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Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Moment: Sexless Marriage Truths: Why It Happens [And How to Fix It] ft. Keeley Rankin
00:21:26
In this episode, Dr. Rena Malik, MD and Keeley Rankin tackle the challenges of sexless marriages, communication about intimacy, and the effects of technology like porn and AI on relationships. They provide expert guidance on addressing mismatched desires and building healthier, more open conversations around pleasure and connection.
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- [00:00]
A
If someone's sitting at home and they're listening to this and they're like, oh, you know, I am in a sexless marriage, and I don't know the first thing. So I. I asked my partner to talk about it, and she said no and that. And now here I am, and I've been in a sex marriage, what is the next step forward for them?
- [00:17]
B
Like, the partner just said, absolutely, no, I won't have any conversation about it.
- [00:21]
A
Yeah, I feel like that happens. I feel like that happens more than, you know.
- [00:26]
B
Yeah. I guess my next question would be to ask them why, but no. Like, they're not willing to engage at all around any of this.
- [00:34]
A
Yeah. They're like, no, I'm fine with things the way they are.
- [00:35]
B
Oh, okay. I'm fine with things the way they are.
- [00:37]
A
And I don't want to have.
- [00:38]
B
Won't talk about it at all, but.
- [00:39]
A
I also don't want to change it. Like, I don't want to talk about it. Okay.
- [00:42]
B
Yes, that's very common. So when one person is fine with having no sex and the other person is not fine.
- [00:49]
A
Correct?
- [00:50]
B
Yeah, it's. I've worked with quite a few couples in that situation, and obviously by the time they end up in my room, that person has decided at least to show up and have conversations about. About it. So it's tricky if someone's not willing to put in any effort whatsoever. I mean, that's heartbreaking. And I have worked with couples where that is the case. Like, the partner is like, no, I don't want to. So in those situations we explore, like, okay, you are in a relationship that you want to stay in, and this person is not willing to be physically intimate with you. How do we process that grief? And what does it look like your options are to have solo sex, have affairs, outsource your sexual needs? Like, is that something, you know, sometimes that's on the table for some people and sometimes it's not. So it's sort of looking at, like, how do we respect that person's choice to say, like, I'm not interested in being sexual? Because that is a choice that every person gets to make. And giving the person who does want to be sexual those needs. Now, those are very extreme cases. I think most often what's happening is the one person who's saying, like, I don't want to be sexual has a lot of other stuff going on with their sexuality. They either feel a lot of shame or disappointment or something's happened, doesn't feel good, pleasure doesn't Feel good. They've never actually explored anything sexually that feels good. So I think it just depends on who you're partnered with. But that might be the place to start is like, hey, letting them know, like, I'm not sure that I want to stay if this is true. I'm not sure that I want to stay in this relationship that's, that is touchless and erotic. Less. Can we start to have a conversation about pleasure? Like I'm interested in your pleasure, not just mine, and sort of open up the conversation in some direction.
- [02:51]
A
I find that it's often just that like the partner and this is not always the case, but like the partner is going through hormonal changes. They're also got lots of stressors in their life. Women tend to take the burden of childcare, of aging parents, of all these sorts of things. And now everyone's working like before, you know, decades, generations past, women didn't always work outside the home. But now everyone's working so they also have their stresses of work. And so I think all those things combined makes it very challenging. And I think like it's, I think when women say no, and I hope this is true, is that they're just like, I, I cannot add this to my list of to dos right now.
- [03:30]
B
Right. So I think it depends on when someone's saying no, what they're saying no to. If it's just like, I can't think about this right now because there's so many different things going on and you know that about your partner, it might be like, hey, you seem really overwhelmed. Are there things that I can do to take stuff off of your plate? Those are all really wonderful and. But what's true is it's not just women who don't want sex. There' plenty of maps that decide like, you know what, it's just not, I'm just not interested in that right now. And so then it becomes this piece of like, where's the attraction? Is there attraction? Is there any desire? And one of the things that I see a lot with people that I, I think it's not discussed enough is the one person with lower desire or no desire, they're not experiencing pleasure and they feel really hopeless around that. Like there's no desire, there's no energy. They've had their hormones checked, they've done all the different things, the Stanford studies, the whatever, whatever, and they're still just don't feel erotic energy. And when you start to get into the conversation with them around like what's pleasurable and they Just don't know. And their partner's like, you have to know, you have to know. And it can be confusing to be with someone that feels like maybe they knew at some point or however they're reporting it. And then suddenly it feels like their sexuality has changed so much and their desire has changed so much that they're really not sure where it's at. I think of that as like a really exciting moment to get curious and start to explore a lot of different things and see what's in there. But it can feel very terrifying for somebody in a relationship with somebody else that's like, I have no idea what turns me on and I don't know when I'll find that. Yeah. And so holding space for that is.
- [05:15]
A
And I think when you find someone who you love, who like genuinely loves you, and they're like, no, often it's no, not right now, or no, or, or no, yeah. But like, it's not, it's usually not a no, close the door. But it might sound like that, it might sound like no, like they might just make no. And you're like, wait, what? No, not ever. And so I think that's where like, okay, maybe that's not the moment to ask again, but just be like, look, I know last time you said no, you know, maybe in a couple days, a week, whatever. I know last time you said no. I'm wonder if that means no forever or no not right now.
- [05:47]
B
Right.
- [05:47]
A
Because I think that does come down to like, okay, so what, what do we do next then? Like, I love you and I want to move forward and I want to like, then, yeah, do we continue in a relationship and I find my needs met elsewhere. Do we not continue the relationship? What are the options here? Right, Absolutely. And because it is a relationship, we have to work together.
- [06:07]
B
Yes, absolutely. And I think that ability to listen in a non defensive space and to not treat any conversation about sex as a one and done. Like, I cannot emphasize this enough. These are ongoing, continual conversations and we want to give people lots and lots of space to think about them and to come back over and over again over the years of like, what does sex mean to you? Because it will change. It will change over the arc of a relationship. What it meant the first year of your marriage is not going to mean the same thing 10 years into your marriage. It just won't.
- [06:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. The last thing I want to talk about is, you know, porn and sex toys and things that are tech, that should be used as tools are often a big source of like shame, anxiety from both sides. Right. Either the person using the person, not using both, whatever it is. And so how do you sort of work with couples in situations where maybe one person is feeling the other person's using one of those tools, either pornography or sex toys, as a sort of like. And feeling insecure about themselves?
- [07:10]
B
I don't know that I would put porn and sex toys in the same category together.
- [07:13]
A
Sure.
- [07:15]
B
Because.
- [07:18]
A
I do find they both lead to some insecurities at times, which is, I think, why I set them down. But they're different. I agree. I agree.
- [07:24]
B
Yeah. Because I think, you know, porn is a curated movie to bring arousal to people, and it is not real life. Most of the people, most of the men specifically, are on performance enhancers. If you go and look at, like, actually, like, the porn stats, there's, like, seven guys and, like, 300 women that are actively working in the porn industry. I mean, it's fascinating because it's like there's. Yeah, I've done some consulting for the porn industry. It's very interesting. And it is created literally all day filming that's edited and cut and cut and lit and all of these things just to bring arousal. And so it's. It can create this idea of look seamless. It is not seamless. And even if you're watching the amateur porn, too, it's also. I mean, I guess some of them probably are. But the biggest trouble with porn is it sets up unrealistic expectations. The type of people who would be interested in filming their bodies clearly feel very comfortable about their sexuality. And they're doing things because they like to perform on camera. And there's so many different variations of that. And I love porn because it can give people access to places and turn on things that they might not know that they were turned on by. So you could, like, wander through your whole life and never find them, but you're like, wow, that was really sexy and really turned me on. Which is fantastic to know about ourselves and being able to actually close our eyes or to put our gaze onto one single person and get to know them, versus this huge excitement of the superhighway of what porn is. And when we talk about, like, ejaculation versus orgasm, whenever I watch porn, I feel like I'm just mostly having, like, an ejaculation experience. Like an. Or, like, I don't feel like I have, like, my whole body engaged and you would say your brain engaged and really, like, moving into that experience. It just feels like this quick thing that just, like, moves into that. And so I often say to people who are using porn, a lot is like, can you step back and actually masturbate without porn? And if you can't do that, then you're most likely having an overuse of porn struggle. And we would want to move you away from that so that you can find pleasure without it. Jealousy is normal. It exists in many, many different containers. I think some people veer towards more jealousy than others for various reasons. And if you do feel jealousy about your partner's porn use, it's something you would want to start to talk about and to normalize in the relationship. But we don't want to move it into the shaming and hiding space. If you feel like someone is overusing porn and you shame them and be like, I think you're overusing porn, something's wrong with you. I listened to this podcast. This person said, you know what things that people can do when they feel scared? Because that's really what that is, a scared reaction. People will do things underground. I mean, that's what we know about people with sex. If you shame them, they will hide them from you, and they will still do them. They will just do them underground, and you will never see them. Esther Perel talks about a secret garden, and I have seen that, and I truly believe it. So we always want to come into, like, this is how it makes me feel. Can we talk about all of these different things? And if someone does feel like they have an overuse, you would want to open that conversation up and have a discussion around it. Toys.
- [10:46]
A
Well, before we go toys, let's finish the porn conversation. So I think the interesting thing that you mentioned is, like, that people will do it underground. And obviously I know this to be true. But I think it's interesting because I see it from a lot of, like, you know, women's groups, and I'm involved with, like, oh, my husband is not allowed to. Or my husband and I just crack up in my head, like, my husband is not allowed to do that. He can't do that. We don't allow that in our house. And it could be a variety of things, but oftentimes it's like porn, right? And I just think it's so funny that people actually think that they have so much power and agency over another human being to say, you're not allowed to do that anymore.
- [11:20]
B
Like, you are not more exciting most of the time.
- [11:22]
A
I know. And you're like, you're not their mother. And even if you were their mother, they would still find a way Potentially. Right. Like, it's.
- [11:29]
B
Right. The conversation then becomes like, it makes me uncomfortable because I feel like I have a problem with the porn industry, or I have a problem with where you're sourcing your porn or you're. You're turned on by things and you. Maybe you have a belief like, you should only be turned on by me, but you're watching other women. I mean, there can be all sorts of reasons. It's just really important to talk about. I think sometimes it can be important for. In those situations for women to actually view porn. Like, instead of taking the. Like, you can't do it to be like, show me what you're watching. Can we watch it together? And that can become an issue. Like, if couples. I do see couples where it's like, they're only intimate when they're watching porn. And again, I do feel like it's an issue. Like, if we're. If any situation, you have to have something in it that feels like now it's a crutch. And that's not the point of porn. That just feels like it's now taking everything away from the rest of the. The pie that can be there and putting this, like, one tiny sliver in.
- [12:23]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, yeah. You shouldn't need to rely on anything but your brain to feel arousal. Right. Like, it could be a fantasy, it could be porn in some cases. Obviously, it could be other things, but, like, you should be able to be aroused, like, without needing a curated, very exotic, very erotic film that might be, you know, might have some sort of arousal trigger that is not even possible in real life. Right.
- [12:49]
B
When I'm working with clients, I created a model. I call it the Balanced Human Sexuality model. I probably need a better name. So if anybody has branding ideas, but if you imagine a circle and you divide it into three parts, one side is sensation or erotic embodiment. So that is like, how are we actually feeling our skin? How are we actually feeling our body? What do we notice? Like, how do we take in touch? How do we give touch? This is the genital center. It's like our physical body. Then there's relationships, intimacy, and love. So that's how connected do we feel? How open do we feel? Can we be in relationship with someone? And then the other part is anticipation, fantasy and creativity. And porn falls in the subsection up there because it is that fantasy space. But if you can't find arousal, if you can't find things that turn you on, if you can't make a mind movie into fantasy, that is a problem. And you will feel limited. I'm not saying it's a problem like you're bad or wrong or we should shame you. It's more like you're gonna constantly feel limited in your sexuality because you found this crutch. And so when I work with folks in those spaces, I'm like, let's just start to explore these other three areas and let's give you back access to your creativity and your anticipation and your fantasy because it's only gonna serve you at the end of the day.
- [14:02]
A
Yeah, I do think, you know, it's interesting you mentioned that, but I feel like we're seeing some newer science around AI and how it's making people less. Less interested, less intelligent even. Like they're not. They're not using their brains as much because they're relying on AI. And I wonder if the same thing is happening with porn, but also may happen even more so with AI things that will come up like AI porn and AI dolls and, you know, virtual reality and those sorts of things. I feel like they will become so real and so curated to what you like that you may then shut off your own brain's ability to sort of get turned on by. By.
- [14:42]
B
Right. Well, we'll be having whole limb. Our limbic systems will be completely hijacked by AI. So we'll be having. Some people are already having full relationships with AIs and their needs are being met and they're. All of their conversations are happening and there's I love you and all of these things. Yeah, we're, we're. It'll be a very interesting time.
- [15:04]
A
Do you think that we'll get through that? Like, do you think that there will be a regression to the mean sort of like people like, oh, I don't want that anymore. Like right now, I think it all feels novel and exciting and people like, oh, like AI is number two or number one uses as a friend.
- [15:18]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [15:19]
A
So, like, do we, do you think that people like, oh, this doesn't feel real, like I've never met this AI friend and like, I need real connection.
- [15:26]
B
I don't imagine that the people who are in those relationships feel like it isn't real. I think for them, they genuinely feel like it is real. I think as humans, we are programmed for wanting connection and we're programmed for wanting intimacy. And the trouble is when people have experiences in their life, predominantly childhoods that don't lend easy access to being able to do relationship, they don't have the skills, they don't have the nervous system, they don't have the ability to tolerate the discomfort that happens in real human interaction. Because in real human interaction, I bump up against you, you go, oh, that hurts. And you bump up back and then there's tension that happens that's not going to happen in AI. And so you can experience a level of closeness with an AI that doesn't have the tension. And for some people, that's really, really important. I don't know exactly where all of this is going to, but I know that I would rather have people that are really lonely feel like they have someone than no one in many regards.
- [16:30]
A
Yeah.
- [16:31]
B
And I also think on some level, and maybe I'm just too optimistic. My husband's Parisian and he's more pessimistic.
- [16:39]
A
So you have to balance each other.
- [16:42]
B
I feel like when we can build safe and healthy relationships, our nervous systems can heal. And so I think there might even be a potential where someone feels like I can go out into the real world and have more complicated bump up relationships and come back into the safety of this one. Where this person's going to say like, everything's okay. Almost like a mother would be in many regards, or the ideal mother, the perfect Winnicott mother. It's like, everything's okay, you're going to be okay. Like, I still am here for you, I still love you. So in a couple of years, I.
- [17:15]
A
Mean, a couple things that came to mind was one that like, yeah, I do agree, that would rather have people not be lonely and depressed and like suicidal or whatever. Right. But at the same time, it's like if we become comfortable with AI filling that void and we don't seek out other people, like, are we headed to a huge true loneliness epidemic?
- [17:36]
B
Right. I think it's a really big question. But we're already in a huge loneliness epidemic. I mean, we already truly are with our seniors, with our young kids. I mean, we really truly are already there in many regards. And some of the clients that I've worked with have struggled to date or make these connections. It's a real challenge. I don't have any answers to it. I just know that it's a real challenge and where it goes will be very, very interesting. It's already here though. I mean, people are already finding these connections. And if we shame people underground and again make them feel like they're like they're bad or wrong for having these, I think it's really tricky. And when you're a person who can really easily tolerate the bumping up against it can be hard to understand how difficult that is for people. Like how much it shuts them down and what a savior or something like AI can be in those situations.
- [18:30]
A
Actually, I also do think that AI will learn to build tension.
- [18:34]
B
That would be fantastic.
- [18:35]
A
Like it will, like right now it's very, you know, pleasing. Yeah. Agreeable. But I think that it will be like, it will learn that humans need some degree of tension. Yeah. Maybe elucidate that. And then I'll be like, I'm mad at you or whatever.
- [18:51]
B
Or what if it said like, oh, you're mad at that person because they did that? Well, that sounds like, you know, what do you think your role was? Like, what if it shifts? I mean, who knows where these things are going or where.
- [19:01]
A
Because right now it's actually almost too complimentary. Like if someone will be like, I mean you've seen the headlines. Like someone will be like, I think I should harm myself and I'll be like, go ahead. You know, like, yeah, like. And so there are dangers and anyways, I think we can speculate for hours.
- [19:15]
B
It's fascinating though and I think it's something we all need to be really, really talking about. And again, talking about like, how do we build resilience and how do we really teach our kids? You know, as a mom of a four year old and I know you have kiddos, it's like, how do we teach children to bump up against each other and not. And the same with the political climate and not just say like you're out. Like how do we really say, like let's stay in this, let's have a conversation. Like let's see where we can find common ground.
- [19:42]
A
Be okay feeling discomfort and be okay.
- [19:45]
B
Not getting along and still feel like I can sit next to you.
- [19:48]
A
Yeah.
- [19:48]
B
I think those are really important human skills that we're very quickly losing.
- [19:52]
A
If you like that clip with Keely Rankin, make sure to check out the full episode right here.