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- [00:00]
A
So much of the Christian life, right, is for us, but not about us. And if you think of different aspects of that, maybe it's church, maybe it's definitely the sacraments. These gifts from God are for us, but they're not about us. They're about Him. They're about our being sanctified in order to glorify him better and bless those around us more. And so when we see see our marriage in that light, it's not about me. That actually is very freeing.
- [00:38]
B
What is marriage? What is a happy marriage? And how do we pursue one? Hello and welcome to a special Monday edition of Renewing youg Mind. Recently, Ligonier's managing editor, Aaron Garriott sat down with Rebecca Van Dodevard and her husband William to discuss marriage and her new book, A Happy Marriage. In a time in which marriage is under attack, these conversations are so important. So I hope you'll stay with us to hear Aaron's conversation with the Van Dovaerts.
- [01:11]
C
Thank you for joining me in the studio to discuss your new book, Rebecca. A Happy Marriage, Covenant Joy, and a Fallen World. This isn't your average book on marriage. I remember when you and I first started talking about this book project, Rebecca. I realized quickly that this book was different from other books that you see on marriage. But before we get into why it's so unique, Rebecca, you've written quite a bit on church history. Tell us why you decided to write a book on marriage in the first place.
- [01:38]
A
There was a church in Canada that asked me to speak at a ladies event on marriage, but they weren't any more specific than that. And so I decided to explore personhood and how that applies and works out in our marriages. And as I did that, I realized there were other aspects of marriage that I had seen in older couples with happy marriages and heard little bits in conversation with them about, but that I'd never read anything substantial, certainly in relation to marriage. And so after completing that, I thought there might be a book here. And so that talk became the chapter on personhood in the book.
- [02:20]
C
Tell us why you decided to structure the book the way you did and how that makes this book rather unique.
- [02:28]
A
Well, one aspect. So the chapters that are the different topics, I realized that they weren't discussed, they weren't addressed. But the more I looked at Scripture and the more I looked at happy marriages that I knew, the more I realized these are actually fundamental and built in. God built them into marriage. So why, why don't we discuss things like time in relation to our marriages or Personhood and all these different things that seem to be just inescapable in a relationship. But instead we're talking about money and communication and other things that seem to be more peripheral instead of at the core. And so I wanted to include those. And then the interviews that largely happened because as we did more premarital counseling with young couples, we would ask them, who are your marriage role models? And it was really discouraging to see how many of them did not have solid marriage role models in their families or in their churches. Most of them maybe had a grandparent, a set of grandparents that they looked to, that they wanted to imitate, but many of them said, not my parents. And I don't see many happy marriages in my church. And so that was really discouraging. And so I wanted just to have role models. But also there are happy marriages out there. This isn't a rare thing. This isn't something that's unattainable. It's a gift, and it's there for the taking, for the believer. And so I wanted to show what that looks like at different stages in different cultures and with very different personalities as well.
- [04:17]
C
And you show that very well. Interviewing 10 different couples and one widow about what makes a truly happy marriage, were there any answers or themes that especially surprised you when those answers came back?
- [04:29]
A
I think what surprised me the most is how coherent it all was. So when I sent the questions out to these couples, I had done most of the writing and all they had were the questions. They didn't know the details, table of contents. They didn't have the intro or anything. And so when it all came back, it all fit together so remarkably. It was just really confirming that this is part of how God has structured this. And this is what it looks like in a lived out form.
- [05:01]
C
Bill, we speak about marriage along with work and Sabbath as a creation ordinance. What does that mean, and why does that matter for how we view marriage?
- [05:14]
D
Well, Aaron, I think just in the cultural moment that we live in, so many people think marriage is just a construct. It's maybe something that evolved over time. People just decide to do it out of convenience. Marriage is not held in high esteem in our culture. And so for us to be grounded and rooted and to understand, no, this is the handiwork of God. In Genesis 1 and 2, God creates man, male and female, in his image. And then we see the creation described again of Adam and then of Eve, and they're brought together in the first marriage. And it's beautiful. And God says it's Very good. Adam is delighted in Eve. They're a happy couple together. Of course, we know until the entrance of sin, when everything is turned upside down and the communion with God is broken. But what God ordained there in the garden, that is his pattern for creation and also for creation in its fallen state. But the marvelous reality, of course, is that in Christ there is redemption for marriage. And we see it is God who comes to Adam and Eve in the garden on the heels of their sin, on the heels of their fall, and gives them a promise of the seed of the woman, and through that, the promise of salvation, sanctification, restoration to him. But that restoration has the ripple effect of restoration as well, growingly, increasingly, in relationships. And so the beauty of that paradigm of the Gospel and original creation design, and I think ultimately pointing forward to Christ and his church and Scripture makes that clear. The whole theme of weddings in Scripture that we see, we see it in the psalms, we see it in the Song of Songs, we see it in the prophets, and then we see it in the New Testament. Our Lord Jesus, a delighting and one of his first miracles at a wedding feast. And of course, we know he's the great bridegroom, and we as a church are his bride. And so it is God's creation, God's design, and it is meant to be for our blessing.
- [07:41]
C
Now the subtitle is Covenant Joy in a Fallen World. And that word fallen is very important. Many people, even Christians today, may have grown jaded or cynical about marriage. Maybe they have experienced a bad marriage themselves. Maybe they've witnessed other bad marriages. What would you both say to those Christians who no longer see the goodness of marriage because of what they've seen in their own life experience?
- [08:11]
A
Well, the pain of a broken marriage or an unhappy marriage is very deep. It's very personal. It's. And so it can be something that is really devastating on multiple fronts and really creates brokenness and discouragement. It always does. And so when we experience something like that, understanding that our experience is not definitive of the institution, it doesn't backflow to transform what God has created. It is just our experience. And it is sin that has damaged our experience of what God has given as a good gift. And so understanding that it is sin and the misery that comes with sin that creates the brokenness. It is not God's good creation that we still have.
- [09:07]
D
And just thinking of that as well, you know, as we reflect on our own sin or the sin that we've seen in the lives of friends or family in their marriages, the scars that leaves the brokenness that leaves again looking to Jesus. The gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the answer. And whether that's by God's grace, a husband and wife both kneeling before the Lord, coming to him for grace and strength, seeking to grow together. That's marvelous. That's beautiful. Repenting, growing in new obedience and new life together. But sometimes it will mean one spouse or the other pursuing that before the other one does. And I think particularly there the example of the apostle Paul as he cries out to the Lord about the thorn in the flesh. And the Lord's response is, my grace is sufficient for you. My strength is made perfect in weakness. Our Lord is honored as we look to him, as we lean into his all sufficiency and we pursue loving him and being faithful in our part of the calling of marriage and trusting the whole of it to him.
- [10:23]
C
Rebekah, which of the 11 aspects that you cover in the book do you think is most neglected in the church today, and why do you think that is?
- [10:33]
A
I think I had never at least heard worship discussed as an aspect of marriage or as a facet of marriage. And when I started thinking about it, I found it really strange that I had never heard that before and maybe I hadn't been listening. Well, I don't know. But when you think all of life is to be worship, right as Christians, that we're made for worship. So how can this not be fundamental and core to our marriages? And so in talking about public worship and particular where the ordinary means of grace and especially the preaching of the Word are what the Lord uses to convert sinners, but also to sanctify his people, and that is what will change our marriages. That is where the transformative power comes from the Spirit. Applying that preached word. In discussing it, I just think it's really inescapable. The more you think about it, the more you experience it. It's unifying. It is convicting the preaching of the Word being there together, even in terms of practicalities, you are establishing your week based around this fundamental. And when you have been in a marriage that has been under a healthy pulpit ministry, you can see what that has done and not maybe explicitly as a couple, but as you're both sanctified and placed on the same biblical trajectory and helped along it through the preaching and through worship, I think it's inescapably blessing to a marriage. And I mentioned that I come from a family of pastors, and it's really remarkable the stories that they have of marriages that have been transformed just through the preaching of the Word, things that nobody issues, that nobody knew were happening, that came to light because of a particular sermon or sins that were dealt with in the pew during the preaching of the Word. And so it was. It's neglected this topic, but I don't see how, if you're thinking seriously about marriage, you can't connect that as a believer.
- [13:15]
C
Corporate Sabbath day worship really sets the rhythm for the rest of your week as a family as well. And so if you're struggling in your marriage, one of the best things you can do, probably the best thing, is to worship the Lord together.
- [13:27]
A
Absolutely.
- [13:28]
C
You write that marriage is for us, but not about us. What do you mean by that? And how does that truth reshape the way that couples think about their marriage?
- [13:39]
A
Well, so much of the Christian life, Right. Is for us, but not about us. And if you think of different aspects of that, maybe it's church, maybe it's definitely the sacraments. These gifts from God are for us, but they're not about us, they're about Him. They're about our being sanctified in order to glorify him better and bless those around us more. And so when we see our marriage in that light, it's not about me. That actually is very freeing because self is such an all consuming idol. And when we're not serving self, we are free to use marriage in the ways that God has ordained. And that is freeing and it brings blessing.
- [14:28]
C
You also make the striking point that feeling happy with no context or boundaries for the happiness can lead to distortion and spiritual death. You write some marriages are happy, that should not be. Can you unpack that for us?
- [14:43]
A
Yes. Well, in the book, I talk about Ahab and Jezebel as one of the many marriages that scripture talks about and shows us. And it's this couple who seem to be very compatible, very much on the same page when it comes to goals and how to reach them, helping each other with that. And so if we couldn't see what the goals were and the results, we might think, oh, this is a happy marriage. But when you see what is actually the fruit of that marriage, it's death. It is their own deaths. It's the deaths of people around them physically, and it's also the spiritual death of the nation. So when we're happy and it is not bounded by scripture and the good lines that the Lord has set for us, then it will end in death. And I think you see this all over in our culture, maybe on a college campus where the hookup culture promises happiness. And it might be happy in the moment, but the brokenness that it leaves behind just shows how hollow and what a lie that actually is.
- [15:58]
C
Sinful compatibility is not good. Compatibility and marriage does have a sanctifying effect. It can also be the opposite. Well, Bill, many husbands and fathers feel stretched thin by the weight of work, family, life, their responsibilities. Maybe they even feel crushed by all of the the demands of being a father, a husband, provider, protector, leader. What would you say to men who feel that way when they think about marriage and family?
- [16:33]
D
Thanks, Aaron. I think one of the places that I would look, just even as you ask this question, is to think of the Apostle Paul, who's single. He's called to be an apostle minister of the Gospel. And as he reflects on his calling, he just cries out who is sufficient for these things. And I don't think that's a bad cry. And feeling for us to have that's realistic. We are weak. These calling aspects, the task before us is great. There's much to be done. But the answer is the same answer that that Paul found. It's in looking to Christ and seeking to prayerfully, I think, talk together as a husband with your wife. Seek to work through what proportions of time and investment, how to go about that? Seek out an older godly couple, an older man maybe in your church, who you see, he loves his wife and he's raised his children, maybe his grandchildren now. And you see from a distance that he's a man who loves the Lord and they seem to be doing well. And so ask him, how did you navigate these things? How did you find balance in the midst of all these tugs and pulls, when I really don't feel very competent to do these things. One other thing I would say is taking small steps. There are things like leading family worship or maybe reading the Bible and praying with your wife. Maybe you've never done anything like that before. Talk about it, say, hey, honey, this is something that's been on my heart. I want to try this. I feel awkward about it. Can we try to do this together and just take the step to do it, looking to the Lord, trusting he will bless as we step into seeking to grow and honoring him?
- [18:45]
C
Can you say a word to older saints who may have a lot of these younger couples in their churches and they need help? What would you say to those older saints?
- [18:56]
D
I would say to the older saints in our church is look out for these young couples, pray for them, love them, seek to reach out to them, have them over for a meal or go out for Dinner with them. Build relationships so that you can love them and encourage them and the right time in the right way. Wisely and gently speak into their lives, or just be open and available for them, but enable them to know that you are. That you are ready to encourage them.
- [19:29]
C
One of the strengths of this book is that it's not only for married people, for those who long to be married but have not yet been given a spouse in God's providence. What would you both say to them? Rebecca maybe speak to women in that station in life first, and then, Bill, a word to young men.
- [19:48]
A
Yes. Well, I know a lot of Christian women in this position, a lot of young women in their 20s who would love to be married and who aren't. And there can be a tendency to just sort of hang around and wait for God to bring a man into their lives. And I think that's unhealthy. And for themselves, it's unhealthy, but it's unhealthy for the church community and their families as well. And possibly revealing that marriage is actually an idol. And there are other young women who I see just doing amazing things with this time that the Lord has given them. Elizabeth Elliott spoke a lot about singleness as a gift, just like marriage is a gift. And so when you see singleness as a gift, you are going to take hold of it and use it the best ways you can to God's glory. So I know young women out there who are getting graduate degrees who are excelling in their careers and serving in their churches and being a real blessing to their extended families and just trying to make use of this season in a really good way and not wait, not put fruitfulness off until marriage, as though that's the only vehicle for it for a young woman, because it is not. We know that. We know that from Scripture. And so use this season. That's what I'd say. Don't make an idol of marriage and run with everything the Lord has given you right now because he has given you a lot.
- [21:28]
D
I'd echo a lot of that just for young men who are single who long to be married, want to find a godly wife but aren't yet. Use the time well. Seek to walk close to the Lord, to grow in grace and in godliness, to be fruitful in the life of your church, ministering to other people, helping other people. And then yes, of course, as a young man seeking out a godly relationship, trying, asking a girl that you're interested in, but maybe that doesn't work out and then you need to pray and wait and look again, and trusting in the Lord, but pursuing that with faithfulness, but in the midst of it, really seeking to grow in communion with Christ, you want to grow in godly character in serving him in singleness, even as you long for the gift of marriage and lay that before the Lord and wait to see whether or not that is what he has for you in this life. And so fruitfulness along the way for young men as well, I would say one major snare in our culture is pornography. And that is something that simply cannot be part of. A young Christian man's life needs to be put to death. And if you are hoping to be married to someone, that just cannot be part of the equation. And so I would say, if you are a young man and you are desiring marriage and you are tempted in these directions, seek help. Talk to a godly man in the church, reach out to a pastor and get shepherding and counsel and help so that you would be delivered from this snare that is a lie and destructive to the very thing that you hope God willing to receive.
- [23:37]
C
I often tell young men that if you're not mortifying those sins now, it's likely you won't mortify those sins after you're married as well.
- [23:45]
D
Yeah.
- [23:46]
C
Now you speak a lot about the various purposes of marriage in this book. There's not just one purpose, but one purpose is childbearing and child rearing. Malachi 2. God says that he is seeking a godly seed for himself. So that's one of the things blessed purposes of marriage, that God brings man and woman together wherefore that he might seek a godly seed for himself. But what would you say again? Maybe we can do Rebecca to the women first and Bill to the men to those couples who have known the sorrow of infertility.
- [24:20]
A
Yes. And just like an unhappy marriage, the sorrow of infertility is really deep. It's really personal, and it's really persistent. And so it's not something that is, you know, if you have children, you can. You can look at it as something that's easily dismissed. And it is not. It is a real grief. And so I would say in the couples we've seen who have dealt with this and dealt with it really well, they have learned to groan instead of grumble. And that is a learned skill that the Lord teaches us through different ways of suffering. But I think this is definitely one of them. To cry out to him and to grieve it in a way that honors him and doesn't dismiss the fact that it is a grief, but doesn't make an idol out of it. And they've also not let the infertility define them. The couples that we've known who have dealt with this well, they have been investing in their local churches, they have been investing in children around them and really taken a right ownership of the covenant children that God has placed around them. And that is a really beautiful thing to see. Because when these children aren't yours, there can be jealousy, there can be envy. But if by God's grace, a couple can deal with that sin and embrace these little ones that the Lord has put around them, it can be a blessing not just to the couple, but to the children and to the children's parents, and in so many ways just really strengthen a covenant community and show the beauty of God's covenant design in that facet of Christian living.
- [26:15]
D
I think as we look at Scripture as well, the Old Testament particular, we see barrenness repeatedly. And we see that it's a grief, it is a sorrow, it's an aspect of life in a fallen world that the Lord calls some of his children into. And I think as couples walk through that, it's good to be aware as well as a husband or wife that people process that struggle in different ways, grieve in different ways, but to encourage one another in looking to Christ, looking to the Lord, and as Rebecca said, seeking to suffer well to his glory in that particular calling. And I think as well to be encouraged whenever we have a particular kind of suffering in our lives. You know, whether it's a person who ends up with a disease or an illness, someone who's been in the military and has PTSD and has seen horrible things, the couple that's infertile. To realize that the particular suffering that God has given to us, while it is particular and specific, doesn't mean that we are the only ones with sufferings. Our fellow believers around us are bearing griefs and sorrows of many kinds. It might be an unbelieving spouse, it might be a broken marriage. It could be children who are apostate and so realizing we're in a church that's full of griefs. And so, yes, the Lord has given us this one to steward to his glory. But let's live with our eyes open and our hearts wide open to those around us and encourage one another, entrusting ourselves to him with this as well.
- [28:09]
C
Rebecca, you end each interview with the same question. What is your favorite thing about being married? As we close our time today, let me ask that same question to you both.
- [28:22]
A
I think in the book it's the shortest answer that everybody gives. And so it's going to be very short, too. Just the fellowship.
- [28:34]
D
Yeah. Love being together. And so whether that's, you know, going for a walk after dinner, sitting, talking, just fellowship together as a husband and wife and fellowship with our children, the blessings of family life together is sweet. I would add, worshiping together, being reminded we are, yes, we are a married couple. The Lord has blessed us greatly and sweetly in each other and we're here by his grace and we're able to worship the Lord together, but as part of the company of his church. Looking forward to that great marriage of the Lamb.
- [29:21]
C
Well, may the Lord continue to bless your marriage and your family and through your ministries, even this book. Bless the marriages of many and truly. Thank you both for joining me in the studio today.
- [29:33]
A
Thank you.
- [29:33]
D
Thank you.
- [29:36]
B
Such helpful insights from Rebecca and William Vendodevaard. This is renewing your mind. And you just heard Erin Garriott's recent conversation with the Vendorvards. They discussed Rebecca's new book, A Happy Marriage. And today only, we'll send you a copy when you give a donation in support of the proclamation of truths like you heard today. Call us at 800-435-4343 or give your gift online at renewingyourmind.org and this new hardcover book will be yours. But this offer does end tonight at midnight. The Bible contains numerous blessings from God and praises to God. These summary statements of blessing and praise are full of rich theological truths for our growth in grace. HB Charles Jr. Will join us for the rest of this week to examine several of them. So I hope you'll join us Tuesday here on Renewing youg Mind.
- [30:48]
C
Sam.