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- [00:00]
A
The way in which we are transformed is not by simply telling ourselves we ought to become more like him and trying. The heart, the fuel to our transformation, is beholding him, gazing on him so that I don't just try to know truths about Him. The great doctrines about Christ are the throne that lifts up Christ so that I gaze on him in all his perfections. And by gazing on Him I become transformed into his image.
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B
The Christian life is not transformed simply by trying harder. It is transformed as we behold Christ. Hello and welcome to this special edition of Renewing youg Mind. During this year's national conference, I had the opportunity to sit down with Dr. Michael Reeves and to discuss what it means not only to know about Christ, but to truly delight in him. Drawing from Dr. Reeves book rejoicing in Christ, our conversation explores why Jesus is not peripheral to the Christian life. He's central. It is a distinct honor and privilege to welcome Ligonier Ministries newest teaching fellow, Dr. Michael Reeves, to our podcast studio. It's great to have you with us. Thank you. And we are so grateful that you accepted the invitation from the Ligonier Board to become a teaching fellow. What are you looking forward to in that regard?
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A
Well, the partnership, the working together with Ligonier has been so sweet over a decade or so. And for that relationship and friendship to deepen and sweeten, it's been an encouragement to me to have like minded brothers and sisters to be standing together with. And for that partnership to deepen, will, I pray, be an even greater encouragement.
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B
Did Dr. Sproul have an influence on your understanding of God and who God is and who you are?
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A
Yes. So I think one of the most influential books of his for me was his work By Faith Alone, where he's looking at the doctrine of justification by Faith Alone. And that was a very important book for me, getting clarity, clarity on the reformer's understanding of justification by faith alone, what it means and what it doesn't mean. And he writes there in that book By Faith Alone with a clarity that was all his but was quite rare.
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B
Tell us about your ministry at the Union School of Theology.
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A
Well, we at Union we have about 32 different locations around the world where we are raising up leaders. And we deliberately have these multiple locations so that we can raise up leaders where they are and we provide content for them, for them to be able to build their churches up and then we provide training for the leaders to be able to raise up the leaders so that working with them, we can help grow the leaders and help them grow their churches.
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B
And this is across the globe.
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A
This is across the globe.
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B
Multiple languages.
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A
Yes. Yeah.
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B
Wow. That's.
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A
Yeah. So we have book resources. We've got a little series of ten essential doctrines of the Gospel, which is going into some 35 languages. It's in 19, I think, already.
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B
Well, we're delighted you made the trip across the pond to be with us for this year's Ligonier National Conference. Your latest work is called Rejoicing in Christ. What motivated you to write this book, Dr. Reeves?
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A
Well, this was really a follow up to another book that I'd written, Delighting in the Trinity. And having looked at the doctrine of the Trinity, I wanted to be able to press more clearly into the one who reveals to us the triune God. And I felt that there are too many Christians for whom Jesus Christ is just one more doctrine among others,
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B
one
- [04:22]
A
more thing to consider alongside other truths. And so Jesus is being sidelined and made peripheral in the face of too many. And so I wanted to be able to have a book where I could fix a reader's gaze on Jesus Christ so that they could come to know him and know him in such a way that they would adore him intelligently with their minds and know why they adore him, but not simply come to know more about him, come to rejoice in him. Right.
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B
You're right that he's not just the messenger of good news, he is the good news.
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A
Yes, absolutely right.
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B
How do you drive home that point?
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Well, I remember when I was younger, I believed a gospel in which Jesus Christ was the delivery boy who gave me the blessings of life, grace, righteousness, heaven. And so were Jesus Christ not in heaven, but I could be in heaven, I thought I probably could still be happy. And I came to see that that is not Paul's gospel at all. When Paul writes in Philippians 1, My desire is to depart and be. He doesn't say, in heaven. He says, my desire is to depart and be with Christ. Because for the apostle Paul, heaven would not be heaven without Christ. For the apostle Paul, Jesus Christ is the treasure of our faith, and the great benefit of salvation is him. This is eternal life. That they may know you, the only true God, in Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
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B
You said that you did not have that understanding before. How did that happen? Were you in a study of a particular doctrine? How did that transformation happen in your thinking?
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A
It happened for me reading Jonathan Edwards, and I was reading Jonathan Edwards, the Religious Affections, and in that he says, the hypocrite desires the things of God more than God himself. And I thought, Edwards, you've got me. It's exactly what I want. But I thought, what I don't understand is how could I want God more than eternal happiness for me? How could I ever want that? That just simply doesn't make sense. We all want to be happy. How could I want something else more than that? And I then went on to read another book of Edwards, the End for which God created the world, which was his story through scripture of the glory of God. And when Edwards shows you the glory of God in scripture, I saw this is a God so beautiful I could not be happy without knowing and having him.
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B
I was just thinking, as you mentioned, Edwards, Dr. Sproul was a big fan of Edwards, and this would resonate with him, wouldn't it?
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A
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. We had happy conversations about this sort of theology. Absolutely.
- [07:32]
B
Yeah. Well, you're right. This book then aims for something deeper than a new technique or a call to action to consider Christ, that he might become more central for you, that you might know him better, treasure him more, and enter into his joy. In practical terms, then, Dr. Reeves, what does it mean to consider Christ? Is there a translation of the Greek there that maybe we're missing?
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A
Well, I think it's a word that takes us away from the idea that we should simply know about Christ, that to know him in John's Gospel is always associated with loving him, that you cannot know Jesus Christ without adoring Him. You're simply blind to who he is if you don't adore him. And so the puritans believed that 2 Corinthians 3:18 was really the heart of growth in the Christian life. 2 Corinthians 3:18. We all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into his image, the image of the one who is the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, from one degree of glory to another. So the way in which we are transformed is not by simply telling ourselves we ought to become more like him and trying. The heart, the fuel to our transformation, is beholding him, gazing on him, so that I simply. I don't just try to know truths about him. I seek to know all these doctrines about Christ in order to know and gaze on him and his beauty. And so the great doctrines about Christ are the throne that lifts up Christ so that I gaze on him in all his perfections. And by gazing on Him, I become transformed into his image. And that's the work of the Spirit in us. Jesus said in John 15:26, the Spirit will bear Witness about me this is the Spirit's work. The Spirit opens blind eyes. The eyes of those who once had thought sin is the greatest pleasure. God, I dread. The Spirit opens these blind eyes. And there's this wonderful aha moment where they go, oh, in Jesus Christ, I see a God I'd never dreamed of. He is desirable and beautiful in a way I'd never know. And I begin to see. He is more desirable and more beautiful than the sin I once treasured. And that's the beginning of our transformation by the Spirit opening our eyes to behold a full fix, our gaze, our focus on him. Because we always become like what we worship, what you focus on. And so if you spend your time looking at idols, for example, in Isaiah 44, those who look to those become deaf, dumb and blind like the blocks of wood that they worship. You become like what you worship. But Psalm 34:5, those who look to him are radiant. And one day, of course, when he returns, John says in First John 3, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is, face to face to face. So for now I become more like him in spirit as I gaze upon him in face. But one day, when I actually clap eyes on him as he returns in power and glory, then my very body will transform around me and I will become body and soul Christlike, because I will see him as he is. That sight will be so majestically transforming.
- [11:58]
B
You reference to aha moments. And Paul had multiple aha moments. And it reminds me what RC would remind us of. That sound theology always leads to doxology.
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Yes.
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Thinking of Romans 12:1 and 2, not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed to the renewal of our mind. That's a therefore moment for the Apostle Paul. But what is the therefore? Therefore we need to ask. And it's just before then, in the last part of chapter 11, where Paul, after laying out his gospel magnum opus.
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Yes.
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B
Does he break into that doxology? That's so right?
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Absolutely. It's 11 chapters of the Gospel brings you to the transformation and that love one another as brothers in Romans 12, that transformation only happens through being transformed by your knowledge of gospel.
- [12:55]
B
I want to get back to this idea of considering Christ that you write about. Is that synonymous with meditating on Christ? I wonder if I say the word meditating, if Christians might bristle at that, that it brings up some sort of New Age practice. But have we as Christians lost the practice, the art, if you will, of meditating?
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A
I think you're right. Maybe there's a Nervousness about what meditation could mean. And there's a right nervousness if by meditation you mean let my mind go blank. But that's not what a Christian means by meditation. So the Puritans used to talk about meditation regularly. And what they meant was that you roll the truths of the gospel around in your mind sufficiently so that you begin to be transformed. And so one of the things, the reasons why the Puritans are not so popular today is because they write in what seems to us to be a long winded way, that they don't write short posts on Twitter or X, that they seem to be incapable of doing that. But there's a reason for it, because they're not wanting to download a quick bit of information for you, they're deliberately wanting to say, stop, consider Him. And so they will hold Jesus Christ before you and page after page they'll show you a different aspect of his character so that slowly you're considering his righteousness, his graciousness, his mercy, his holiness, his justice. And as you see all that, his beauty broadens and brightens to you. And that's a meditation. It's not I've quickly looked up something about Jesus Christ so I can tick a box. It's I've spent time and the truths have been on my mind for longer. And that's the meditation. It's letting those truths roll around in the mind such that they fill your gaze because you become like what you're focusing on, what you're looking to. And so we spend so much of our looking at the news or what's online and you will be shaped by that. You will become anxious by looking at everything going wrong in the world. You will become greedy or dirty depending on what you're looking at. And if you don't spend time looking at Christ, you cannot become like Him.
- [15:42]
B
I love your passion for this. And you write on the fact that Jesus is our brother. I think we as Christians have a difficult time believing that we are actually co heirs with Christ, that He is our brother. You write, my mind goes quite giddy and I get goosebumps as I write this. God has come to be with us. The Lord of Glory has made Himself a closer friend than any other. No, not just close. The bridegroom has made himself one with his dear bride because of what the Son of God has done. I can now say that I am flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. All he is has given to us so that all he has he can share with us. Tell us in practical terms how do we. We've talked a little bit about meditating, but I think we all want that closer walk and that we want to rejoice in Christ. What are some practical things that we can do as. As followers of Christ to rejoice in Him?
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A
Well, you will not grow in love of Christ if you do not deliberately seek to grow in your knowledge of Him. So growth in rejoicing in Christ is not something that will happen by being busy. It's not something that will happen by itself. It's not something that will happen by passivity. It is something. The joy of knowing Christ is the pleasure given to those who press in to know him better. And if you press in to know him better, you will see that he is more beautiful than you ever imagined. Because the reason why this is at the very heart of the Christian faith is because God the Father for eternity has found all his pleasure and delight in considering His Son. And so there are times, I think, when we find ourselves spiritually bored, when we can think. I think I know all the truths of the Gospel and I know the basics about Jesus Christ, and I think I've seen all there is to see. Well, the infinite mind of God the Father has been eternally satisfied by this one. And any sense of boredom is mere ignorance and blindness. And therefore you can know there is always more beauty to be seen in this one who is infinite in his beauty. And when you press in to know Christ more and find joy in him, that's when you're becoming most like His Father. In fact, there was one Puritan, John Owen, who said, nothing makes us so like God as in love for Jesus Christ, because he's saying that's been God's eternal life.
- [18:51]
B
Yeah, of course, the question of suffering comes up, and you address it boldly and clearly in this book and Life in Christ. You write that the point is that God uses even suffering for our ultimate blessing. How does he do that?
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A
Salvation is to be united with Christ. God doesn't have some abstract salvation, something called righteousness or grace, that he gives us. What he gives us is His Son. And we see then the shape of all reality is death and resurrection. To have life, you must die and rise with him to a new life. And that's the beginning of the Christian life. We are crucified with Christ and raised with him to a new life. We are born again. But it also is the pattern ongoingly for the Christian life, that ongoingly as a Christian, I have sin in me. I have sinful, wicked desires in me. And for me to enter more fully into the joy of my Holy Master. That sin must be crucified. It must die. Now. We immediately rebel at that because we want to be comfortable. He's more interested in us being Christlike, and therein lies our joy. And so he will take us through suffering for our good. And this is important for us to know that when we suffer, it is very common for Christians to think, has God stopped loving me? Has he forgotten me? Is he against me? And Hebrews 12 talks about times of suffering as being the Father's discipline. The Father disciplines those he loves. No one snatches the children of God out of his hand. He never, never stops caring for them, never stops being kind or loving to them. And so Psalm 84:11 the Lord God is a sun and a shield. No good thing does he withhold from those who walk uprightly. So if he's withholding something from you that you want, it's not a good thing, because he knows what is good. And sometimes he knows that what will be good for us will be discipline and hard times. And I know it. Very often it is the case that those who are strongest in Christ are those who have suffered most with him. Because when they've suffered with him and clung onto him in the darkness, those are the ones who have seen. Not all the world is sufficient for them, but Jesus Christ is sufficient for them even in the darkness, though they are the ones who will be strong in faith.
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B
Has this been true in your life?
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Yes, absolutely.
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B
Through suffering?
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Absolutely. It is the case that I look back at my own life and went through times of suffering that usually at the time make no sense. And you can rage and roar at God and think, what's he doing? Why would he? He seems to have taken away what was good and what was right, and he seems to have forgotten me. But God's providence, one of the great puritans, John Flavel, said, needs to be read backwards at the time. You usually can't understand what's God doing. And you need Proverbs 3, 5 to walk by faith and not sight. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. And maybe later, in retrospect, you can see the good, kind work that the Lord is doing. Because you've been brought into the life of Christ, the life of dying and rising to new life. And therefore don't be scared of walking with your Lord. Don't be scared of the paths he'll take you down, because they are the paths to glory.
- [23:22]
B
Of course, the Gospels and the letters that Paul and Peter write, Hebrews, all of the New Testament, help us to learn how to rejoice in Christ. But I'm wondering, are there Old Testament passages that also allow us to rejoice in Christ?
- [23:37]
A
Absolutely. The whole Old Testament is written for this purpose. Jesus said that if you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. And we can see this in a number of different ways. First of all, Jesus said, for example, before Abraham was, I am. In other words, who do you think I am? I am the Lord God of Israel. His claim is not merely to be some abstract God. His claim is to be, specifically, that one. The Lord God who created the Lord God who redeemed his people, the Lord God who took his people through the wilderness into the promised land. That's who he is. And so when you see the kindness of this Lord who says to his people in Isaiah 43, fear not, for I have redeemed you. I've called you by name. I will be with you even when you go through the waters. They will not overwhelm you. Who are we reading about? The very Lord who came to us to be one with us. And then we have Moses giving us the Law. What is the law? Well, we have all these beautiful descriptions of what God's holiness looks like. So in Leviticus 19, we read, Be holy as I am holy. What does that look like? Well, he tells us in the following verses, being holy looks like, come to the Lord with fellowship offerings and make your sacrifices. Holiness looks like fellowship with the Lord. It looks like, love the Lord your God with all your heart. And then Leviticus 19 goes on, do not put a stumbling block in front of the blind. Feed the poor. Love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord. Love the Lord your God with all your heart. Love your neighbor as yourself. That is the beautiful, perfect, dazzling holiness of God. It is loving. And so we see the loving, truthful, upright character of our God revealed in the Law. He is a God who is totally faithful. There's no adultery with him. Always trustworthy, there's never lying with Him. Completely full and sufficient. He never covets. What does he need? He needs nothing. And then, even more importantly, at the very heart of the law, what is the very center of the law? The great sacrifices of atonement. And we see there the character of a God so holy in his perfection, he graciously makes the atonement himself. And so we get to see Isaiah 6. When Isaiah sees the Lord high and lifted up on his throne, he sees the bright holiness of God in that place where he sees his holiness, there is the altar of atonement. And so when Isaiah is overwhelmed by who God is in that place, a coal is applied to his lips and he's told, your sin has been taken away. And he sees this infinitely holy God is infinitely gracious to sinners. And which which God are we talking about there? High and lifted up. John 12 John says Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and wrote about him.
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That was Dr. Michael Reeves on this Monday edition of Renewing youg Mind. It was such a privilege to spend some time talking to Dr. Reeves about his book Rejoicing in Christ. And if you'd like to reflect more on what it means to truly know and rejoice in Christ, we'd encourage you to request his book when you give a donation. Renewingyourmind.org you can also call us at 800-435-4343. And let me thank you in advance for your generous donation. Your prayers and financial support help make this daily outreach possible, reaching listeners around the world with trusted biblical teaching. Dr. Reeves will be with us again tomorrow and in fact, the remainder of this week as we feature lessons from his teaching series, the Fear of the Lord. So please join us again Tuesday here on Renewing youg Mind.
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A
Sam.