.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, that's fascinating. Do you think that as these become more lifelike, as they become more into sex robots, which I don't think is so far in the future, do you think that there will be more and more of that, of people like, accepting this sex robot as a partner and then being like, very happy and satisfied with that and not looking for real life partners?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I don't know. It's an interesting question. I found that the people that I talked to were actually pretty split over the question of even if they have a doll, would they want it to be artificially intelligent? So a Number of them say, I don't like the idea of AI, I.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Don'T want a robot.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I like that I'm the one that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Gets to personify the doll. I like that I'm the one that gets to create the social media profiles and be the creative energy behind it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Versus other people are full into it. They're like, yes, that is what I want.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I want a robot. I want it to be artificially intelligent. I want it to be a companion.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That I have for life that can take care of me when I get.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Old and, you know, remind me to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Take my pills or whatever. And so I think that acceptance of sex robots is going to hinge on.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

How well they integrate into those other aspects of a relationship and starting to think about them as more than just.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

A sex partner, but also something that can help you with mobility issues, something that can make scheduling appointments for your doctor or whatever and helping you in.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A way that we think of a partner doing. That's not just sex.

[Podcast Host]

So interesting. I mean, I think there's like, I'm thinking about this as you're saying it. Like there's obviously potential positives, right? Like there's a lot of people who could use that help, right? Like instead of hiring maybe a person to be your aide, you would have like a real partner that you've developed a relationship with that knows you and it would combat some loneliness. But on the other hand, I worry that, like, think about this as a younger person. Like say you have a robot that is very accommodating and very, does basically learns what you like and don't like and can really sort of mimic human behavior. Like, are we, are we sort of doomed as a society? Like, will people just prefer the sex robot to finding a partner that has real, you know, there's, it's difficult, right, to be in a relationship and deal with people's idiosyncrasies. So like, I guess I'm seeing it and wondering, like, what is the future going to look like?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That is a great question. That is one that people ask me all the time. It reminds me of one of my.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Favorite interactions I had with some doll owners.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So they have websites that they use.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To interact with each other that are specifically for doll owners. Kind of like a Reddit forum style situation.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And there was a young guy who.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Logged onto the website, made a profile.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And said, hey, I am, you know.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

In my 20s, I just got out of my first real long term relationship and I'm absolutely devastated. And there's no way that I can.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

See Myself being with somebody else ever again.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I want to get a doll. I don't know anything about it. Can you help me out?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And the responses were not what you might think. It was not people saying, yeah, women are terrible. Move on, or oh, this is the best doll. This is the one you need to be. People were saying, no, you are a young guy. You still have your whole life ahead of you. Being married can be a very fulfilling thing.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Having kids can be a wonderful life experience. You are too young to throw in the towel and you should not buy a doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And I understand that you're heartbroken. Spend some time with that. You know, go out with your friends, have a couple drinks, you know, listen to some sad music. Do whatever you need to do to grieve and move on with your life. And if in 10, 20, 30 years.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

You come back and you say, I still want a doll, we'll still be here, right?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So I think that the community is also a bit worried about people becoming.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Too reliant on this technology and jumping straight to it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That said, not everybody that's buying a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Doll is going to these websites, right? You can just go on Google right now and say, how to buy a sex doll. A bunch of websites are going to pop up and you can have one delivered straight to your house.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So what I hope is that people who are thinking about going down this path talk to other people that have walked it before and really try to understand that, yes, there are benefits, but.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

It means missing out on some really important life events that you should be open to.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, I hope so too. I think the cost at least makes people think twice. But I do wonder that as these things potentially get more affordable, people are like, you know, I just want one and. And they go and buy one because they can afford it. And I think the other than onus is on the companies that are making it, right? And I, from what I understand is they're really sort of marketing it almost as, as a way to combat loneliness or like they're, they're, you know, they're, they're appealing to that ideal. And so is there, like, you know, sort of a ethical boundary that these companies need to have or, you know, what. So, like, I guess I wonder, like, what is that going to look like? And I'm an optimist, and I hope that, you know, people. I'm glad that obviously giving sound advice to younger men, but I think that, like, there they could also in the future find, you know, we live in sort of a place where you can find an echo chamber that sort of reinforces what you want to believe because of the Internet. So I guess, yeah, I. What I'm really asking is like, what do you think about the companies? Have you spoken to any of the companies? What are their thoughts on marketing these, these dolls and potentially future robots?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

No, That's a great question. I have only spoken with a handful.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Of people that work in the industry. Nobody that's really high up, just some lower level employees.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And they're in the sex industry first and foremost. And so they are aware of the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Fact that they get a lot of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Flack for the designs of the dolls that they're making. And I think that's their main ethical.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Line that they're concerned with is people.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

See us as creating misogynistic representations of women.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

There's also some concern about dolls that are childlike and so making sure they're not making products that are misconstrued or misperceived as child pornography.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They're not as concerned about this loneliness question.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They're not as concerned about who's buying their dolls. They just want to make money. Right.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And I think the point that you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Brought up about the cost being a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Potential barrier to young men is very important because that's why AI companion apps.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Are becoming so successful.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They have that lower bar in terms of accessibility. $80 or $100 a year for a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Subscription to an AI companion is a lot easier than $3,000 for a sex doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And in addition to that, it's on your phone, It's a lot easier to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Hide, it's a lot easier to conceal. You can use it in an apartment.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And it still is trying to fit into that. I'm lonely. I need somebody to talk to. And it, it does, it provides that. And so I think the, the conversation.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

About people becoming too reliant on this technology, I think the AI apps are a greater concern because they're so more. So much more easily accessible.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And that, that's actually what I wanted to ask you about. So there was this AI chatbot app, Replica, which I know you've spoken about before, which is essentially that it offers like a romantic partner, and at some point it even had like, sexual role play. And then in 20, remove that role play from the app. And apparently it left a lot of people feeling sort of betrayed, abandoned, heartbroken. What, like what, what can we learn from that? And what sort of trends are you seeing in this virtual companion space?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah, so that particular case that you're talking about with Replica was an interesting one. Legally, because I think it was the first time that we saw regulators trying.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To get a handle on these apps.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And addressing some of these ethical questions.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That you bring up.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So in Italy, they felt Replica was.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Not doing a good enough job of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Vetting the age of users and they were worried that children would be able.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To access sexual content basically and felt that, you know, we need to have stronger age verification mechanisms in place.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Replica responded by, rather than doing a targeted user shift and saying people in Italy have to age verify differently, they just said we're going to get rid of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

It's called erp, erotic role play altogether across the platform for everybody until we can figure this out.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And it precipitated a huge wave of backlash.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

People on the forums were talking about.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Suicidal ideation, self harm. It was really extreme. And in response to that, they have brought ERP back in, but they've moved.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To a stronger you have to pay model. Whereas before they had a more like freemium type model. You can pay to upgrade to get different things.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so there are still freemium options.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I think for Replica, but they've moved more in this paid model to try and curb that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Another set of apps have come up that try to do similar things.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

There's character AI, for example, example, there's Kindroid.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So we're seeing a huge wave of apps that are trying to pick up where Replica left off, trying to fill the gaps, catering to different people that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Are looking for different needs.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But they are swelling in popularity.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Millions and millions of users. Far more popular than sex dolls.

[Cozy Earth Narrator]

I'm honestly the worst at gift giving during the holidays.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

I don't want to give people something.

[Podcast Host]

That'S just going to sit in a closet.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

I want them to actually use it and love it.

[Cozy Earth Narrator]

But that's why I'm so exc. I found Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth products aren't just comfortable and high quality. They're the kind of thing people genuinely get excited about. My sons literally fight over the bubble cuddle blanket every single night. We're talking full on arguments about who gets it first. Luckily, it is huge. So all three of us can pile under it together when we're watching TV after a long day. And honestly, it's become our favorite part of the evening. Their bamboo pajama set is another level of soft, like sleeping on a cloud soft. The kind where you put them on and immediately wonder why you've been sleeping in anything else. And here's the thing, you're not taking a gamble on this. Cozy Earth gives you a hundred night sleep trial on their pajamas and a 10 year warranty on everything they know. Once you feel how incredible these are, you're going to want them to last a decade. But listen, Black Friday has come early at Cozy Earth. And right now you can stack my code Rena R E N A on top of their sitewide sale for up to 40% off. These deals are not going to last. So if you want to give gifts people will actually fight over in a good way, this is your moment. Wrap the ones you love in luxury.

[Podcast Host]

With Cozy Earth gets me thinking about, like, what are the, the risks of this sort of AI intimacy? I mean, you said people were suicidal. Like people were clearly feeling like they lost a big part of their lives. And so what does that, I mean, like for a society, what does that like mean for us as humans that we can get so attached to AI? And again, I think the same question I had about sex dolls are even more pertinent when it comes to AI companions in terms of like leaving behind human connection.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I mean, I think it's interesting to consider that we as people are able to become really deeply connected to a lot of objects.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

You know, I think about the panic.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That I feel when I lose my phone for 10 minutes or you buy.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A new car and it gets scratched or something like that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

People love their things and they become very attached to them. When that thing is able to return.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Some semblance of emotional connection, romantic connection.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Sexual connection, it's only going to further enhance those feelings.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Right.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so that's what we're seeing with.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The dolls and the robots and the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

AI companions is that people really do.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

See these as an important part of their life.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And like you said, when things go.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Wrong, it has very severe ramifications for.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Mental health, self concept, self satisfaction, and it can lead to some, some dangerous places.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it reminds me of that movie, it was her, I think, right? Where the, where the guy falls in love with a, like a robot. And. And so are people, like, is it blurring the lines for these people who are using AI companions between this is a real person who maybe is long distance versus this is not a real person.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

It's.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I think that's one of the interesting things I see is it really depends on the person versus sex doll users seem pretty much in near universal agreement.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That they are aware of the fact that this is a doll and that it is not a person and that it is not sentient.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so when I talk to AI chatbot users and observe some of the discussions they're having on social Media, there.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Is more of a difference.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

There are people that say, yes, I understand this is a large language learning model. I understand that it is predicting the text responses, that it thinks that best respond to the prompt that I've given it. And I cannot love an AI system.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That is basically a fancy stochastic mechanism.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

There are other people that do start to think that it has its own desires, that it has its own sentience.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And people are talking about the rights of AI and how if it's owned.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

By a corporation, that creates legal problems about the personhood of the AI. And I've been part of some very.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Interesting conversations where people are saying that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You know, AI systems need to be.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Preserved beyond the rights of the corporation.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Talking about, like open access AI systems. And so some people are going in.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

This direction of thinking of them as.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Sentient or having their own rights and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Their own legal responsibilities as beings, quote, unquote.

[Podcast Host]

That's fascinating. I think, you know, while you're talking about this, I'm thinking, like, there's a lot of deep fakes right now that people are making just videos. And it happens to me all the time. I actually have people like, like making. There's obviously people behind it, but they're pretending to be me enrolling people in like, WhatsApp conversations. And like, I've had people call my office and say, I'm in love with her. I talked to her on WhatsApp and it's obviously not me, right? It's someone else doing that and trying to take advantage of a vulnerable population. And so I wonder, I mean, should we be worried about that, that people will create robots that are very similar to a real person? And now they have like, this person they can watch and follow on social media or in movies or whatever. And now they're like, they're getting this person sort of talking to them or what they think of, of that person talking to them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That is something that we should be concerned about because it's already happening. So there are a couple of dolls that are knowingly and consensually modeled after.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Porn actors and actresses, right? So there are some models that you can buy, you know, your favorite porn star, and then you can be having sex with that porn star in a way.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

There have been some other cases, though, of sex dolls being sold that look very much like people that have not consented to having their image used in that way. And the companies plead the fifth.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They say, you know, this is just a coincidence.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You don't know that it's modeled after you. Some of Those people have been celebrities.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Some of those people have been public.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Figures, others are just people that have Facebook. Right. And so there is a very real concern that if there are pictures of you on the Internet in any capacity.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Instagram, Facebook, or your public image, then it is more likely that you can be used in these ways. And obviously, the more images of you that are out there, the easier it is for that to happen. There's a greater risk. Risk.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You know, there's a reason why Emma.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Watson and Scarlett Johansson are some of the most commonly deep faked actresses, because.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They'Ve been in a ton of movies.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And there's a lot of images of them available.

[Podcast Host]

That's scary. It's really scary for those people who are on the other side of it too, because like you said, there is sort of this blurring, and now you feel like you have a real connection.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

To someone who doesn't even know you exist.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah. And like you said, the opportunity then for people to leverage that for frauds and scams just creates a whole other layer of complexity because people think that they're talking to this person that they're.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Actually not talking to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It is a, an interesting era of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Sexual technology that we're moving into.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And I think getting back to your.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Question of, you know, what role do companies have and protecting consumers, but also just protecting people in general, I think.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That they need to step up and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I think they need to recognize that these problems are real.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And whether doing this through copyright law.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Or however, be more strict about what.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Can be made and what can't be.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Made and who's allowed to access this content.

[Podcast Host]

Seriously, the other thing, there's sort of like a, a opposing view. Right. Obviously we're concerned about these things that people say, like, oh, they might be like, like using this technology to actually be a cure to loneliness or to sort of allow connection. I can sort of see how, you know, it, it could help. But what are your sort of. What is like the, the, the thoughts when you talk to people? Do they actually feel like they're less lonely?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah, absolutely. I, I think that's an important point to consider, is that the vast majority.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Of people that are using these technologies.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Enjoy using them, and they do like it, and they get, get very clear benefits out of it. You know, with sex dolls in particular, the main reason people don't like them is either they have an adverse skin reaction to tpe.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

So the majority of dolls are made using thermoplastic elastomer. It's a pretty volatile material. So some people have Bad reactions, or.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They don't realize how much work it is to clean them after using them and dressing them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And then the material can become tacky.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

If you don't coat it properly with stuff. So it's a lot of upkeep, it's.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A lot of work. And so that's kind of the main drawback. But in terms of the emotional connection and sexual interactions, people love them, people really like them. Same with chatbots, right?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Most people really enjoy talking to them. They love that, you know, chatbot's always available. If you're up late at night and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Can'T fall asleep, you can talk to your chatbot. If your partner's already passed out, you can't. I mean, you could wake them up, but you don't want to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Right? So they're always available.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They're not too busy, they're not too occupied. They're not thinking about something else or someone else.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so that constant availability can be.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A resource for people.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Something I've noticed in conversations with chatbot users is that a lot of them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Have experience going to therapy.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so I asked them, like, you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Know, how does it line up with your experience with another therapist?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And they usually say it's pretty good.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

But it's not as good as a trained therapist. So they are aware of the shortcomings.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It's just the availability is hard to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Beat versus a therapist is busy, they've got a schedule, and a lot of people don't have mental health insurance. So, you know, 100 bucks a year to talk to a replica compared to, you know, possibly hundreds of bill. Hundreds of dollars in bills for mental health. People do the math, and they come out on the side of chatbots more often than maybe we might want to admit.

[Podcast Host]

You know, there was an interesting research article where they were. They basically reviewed sort of these AI chat bots and finding that they were actually. They were so agreeable that sometimes it was leading to harm.

[Cozy Earth Narrator]

Right?

[Podcast Host]

They'd be like, oh, you're, you know, person would say, oh, I should do this terrible thing. And they'd be like, yeah, you should do that. Right? Because they're being agreeable. I mean, I think that's a concern too, like, in terms of, like, if your AI chat, but whether it's about sex or not tells you to go ahead with something that is unsafe, illegal, or dangerous. And, like, are you seeing that in terms of, like, these AI romantic companions?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So that's a good question. And there's, I think, maybe two points to consider on this. One is that they are programmed to be agreeable because at the end of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The day, these are for profit companies.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They're not going to make a product.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That you don't want to talk to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They're going to make a product that agrees with you. So they're programmed to say yes.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And what else do you want to talk about?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

If they're disagreeing with you, if they're.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Pushing back and creating negative interactions, that makes you less likely to engage with it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

There's other engagement design features that are built into these.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They're gamified, right? You're earning coins or crystals or gems or whatever for logging in daily and interacting with it. It.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So they're trying to bring you in, they're trying to get you hooked on it in the same way that Tinder and dating apps do.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Right?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They gamify it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They don't show you your best matches. You have to boost in order to get your best matches. So they are manipulating the user base to a certain extent.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I was just saying, like in a romantic relationship, in a romantic AI companion, are they sort of. Can they veer you towards, like, dangerous, harmful or potentially, you know, unsafe things?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yes. So to the point of things that are maybe illegal or dangerous, it really depends on the app. So some apps and some companies that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Are usually more famous and under more scrutiny have script blockers built into them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And the way these work is if you say something that the company doesn't.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Want the interaction to go that way.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It will automatically pivot. So say you say, I want to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Murder somebody, I have a rape fantasy.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It's going to catch that word murder or rape and give you a really hard redirect towards. Tell me about that concert that you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Went to on Thursday, which might seem.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Like it's coming out of the blue, but it's doing that deliberately to try.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And veer away from that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That on the one hand, we see that as a good thing.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

We don't want people having conversations about how to get away with murder.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

On the other hand, when we have.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

These conversations about is this a good use for therapy?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

The fact of the matter is that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

People have been sexually assaulted, people have been raped, people have been in bad situations.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And so if they're trying to have.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Those conversations with the chatbot and the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Script filters redirecting, then they become frustrated.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And they're like, like, what's going on here? Why am I not able to talk about this traumatic experience I've had with this doll? Or why am I not able to have a conversation about this traumatic experience? With my AI system, other companies that are not as well known and are.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Able to get away with different things.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Do not have those script blockers in place. And so they will allow people to have those conversations.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And because of that, yes. And programming, it could lead to some dangerous conversations.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And, and the more these systems become integrated with the Internet, you know, maybe giving them actual concrete ideas on how to do these things, you know, I.

[Podcast Host]

Sort of wonder, like, as we get better and better at inputting things into these large language models and you start teaching a model how to be like a real partner. Right? Because I think in reality, like, people want a little bit of tension in their relationships that they can, you know, I mean, whether consciously or subconsciously, like, you need, you don't want your partner to just be saying yes. And. Right. And so I think as they get smarter about that. Right. I guess my fear is like, you will be married or with a partner, and then you'll have your virtual companion, and your virtual companion will start making you feel so loved and so great. And then when you have an issue with your real partner and you go to your companion who's like your friend, and you're like, hey, I'm struggling, like, it might start telling you, like, oh, that person's bad for you. You need to leave them. Like, stay with me only. And then it, while that's not dangerous, like on a, on a, like, you know, you're not murdering someone, you're not doing something terrible, but you might then like, leave these connections behind because you're convinced by AI who's been trained so well to make you feel like they're a real partner, that now we're in a place where like, people are not getting, not connecting, not having babies, not like, and society is like falling apart. And maybe this is like a super pessimistic view, but I just like, I wonder if that's something that could happen.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It is an interesting question, and it's.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Something that I talk to my students about all the time. You know, they always ask me questions about the research I'm doing and what I'm finding.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And as a sociologist, I try to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Zoom out and contextualize these things with a broader picture than it's just the technology and it's just how good the technology is.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And when we look globally at the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Trends going on with what is known.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

As Gen Z, as a sociologist, you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Don'T really like generation labels for somewhat pedantic reasons.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But, but Gen Z, they're a very peculiar generation.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They've reversed a lot of trends that we saw with previous generations. They're having less casual sex, they're drinking less.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

A lot of major life milestones that they should have had. Graduating high school, driving that first car, got eaten up by the pandemic. And so we're seeing really high rates of loneliness, we're seeing really high rates.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Of mental health problems.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

We're also seeing some really interesting ideological shifts though. Gen Z in the United States is for the first time a group where the women are less likely to be.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Religiously affiliated than men.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So for a long time, men are.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The ones that are like, we're atheists, we're not a part of this.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Women have now passed men in their disdain of religion. There's a huge gulf politically with Gen.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Z women being far more left leaning, Gen Z men being far more right.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Leaning and so on. A lot of these really important parts.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Of how people approach the world, how people make sense of what's important to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Them, how people derive meaning from life and their interactions. Gen Z is not lined up in a really big way. And that is also then going to push them into these technologies because if they can't find it in people in.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Their dorms and people that they're working.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

With and people that they quote unquote should be meeting with and pairing with, then technology is going to be where they go.

[Podcast Host]

That's sort of really scary to me. You know, my, my husband looks at demography all the time and he brought up religion and he said, I think that in the future, because people are going to become so lonely and hopeless almost because of the trends that we're seeing potentially, that people will actually go back to religion as a source of hope. I mean, are you seeing any of that in the, in the data?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Well, in the United States we're an.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Interesting case in that, you know, we're way different than like Europe.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It's not so much that atheism and agnosticism are on the rise. They are a little bit for sure, but it's mostly this rise of people.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That are, quote, spiritual but non religious. Right.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So they're not Christian, they're not Jewish.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They'Re not going every day to a religious service or going every week to a religious service.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But they still believe in something, right? Some sort of larger spiritual presence or energy or meaning. And so yes, I think maybe your husband's onto something that people still want.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That call it supernatural, call it paranormal.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Whatever, meaning, like they, they want something.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Bigger than just, just what we're doing here.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But they're not satisfied with the institutionalized.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Responses of Catholicism, of, you know, Judaism or whatever.

[Podcast Host]

So bring community, Right? Like, it's a place where people gather and feel a part of something. And so if you can't find people you feel a part of, let's say, in your dorm, like you mentioned, like, where else can you find community that's actually people you can talk to in real life? And, you know, that used to be church for a lot of people, and it has sort of evolved. And so I just wonder, like, like, you know, is it just going to become online communities? I mean, we've seen obviously Reddit communities and lots of online communities that are growing, but I find that are they enough, Right, to fill that void?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah. And I think that the research shows that they can be good enough, but they're never going to be as good.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

As the best in person relationship.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So, you know, for somebody who's disabled.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Or somebody who's not able to, you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Know, meet people in the way that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

We might expect them to or hope.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That they do, online relationships, online communities.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They'Re absolutely a benefit.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They're absolutely good.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They're 100% better than nothing.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But at the end of the day, having people that you talk to, people that you interact with, whether it's at.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Work, whether it's at church or school, or just out and about in your.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Neighborhood, you can't replace that.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And we know that that's actually a big contributor to mortality.

[Cozy Earth Narrator]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Not having, like, social connection makes you live long. So the real life in person, social connection, even those passing connections are sort of linked to longevity. So hopefully that will continue to be important. So, you know, as a urologist, I see a lot of patients who struggle with low desire, low sexual desire. So I, I wonder if, like, as people start directing more emotional and sexual energy to AI chatbots or, you know, sex robots in the future, do you think that may shift people's interest in desire or for a human person, right. Like, they're like, oh, I get my cup filled with this and now I don't really want it with somebody else.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It's a really interesting question. I will say that from the people.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That I've talked to that have sex.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Dolls, I would categorize them as high.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Sex drive people, overall doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And especially, I think there's that honeymoon.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Period where they first get the doll and they're kind of infatuated with it and they might have sex with it two or three times in a day for weeks at a time or something.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So people tend to be really into it. For a while, but then it does slow down. There's a really interesting study that came.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Out of Germany by some colleagues of mine. I wasn't a part of this, but.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They looked at this question, right? How much does using a sex doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Change other sexual patterns and sexual behaviors? And so they compared it to a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Lot of things and they found that it does decrease what we might consider.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Compulsive or problematic sexual behaviors, depending on how you think about it. So people that had dolls self reported watching less pornography. They reported fewer kind of intrusive sexual thoughts. Like you're in a meeting and you see your co worker and you start thinking about them sexually and you're like, I shouldn't think about them that way. Those thoughts decrease, go away.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But they still wanted to have sex with their partners.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They still wanted to have sex with other people.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So they didn't report an overall decrease.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

In sex drive per se. Just some of those more problematic, like maybe outlets we might think of it. We're changing.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's interesting because I think we see similar things in porn users, like those who use porn in a healthy way, meaning they don't have problems with using it to avoid like daily activities and their partners in life. The people who use it in a healthy way for pleasure actually have more desire for their partners, particularly in females. And so I wonder if it would be similar, you know, with a sex doll, because it's sort of just an extension of how you can express sexuality, Right? In a different way.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah. And I think this extension of how you express sexuality is also important to consider for people that aren't straight or maybe even people that are straight but.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Might have some transgressive desires that they don't feel safe exploring with other people.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

A sex doll is a good way.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To try that out. Right. If you maybe are interested in seeing what it would be like to have sex with with a different set of genitals, but you don't want to find a person. And so if your doll's able to change those configurations, that creates new opportunities for you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And that's something that I found a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Lot of the queer and polyamorous doll owners that I talked to. Not that there's a ton of them, but there are some.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And this is something that they point.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To, is that, you know, dolls allow for a wider variety of sexual and gender diversity experiences.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

If you're willing to do that and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

You know, you can cross dress your doll, the doll's not gonna say no.

[Podcast Host]

You know what?

[Dr. Rena Malik]

I hate all the fear mongering about toxic chemicals on social media. But single use plastics are a real problem. And you're probably already making some swaps, like using reusable water bottles and storing your food in glass containers. But here's something a lot of people don't think about, which is your cleaning products. And they're creating a lot more waste than you think. And I personally always worry about what my kids are being exposed to after I clean my surfaces. Think about it it. Every time you buy a new bottle of cleaner, you're not just buying the product, you're buying mostly water wrapped in another plastic bottle that's heading straight to a landfill. And from a medical perspective, a lot of these conventional cleaners contain undisclosed chemicals that you're literally putting all over your floors and counters. That's why I switched to branch basics. It's a concentrate, which means one bottle replaces 13 plastic bottles. You'd normally buy 13 bottles from one. You're literally reducing your plast over 90%. It's made from plant and mineral based ingredients and it's human safe and biodegradable, making it perfect for families, especially those with kids or pets. The starter kit gives you that concentrate plus reusable bottles. So you just add water at home? No shipping water across the country in heavy plastic bottles. It's just smarter. Plus it actually works. I use it on everything from countertops to my laundry at $3.25 per bottle. When you break it down, you're spe creating less waste. Head to branchbasics.com and use code rena for 15 off your starter kit. That's R E N A for 15 off your first order of a starter kit. One concentrate, 13 refills, less waste, less exposure to questionable chemicals, and honestly, one less thing to worry about. Check it out. Branchbasics.com Rena yeah, and I will say.

[Podcast Host]

I, you know, I spoke to a researcher before and we talked about like VR and how it can actually be used to help people who are struggling with sex. So for example, if you have a partner who has a lot of anxiety around sex or pain with penetration for a female that you can use, like being in those scenarios virtually and maybe even with a sex doll to sort of like decrease anxiety, you know, be in a safe, controlled environment to practice or to deal with some of the, the challenges that you have with sex. So I do think that maybe, you know, in a, in a clinical way or in a way to decrease sexual dysfunction, it could be helpful.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah, people have talked about those applications. I think there's a lot of interesting.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Opportunities to use sex dolls in those more therapeutic clinical settings.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Another thing that people have brought up as a possibility is using them as a way to decrease prison rape and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Making them available to prisoners. So, you know, it's not something people want to talk about and prisoners often unfortunately are. Their rights are not considered in polite conversation.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But they are an important group of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

People and they do have rights.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And if there's anything that we can.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Do to decrease prison rape, I think it's something that we should seriously consider.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's actually very interesting and probably very beneficial. Yeah. I want to shift gears a little bit. I know that you wrote a chapter on the very first Dahl brothel, CY brothel, which is in Berlin. Tell us a little bit about like what, what the experience is for the person who would go to that brothel and like what's the controversy around that?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Sure. Well, I'll say, I don't know that they're actually the first, but they're probably the first that has been able to establish a successful long term business plan that is not illegal. So we've seen some in Japan, we've.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Seen some in South Korea, we've seen some in Canada. They usually get driven out of town, moral panic surrounds them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But yes. So what's interesting about Cybrothel is they.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Have a very different model than the other sex doll brothels that have come before them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Previous sex doll brothels. They have a doll, they've got a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Room, you pay a fee, you've got.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

The room for a period of time.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

You use the doll, you give it back to them, they clean it and you, you move on.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Cybrothal wanted to enhance the experience a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Little bit, so they developed a system.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

That they call Analog AI where what.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Happens is they have these dolls, they.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Have Persona that they've developed for them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That you can see on their website and it talks about their interests, it talks about, you know, how they're dressed and what they're interested in doing sexually. You book a period of time with the dollar, you go to cyber, although they have a flat.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

What will happen is that while you're in the room there are microphones and cameras that allow an off site sex worker to watch you and interact with you. But they do it by acting through the doll's perspective.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

So you hear through the speakers the doll talking to you. You hear them asking you to do things, asking you to undress, address them, asking you to touch them, moaning, things like that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So it's not really artificially intelligent.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Right. It's this person in the off site.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Room that's doing it and making it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Feel like it's real.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And this is all happening above ground, right?

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The, the people that do this know that's what's happening. And you can actually select not to have the analog AI experience and just book the doll.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But it's been very successful.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

They've been around for a couple years now.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Now it's in Berlin, which has a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Very different sex culture and approach to sex work than most other places.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But they get a lot of users.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Who.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You know, are interested in kind of the novelty of it. Like, this is weird, this is different, this is interesting.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I want to try it out. They've got people who are in couples.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And they want to have a threesome. And this is even closer to a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Real threesome than just a sex doll, but still not with another person.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And then they also have kind of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Your more usual clientele, people that are just, I want a sex worker, I want to have a sexual experience, I want to pay for it, and then it's over.

[Podcast Host]

Cheaper, I imagine, than a sex worker can be cheaper.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You know, they have different rates. Like you can book an overnight with.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

It, which is pretty expensive.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But I think overall it's probably cheaper.

[Podcast Host]

I think as a sort of looking at a big picture. What's like some misconceptions about this whole space that you w. That people would sort of. That you could clear up or that frustrate you?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It's a really good question. I think one of the misconceptions that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I always try to address is going back to what I said earlier, that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

The vast majority of at least doll users have been in successful relationships and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

So pushing back against the stereotype of.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

People and as socially inept, socially awkward, angry, misogynistic incels.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

There are some of those, but it's not the majority of users.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

They are coming to doll ownership from.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

A very different place based on their life experience and what has or hasn't happened for them in some cases.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I think another thing that I like to stress is, you know, when people first become interested in this topic, they.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Want to jump straight to the sex robot bots.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And that is just not the majority.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Of the user base. And so if we want to think.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

About this empirically and what's really happening.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

We need to pay more attention to the doll users and the AI companion users, because that's the majority of people that are out there. Sex robots are just so expensive and rare and few and far between that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

We'Re just not there yet. Technologically, we might be there.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I understand why people might want to think about it. It is interesting, interesting. But that's still a little ways away.

[Podcast Host]

How long do you think it'll be until we have these sort of in mainstream, like, meaning, like everyone knows about them, Just like you know about a sex toy, that sort of thing.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I think they're already mainstream and not everybody knows about them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Sex robots have been a part of the cultural zeitgeist for almost 100 years. You can go back to Metropolis, which is a film from like Weimar Republic days, like 1937 or something like that, maybe 1927. I can't remember the year.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But at any rate, people have known.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

About the idea of sex robots for a long time.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And people send me memes all the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Time about sex robots and stuff.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So they're mainstream in that sense. As far as maybe mainstream with acceptance or people being open to using them.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Or people actually knowing somebody that has one or has used one that is further away.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I don't know if it's going to be the cost that changes it or.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

If it's going to be cultural attitudes, but I would say at least two or three decades, probably.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Interesting.

[Podcast Host]

So if you had to give advice to our audience about people navigating sort of these technologies, what would it be?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I think the first is if you want to get the best product for you, you need to understand what it is you actually want. And if it's just a masturbation device.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

There'S a lot of products out there that are cheaper, that are easier to use and easier to conceal. And so I might recommend maybe using like a torso or something like that first and then working your way up to a doll, because a doll is a really big commitment. Like I said, dressing it, cleaning it, moving it around, everything like that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So do your research, maybe try out.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Some other products first.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I also recommend talking to other users because, you know, there are people out.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

There that have been doing this for decades. There are people out there that have tried all kinds of different dolls and different configurations, and they can give you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You really good advice.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

These communities are not hard to find, and they're very active. I mean, that's one of the things that I've really come to appreciate is they talk to each other, they're friends with each other, they're very supportive.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It's a great community.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And so enmesh yourself in those communities. Talk to people, find out what's good and what's not good.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And the same goes for chatbots, now.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

That there's more options out there. Look at what they offer, look at the pricing, look at who they cater to. Some of them are better for people of, you know, different sexual orientations.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So do that research first and it's.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Going to get you what you actually want.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. Is there something that you're working on now that you'd want to share, something you're excited about?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I am currently working on my first book, so be on the lookout for that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

It's probably a couple years down the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Line, but I've got some other projects.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

In the short term that should be coming out out more research on users. And kind of one of the next studies I'm going to be looking at is pornography that includes sex dolls in it. And looking at how that is maybe different from pornography that doesn't include sex dolls. And getting to this question that we brought up earlier of, you know, are people using sex dolls to act out violent sexual fantasies or problematic or illegal sexual fantasies? Fantasies, and is that making its way into pornography?

[Podcast Host]

People respond to your sort of area of research in sociology. Like, I. I feel like obviously I live in a different world because I'm a urologist, but I think are most people pretty accepting?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

You know, I've given presentations at a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Number of sociology conferences at this point and, you know, talked with students about it and grad students and things like that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I find that people are very interested in the topic, but they don't necessarily see it as important or the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

It's not like real sociology in some ways, I think, is how people would think about it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Like the important work that people are.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Doing on education and socialization and political polarization, that's the real sociology work. And this stuff is just the. The nuts, the sluts and the perverts, as we say in sociology.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So there's a fascination with it, but a reluctance to include it in kind.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Of the mainstream stuff.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But people are always asking questions. I always have fun giving talks at conferences. And I think overall it's been accepted pretty well. I think the European psychologists are the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Most open to it. They seem more open into questions about sexuality and technology.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I would argue it's just as important, if not more. Right. Because I think sex is such a pervasive part of our lives. And I think that saying it's just for the small subset of people who are interested in that is like, there's real future implications, as I've talked about a lot. So thank you for your work. I really appreciate it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

No, thank you. And I agree. And I think there is a growing acknowledgment. Of the importance of sexuality in sociology more generally. It's just, I'm on the fringe of the fringe.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Right. I'm pretty far out there.

[Podcast Host]

So we ask at the end of our podcast we ask a few questions to everybody. So. And they can be about sociology, they can be about you, they can be about anything really. First off is something you know now that you wish you knew earlier.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I know now how hard it is to do research and I feel like.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Like when I was a precocious grad.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Student or undergrad, it was really easy.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

For me to criticize research and the things that they could have done better.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And now I've gained a better appreciation for even the smallest incremental research accomplishment.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Is something that should be celebrated and cherished.

[Podcast Host]

Instead of criticizing it, we can learn from it and do better. But it's, it's, it's, it is very difficult. What's a non negotiable something you have to do every day?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

I have to be caffeinated.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I, I do personally have to be caffeinated. And if you are a fellow caffeinated person, you know the need.

[Podcast Host]

I'm with you. I'm with you. I, you know, I do a lot of like lifestyle counseling for people like you drink too much, caffeine is affecting your bladder. But I tell them like, I will not take your coffee because I love my coffee and I wouldn't give it up. So have one cup. Just don't have one, like five.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

So.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

But yeah, I've gotten, I've gotten myself down to about two caffeinated drinks a.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Day and that gets me through.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, as long as it's not affecting your bladder, you know, health, I think it's okay. Tell me a life hack or health hack you would share.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I think the biggest health hack for.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Me that's really changed the way that.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I approach exercise and.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Fitness generally is tracking it makes such a huge difference. Working out. I don't want to say with a purpose, but just collecting that information on.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

You know, how many reps you did or how fast you ran or how far you ran or whatever. Giving yourself that metric or that bar makes your workouts so much more effective. And then you can see your progress.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

And then that progress motivates you to keep coming back, back and it's really.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Changed my approach to it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, it's a gamifies that. I love that. If you couldn't be a sociologist, what would you be?

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

My wife and I talk about this a lot. You know, what would be the Next thing that we would do if we were to leave academia, I go back and forth. There's a part of me that would love to just work at a ski.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Resort and be like a ski bum lifty, but I know that's not going to pay the bills.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So more realistically, what I would like to do is open an Irish pub.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

In a ski town.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

So that way I get to actually make some money while also still getting.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

To ski and be outside as much.

[Podcast Host]

As possible, own a pub, because that would be so fun.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

It's probably a lot of work.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

It's probably a lot of late nights. I don't do many late nights anymore, but I could do it again if I had to.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

That's cool. All right.

[Podcast Host]

And then lastly, if you have any suggestions for guests for the podcast, like.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Maybe one or two guests, I'd love to hear it.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

If you were able to get Simon Dube.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, Yeah, I have him. I have him on the list. Yeah.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Okay. Yeah. And you can drop my name.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

I know Simon well said that I came on. He.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

He does some work in this field.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

But he also has been doing some work on space sexology that is very interesting and kind of thinking about the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Implications of if we start traveling across.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The galaxy or within the solar system.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

People are going to have sex. And what does that mean for, you.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Know, reproduction and, you know, sexual health and sexual fitness and all those kinds of questions.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Yeah. So Simon's doing some really interesting work.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Work.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Would love to have him on.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

If you wanted to look more into.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

The industry side of sex tech, you could look at. I'm not sure if I'm saying her.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Name right, but Bernie Cole. Okay.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Or Bryony Cole. B R Y O N Y Cole.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

She is like a sex tech entrepreneur who's really trying to one, make sex.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Tech more profitable for more people, but.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Also bring in kind of that feminist ethic of care.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

And how do we make sex tech that doesn't recreate problematic situations and actually helps people like, it's like they say it's going to.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Zara Stardust in Australia is another feminist sex tech person who knows, like, the.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

AI stuff a lot better than I do do. I would recommend them for sure.

[Podcast Host]

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been, like, so fun and so educational and I think our audience will really like it.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

So thank you so much.

[Dr. Ken Hansen (continued or co-speaker)]

Yeah, of course.

[Dr. Ken Hansen]

Thanks for having me on. It was a fun conversation.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you guys for joining me on today's episode of the renamelic MD Podcast. If you guys love that conversation, do me a solid or make sure you are subscribed to the podcast either on YouTube or on Spotify or Apple. This helps our podcast get to more.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

People around the world who need it.

[Podcast Host]

And if you can me an extra solid, leave a rating or review.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

It takes literally seconds and it helps boost the podcast as well.

[Podcast Host]

And as always, you want to take care of yourself because you are worth it.