The Trinity

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Renewing Your Mind — "The Trinity"

Date: October 1, 2025
Host: Ligonier Ministries
Featured Speakers: R.C. Sproul and Abdul Saleeb
Theme: Understanding the Doctrine of the Trinity in Christianity and its Distinction from Monotheism in Islam

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Overview

In this episode, R.C. Sproul and former Muslim Abdul Saleeb engage in a thoughtful discussion on the doctrine of the Trinity, its centrality to Christian faith, misunderstandings and objections from Islamic perspectives, and its practical significance for believers. The conversation carefully distinguishes between types of monotheism and the meaning of divine unity, addresses accusations of irrationality, and emphasizes how the Trinity shapes Christian life and worship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Monotheism in Christianity vs. Islam (00:00–02:11)

• Christianity Is Passionately Monotheistic:
  R.C. Sproul sets the stage, asserting Christianity's deep commitment to monotheism, equal to or exceeding that of Islam and Judaism.

  “There is no religion in this world more passionately committed to monotheism than Christianity.” (00:00, R.C. Sproul)

• Islam’s View of Monotheism:
  Abdul Saleeb explains how Islam sees itself as the preserver of "pure" monotheism, correcting what Muslims believe are the corruptions or deviations of other faiths, particularly Christianity’s doctrine of the Trinity.

  “Muslims believe that the gift of Islam to the world of religions is pure monotheism… Christianity has been profoundly corrupted by introducing the notion of the Trinity.” (02:11, Abdul Saleeb)

2. Islamic Objections to the Trinity (02:11–07:38)

• The Qur’anic Perspective:
  Saleeb cites Qur’an passages (Surah 4:171; 5:76, 5:19) that explicitly deny the Trinity and warn against associating partners with God, even suggesting misunderstandings where Mary is seen as part of the Trinity.

• Accusations of Logical Incoherence:
  Saleeb references Muslim scholar Shabir Akhtar’s criticism of the Trinity as “incoherent” and “nonsense,” emphasizing the challenge of making sense of “one God in three persons.”

  “Complexity is one thing, incoherence another. Paradox is one thing, nonsense another.” (05:49, Abdul Saleeb quoting Akhtar)

3. Distinguishing Contradiction, Paradox, and Mystery (07:38–16:23)

• Refuting the Charge of Contradiction:
  Sproul distinguishes between contradiction (violating the law of noncontradiction), paradox (apparent contradiction), and mystery (truths beyond full human comprehension).

  “A mystery is not inherently unintelligible. A mystery does not violate the law of non contradiction. A contradiction does.” (15:22, R.C. Sproul)

• Definition of the Trinity:
  Sproul argues the Trinity is not three gods or three beings, but “one essence, three in person,” affirming monotheism while upholding Scripture’s revelation.

  “Christianity has resisted any heretical idea that there are three parts to God, that there are three beings or three gods in any crass, polytheistic way.” (09:27, R.C. Sproul)

• Incomprehensibility of God:
  The doctrine of God’s incomprehensibility is not that God cannot be known at all, but that finite humans cannot fully comprehend the infinite.

  “We cannot know God in his exhaustive fullness. That’s what we mean by incomprehensibility. Not that he’s utterly unknowable, but rather… there are also dimensions of God that are beyond our human understanding.” (12:38, R.C. Sproul)

4. Explaining the Trinitarian Formula (16:23–18:30)

• One Essence, Three Persons:
  The “threeness” describes personal distinctions that do not divide or compound God’s essence.

  “God is one single being. He’s 1 in A, 3 in B. The plurality is in a different category from the category of being. The Church speaks of subsistences within God, you know, not three distinct essences.” (16:31, R.C. Sproul)

• No Contradiction:
  Belief or disbelief in the Trinity is a matter of faith, but it cannot be logically dismissed as a contradiction.

  “What you cannot demonstrate is that the formula for the Trinity breaks the law of contradiction… the doctrine of the Trinity is neither irrational nor nonsensical, nor is it contradictory.” (17:30, R.C. Sproul)

5. Practical Relevance of the Trinity (18:30–23:25)

• Impact on Christian Living:
  The Trinity is not abstract theology: it directly affects obedience, worship, and the Christian’s relationship to God. Sproul points out that if Christ is God incarnate, his authority over the believer is ultimate and practical.

  “It’s one thing to have moral suggestions by a great teacher… It’s another thing to have commands imposed upon me by God incarnate.” (19:46, R.C. Sproul)

• Ministry of the Holy Spirit:
  The Holy Spirit’s active role in sanctification provides believers with divine empowerment.

  “Any Christian who lives out the Christian life is intimately familiar… with the practical implications of the ministry of the Spirit in his life.” (22:28, R.C. Sproul)

• Experience of the Triune God in Prayer:
  Saleeb references C.S. Lewis on prayer as participation in the Trinity—praying to the Father, in the name of the Son, through the Spirit.

  “You are talking to God, but it is God in you who is drawing you to Himself. And this relationship has been established because of Jesus Christ.” (22:46, Abdul Saleeb)

  “The whole creation is a Trinitarian.” (23:13, R.C. Sproul)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Christian Monotheism vs. Islamic Monotheism:

  “There is no religion in this world more passionately committed to monotheism than Christianity.” (00:25, R.C. Sproul)

• On Understanding the Trinity:

  “Complexity is one thing, incoherence another. Paradox is one thing, nonsense another.” (05:49, Abdul Saleeb quoting Shabir Akhtar)

  “If the trinitarian formula violated the law of non contradiction, I wouldn’t believe it. I would reject it in a heartbeat. But that’s not the case.” (17:27, R.C. Sproul)

• On Mystery and Faith:

  “A mystery is not inherently unintelligible… A mystery does not violate the law of non contradiction. A contradiction does.” (15:22, R.C. Sproul)

• On the Holy Spirit’s Role:

  “I don’t know anything more practical than to know that my quest for obedience is not wrought simply in my own power, but that I have been empowered by God Himself...” (22:22, R.C. Sproul)

• On Living the Trinity:

  “Even in the simple act of prayer, when a believer kneels down … you are involved in the life of the Trinity.” (22:46, Abdul Saleeb)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Monotheism and Introduction to Trinity:
  • 00:00–02:11
• Islamic Objections, Qur’anic Discussion:
  • 02:11–07:38
• Distinguishing Contradiction, Paradox, Mystery:
  • 07:38–16:23
• Explaining Trinitarian Formula:
  • 16:23–18:30
• Practical Relevance for Believers:
  • 18:30–23:25
• Trinity in Prayer and Worship:
  • 22:46–23:25

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Conclusion

This episode provides a robust defense of the doctrine of the Trinity, directly engages with Islamic and secular critiques, and shows the vital importance of the Trinity for Christian belief and practice. Sproul and Saleeb’s dialogue offers valuable clarity for Christians seeking to understand and articulate their faith in increasingly pluralistic contexts.

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Transcript

[A]

Islam is not the only religion that is passionately committed to monotheism. Historic Judaism is as well, and I might add to those two world religions in terms of passion for monotheism. There is no religion in this world more passionately committed to monotheism than Christianity.

[B]

Since Christianity and Islam are both monotheistic religions, does that mean we worship the same God? We'll hear how R.C. sproul and a former Muslim answer that question today on Renewing youg Mind. Welcome to the Wednesday edition of Renewing youg Mind, the daily discipleship podcast of Ligonier Ministries. These days, it's not unusual to have Muslim neighbors, co workers or friends. In a sense, the mission field has come to us. That's why it's important to know what Islam teaches and how Christians can engage and share the gospel. It's also why we're featuring two series this week on the topic of Islam. You have heard messages so far from a 2002 conversation between R.C. sproul and former Muslim Abdul Saleeb. If you'd like to hear the entirety of that conversation, it's an eight message study. Give a gift today at renewingyourmind.org or by calling us at 800-435-4343 and we'll unlock the series for you in the free Ligonier app. So what do Muslims believe that Christians believe about God and the Trinity? Let's listen in on that conversation between Dr. Sproul and Abdul.

[A]

In our last session, we looked at the objection that Muslims have to the Christian understanding of the fatherhood of God and our being called the children of God. But we also heard in our first segment that Abdul mentioned that one of the major stumbling blocks has to do with the Trinity. Do you want to set that before us in this session?

[C]

Yes, Muslims believe that the essence of knowledge is the fact that there is one God and one God alone. In fact, the Quran is filled with passages that talk about the sovereignty, the majesty, the absolute transcendence of God, and that Muslims believe that the gift of Islam to the world of religions is pure monotheism. Every other religion has kind of gotten off the track. Basically, God has sent prophets to all humanity. They've all brought the same message, that there is one true God and we need to worship him and obey Him. But all religions have gotten off track. But Islam is the final religion of God to humanity. That's what Muslims believe and that the gift of Islam is to restore purity monotheism to the world. And in fact, it is at this point that Muslims believe that Christianity has been profoundly corrupted by introducing the notion of the Trinity. To Muslim ears, it sounds very much like we are compromising the unity and oneness of God and we are introducing a plurality, a compoundness into the being and nature of God. There are actually only two verses in the entire Quran that specifically refer to the doctrine of the Trinity. One passage in the Quran is surah or chapter 4, verse 171. It reads, O people of the book. People of the Book are Jews and Christians. O people of the Book, commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle of God and his Word which he bestowed on Mary. And then the first goes on to say, say not Trinity, desist. It will be better for you. For God is one God, glory be to him. And then there is another passage in the Quran, Surah 5, verse 76. They do blaspheme who say, God is one of three in a trinity, for there is no God except one God. If they desist not from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Now, at the end of this Surah 5, there is a conversation RC, that is supposed to take place between Jesus and God on the day of judgment. And God turns to Jesus on the day of judgment according to Surah 5:19. And he says, and behold God will say, o Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God. He, Jesus will say, glory to thee. Never could I say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in mine heart, though I know not what is in thine. Never said I to them ought, except that thou didst command me to say, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. So basically based on this passage. Now, some people believe that Prophet Muhammad profoundly misunderstood the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. And some believe that early Muslims thought of the Trinity as the Father, Mary and Jesus, based on the passage that says, did you say to people, worship my mother and me in derogation of God? But we're not gonna get into those kind of finer points. But the bottom line is this, that based on these Quranic passages and based on the fundamental notion that there is one God, Muslims have denied the doctrine of the Trinity. And so they accuse Christians of committing not only a blasphemy by claiming that there is more to that oneness of God, but that they also commit logical fallacy that the doctrine of the Trinity basically is an incoherent, illogical notion that Christian themselves don't know most of the time what it is that they're supposed to believe, to say nothing of trying to explain or defend this to an outsider. There is a Muslim theologian by the name of Shabir Akhtar. He studied at Cambridge. He has really tried for a Muslim. I really commend him for really trying to understand the Christian point of view, what the outsiders say. And even in his book, a book I have in my hand the Faith for All Seasons, this is what he writes. I just want to read a passage for you, just to get a feeling. He says it is indeed difficult to avoid being impressed by the peculiar content and sheer incredibleness of some Christian creedal claims. It may fairly be said, at the risk of sounding polemical and unsympathetic, that among monotheistic creeds, embrace of Christianity requires assent to the largest collection of highly implausible beliefs. And then he goes on to say, complexity is one thing, incoherence another. Paradox is one thing, nonsense another. So the Christian faith involves itself in nonsense by claiming that God is one and three and three in one. And so that's the basic charge that we hear from the Muslim point of view.

[A]

Yes. And of course, as you indicated in your first lecture, it's not just this particular scholar who lays the charge of incoherent nonsense at our feet with respect to the Trinity, but also the complaint about its incomprehensibility by people like Thomas Jefferson and Immanuel Kant, and I might add to that list Abraham Lincoln, who struggled virtually his whole life with the idea. One of the things that I appreciate of this scholar that you quoted, this Muslim scholar that was at Cambridge, was that at least he was able to make a distinction between paradox and nonsense and incoherency and nonsense. He also raised the question of incomprehensibility, so that there are several things that are on the floor here for me to have to respond to. First of all, let me say that for better or for worse, Islam is not the only religion that is passionately committed to monotheism. Historic Judaism is as well. And I might add to those two world religions in terms of passion for monotheism. There is no religion in this world more passionately committed to monotheism than than Christianity. Christianity understands its doctrine of the Trinity in such a way that they are indeed affirming monotheism. Again, the very word Trinity is a Combination of the idea of tri unity and the accent is on the unity, that it's not tritheism. Always and everywhere, Christianity has resisted any heretical idea that there are three parts to God, that there are three beings or three gods in any crass, polytheistic way. Now, as your Islamic scholar said, complexity is one thing, incomprehensible nonsense is another. One of the things that amazes me is how often the charge against the Trinity is the charge that it is irrational and contradictory. And his complaint, I believe it was. Or was it Jefferson talking about the irrational arithmetic, three or one and one or three and so on. Now, at the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I think you have to go back to the elementary principles of rationality and learn to make the distinctions that I insist that every one of my students learn, as you know, as being a former student. And that is the distinction among these three categories. Contradiction, paradox, and mystery. And let's take them one at a time. First of all, a contradiction. We need to have a clear understanding of what a contradiction is. The classical definition of contradiction by the philosopher Aristotle in his system of logic, which he may call the organon of all science, the necessary instrument for all meaningful discourse, was this in summary form it is. Something cannot be what it is and not be what it is at the same time and in the same relationship. Or the shorthand for that is a cannot be A and non a, non a at the same time and in the same relationship, I can be a father A and a son B or non a at the same time, but not in the same relationship. Now, again, what amazes me is how many times the doctrine of the Trinity is called a contradiction. I'm going to try to show in a few minutes that it's not. But first, let's understand what a contradiction is. If I say something is what it is and not what it is at the same time, the same relationship, I, I would be guilty of violating the law of non contradiction. A paradox, on the other hand, is not a contradiction. A paradox. The root of the word dox comes from the Greek docain, which means to seem, to think, or to appear. Remember the heretical docetists who thought they denied that Jesus had a true body. They said he was a phantom. He only seemed to be human, but he wasn't really. And they used that word docain to seem. Paradolcan means that something seems like something else when it's placed para alongside. A paradox is not a contradiction. It's an apparent contradiction that when you look at it more closely and give it the benefit of the second glance. You can see that in fact, the terms are not really contradictory. They may be jarring to the year. But Jesus said, I have to become a slave in order to be free. That sounds contradictory, but when I examine it, he means I have to be a slave in one sense in order to be free in another sense. Otherwise he would be talking nonsense. And that's not what he was doing. He's using paradox. And paradox is a perfectly legitimate literary form that we use all the time in all of the different religions. So the third category is the one that I think gets confused, the most contradiction, and that's the category of mystery. If you studied systematic theology in Christian school, and I know you did, you will recall, at least if you took it from me, that the very first lecture in Christian theology is the lecture on the incomprehensibility of God. Which does not mean that God is completely unknowable, but rather that at the very beginning of our study of theology, we posit at principle A, if you will, that no man has an exhaustive categorical understanding of the mind of God, that we cannot know God in his exhaustive fullness. That's what we mean by incomprehensibility. Not that he's utterly unknowable, but rather we say that the Bible has revealed that much to us of God. And Mohammed would agree with the same idea, that God has revealed himself to a degree that we can understand it. But there are also dimensions of God that are beyond our human understanding. If we say that God is infinite in his perspective, we could never have an infinite perspective of anything because we are finite. And so that perspective is beyond our ken. That's axiomatic. In Islamic theology, in Hebrew, Jewish theology, as well as in Christian theology, we all agree that there are incomprehensible elements to truth. It's true in the secular scientific community, there are many things that we would affirm are real that we have not yet penetrated in terms of our understanding. Things like gravity, motion, and matters of that sort. However, it's one thing to say that something is mysterious that we do not understand. It's another thing to say that it's contradictory or nonsensical or absurd. Now here's where the confusion comes. I don't understand mysteries. That's why we call them mysteries. I also don't understand contradictions. If you said to me, there is no God and Mary is his mother, I would not understand what you were saying. I had a theological professor who once said God is absolutely immutable in his being and God is absolutely mutable in his being. The student said, wow, this guy's really deep. I thought, this guy's really confused because he gave us a clear contradiction there and nobody could understand it. And they thought, he's really given us a mystery. No, he gave them the contradiction. And the reason they couldn't understand it was because it was inherently un understandable. It was unintelligible. Now that's what we have in common. That's the relationship between mystery and contradiction. I don't understand a mystery, I don't understand a contradiction. But the difference is this. A mystery is not inherently unintelligible. A mystery does not violate the law of non contradiction. A contradiction does. Now, if you ask me, do I penetrate the essence of the Trinity, I have to say no. I grant that there are mysterious, incomprehensible elements to it. Yet at the same time, I want to make it clear that there is nothing contradictory about it.

[C]

How so?

[A]

All right. The Church has been very careful historically to make this definition of the Trinity that God is one essence, three in person. And though the personal distinction of three in the Trinity is realiter, it's real. It is not essential in the sense that it does not indicate a distinction within the very essence or the being of God. God is one single being. He's 1 in A, 3 in B. The plurality is in a different category from the category of being. The Church speaks of subsistences within God, you know, not three distinct essences. Now, from a theoretical perspective, maybe somebody can say, well, I don't believe that's true. That's fine, you can say that. I mean, I can say I believe in the Trinity. And just because I say I believe it doesn't mean that it's true. And you can say you don't believe in the Trinity. That's cool. But what you cannot demonstrate is that the formula for the Trinity breaks the law of contradiction. Frankly, if the trinitarian formula violated the law of non contradiction, I wouldn't believe it. I would reject it in a heartbeat. But that's not the case. The case is that the doctrine of the Trinity is neither irrational nor nonsensical, nor is it contradictory.

[C]

I want to ask two questions.

[A]

Go ahead.

[C]

You said the distinctions of the three persons do not go to the essence of God. So Muslim theologians and others have said either. You know, God has essence simple in one being. He cannot have any accidents. So doesn't this threeness introduce the idea of compound and plurality into the being of God. That's one question. And the second question, could you also address the relevance of this doctrine to the Christian believer? So what? That we believe in the truth? What difference does it make?

[A]

So what? This is what Kant said, what practical application does it, and so on. Let me take them one at a time. And the first one I just have to answer by what I've already said and repeating myself. I try to insist that the Church historically has been very clear saying that the distinctions in the Godhead are not essential, meaning they are not aspects or attributes or accidents of being itself. There is only one being. We are monotheists with respect to the essential being of God himself. But at the same time, we're saying, within the being of God, underneath it, subsisting within that one being are three distinct personae. Okay, but which personae do not differ one from another in essence. So it's not a distinction. In their essence, we distinguish within God, even as the Muslims and the Jews do about the various attributes of God, that God is eternal, God is immutable. Right? But we don't mean by that that there are two different parts of God. One part is immutable and one part is eternal. Rather, he is immutably eternal and eternally immutable. Now, when we're not carving up God into various aspects, we're making no damage to his essence when we distinguish among his attributes with the same idea analogically is what the Church has affirmed with respect to the Trinity. Now, the reason for the Trinity has to do with the biblical, the New Testament teaching of the nature of Christ. That's what caused the Church to affirm the Trinity. And we'll deal with that when we deal with the objections to His Deity because they're so closely connected. But the reason why the Church affirms the deity of Christ is because the New Testament distinguishes between God and His eternal Logos or the Word. And we'll get to that, if you can wait for that until later. In the meantime, the practical question well, if Christ is God incarnate, what practical application would that have to my life when he gives commands? It's one thing to have moral suggestions by a great teacher given to me. It's another thing to have commands imposed upon me by God incarnate. It's all the difference in the world with respect to my practice. And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about the practical consequences of the Trinity. I don't just dismiss Jesus as an insightful moral teacher. And I would say the thing that always bothers me about Islam and Judaism is that though they deny the deity of Christ, they exalt him as a prophet when if they really were consistent, they would say this man is a false prophet because the very center core of his prophetic teaching was about himself and his identity, his relationship to the Father and the authority that he cares. So again, we'll have to show that Jesus did in fact claim to be more than a prophet and more than just an insightful teacher of wisdom.

[C]

How about the role of the Holy.

[A]

Spirit with respect to the practical aspect?

[C]

Yes, the practical aspect of the Trinity.

[A]

Again, the ministry of the Holy Spirit is extremely important, integral part of the Christian life. It's God working in us and for us, helping us in our quest for sanctification. I don't know anything more practical than to know that my quest for obedience is not wrought simply in my own power, but that I have been empowered by God Himself to help accomplish the call that he has given to us. And so, I mean, any Christian who lives out the Christian life is intimately familiar, as you well know, with the practical implications of the ministry of the Spirit in his life.

[C]

CS Lewis, in his Mere Christianity has a great segment that talks about Even in the simple act of prayer, when a believer kneels down by his bed and prays to the Father in the name of the Son through the Spirit, that believer is involved in the life of the Trinity that you are talking to God, but it is God in you who is drawing you to Himself. And this relationship has been established because of Jesus Christ.

[A]

And it begins in creation. The whole creation is a Trinitarian.

[C]

That's right. So the doctrine of the Trinity is not just some doctrine we pay lip service to, but it has ramifications for every aspect of our Christian life and worship.

[A]

Indeed.

[B]

R.C. sproul with Abdul Saleeb explaining the difference between Christianity and Islam. You're listening to Renewing youg Mind. I'm your host, Nathan W. Bingham. Today's message comes from a series titled the Cross and the Crescent. It's an eight part study with Dr. Sproul and Abdul Saleeb. It's more important than ever to understand the differences between both religions to help us as we stand firm for the historic Christian faith and proclaim the good news of the Gospel. We'll add this series to your Ligonier Learning Library in the free Ligonier app. When you give a donation in support of the proclamation of truth through Renewing youg [e-mail] or when you call us at 800-435-4343 in addition to this series, this week's offer also includes James Anderson's DVD set titled Exploring Islam. That's a 10 part study and you'll hear messages from it tomorrow and Friday. So give your gift [e-mail] or by using the link in the podcast Show Notes to receive digital access to the Cross and the Crescent, Exploring Islam, the Exploring Islam Study Guide, and the DVD edition of Exploring Islam as our way of saying thank you for your generous support. I'm making my way back today from Australia after two wonderful Renewing youg Mind live events in Melbourne and Sydney. Please know as you listen each day that there are brothers and sisters around the world listening with you and being helped by the faithful Bible teaching that you support through Renewing your Mind. I'm looking forward to being in Anaheim and San Jose in California and Raleigh, North Carolina later this month and in November. So if you're in the area, learn more about those Renewing your Mind live events and [e-mail] events. I would love to greet you. Tomorrow we'll get some background information on Muhammad as you hear from James Anderson and his series Exploring Islam. So be sure to join us Thursday here on Renewing your Mind.

[A]

Sam.