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Renewing Your Mind
Questions & Answers: Building the Church
00:46:30
Since Jesus is the One who builds His church, what role do Christians play in this work? Today, several theologians answer questions about the church, discerning God’s will, and bearing witness to Christ. Request The Power of the Gospel, R.C....
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- [00:00]
Sinclair Ferguson
I was converted through a sermon on John 8:12. I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. And that's a great text to be converted through, but it's also a great word to live on. He has promised he'll be with you and he will keep you to the end.
- [00:25]
Nathan W. Bingham
Welcome to the Friday edition of Renewing youg Mind. I'm your host, Nathan W. Bingham. As we live the Christian life following the light of the world, we have questions, some of them practical, like how do I know the will of God for my life? Others are more theological, like what or who does the world refer to in John 3:16? And I think it's because thoughtful Christians have questions that our Q and A sessions at conferences are so popular today. You'll hear one of the Q&As from our 2025 National Conference and our teachers will address Finding the Will of God and John 3:16. Well, with a new conference session, it means there's a new resource offer as well. And today only, when you give a donation of any amount@renewingyourmind.org we'll send you R.C. sproul's year long devotional through the Book of Romans. So request this hardcover devotional on Paul's magnum opus when you respond@renewingyourmind.org before midnight tonight. Here's the Ligoniers President and CEO Chris Larson, moderating a Q and A with Sinclair Ferguson, W. Robert Godfrey, Stephen Nichols and Derek Thomas.
- [01:46]
W. Robert Godfrey
In classical Reformed theology, what is the most historically orthodox and accepted interpretation of Matthew 16:18? And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
- [02:06]
Derek Thomas
I have no idea. Well, I think the two dominant Protestant approaches to that is that the rock is Christ, which is always a good place to start. Peter in his first Epistle says the rock of the church is Christ. So if Peter is Central in Matthew 16, we ought to listen to Peter. Peter says the rock is Christ. Others have said that the rock on which the church will be built is the confession of Peter confessing that Jesus is the Christ. The name Peter and the word for rock in Greek are related, but they're not identical, which I think does point that it's not really Peter on which the church is built, but it's Peter's confession or Peter's Messiah on which the church is built.
- [03:05]
Stephen Nichols
Sinclair, do you agree with that? Come on, I know you don't.
- [03:10]
Derek Thomas
It's all right.
- [03:14]
Sinclair Ferguson
Not being a church historian, you can't 100% trust my judgment on this. But I think that this issue did not become controversial until the Bishop of Rome was claiming authority over the whole Church and the supremacy of the Church in Rome. And until that point, there was a variety of views of how you interpret it. Matthew 16:18. And at least from my limited knowledge of the history of the reformed tradition, those various views have continued. So in a sense, to ask what is the orthodox Reformed view, looking for a narrow answer is actually to ask a question that the history of the reformed tradition does not itself answer. My personal view is nearer the second view that Bob mentioned. I think that actually that is a specific prophecy about how Christ is going to build the church. That Paul indicates that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone. And I think if you hold together everything that's in that statement, which interestingly, is not actually a chiasm. Is it, Bob? Is it a chiasm? Because that would make the prophet central. Would it? I think you have there the lenses through which you should interpret Matthew 16:18, because as a matter of fact, while the keys are given to all the apostles, it is Peter who first of all takes them out of his pocket and opens the kingdom, which is what Matthew 16:18, 20 is really about. It's Peter who then opens the door of the church to the Gentiles again through the preaching of the Gospel. So I think there is in Matthew 16:18 not just a general statement about I'm going to build my church, but I am going to use these particular individuals of whom Peter seems to be a key. And I think it is significant, as I think I maybe said the other day, that every time the apostles are listed, whether it's all 12 of them or whether it's just three of them, Peter is always the first name. And that should be no more difficult for us as Protestants than the role we understand that is given to the Apostle Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles. And I think it's partly because of the controversy that has surrounded Matthew 16:18 that we Protestants are far more comfortable about speaking about the Apostle Paul as the great apostle. He is our apostle. And we are very nervous about thinking that Christ might have given a role to Simon Peter. And then I think we can understand this, because I think one of the things we see, we see this among ourselves, that Christ has called us to a common ministry, but he has given each of us different roles. And if it Were not for the Roman controversy, I think we would be comfortable about seeing that Jesus is speaking to Peter in particular, not abstracted either from all of the other apostles, nor abstracted from the fact that Peter is confessing Christ, but that within that context, Peter did have a rather singular role that was given to him in the Church.
- [07:23]
Derek Thomas
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true, and I think it is important. Maybe this is a crucial question for next year, but I think it's very important. Even if we all agreed that Peter himself individually is the rock on which the Church is built, even if we granted that in terms of the exegesis of Matthew 16, it does not in any necessary way imply that the Bishop of Rome continues the work of Peter. And so that kind of move by our Roman Catholic friends doesn't necessarily follow. And when you look at the history of the Church, the Bishop of Rome doesn't really even claim Petrine authority until the middle of the third century. Now, I know what you're all thinking. You're all thinking, why haven't I mentioned Canon 3 of the Council of Constantinople?
- [08:15]
Sinclair Ferguson
Yeah, why haven't you mentioned the third canon of the Council of Constantinople?
- [08:20]
Derek Thomas
Well, I didn't want to confuse you. It's very interesting because the meeting of the Council of Constantinople is held in Constantinople. It's the kind of useful things Church historians can tell you. And at the Council, they adopted the third canon, which says the Bishop of Constantinople has primacy of honor in the Church after the Bishop of Rome, because Constantinople is the new Rome. And the Pope was furious. This is 381. The pope was furious because the Council had in effect, declared the Bishop of Rome has honor only because he's bishop in the old capital of the Empire, not because he's the successor of Peter. And so the Bishop of Rome refused to acknowledge Canon 3 of the Ecumenical Council. So it's very interesting. The Church as a whole gathered in an ecumenical council, says something about the Bishop of Rome, and the Bishop of Rome rejects it. So this notion that the voice of the ancient Church is unified in declaring the role of the Bishop of Rome is simply untrue. Is that profoundly helpful?
- [09:47]
Sinclair Ferguson
Well, it's funny.
- [09:52]
Derek Thomas
That'S all I'm here for.
- [09:54]
Sinclair Ferguson
I think, you know, we need to go on to more questions, don't we, Chris? But it is, I think it's interesting, just by way of confession, when I was a young teenager seeker, I saw an advert for 21 lessons about the Christian faith. And I sent off for them and they came to me in a brown envelope. And I realized they'd come from the Catholic Truth Society. So in the interest of full disclosure, my name may be somewhere down in the dungeons of the Vatican as somebody to just keep your eye on. But even as a teenager I noticed in all of these 21 lessons, I used to get up early on Tuesday and Thursday morning because I was frightened my mom and dad would discover what was happening. But even as a teenager I noticed that they would have some Bible material and then the transition would be and is it not reasonable to think, and I used to think as a dark minded Scottish boy, I don't actually see that as being reasonable because it doesn't grow out of the passages that you've indicated to me. And then later on I realized that the arguments that were used for the papacy were always extra biblical arguments. Isn't it reasonable to assume that since we're in the Empire and there needs to be a succession plan, that so in the Church there also should be a succession plan? And I think it dawned on me then that actually the big difference between Roman Catholics and Protestants at ground level is we believe that God has spoken exclusively in his word. And the Roman Catholic believes that there are two strands of revelation. One is God's word and the other is the strand of sacred tradition. And inevitably, when you have a second strand of revelation, the second strand trumps the first strand. That statement has no political reference, by the way. That's true of the charismatic movement and it's true of Roman. By and large, it's true of Roman Catholics. Even the Roman Catholic leaders who have expressed in places very fine biblical theology, will then add, and here is what the Church believes. And that is a radical distinction between ourselves and Rome. And I'm just agreeing with the third canon of the Council of Constantinople with which we are all now familiar.
- [12:36]
Derek Thomas
What a good man. What a good man. It also is true, very briefly, that we don't need a succession plan for the head of the Church because we have a king who never dies.
- [12:55]
W. Robert Godfrey
This questioner asks if Christ builds the church, and I can just hear RC modifying that. Since Christ builds the church, how are we instrumental in building the church? How are we instrumental in building the church?
- [13:16]
Derek Thomas
Let me just get us going by saying it's very interesting in Ephesians 4, having given us six verses of how we're one, one body, one spirit, one Lord, one baptism, one faith, one God and Father of us all, then in verse seven, Paul goes on, and each of us has a calling. So that's part of the beginning of the answer that while we're all one church together, each of us has a calling in the church to fulfill. And those callings are different according to the blessing and gifting of God.
- [13:51]
R.C. Sproul
God's plan always involved using people as the means to accomplish that. And when we see the gifts, as you're mentioning there in Ephesians 4, and then as it unfolds, we see the gifts that are given specifically to build the church, specifically to lead to the maturity of the body of Christ, the gift of pastor, teacher. There's some debate if those are two different gifts or one gift. The gift of the prophets and apostles, which are those foundational gifts. As the New Testament unfolds, we see other gifts potentially, however, we understand this, the gift of the evangelist, those who have the gift of showing mercy, hospitality, et cetera. So those are specific gifts that are given to build the church, to lead the church to maturity. Then we go to the pastorals and we see that Paul and the apostles have been entrusted with what the early church called the deposit of faith. The teaching going back to Peter's confession, the teaching that is the bedrock of the church. And that has been as if you would entrust, like something that has been passed down from generation to generation, something that's meaningful and an inheritance. So with great care, this deposit of faith then has been passed from Paul to Timothy. And now Timothy has the obligation to train faithful men who will be able to teach others also. And so there is a God ordained, biblically sanctioned succession plan of faithful teachers handing down that tradition, that deposit of faith from generation to generation. In our minds we wonder why God uses us. We wonder why God uses clay vessels and frail vessels. But in God's plan he does and gives us the grace and the strength and equips us and enables us. And by the power of the Holy Spirit, we're used of him to be part of this marvelous work of building his church.
- [15:58]
Stephen Nichols
There's a fairly well known translation issue in Ephesians 4 when Paul lists the gifts he gave the apostles, prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers. In the esv, it says to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ. Other translations, King James translation would have suggested that the work of ministry is done by these apostles and prophets and evangelists. But I think the ESV is the correct translation, although not everybody, even in the Reformed community has agreed on this. And there was an article from your neck of the woods in California, Bob, upholding the old King James Version. But if the ESV translation is correct. What does it mean to equip the saints for the work of ministry? And I think part of it is to. To follow on from your address this morning and the theme of this conference is that the saints should love everything that the church represents, that the saints should value the church and speak up for the church and maintain the unity of the church, to build it up and be strong. I mean at base level, to attend, to sing heartily, to read the word, to be attentive in preaching, to engage in fellowship with brothers and sisters so that church is central to our lives. I grew up in a nominal Christian family, but they never went to church. Social historians in Britain will tell you that the generation that came back from the Second World War, namely my parents, could identify with the church, but they never went. And then the generation that followed, mine didn't even identify with the church. But when I was converted in 1971 and introduced to Alfred Place Baptist Church, the minister was Jeff Thomas. I fell in love with the church and everything about it. The people, the singing, the preaching, the fellowship, the invites to supper and dinner and breakfast and everything in between. I just loved the church.
- [18:38]
W. Robert Godfrey
Could you elaborate on John 3:16? Which group of people in the verse does the world pertain to?
- [18:48]
Stephen Nichols
World doesn't have to mean every single person that ever was is and shall be. I've been all over the world. I've been in Australia, New Zealand, Korea, South Africa, Israel, Pakistan, almost every country in Europe, Russia, America, Canada, Mexico, Brazil and on I could go. But I've never been in China. I've been all over the world. I could make that statement with hand on my heart. I've been all over the world. But I. I have never been in China. And I think that B.B. warfield is a wonderful sermon on John 3:16 and it's been published in various forms. But he makes the point that cosmos in John 3:16 is a moral quality. God so loved this world, this fallen world, not an ideal world, not a Platonic world, but this God hating, Christ crucifying world. That's the world that God loves.
- [20:14]
W. Robert Godfrey
How do you recognize God's call on your life to do anything if God is not calling you to ministry? How would you know If God is calling you to a law school, how would you know? Christ and Paul taught that you can knock on a closed door. The Holy Spirit at one point blocked Paul in Acts, then let him do what was blocked a few chapters later. When do you know when God has said no permanently versus temporarily? So the first question Again is how do you recognize God's call on your life to do anything?
- [20:53]
Sinclair Ferguson
I often point people in general, not least in relationship to ministry, to what Paul says in two Timothy, chapter one, to Timothy, to stir up the gift that is in him, the gift God has given to him. And he speaks about that in connection with the laying on of hands. And I think there are three elements in that. One is he's addressing an aspiration in Timothy. And so he says in 1 Timothy, if anyone aspires to the office of a bishop, they aspire to a good work. So I was by and large brought up on the notion the sign that you're really called to the ministry is you don't want to go into the ministry. Right. And I understand why people say that, especially why ministers might say that it's tougher than it looks from the outside. But that's not really, I think, biblical counsel. So an aspiration is something that you would anticipate in somebody, however they might struggle with it, however they might feel incompetent for it. The second thing I think that would be important would be a sense that they had. That they had actually been gifted for it. And the third element is the recognition and encouragement of others, that both of these things are true. And that may come slowly to a person, it may come immediately to a person, may come to a person through one of these three lines. But I think at the end of the day, all three need to be together. There is safety in having a number of counselors, which incidentally refers to before the event and not after the event. Often after the event, there is safety in having only one counselor. Many counselors will then after the event, confuse you. But if you have these three elements, and they involve both some kind of knowledge of self, they also involve of a sense of humility. I think that I'm willing to listen to others. I mean, I can think of people. And sometimes I think, oh, God, please let this not be true of me, that have been absolutely convinced that they've been called to the ministry, but you only need to hear them preach to think. I see no sign whatsoever in your preaching that you were called to the ministry. And that is a sign that we've not really sought the safety of other counselors. And I think if we've got these three elements, it may take time, but things will fall into place.
- [23:46]
R.C. Sproul
I think just to speak in terms of broader sense of vocation beyond the pastoral call, I really appreciate the question. With college students, this is very much on their minds, and they want to serve God. They recognize one life, brevity of life, and want to have things matter, want to optimize and be in the center of God's will. I think some ways to think about this is to just be faithful in what is in front of you and recognize that as we are faithful in what is in front of us and what we are doing, that may open the next door, and that may open the next door. So students that are at rbc, their calling is to be a student, and their calling is to be faithful as a student. And as they go through that, that might open opportunities and experiences to meet people that being a student and being a faithful student allows for them. We may not always have the clarity that the Apostle Paul has. We are not in the same position as the apostles in terms of the Holy Spirit and God's revelation to us. So we may not have that clarity. Go through this door, do not go through this door. And we just. We need to trust in God, be faithful, seek godly counsel, and also recognize that God is, as we are, faithful to him, safeguarding our steps. We can sort of relieve ourselves of that burden of thinking we will be out of God's will and somehow marry the wrong person or miss God's mark for our lives if we're just faithful and trust in him and rest in him. And some of those anxieties can be calmed. And a lot of times it's retrospective. You know, we didn't see it at the time, but we look back and we see, yes, God was faithfully leading me into this, and we can be thankful for his providence in our lives.
- [25:39]
Derek Thomas
This is terrific advice and absolutely right. I just want to recount my experience at the end of seminary, standing in the hallway talking to two fellow students, and I was trying to decide whether to go into the ministry or go on to graduate school. I said to one of my friends there, how will I know God's will in this matter? And at that moment, Meredith Klein, the professor of Old Testament, a very godly, wise, outspoken champion of God, walked by. And I knew him fairly well. And he looked at me and smiled and said, you can't. And that was the best advice at that moment I could have gotten. We want God to write on the wall what he wants us to do, so we don't have to be responsible for it, so we don't have to think about it, so we don't have to be troubled and go to all the work that Sinclair has set for us. We can't know, I think, except maybe in the most exceptional circumstances, the will of God, the way Paul did, and realizing we can't know that is actually helpful because then we're not waiting for that aha moment, but we take each step and try to see where God is nudging us. See, this is what church historians say, not theologians.
- [27:01]
Sinclair Ferguson
You know, there's a very interesting little section in 1 Corinthians which is not easy to interpret, where Paul says, so if he marries, he does well, and if he doesn't marry, he does well. And it is as though he's saying, you need slowly to work out how godly principles apply to your life and your situation, because the writing will not be on the wall. And that grows you, doesn't it? It really does grow you into trusting the Lord. And I've found for myself, you know, you make decisions, and sometimes you make them in godly ways, and you discover that God's purpose is in them. Were entirely different from what you anticipated. And the Word he gathers his lambs in his bosom and he deals gently with those who are with young. Has actually been a tremendous comfort to me that I may stumble, he may put me down as a lamb who doesn't know how to walk, and I fall around, but he will look after me. And my conversion text actually is John 8:12. I was converted through a sermon on John 8:12. I am the of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. And that's a great text to be converted through, but it's also a great word to live on. And it's really, in a way, it's another version of what Bob was saying. He has promised he'll be with you and he will keep you to the end.
- [28:47]
W. Robert Godfrey
Since God foreordained everything, does that mean we still have a choice?
- [28:55]
Stephen Nichols
Yes. The Reformed doctrine of foreordination is not a doctrine of determinism, of fatalism. God still allows free agency. We differentiate between in 21st century language between free will and free agency. We're not robots. We're not automatons. We have choice. We all chose to wear a striped tie today. I could have gone out on a limb. I brought three ties. I've worn the same tie every day. But I make a million choices every single day. I chose to have coffee this morning with no sugar, no milk, because I do that every day. I make a thousand choices every hour. And it's important Calvin. It's very interesting that Calvin plays down what we call free agency. It's almost a trifling thing. And I don't think it is a trifling thing. I think it's important that God creates us to make choices all day long for which we are accountable. And it's the basis of moral accountability that we choose good things and we choose the best things, and we are responsible if we don't choose the good things and the best things.
- [30:35]
Derek Thomas
I think we ought to note that this year is the 500th anniversary of Luther's great treatise on the bondage of choice. It's really not the bondage of the will. It's the bondage of choice. But by that, of course, Luther is not denying free agency, which is an important category. We have a will, we exercise our will. But what Luther's great point is, of course, that we always choose against God in the matters of salvation. And so we have a perfectly free choice to follow the character of our heart, which is hard and in rebellion. And therefore, we always choose against God, and we ought to at least give Luther a hand.
- [31:26]
R.C. Sproul
May I. I just want to add something. I came from a theological context that would not necessarily be defined as reformed. And I think what did it for me was you read the account of the disciples and the calling of the disciples, and it certainly looks like they're making a choice. It certainly looks like Peter's giving up fishing and Matthew's giving up tax collecting, and they're even physically doing something. They're walking away from their boat and they're following Christ. Matthew's standing up from his accountant's desk and he's following Christ. And then you find Christ, come to the disciples and say, you did not choose me, but I chose you. And you know that moment where everything on the page sort of goes dark, and, like, one verse has a light behind it. That was the moment. And seeing that very clearly just reiterates the idea that in our fallen state, we will not choose God. God. And thankfully, God chose us.
- [32:30]
W. Robert Godfrey
Dr. Nichols, briefly, since Dr. Godfrey brought up bondage of the will, mention what's included in this new edition that we have. I'd love to, because this was a discovery. You know, you're R.C. sproul's biographer.
- [32:46]
R.C. Sproul
So Dr. Sproul told me the first thing he had published was an article in Christianity today, I think 1971. And as I was looking through things, I found that that actually wasn't the case. He had forgotten about an article that he published in the Gordon review in 1967, very first thing he published. And back then, he was not R.C. sproul. He was Robert C. Sproul, and it was entitled An Analysis of Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will. And that article is reprinted in the front of the Bondage of the Will edition. So you need to go get that after we're done, then you need to go get that.
- [33:27]
Stephen Nichols
It is an important book. In my life, I had been saved maybe six months, and somebody bought me the T And T. Clark version of the Bondage of the Will with the introduction by J.I. packer. And I have to say I remember Packer's introduction more than I remembered Luther's dialogue with Erasmus. But it really was a very foundational book in helping me come to terms with the Reformed doctrine of the bondage of the world.
- [34:01]
Sinclair Ferguson
I'm the simple believer here, and I often think a really good way into those questions of divine sovereignty, human responsibility, is how did Jesus think about this and how did it work out with him? And in this connection, what comes into my mind is Acts 2:23, that Christ's crucifixion was predetermined by God, but it was accomplished by the hands of wicked men, and it was their choice. And what is enshrined in the middle of that is it was also Jesus choice. It was predetermined for him that he would die on the cross. But he makes so clear in the Gospels he is choosing to do this. So while we cannot bring God's relationship to our lives and our relationship to them down to, as it were, the highest common denominator, which would mean we would bring God down to our level, when we see the life of Jesus and the actions of those who surround him, it's quite clear that the foreordination of God and the responsibility of human individuals belong together. And they can never really be separated from each other. And we live as human beings with our limited understanding of the ways of God, with a comfort in the fact that this is how it was with Jesus himself, and so it is with us.
- [35:46]
W. Robert Godfrey
What does it look like for a believer to honor unbelieving parents?
- [35:53]
Sinclair Ferguson
Can I chip in here? Because I was given a very non churchgoing Presbyterian upbringing in which Sunday was the worst day of the week. We didn't go to church, but we didn't do anything else. And the night I was converted, a man, a lovely godly man, spoke to me afterwards and he said, now you need to go home and tell your parents you become a Christian. And my parents belonged to the war generation who were connected to the church but didn't go to the church. And I went home and I said to my mom and dad, I'll never forget it Saturday night. First Saturday night In February, in 1960, I think it was not 1863, 1963. And as soon as the words were out of my mouth, mom and Dad, I became a Christian tonight. As soon as the words were out of my mouth, I knew I'd insulted them because they had this paradigm that we're all Christians, we're trying to live the best life we can. It would never have crossed their minds. And that would have been true of that generation. Different generation now, and it took quite a long time. I can't remember how long it took, but it might have been a year before there was a recovery. And kind of amazingly to me, my dad said to me, would it be all right if I come to church with you on Sunday night? And I look back on that, and I think now, I would never give that counsel to a youngster. And this is very much influenced also by the passage in 1 Peter 3 that Bob referred to, if you have an unconverted husband, what you do? Well, you leave tracts in his oatmeal in the morning, you know, and texts on the pillow. No, you. You be a Christian wife to him. And I think it would have been better for me and for my family. You know, God has been wonderfully sovereign and gracious in that. If he had said to me, son, you're 14 years old. Just go home and love your mom and dad. And they'll notice the difference. And maybe they'll begin. They will privately be asking questions, you don't understand this. Your mom and dad talk about you behind your back. And they'll be asking, what has happened to Sinclair? Something has happened to him. And, you know, in God's grace, the damage I managed to accomplish. Which is why the words he gathers his lambs in his bosom mean so much to me. That damage needed to be repaired. And I think I would say to anybody, the first thing is, in terms of whatever relationships you have with others, be Christlike in that if you're a slave, who is a master. So it goes all the way down through all of our relationships. And it's not rocket science. It's like Bob was saying earlier on, it isn't rocket science being a witness to Christ, it's just actually seeking to be a Christian and growing in likeness to Christ.
- [39:35]
W. Robert Godfrey
I am the only Calvinistic person in my family. All of them are Arminian, Pentecostal. How can I share what I have learned?
- [39:47]
R.C. Sproul
For a long time, I taught in a college that was broadly evangelical. I was probably the most Reformed faculty member. So what I would talk to my students is as we would talk about doctrine of salvation or talk about doctrine of humanity, doctrine of God. I'd say, before we get into this, let's just agree on some ground rules at the outset. Let's agree that the best theology or the theology we want to strive for is a theology that reserves the glory for God. That seems to be a good rule of thumb here, that at the end of the day, we want this to glorify God and we want this to focus on God. So let's have that as our goal as we work through these texts and as we work through these particular doctrines. And I can't say it was effective in every case, but it was a little better than just going right for the five points or going right for total depravity. Because at the end of the day, being Reformed means that doctrine begins and ends and has its meaning in God and is doxology is the worship of God. So who will disagree with that, that a theology should glorify God and honor God? So that's how I used to approach these things.
- [41:09]
Sinclair Ferguson
Be the best Calvinist you can be. And a passage I found really helpful in that context actually is Colossians 3:12 following. So Colossians 3 is 1 to 4. Union with Christ, 5, 11 is the mortification of sin. But then Paul introduces the putting on of the Christlike graces with these words as the elect of God. And I often think what follows is what Calvinists are called to be as the elect of God. And it is a beautiful description of a quality of spiritual life that your Arminian friends are bound to notice.
- [41:58]
Derek Thomas
J.I. packer many years ago wrote a really wonderful article called Two Arminianisms. Did you ever read that? And he said one Arminianism is a prelude to rationalism, where reason is the source of authority for all things religious. But there's also an evangelical Arminianism which is excited about Christ and the gospel and wants to make Christ known. And he said in there with the evangelical Arminians, we have a common basis in regard for the Scripture. And so the way forward is to occasionally read a passage and talk about it. I continue to think Ephesians 1 has such a remarkable beginning. Paul is praising God for every spiritual blessing given to us in the heavenly places, namely predestination. Well, what do you do with that? If you're an Arminian, you know, you move right on to chapter two. I think if we can lead them gently as Sinclair was encouraging us sensitively just to ask the question, what does Paul mean by predestination, do you think? Because in a profound sense it doesn't matter what Calvin thinks, although Calvin is so hugely helpful. It matters what Paul thinks. And what is Paul saying there? And do you believe the Bible? And of course these people, if they're really evangelical Arminians, they do believe the Bible. They're enthusiastic about the Bible. I remember an old man came up to me when I was in graduate school, was teaching a Sunday school class and he said, could I speak to you a minute? And I thought, oh, what's coming? He said, I suspect maybe you believe in predestination. And I thought, oh no, I'm going to be here all day talking about this. And I said, yes, I do. He said, I'm so glad I do too. And I thought I was the only one who did. And I found it in the Bible all on my own. But I don't know anybody else who's found it. And there it was from the Bible. Imagine that.
- [44:17]
Nathan W. Bingham
Imagine that you're listening to Renewing youg Mind. And that was Sinclair, Ferguson, W. Robert Godfrey, Stephen Nichols, and Derek Thomas at Ligonier's 2025 national conference, answering biblical and theological questions from our attendees. We would love to see you at next year's National Conference Crucial Questions. You can learn more, see our scheduled speakers and register when you visit ligonier.org 2026I hope to see you next April. Renewing your mind is made possible by the generosity of listeners like you and to thank you for your generosity today when you give a donation of any amount@renewingyourmind.org we'll send you R.C. sproul's devotional through Romans spend a year in Romans with Dr. Sproul as your guide. Respond before midnight tonight with your donation@renewingyourmind.org or by using the link in the podcast Show Notes and we'll send you a hardcover copy of this popular resource. And I'll say, even though this is a year long devotional, you don't need to wait until January to start. Begin as soon as it arrives and grow in your understanding of the Book of Romans. This offer ends today, so respond before midnight and visit renewingyourmind.org global wherever you live in the world to receive the ebook edition of the Power of the Gospel. Thank you. Proverbs 1 reminds us that fools despise wisdom and instruction Next week, RC Sproul will introduce us to the topic of wisdom and consider some of the wisdom literature of the Bible. So join us all week, beginning Monday, here on Renewing youg Mind.
- [46:14]
Sinclair Ferguson
Sam.