← Reshaping Workflows with Dell Pro Precision and NVIDIA RTX PRO GPUs
Reshaping Workflows with Dell Pro Precision and NVIDIA RTX PRO GPUs
Behind the Lens with Mark Mann
00:31:45
Portrait legend Mark Mann joins Logan Lawler to share stories, workflow secrets, and tech tips behind his iconic images—from Obama to everyday faces.
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to Reshaping Workflows with Dell Pro Precision and Nvidia, where innovation meets real world impact in high performance computing.
- [00:20]
B
Welcome back to another exciting episode of Reshaping Workflows with Delpro Precision and Nvidia RTX GP GPUs. I'm Logan Lawler, your host. That hasn't changed today. This is going to be a great episode. I've been looking forward to this one for a while, not only because of the skill that this guest brings, but just extremely fun to talk to. We've actually never really talked over the phone. It's all been email and it's been hilarious. So I want to introduce you to Mark Mann. Mark, go ahead, take a minute or two, kind of background who you are, what you do, and then we'll jump right into it.
- [00:57]
A
I'm Mark man. I'm a photographer. I take pictures. I've been super fortunate in my career to have taken some photos of some really brilliant people, from presidents to film stars to athletes. What's been interesting about that journey is I don't particularly think I'm a very good photographer, but what I've learned is I'm quite good at communicating with people. I think that's such a major aspect of being a good portrait photographer is being able to talk to somebody and, you know, like anything else, like certain skills can be learned and practiced. So, you know, every day, like I'm doing right now, I'm practicing for when I get that opportunity to get Logan in front of my camera and take some photos of him, to see how he kind of moves and what he does.
- [01:41]
B
Well, it's funny. I'm going to tell the embarrassing story about Mark, like I said, and it's hilarious. So Mark has worked with Dell in the past. He is now kind of in our Delpro Precision Ambassador program. And he had the option to kind of pick, you know, a tower or a mobile. And he's like, well, which one has the biggest gpu? And I was like, well, at the end of the day, you're going to have to make this face look pretty. And he's like, yeah, send me the biggest GPU got. Like, we're in trouble. And I just, I loved it. So it's amazing. So you're right. So it is, you know, it's. I do think you're a talented photographer because I'm going to go ahead and, and show here. Let me just go ahead and share my screen. So if you're listening, you know, on the podcast, you can go to www.markman.photo.com or you can just put in Markman. It comes right up. But if you're watching the video version, you'll be able to see my screen now. So you're right. Taking some pictures of, you know, some obviously pretty famous people. So I'm just going to scroll down a little bit, Mark, if you want to see. If you want to talk about any of these in particular or anything, then you absolutely can just tell me to stop. So.
- [02:43]
A
So Ewan McGregor was coming into the studio, and I heard he was a bit. No nonsense. So I thought I'd kind of mess with him a wee bit. And he comes in and I go, oh, hello, Mr. McGregor. Do you like my Scottish accent? And like, my worst fake Scottish accent? He just looks at me and he just goes, idiot. And I went, no, no, I am Scottish. I promise. I was just trying to be funny. And he didn't really smile and hence that photo. So, you know, sometimes, you know, sometimes your biggest failures can be your biggest success.
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B
Keep going, Keep going. We'll go down through a couple of more Benedict.
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A
Benedict. Eggs Benedict. What's the Kevin Costless?
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B
That's Kevin Costner?
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A
I believe so.
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B
Oh, my gosh. He looks different.
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A
Yeah. Who else we got? Adam Driver. He's a really interesting character. He's a U.S. marine. He's a real deal. He's no joke. He's a really lovely fellow. Really, really intense and superb about what he does and, you know, how he approaches things.
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B
That's cool.
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A
I was. I always like these looks, you know, we're talking about. Photography is like, when you get this look from somebody, it's just like, what are you saying, Mark? Why are you saying that to me? And I found that that's a really good way to get that kind of inquisitive expression, you know,
- [04:13]
B
like, I am now, like, in the inquisitive. Okay, so I gotta ask. So I'm gonna stop sharing here. I gotta ask how. I mean, these. This is a list, right? I mean, this is not taking a photo of Logan Lawler. Where did you start to. I mean. And you've. If you can share. I know you photographed several U.S. presidents. How. How do you go from man with a camera to photographing these people? Like, I mean, these are a list people.
- [04:40]
A
It's a mystery to me as well. But what's really interesting about, you know, being freelance and, you know, having a career in anything is that most of the time that I'm doing something, you know, I'm just literally thinking about what's Next. How am I going to. How am I going to feed my family? Next. How am I going to pay for, you know, dinner? Next. Or, you know, this new lens? I want. So I don't spend a lot of time thinking about how things happen, because, you know, you don't. I don't have time. I'm just, you know, you're as good as your last shoot. And if I'm not shooting, then, you know, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not doing anything. But what was interesting during the pandemic is whenever everything kind of stopped, a lot of people were kind of looking for content and trying to ask people about how they did stuff. And I think what I kind of worked out was that I've always been truly fascinated by faces. I love faces. I love expressions. I love micro expressions, and I love communicating. I just love people in general. And I think, you know, I love photography, and getting into photography is a whole other story. But when I started to take photographs, I realized that what really connected with me was having somebody to talk to and having this connection. And I did that a lot. And then I think all of a sudden you do that, and all of a sudden somebody goes, oh, he's quite good at faces. And then all of a sudden, just a natural progression, you know, famous people. And I kind of started earlier. I was in college as a photographer called Nick Knight, and I went to do a work placement with him, and he sent me out on my first job, which was to photograph the two guys from Spandau Valley. I don't know if you remember that band from the 80s.
- [06:19]
B
Nope.
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A
Yeah, well, but they were famous. And then just all of a sudden, when you started to get jobs, it was jobs of famous people, because I was working in an editorial and whatnot. But to be brutally, brutally honest, Logan, and this is a hard one, is honestly, I don't care. I mean, it's interesting to meet somebody who's done something, but somebody like you, I'd love to pick your brain about what you do. And to me, that's probably going to be more interesting about picking your brain about, you know, being on a movie set. So it doesn't really matter what's great about it or how fortunate I've been and how lucky I am is that it's allowed me to, you know, have my. Have my success in what I do. I think also what helps is I don't really care if you're famous. Kind of apart from a couple of people, that kind of floored me.
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B
But Yeah, I mean, well, I'm not that famous, so we'll see a dtw and on a side tangent, you know, this episode being recorded before, but Mark will be at DTW doing headshots and they'll probably be a line around the entire convention hall. But that's a whole other thing.
- [07:27]
A
That's such fun though. It's such fun. Well, you get to meet all these people. Like, you know, you usually go to convention. You don't meet anyone. I get to meet these people and then I definitely see them the next day or whatever. Hey, how are you doing? And you know, so it's a really good way a of like giving something to somebody that they don't usually get. Like, you know, I'd like to think quality portrait. But for me, it's a great way to practice my craft. I mean, you know, you're being thrown into all these different faces and you got to make something happen. It's a great way to practice your craft.
- [07:56]
B
You've kind of stumbled your way into it, but you have like a very specific style. And is it. And I'm not a photographer by trade. Right. Like the only thing play one on tv. Yeah, exactly. Maybe I did. I don't know. I mean, my wife takes pictures of my daughter's softball team. So like, that's about all that that
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A
makes you a photographer in this modern age.
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B
It does.
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A
By association. Absolutely.
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B
It does. By, by default photographer. But with your style, like others that do similar things to you, how would you say your style differs? Like, and I'm not one to say like, what your style is because I don't really know. But it's like very like close up. It's like very enhanced, very minimalistic in a sense. You know what I mean? There's like no props, there's no nothing. It's just the person there.
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A
I'm trying to tell a story by your face. Your face is a story. You know, just like these tiny little micro expressions that people give, whether it's just before a smile or just on a smile or just after a smile or surprised look or confused look. I think that if you can manage to capture a little essence of somebody not when they're off guard. I'm not trying to get you off guard to expose something. It's not about that. I'm just trying to capture something that you do that is you. And believe it or not, I'm dreadful at photographing people. I know my family despise when I take photos of them. My kid hates it. My wife hates it, because I tend to see them how I see them and that's not really how they see themselves. And I think that's what I go for when I'm taking a photograph is trying not to see, you know, the obvious of what everybody else sees or what you want to give, but just trying to get under that. And you know, props, backgrounds, all very, very important. And some of the greatest photographers that are way beyond anything I'll ever do have, have used that and successfully for me, if there's a picture of somebody's face and that interests me, that, that, that, that blows everything else out of the water.
- [09:57]
B
So I mean, I like, I like the approach of like trying to capture them versus what their appearance, how they think of themselves. You know what I mean? Because I'm sitting here looking at the video myself and I'm like, okay, but like how, like if you were to give a tip to someone who is a budding photographer, my wife, like, what tip would you give to be able to draw that out of someone? Is it the time that you take with them? The certain questions you ask, like what's, what's the, the three tips that you would give?
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A
I think number one is that you have to be willing to give of yourself and you have to show your vulnerability because nobody's going to open up to you if you're not showing your vulnerability. So that's number one. Number two is, you know, learn your technical stuff, know what you're going to do with your camera and then that allows you to focus on that communication that you have, that couple of minutes that you have with your subject. You know, if you're smart and you know who you're going to photograph, do a couple of minutes of research, you know, find out, you know, does Logan Lawler have a daughter? Hey Logan, how's your daughter? She good. You know, and all of a sudden, all of a sudden it's like, oh, this guy. Oh, my daughter, she's great. And you've got a photo where. Whereas if I'm just standing there like, like into the camera, like, I think
- [11:17]
B
like JCPenney's back in the day with the family photos in the late 80s where it was like family there just, I mean it was like just chicken farm, like running them out, like in and out as fast as you could.
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A
You know what's so funny about. You mentioned that I've been potentially given an opportunity this summer to do a pop up of a storefront. And they asked me what I would do and I said I would do a JC fit penny type photo booth where you come in with your family, you sit down and you go. It was such, it was such an incredible. I never really got to do it but I've heard so much about it. I thought it would be fun to recreate it and do like affordable family portraits come in.
- [12:01]
B
They would be better because they were. They had the pull down canvas in the back and it was like they put it down like a white, like. I don't even know how to describe it, like 80s shag carpeting thing and it was all positioned weird and it was like smile.
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A
Didn't they project like tigers behind your head?
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B
Yeah, they did all types of stuff, man. Like you could put like a. It was wild. I mean I think that would be pretty funny actually.
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A
Like be fun like you know, to go back to. But to go back to what you're saying. So give of yourself, educate yourself a little bit on who you're photographing and you know, practice your photo photography. Practice your photography. When you don't have a camera in your hand. Practice your photography. When you go to the store to buy something and you're asking this guy that looks bored at his mind where the tomatoes are and he just goes over there, okay, make that in your head. I'm going to make that guy smile. I'm going to say something that's going to make him smile. I'm going to make him want to tell me where the tomatoes are and that you and I do that all the time in life to like it pisses anybody who's with mom, Mark, stop talking to them. Come on, let's go. You don't want to hear your nonsense. But for me it's practice. It's practice at communication, getting something done, making that person smile, making them, you know, you know, for two seconds of their day they had some idiot asking them about tomatoes and made them laugh, you know what I mean? And if you can convert that over into. When you're standing with a camera in your hand, I think you got it made. I really do.
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B
You're still practicing but I mean you are kind of a natural like you know, making people laugh.
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A
I'm telling you man, you, you come to my house at 8 o' clock at night and you'll have zombie on the couch and like don't talk to me. But it's an act man. You turn it on.
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B
But that's in, that's your natural state. That's not, you know, the photographer hat.
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A
Yeah, the photographer hat goes on, you know, you become the song and dance and the energy and try and make people feel nice and comfortable in your environment. But, you know, I like to turn that off sometimes.
- [14:06]
B
Well, yeah, exactly. Like, I can't be AI all the time. So tell me a little bit about, like, the workflow. Right. So obviously, kind of walk through. We have camera. There is software, there is a Delpro precision, you know, tower kind of of walk us through from taking the photo to what software is used, what ISVs, how the tower fits in until, like, you know, one of your shots are final.
- [14:31]
A
I mean, the tower's been very useful for a couple of things that. We'll get there in a sec. But camera. My camera today is a hundred megapixel camera. What the demands of my industry are that people are standing on set and want to see these images immediately. So my camera is tethered to the computer, basically with a cable. I take a photo. I use a software called Capture One, which is like an industry standard. And with all of these softwares, usually the bottleneck is either the CPU or the GPU or the computer. So for me to be able to shoot and microseconds later, have that image up on the screen for people to criticize. Oh, my God, that makeup's terrible. I didn't do the makeup. I mean, if the light's bad, I want to hear it. But, you know, if it's makeup, you know, talk somewhere else or this is what I really. Oh, do I really look like that? Yeah.
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B
Yeah, you do.
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A
So, you know, to have that speed, which has always in the past been some kind of bottleneck, even if it comes up fast, and then you're shooting quite fast, you got 30, 40 pictures and. And you're 15, 20 behind on your monitor. It's not great. So the tower has. The performance in the tower has blown me away for Capture One, which is, you know, my software. So then basically, the photos go onto a raid, and from the raid, I'm using a new software which is basically absolutely frightening me, which is basically looking at all my photos and telling me which ones are good or not. It's not telling me which answers. It's looking at them very fast and going, okay, you have 46 with the eyes closed. I'm using XR, so you have 46 with the eyes closed. Okay, this one's out of focus. That one's underexposed. This one's overexposed. To use this software in the past, for me, I had to kind of make everything JPEGs or it was too slow, and I could do it manually just as fast. But I ran like my whole raid the other day, which is, I don't know, 60 odd terabytes of images through it and it took about eight hours and I made one to one previews and I've never been able to move so fast through my photos. So I'm not, I'm not really using it to make decisions for me. It's just that if I, if I can just take out these 50. Look, there's sometimes I want a picture of somebody's eyes closed but if I'm doing a corporate headshot, anything with eyes closed is not happening. So if I can remove that, if I can remove the ones that the eyes are out of focus but a bang immediately saves me so much time. So run through something like that. Then I'm going to use pretty much Lightroom or another Adobe product probably to, to color correct and to do a color correction of some description, make my edits and then what I'm going to do is I'm going to run all these photos through, through some kind of jpegging software to make a link for my client. Once again, the tower is just like, what? That's finished. That's been really amazing. And as I was saying to you earlier, I love being around the other Dell Pro ambassadors because man, they really know their stuff. So sometimes I'll slip in a little question like what GPU should I set my thingies again?
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B
And then you got an answer from seven of them like real fast.
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A
But what's been amazing is their support of Walt must seem like a complete idiot like me to them. Like yes, Mark, restart the computer. But incredibly supportive bunch of people and I'm so thrilled to be on it. But so then JPEGs are made and then the client usually chooses a couple of images and then go into Photoshop and pretty much I use my Photoshop. And you know, one of the interesting things is like people say, oh Mark, I can do Photoshop as fast as you can on my laptop. It's not true. If I'm doing like some really micro retouching and I'm tap, tap, tapping, tapping, tapping, tapping, tapping. In most computers I found, especially on a laptop, I could be 40 or 50 taps behind. Now that might only be 12 seconds. But it's frustrating because you can't see what you've done so far with Photoshop. I've not managed in any way, shape or form to be faster than this tower. And I know it's not built particularly for Adobe, but it just has the
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B
power oh, it could run Adobe, it runs other things. But yeah.
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A
Oh, I mean, of course what I'm saying is like it's not, you know, it's, it's the first time even, even on my old tower, if I was, you know, painting in a specific way where I'm tapping or tapping out or tapping out, I could be 10 seconds behind and I'm doing something twice. So. Yeah, so and, and that's the process. And you know, just having the computer capability has been amazing because I've started to kind of look into some, some, some ways of using it. So I'm trying to build my first model to make for.
- [19:53]
B
I was gonna ask because like you're kind of a purist at the end of the day when it comes to photography and like which I was gonna. Well, maybe not. So I was gonna ask in the generative, you know, wave. Right. Have you dabbled in, hey, creating kind of a lora for the style of the image I like or have you dabbled in, you know, using anything to use AI? Well, to, you know, to color correct or do. Are you. Is that to you one acceptable and to what are you trying.
- [20:24]
A
Listen, anything that you do that works for you, that allows you to make a living and allows you to create whatever you want to create. Certainly color correction and retouching are something that I haven't as yet been able to do almost comparably, as close as I can do by hand. I mean, it's just, and it's what I love doing. What will absolutely definitely blows me away is I was working on a picture today and it's rather lovely. CEO of a company and she's sitting on a desk and the, the photo is fantastic. And if you look in the background, there's like a mirror and all I can see is like my ugly face, like crouched down, you know, reflected into this mirror. And it's pretty small and I never noticed it when I was shooting. Long story I should have done. Now listen, I can definitely go in there with a clothing brush or whatever, 40 minutes, take that out, make it look perfect. But generative AI pro prompted that say please leave everything in the mirror as is, apart from the stupid looking photographer. Pull him out, leave it. Natural butter. Bang, done. And that, that, that blows me away. So the generative AI is getting so frighteningly good. It's, it's unbelievable.
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B
It's true. I mean, it might even work wonders on this face. We don't know. We're going to find out at dgw. I don't know we'll see.
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A
I'm gonna. I'm gonna use the Kevin Costner filter.
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B
Yeah, I mean, I mean, honestly, I kind of like this Chris Hemsworth one. If I'm not heard of this, I
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A
do the Crimson filters.
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B
Yeah, I'd put that one on. Like, I'm. I'm that good looking. So in five minutes, how many photos are you taking in? Like a session at dzw, you have, I think it was five minutes for shooting, and then you have some extra time. But, like, how many. How many photos do you actually rip off in that five minutes?
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A
So my ideal. Well, here, listen, I'll give you a little background. I went to photograph Martin Scorsese once. Well, I photographed him a couple of times, but I think the first time I went, I got on the call with the people and they tell me, marty's gonna give you five minutes. Five minutes, you'll get by Marty, I'm all right. Five minutes, fine. So, you know, get on another call about, Marty will give you five minutes. We get to the hotel, we're doing it in, like, some press junket. His agent comes in and goes, marty's gonna give you five minutes. Guy comes in to bring us some tea. He goes, you know that Marty, Marty fellow, he's gonna give you five. All right, I get it. It's five minutes.
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B
I can't give five minutes.
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A
So I set up, get going, set up, get camera going, lights going. Scorsese comes in. I said, Mr. Scorsese, can you see? I get down to kind of where I want to shoot. I take like six frames. Everything's right. Photo gods have aligned the lights, lies, expressions, right. Everything looks right. I said, Mr. Scorsese, I think I've got this, and I've only used two minutes. Can we talk about film for three minutes?
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B
You did not.
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A
I did this again.
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B
What'd he say?
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A
He goes, I fine, kid. You take as long as you need. In saying that, it's a funny story, but in genuine. If I talk to you for a couple of minutes and take 10 frames, I'm going to get a better picture than If I shoot 100 frames without making eye contact. So, you know, it all depends. It's sometimes like, it's like, you know, how's this going? Oh, maybe shouldn't have said that, Mark. How are we going to pull it back from there?
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B
Oh, my gosh, this is great, man. This is one of the better episodes we've done. This is fantastic.
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A
And then right after about seven hours of this, there's the inner voice I'm sure you know your inner voice, which should stay in. Right. When I get super tired, sometimes my inner voice speaks out. It's like, oh dear.
- [24:10]
B
So basically at the 5 o' clock hour during DTW is when I need to come witness you in the flash.
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A
No, it's just, I mean it's, it's just, it's just been a couple of times where it's just like, I, I, that shit. Shouldn't have said that. That, that was too far, Mark. That was too far. But no, that works.
- [24:27]
B
It happens. So let me. Because we're kind of getting up in it. Are we closed out? Yeah, we don't. We, we schedule an hour, but I try to keep them around 30 minutes. Like Bite size. But I got a couple rapid fire questions for you. One is if who have you always wanted to take a photo of and you've never had the opportunity, Living or dead? Let's start. Let's do both. Living and dead.
- [24:53]
A
Living, Living, living. Living. Living's tough. Let's go dead first. David Bowie. David Bowie, definitely David Bowie. Living. I saw somebody on TV the other day, I thought, wow, I really. Oh, you know who I'd love to photograph? Simon Beals. I love her. I think she's amazing. And it's funny when you ask that question. It's not like I don't really care if I photograph her. I just like to talk to her for five minutes.
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B
So it's your way of getting to meet everyone at like micro doses for 5 minutes.
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A
I swear to God, that's what it's about. Like, can I take a better photo of Simone Buels than anybody else out there? Don't know. But would I love to just connect with that woman? Because I think she's incredible. Simone Beals, definitely one. God, that's a tough one. Logan Lawler for sure.
- [25:52]
B
Maybe. Well, we're going to put it to the test. GPU on fire, lots of AI. We're going to see how it goes. Tell me one time when you shot someone and you had the photo, you didn't think it was your best work, but that person instantly loved it.
- [26:09]
A
I photographed Jennifer Aniston once and I spent. So, you know when somebody's like in my studio or in this studio, in my studio and they're in hair, makeup or whatever, I try and go over and introduce myself. Hey, I'm Mark. And we got on really nicely and she was lovely and she was laughing at my jokes and I thought, oh my God, this is going to be so easy. Got her in the palm of my hand. And we get out on set and she sits down and I start to continue the conversation and she's just like giving me Jennifer Aniston face, right? The face that she wants to give, the face that she knows works for photographs. The face that she's happy with. But for 10 minutes she would not crack. I mean, I am literally like dancing and saying she's not. So it's not going to happen, Mark that. And that was it. And the photograph, I mean, I don't know if she instantly loved it was a very successful photograph for me. It made me, you know, it did very well. It was sold, you know, after whoever I commissioned for it was sold a lot, was used a lot, seen it everywhere. You know, probably one of a photo you might recognize of her. And when every time I see, I think I failed as a photographer on that photo.
- [27:26]
B
Really? Okay, so which one do you think was your biggest success?
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A
God, I mean, success is like, I
- [27:34]
B
don't mean like financially, but one where you're going in and you're like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do this person. Or like you thought like, I don't know, like they were hard enough to crack or something.
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A
I don't know, I suppose like, you know, go to the White House to photograph Obama and, and just being in the White House and as an immigrant to this country, having the honor to, to photograph a sitting president in the White House, I was incredibly nervous and I had a bit of an out of body experience where I was like there and I was kind of out my body. And I suppose that was what I felt that I had kind of fairly successful in my craft. And I remember coming home after that and getting home from D.C. and opening my door to my apartment and just my wife going, you didn't unload the dishwasher. Straight back down to where I belong. And God bless my wife, because anytime that my ego even slightly amplifies, she brings it back down to her. But I think as I say, being trusted in the hands of, you know, an American president and you know, being, being given that trust really made me feel that I like, I'm not, I'm not faking it anymore. I mean, I'm still, I still feel I'm faking it every day.
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B
But I mean it was like kind of the crescendo moment. I mean, that's pretty cool.
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A
That was good. Robin Williams, another one again to spend time with him.
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B
That's cool.
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A
But you know, listen, yesterday I did A corporate job where I paid for lunch today and possibly tomorrow. And I am a success because of that. And if I don't do that tomorrow, who knows what's going to happen? You know, that's true.
- [29:29]
B
This has been lovely. You're just lovely.
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A
One of the things that I love about being a photographer on set, though, and this is like, I know this is going to sound pathetic, but it's true. It's like if I had a dollar for everyone who says, you don't use Mac. And I go, yeah, Mac won't do that.
- [29:47]
B
That's true. That's true.
- [29:51]
A
I'm not putting down, you know, whatever. It's just like, it's just this incredible thing. How can. How can he wear a. How can he be a photographer with a camera and use a PC? It's just. It's unbelievable, you know, to me, it is just like, you know, I just got all these really smart answers, you know. Well, have you tried it? If you've never tried it, you wouldn't know.
- [30:14]
B
Just winking at you. That's so funny. Trying to pull you away.
- [30:18]
A
It's amazing. It's really amazing.
- [30:22]
B
So at dtw, you will see you live in the flesh, taking photos. I'm excited. So, in the meantime, this episode will release before dtw, but tell everyone where they can find you on social media, your website, if they want to learn more.
- [30:35]
A
Thank you for having me. And as I say, it's. It's such an honor to be part of the Dell Ambassador program. I'm just. I'm loving it. Thank you so much for having me and having me on.
- [30:47]
B
Of course. Well, that kind of wraps up the episode. Mark, appreciate having you on. Check out. Go to www.markmanphoto.com. check out all his great photos. Mark, you're going to say something. Go.
- [30:59]
A
Yeah, send me a dm. Love to connect with anyone. Please send me a dm.
- [31:03]
B
So with that, you know, I hope everyone enjoyed the episode. Love talking to Mark. We love talking about his workflows and what he's able to do. If you haven't, go check out his website. And with that, we'll see you on the next episode. And thanks for listening.
- [31:35]
A
Do what you want. Do what you want.
- [31:37]
B
This podcast was produced in partnership with Amaze Media Labs.