← Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore
Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore
1184: Mark C. Winters, Co-Author of Rocket Fuel and Founder of Rocket Fuel University
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- [00:00]
A
Yeah, so. So, great story. So, you know, again, we're writing the book, and we had the structure outlined pretty quickly. And so we're just working this process where, you know, one of us would write and then you send it to the other one, and they would kind of edit and write. And we kind of have a back and forth on a chapter that go on for a while until we got it to, you know, 80, 90%. Then we'd lock that one down, we'd move on, and we'd do the next one and kind of repeat. We kind of take turns leading and following until we would get there. So we're doing this, and, you know, meanwhile, we needed some kind of a working title for the project, right? So we had some of the worst working titles that you can imagine, like, you know, the Visionary Integrator Dynamic or, you know, the Visionary Integrator Revolution. You know, I mean, just not anything sexy at all. So my clients that I'm working with, they knew I was working on a book. And so one day, one of the clients says, hey, Mark, that. That book. How's. How's that going? Oh, man, it's going good. We're making progress. We're about halfway through whatever. And he goes, what are you calling it? So I rattled off about three of these working titles, and he's just shaking his head in disappointment. He's like, he can't believe how bad they are. And he. No, he's. Let me tell you, he goes, the title for your book is Rocket Fuel. And I'm like, okay, John, explain. Tell me why that's the title of the book. And he goes, well, we had this profiling company come in recently, and, you know, profiling companies will look at how the different members of the team are kind of wired and kind of explain how the differences work together. What's easy, what's hard, how to manage that. So he had the profiles for everybody on the team, and he would take two of the reports and he'd kind of hold them up and say, okay, are these peers? Or is this one the manager? Or is this one the manager? How's this relationship work? And so he picks up two and he says, which way? And say, okay, it's like this. This one's the manager, and this one works for them. And he looks at him and he goes, oh, my gosh. He goes, this is going to be rocket fuel for your company. And it just happened. He had picked up the visionary's profile and the integrator's profile, and it was just one of those things where the two pieces fit together in an extremely powerful way. And I thought about it and I'm like, I really like that. And so I went on a run that afternoon and I remember stopping about halfway through the run after I'd kind of noodled this for a while and I texted Gene and I said, I told him the story. I'm like, here's, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? And he's like, love it. And so then we shared it with the publisher and their publisher's like, that's so much better than what you guys were originally thinking.
- [02:22]
B
Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1,000 episodes, I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guest and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is made possible by US Foods. And did you know US Foods is hosting the Food Fanatics 2025 event at the Mandalay Bay Resort in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's all going down between August 19th and 20th. This is going to be one you do not want to miss. I'm going to be there. I want you to be there. Here's what you got to do. And the clock is ticking, so do not delay. Register now www.usfoods.com food fanatics2025 or just go to usfoods.com and look for the banner. Do you wish you could have all of your restaurant needs and solutions under one roof? Well, you can. It's called Restaurant Systems Pro. And with Restaurant Systems Pro, you get accounting systems, budgeting systems, costing systems, purchasing systems, inventory management systems, labor management systems, training systems, and systems to create and implement checklists. And on top of all this, Restauran Assistance Pro has their own native general ledger. And they're in the process of launching their own pos, which they are so appropriately naming serve because that's exactly what they do. To learn more, head over to restaurant unstoppable.com RSP where you can schedule your own demo. Watch a demo that I did with Restaurant Systems Pro CEO Fred Langley or catch every and all testimonial we've ever recorded on the show. That's restaurantunstoppable.com RSP with excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guest, co author of Rocket Fuel and founder of Rocket Fuel University, a guy I've been excited to get on the show for years now. This has been at least a year and a half in the works. Mark C. Winters, my man. Mark, are you feeling unstoppable today?
- [04:45]
A
So glad to be here and so glad you finally, finally made it to Flower Mound, Texas.
- [04:49]
B
Made it. We're here. And, you know, EOS came on my radar about five or six years ago in my interviews, talking to people, and, well, I think it was actually traction that was first on my radar, the book Traction. And I think I heard it two or three times. And I finally. I picked up the book and I learned all about eos. And then people started saying, like, we're using eos. And then now, like, almost like once a month, EOS comes up in conversation. It's like, it's like exponentially growing awareness. Is that true? Is it just my imagination, or is it, like, growing fast right now?
- [05:21]
A
Yeah. So grow might be an understatement. It's. It's really taken off. And just to kind of give you a little context on that, the first exposure I had to EOS was back in 2012.
- [05:29]
B
Okay.
- [05:30]
A
And I found out about it through. Through a webinar that Mike Peyton did and so made the. The pilgrimage to Detroit, met Gino and fell in love with it. Really what I heard. And at that time, like, when I first started my EOS journey as an implementer, there were probably a couple of dozen people in the room that. That was about it. When we've got all the implementers together.
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B
Yeah.
- [05:51]
A
So you fast forward to today, and that number's a thousand. Yeah.
- [05:55]
B
And when you're using terminology, EOS terminology right now, that I'm sure will make more sense as we get. Going into today's interview, I can't wait to kind of dive into where you are starting us right now. Like, going further into your backstory and how you got into eos, and, you know, how you wrote the book Rocket Fuel. But let's get that motivational inspirational ball rolling with a success quarter mantra. What do you got for us?
- [06:15]
A
So stay above the line.
- [06:17]
B
Ooh, stay above the line. What do you mean by that?
- [06:19]
A
Well, so I have a discipline that I follow that's. I call it one place. And so every day, I have one place that everything goes. It's my. It's actually a digital thing now, but it used to be a legal pad. And so I write down my plan for the day, I write down different things that come up during the day that I need to focus on. But across that page on my tablet is a, is a hard line. And I put above that line those things that are really the high impact things that are driving me forward to achieve the goals I've set for the year and my rocks for the quarter. Throwing some more EOS terms at you. And so my discipline is stay above that line. I've got some things below the line that are things that need to happen, things that need to get done, but I can't let those jump in front of those things that are above the line because that's what keeps me focused on moving down the path that I want to go with intention.
- [07:08]
B
When I hear that, I think of when tomorrow, today or like basically getting ready for the next day, tonight or that morning. Right. Getting, being ahead of it and having your clear goals and having the lines of things that I'm like the most important things I can accomplish that will move me towards those goals. Like. And that's what I'm hearing, like stay above those most important things. Don't fall behind.
- [07:27]
A
That's right. And there's another element of it for me because I spend a lot of my time in sort of a creative space as I'm writing or developing new tools or new products, programs and actually Tim Ferriss, who you're probably familiar with. Right. So, so one of his sayings is make before manage. And so that's an important discipline for me to stick to is if I will do my creative stuff first, then it doesn't get sacrificed later in the day, which is what it's always wanting to do. Right. There's anything and everything that wants to tug me and pull me away from doing the things that I need to do there, spending the time that I need to spend. So if I can get in that zone to get in that flow early and maybe it's just an hour or maybe it's a couple of hours, but then sometimes I can kind of actually really get into it. I can even stretch that longer. If I can do those things first, if I truly can make before manage, those are the kinds of things that typically are above the line.
- [08:16]
B
Yeah. On my page I'm thinking of Brian C. Tracy right now and Darren Hardy, who in many ways they, the, the, their content. Eat that frog and oh, what's the. The Darren's book is Escaping my Mind.
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A
Entrepreneurial roller coaster.
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B
That's one of them. I think it's exceeding my mind. I'll probably come to me as I get talking but they really focus on this individual growth. Right. Having like, what is, like, the most important thing you can focus on this year. And how do you reverse engineer that and focus and just tackle those biggest goals? But when I think of eos, it's like that. But for organizations, it's like scaling that mindset. So I think that's a great way to get started today and before we kind of dive in more into like, your, like your role with eos, like, what were you doing before eos?
- [09:03]
A
Yeah, so I was your. Your classic serial entrepreneur that sort of stumbled into it, really. I was a big corporate guy, so I worked for Procter and Gamble. And I was in a meeting one day and it became apparent to me that my future actually laid entirely in the hands of this guy sitting across the table from me. And there was something just unnatural about that that felt really wrong. And so that sort of teed me up to be listening and kind of thinking. And then I was in business school at the time at the University of Chicago, and I was sitting there in class one day. I'll never forget. It was a pricing strategy and tactics class. And it was one of those classes where you do group projects. So the groups are bringing up their widget or their service concept in front of the class, and I'm sitting there listening to them. Remember, I'm working at Procter and Gamble at the time. I'm selling, you know, diapers and coffee and juicing. Procter and Gamble makes everything past sponsor of the podcast.
- [09:53]
B
They're Daunton dish detergent.
- [09:55]
A
No kidding. Hilarious. Yeah, so I used to have a picture. It was funny. It was kind of a pile of all the P and G products at that time. And it was massive. I mean, people don't, don't realize or appreciate how much stuff they have out there. Anyway, I was in that business, and I'm watching somebody walk before the class with their group and say, hey, we've invented this widget. It solves this problem. And there's this many people out here, out there that need this problem. We can sell it for this much. It's going to cost us that much to make. So we're going to make this much money. Then the group after them, we come up with this service need. You know, it meets this unmet need in the marketplace. There's this many people, we can charge this much, it's going to cost this much to deliver it. And I was just fascinated by what I saw and thinking, wow, that is so much more interesting than what I'm Doing every day, which is selling paper towels through a grocery store, basically. Right. And the future there in that world. And I had it mapped out. By the age of 43, I was going to be the CEO of Procter and Gamble. I knew. I knew exactly the path, how long everybody was going to be in their. In their job.
- [10:50]
B
How old were you when you had this vision?
- [10:51]
A
Oh, gosh, I was in my early 20s. And so I got bit by the entrepreneurial bug, right. So as any good entrepreneur, I decided that I had to do this. And so that meant I walked on that job and I basically quit. And funny thing about that story is my wife didn't find out that I quit until after I had done it.
- [11:16]
B
Oh, boy. How'd that go?
- [11:17]
A
Well, you know, she happened to be pregnant at the time, so. Not great is the short answer. And that's how I got all this gray hair that I've got.
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B
It seemed to work out in the long run.
- [11:26]
A
Silly, silly things like that. Well, the good news is we're still very happily married and have, you know, three great kids, and so it all worked out in the end. But, you know, a lesson I would share with young would be entrepreneurs is, you know, that's not the way to do it. In my mind, I was burning the ships, and I was making sure that nobody could tell me no. And so I was just jumping forward because I figured that would give me the best odds of success. But what you forget when you have other folks along for the ride with you is everybody's not wired for that ride, right. And they're sort of getting drug along behind the bus and, you know, can do a lot of damage and be a lot of pain for them because it is like riding that roller coaster. And, man, maybe they hate roller coasters, but that's just part of the entrepreneurial journey.
- [12:08]
B
Yeah. And one of the things I've learned is that one piece of advice isn't universal. Like, if you were 22 years old, right. And you didn't have a kid on the way or and you weren't married, like, go all in, right? Because what do you have to lose of the more you can double down. But as soon as you hit people to your wagon, like, it's a different story.
- [12:25]
A
Changes the game.
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B
You got to find that balance. You got to figure out. You got to take that into consideration. Like, you don't want to destroy your life in the. In the pursuit of a dream.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Right.
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A
100.
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B
So. So you, You. You get the, the bug early.
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A
Yeah.
- [12:39]
B
You recognize that you Gotta, you know, one of your lessons is you gotta find balance early on. And where were you by the time EOS fell on your lap? When did that come?
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A
Yeah, so I was way down the road at that point. I probably had 13 or 14 different companies.
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B
Okay.
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A
That I had either started myself, bought from somebody else, you know, shut down or sold off or, you know, whatever. All different kinds of experiences and outcomes and industries. Everything from, you know, super high tech things to, you know, manufacturing.
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B
Okay.
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A
And anything and everything in between. And some of them have worked out really, really well. You know, One of them, we had 100x cash on cash return in less than three years.
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B
Okay.
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A
Other ones we lost the whole deal and maybe more. Right. And so, you know, scars all over my body to show from the lessons I've learned there. So I did that over a period of time and eventually moved from kind of the operator seat to more of an advisory seat and I started helping other people with their businesses.
- [13:36]
B
When does that happen for people?
- [13:38]
A
When, when you would make a shift like that?
- [13:39]
B
Yeah, because that is something I picked up on on the most successful restaurant tours. The evolution is you're the operator and you just start building layers between you and the work. And eventually you're just this person who recognizes talent and a good idea and then you just invest.
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A
Yeah. So I think it's. I think that's different for everyone. I think everybody has sort of a different blueprint that they're following or a different, you know, pattern that of what they're trying to accomplish and what they're trying to do. And so for me, one of the things that I figured out was I saw helping other people as leverage. So if I was just doing stuff myself, I can reach a certain circle, Right. Or a certain, you know, make a certain ripple in the, in the ocean, if you will. But if I can help you do it, you're going to make your ripple. So I've had influence there and then same thing over here and same thing over there. Now all of a sudden I've got all these signals that are sending out into the world. And so to me, that felt like more impact, 100%. So that's part of it. Part of it is also a risk thing. Right. So early on I got, you know, well, I have everything to lose, I guess, but, you know, that's the only way I was going to kind of get to where I wanted to go. So I'm taking chances.
- [14:44]
B
You have time and energy too.
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A
Like crazy, right? A lot of time and energy. I don't have, you know, kids where I'm spending time coaching sports and doing all the other things that sort of come later. And so it's easier to kind of pour all your focus and attention into the build. Yeah. And then later on, it's kind of like, you know what? I'd kind of like to travel. I'd kind of like to be sure I'm spending time with the family in the way I want to spend that time. I'm looking for leverage. I'm looking for different creative outlets for myself. So that's what led me through the advisory door.
- [15:13]
B
Yeah.
- [15:14]
A
If that makes sense.
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B
One image I like to. Or like analogy I like to use is when you're climbing the ladder.
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A
Right.
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B
When you're growing yourself, when you're going up that. That. That chain of growth, when you get to the top, you can continue to do what you're doing, or you can help other people get to where you are. And it's. And if you can help pull people up that ladder, they can get to the top faster. Right. And it's easier to pull people up than it is to push people up.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Right. So I think just the idea of getting to the top of wherever you're going and reaching down and giving somebody a hand to get to the top with you, when you do that.
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A
Yeah.
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B
To your point, it ripples.
- [15:47]
A
Yeah. And it's interesting. So, you know, one of the first things that I did was I started forming peer groups. And, you know, I grew up sort of in El. Are you familiar with entrepreneurs? Yeah. So I was a longtime member of the chapter here in Dallas, several terms on the board, and that's where I learned about forum. And, you know, I was the forum chair and a moderator for our forum and all that stuff. So I really appreciated the power of the peer group. So one of the first advisory type of things I got into was I started CEO peer groups for an organization called Vistage. If you're familiar with Vistage, I've heard of it. Yeah. So a big CEO peer group that's out west. They're international, so they're. They're. They're huge. And. But I started four of these groups here in Dallas, Fort Worth. And one of the cool things is, you know, you've got 12 to 16 CEOs in the group. Right. And all different businesses. So you've got all this diversity of thought and experience in the room. And so you learn a lot. And so that's different when you kind of get into the narrow niche of your own business and just that. And you're so buried in that, so focused on that, you. You lose a little bit of that perspective of kind of looking up and out. So that was really interesting for me. And one of the things that happened there, which is kind of leading to the lifting people up, is I had used an operating system in my business. Okay, not all of them. In the beginning, I didn't have an operating system, and that was a real wild ride, as you can imagine. But later on, I figured out, hey, there's a better way to do this. So I had implemented a system, and that helped me. That helped me stay focused. That was better for the folks that were in the business with me. And it was more effective. It got us more of what we wanted. It was not eos, right, Because EOS wasn't around way back then. But as I got into this, this, you know, facilitating these peer groups, people in the group knew that, and they would be like, mark, hey, will you help us implement a system like you did? And my first reaction to that was, well, no, because that's really hard. It was really hard for me to do that. So I don't want to. You know, I'm trying to make my life simpler here. I'm not trying to make it harder. So, you know, you just. And they kind of keep working on me. Come on, just help us get started. Just help us get started. So I finally did. I said, okay, I'll help you get started. And what I found was I loved it. It was really interesting for me. I got to teach, right? And I got to, you know, really facilitate the answers out of them. You know, not the answer guy. I just. They have the answers, but helping them find it and get it out and then coaching them to kind of push them along and. And show them, hey, here's what the other side looks like when they hit that point, when it really gets done. Difficult and challenging and they want to quit. Yeah. But here's why we're doing it. Here's what it looks like I've seen. I got to the other side. You can get to the other side. Here's these other people that have done it. It's worth it, right? And kind of pushing them through that turned out to be a really charge for me. Right.
- [18:27]
B
And this. This being systems, processes, procedures, protocols, habits, like rituals, things like this, like daily, weekly, quarterly, annual, if this, then that behind every great restaurant is a great person. The key to being great is to be of service to others. And this holds true for all organizations, restaurants. After spending a month in Phoenix, Arizona, being hosted by Restaurant Systems Pro CEO Fred Langley. I got to experience firsthand Fred's desire to serve. It all started when I got there. Fred gave me the keys to his house and to his office building. When Fred leaves work every day, I witnessed him go coach one of his two son's baseball teams. And when Fred's neighbor lost power when they were hosting their son's birthday party, Fred offered to host the party at his house. Eric, why are you sharing this? Because how you do one thing is how you do everything. And believe me when I say that the desire to serve extends to Fred's restaurant clients. There are no secrets or shortcuts to life or restaurant success. There's only discipline, hard work, and the desire to do the right thing. Fred and his team at Restaurant Systems Pro are here to serve you with the systems and resources to be more disciplined so you can do the hard thing, which nine times out of 10, is the right thing. With Restaurant Systems Pro, you get accounting systems, budgeting systems, costing systems, purchasing systems, inventory management systems, labor management systems, training systems, and the systems to create and implement checklists. On top of all this, Restaurant Systems Pro also has their own native general ledger, and they're in the process of launching their own pos, which they are so appropriately naming Serve. And you know what? If you don't want to change your pos, that's absolutely fine, because Restaurant Systems Pro integrates with all major POS providers. To learn more, head over to restaurantunstoppable.com RSP and you will find a link to schedule a demo with their sales team. A demo I personally did with Restaurant Systems Pro CEO Fred Langley and all 18 of our testimonials that we've recorded since the beginning of Restaurant unstoppable. Again, that's restaurantunstoppable.com RSP.
- [20:40]
A
That's right. And clarity of vision. Right. So it's all kind of just wasted energy. If you're running around in circles and not really going anywhere, you need that direction.
- [20:49]
B
What were your biggest inspirations up to this point before going all in on EOs in terms of, like, how to implement and create a system?
- [20:57]
A
Yeah. So. Well, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by inspirations.
- [21:00]
B
Like, were there. Like, where did you go to do it for yourself? And what. What were your resources teaching other people up to this point?
- [21:05]
A
Yeah. So I. I mean, Verne Harnish had been a big inspiration for me. He's somebody that I had followed and liked the framework that he put together, and that's what I had used in, in several of my businesses, you know.
- [21:16]
B
Okay.
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A
And so a lot of those principles were kind of where I started.
- [21:19]
B
Okay.
- [21:20]
A
And so early in that process, actually very early, Vistage used to have this thing called a Fridays with Vistage webinar. And so every Friday they'd have some expert do some kind of webinar on some piece of content. And it's just a great learning opportunity. And one of those was Mike Peyton, who obviously an early EOS implementer, very influential person in our community, has written several of the important books around the EOS ecosystem. And so Mike gave this webinar and I watched and I just kind of saw the breakdown of the system. I was kind of like, that's really great. That's really simple, that's really elegant. I like that better than the way I'm doing it.
- [22:00]
B
That was my follow up question. What was missing from the way you were doing it to what EOS was?
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A
Yeah. So to me it's, it's, it's like imagine you're on the side of a canyon and you can see the other side of where you want to go. There was a more direct path with EOS of the steps to follow and the process to use to get from this side to that side. Yeah, that was the thing that was new. That was the thing that was really enticing.
- [22:27]
B
And at this point when Mike gave this presentation, was this the first time.
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A
You had ever heard of, Never heard of it before.
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B
So just a little context. There's a book, Traction. Gina Wickman wrote the book Traction. In that book he introduces the idea of eos, the entrepreneurial operating system. And then it seems like EOS kind of, kind of takes a life of its own at this point. Is that safe to say?
- [22:47]
A
It is, yeah.
- [22:48]
B
So. And Mike Payton is the co author of Get a Grip, past guest, the show. You are, you're the last before I think it, to Renee Bauer. And once I get Renee on the show, then I have a full.
- [22:59]
A
You got the Traction library, the set, the collect.
- [23:01]
B
So that's the goal. Hopefully in the fall I'll be connecting with Renee. So anyway, so Mike is out there. This is around 2012.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah.
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B
Where he's kind of spreading the word, the gospel of Eos and what you describe, a direct path is exactly. Nothing that I read in Traction or looking at us was new in terms of the information. It's all been said before. We know vision is important, we know values are important. We know having a goal is important.
- [23:30]
A
Timeless principles.
- [23:31]
B
But it's taking all these bits and pieces that we all have heard of in countless books and then laying it out in a step by step. That's what I think Gino did. That was different at that time, or the way he communicated. It was powerful.
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A
Yeah, he obsesses about simplicity. Yeah, he really does. And so he takes all this stuff and kind of looks at it and distills it down to its most simple form, really, which is easy for people to get their head around, but more importantly, or certainly as importantly, easy to execute, easy to follow through and do. So that's his genius. And so he put it in place, and then he tested the heck out of it. Right. So he saw what worked, he saw what didn't work, and he just kind of kept doubling down, doubling down, doubling down until he, I mean, literally by himself, pretty much proved that it worked. And then Don Tinney came on board, and then Mike Peyton and Renee Bohr and, you know, several of the other early folks that just began to replicate the kind of results that Gino had seen with his clients. And that sort of opened the door.
- [24:31]
B
So which part of Eos, the way that Geno Wickman laid out, were you missing up to this point in terms of. You said you had your own process of laying out, like, helping other people develop process, but where were you falling short?
- [24:46]
A
So I had no intention of developing my own process. Again, this was a sideline to my core thing at that point, which was facilitating these peer groups. I wasn't even thinking about, oh, you know what, I should make a system. It really wasn't. It was just kind of bits and pieces, odds and ends that I had picked up through my experience, and I was sharing with these members of my peer group that it was probably literally just a couple of months in before I saw the thing with Mike. I go to Detroit, Gino and I meet, we become fast friends. I go, this is a better way. I come back, anybody I was talking to about that, now I'm talking to them about EOs. And then what happened was it was like a runaway train, because I'm spending all this time facilitating these peer groups, little bit of time, you know, helping people implement a system. And then all of a sudden, the demand just kind of blew up over here to where I can't do both. It's too much. And this was the one I really loved. I was really getting the charge out of implementing EOs.
- [25:44]
B
That one being us. Yeah. So at this point, did they even have integrators? Was that even like it was there so sorry, implementers.
- [25:52]
A
Well, implementers, yes. So, so. And there were a couple of different evolutions of the business model. The structure on how that was being served up from, from Gino and Don. And so when I came in, you know, when I went to Detroit, there were probably, I think I counted up the other day, were 26 people in the room. So you know, me, Gino, Don, Mike, Walt Brown, Renee Bohr. I mean, just kind of a really, really small couple dozen people. And at the time there was nobody in the state of Texas. 0. The closest implementer to me on the map was in Des Moines, Iowa.
- [26:28]
B
Wow.
- [26:29]
A
And you know, fast forward to today. There's now, I think there's over 50 implementers in Dallas. Wow. And over 100 in the state of Texas.
- [26:36]
B
What is an implementer versus an integrator?
- [26:38]
A
Yeah. Great. So unfortunately the words are, I'm just.
- [26:41]
B
Starting to get my. I always mess them up.
- [26:43]
A
They're too similar. But the implementer is the one that helps the business implement eos.
- [26:49]
B
Got it.
- [26:50]
A
Okay. So they're the facilitator, the teacher, the coach that moves them along the journey to master the tools within EOS and really get a good strong implementation in their organization.
- [27:00]
B
If you want to implement eos, you go to an implementer.
- [27:03]
A
Yes.
- [27:04]
B
Yeah. And this is what you were in Detroit becoming at this time?
- [27:08]
A
That's correct, yeah. So I went to Detroit to learn more and ultimately I became an implementer of eos. A professional implementer. So not just somebody that grabbed the book and said, oh yeah, I'm an expert in this. Right, got it. So that's it. So to close the loop there, the difference is the integrator. Integrator is an execution oriented role inside the organization that works glove in hand with the visionary to go execute the vision and make it happen. Got it. So think of it as integrator is an internal role that's much more broad than just the operating system. And an implementer is an external role that comes in and helps implement EOS as effectively as possible.
- [27:48]
B
What was your vision for yourself at this point in 2012? Like what were you trying to create for yourself?
- [27:54]
A
Yeah, so I was again, I'm thinking I'm in an advisory role. I'm helping businesses, you know, get more of whatever it is that they want from their business. Which I had lived. I'd been that entrepreneur that saw what I wanted, jumped in and then went through the reality, which sucked of, you know, I'm working my tail off, I'm not making any money. This isn't making a difference, I can't get unstuck, all that kind of stuff, and sometimes making it out the other side and sometimes not. Right. So I wanted to help more of them do that because I have a deep respect and appreciation for that entrepreneur having. Having, you know, felt those things and watching the real impact that entrepreneurs have on our world. I mean, I truly believe that the entrepreneur is the answer to most of the most pressing challenges we have as a society right now.
- [28:42]
B
Right. For sure. I mean, actually pull back a layer on that. Why do you think that that's the case?
- [28:46]
A
Because they. They. They make the moves, they take the risks, and they influence and impact so many people both inside their organization and outside.
- [28:53]
B
Yes, dude, you just hit a chord with me. My mission statement is to change the world through inspiring, empowering, and transforming the restaurant industry. And I believe the restaurant industry, more than any other industry, has the power to change the world precisely for the.
- [29:05]
A
Reasons it touched so many people.
- [29:06]
B
They touched so many people. They're at the core of every community. They are usually the first impressions for so many people when they're entering into the workforce. If you enter into the workforce at an organization that has high standards and exists to serve and, like, you raise the bar and the expectation of the future worker, and you literally mold the future, you know, and it just ripples.
- [29:27]
A
Out 100% and you're planting seeds. Right. So these people that grow up in your restaurant, let's say, and then they get inspired, they see what's great or. Or they see what's terrible, and then they go do one. Right. And it just multiplies. So it's just. You're. You're growing seeds, You're. You're having an impact that just multiplies and multiplies.
- [29:44]
B
So Rocket Fuel was written in 2015.
- [29:46]
A
Released in 2015, released in 2015, written since.
- [29:50]
B
Between 2012 and 20.
- [29:51]
A
Took a minute. Yeah.
- [29:53]
B
So what. What was it about you and Geno, this pairing that made you, like, how did this. This. This partnership on Rocket Fuel come into fruition?
- [30:00]
A
Yeah. So, I mean, it's funny, when I became an implementer, it was sort of a perfect storm for me because I had been an entrepreneur in this market for a long, long time. I had experience using a system, not eos, but I understood what. What impact a system could have for your business and getting what you wanted. I had a nice network of folks in the entrepreneurial community here because I had been in that community through EO and other things and Vistage for that matter. And so it Was sort of a perfect storm when I came back, and I'm like, all right, this EOS thing, I like it a lot. It just really took off fast. And so, you know, that got Gino's attention a little bit. And so pretty quickly, really, within the first six months, Gino sort of throws out the idea to the room of, hey, thinking about writing a book on this visionary integrator thing that he had. He had created in developing the accountability chart and using his clients. And I said, hey, I'd be interested in that. And so know, pretty quickly we decided to do that project together. And then that led to me living in his brain for about a year.
- [31:03]
B
What was that like?
- [31:04]
A
It was crazy. There's insanity in there.
- [31:07]
B
Yeah, I've met him once in my life. I had him on the show as well. I don't know if I told you that, but you can tell he's on a different vibration. He's.
- [31:13]
A
He's such a great guy. I mean, he's just such a wonderful human. He really is. And a genius in his own right. And he's one of those really rare folks that. That we talk about who's wired in such a way that he's very visionary, but he's also very integrator, and he can do that stuff. He's a better. He's a better integrator than I am.
- [31:30]
B
Very rare.
- [31:30]
A
He is super rare. Yeah. And he's a better, more capable as an integrator than I am. And so, anyway, we get to live in each other's brains for a year as we kind of develop that concept. And really, the structure, the thing about Rocket Fuel was it's helping people understand, you know, what a visionary integrator is, which we can. We can talk about. But more importantly, putting a structure around that to take the natural friction of two people that are very differently wired naturally, and finding a way to blend that into something positive and powerful that drives that business to the higher level.
- [32:03]
B
And I'm going on a whim here and saying the majority of the people listening to this podcast probably would fall into the category of entrepreneur. They are CEO, entrepreneur, dreamers, like, constantly just, like, feeding the, like, the funnel with new perspective and knowledge, which is probably why they get distracted so often, because they're constantly being the shiny ball syndrome, you know, so I'm assuming that as I think 80 of my listeners are restaurant owners. So. But I'm sure there are some integrators, or maybe there's some Geno Wickman type out there that are a Little bit of both. Right. So what is it, like, how did you guys land on the title? Rocket Fuel. Like, what is rocket fuel specifically?
- [32:41]
A
So. So, great story. So, you know, again, we're writing the book, and we had the structure outlined pretty quickly. And so we're just working this process where, you know, one of us would write and then you send it to the other one, and they would kind of edit and write. And we kind of have a back and forth on a chapter that go on for a while until we got it to, you know, 80, 90%. Then we'd lock that one down, we'd move on, and we'd do the next one and kind of repeat. We kind of take turns leading and following until we would get there. So we're doing this, and, you know, meanwhile, we needed some kind of a working title for the project, right? So we had some of the worst working titles that you can imagine, like, you know, the Visionary Integrator Dynamic or, you know, the Visionary Integrator Revolution. You know, I mean, just not anything sexy at all. So my clients that I'm working with, they knew I was working on a book. And so one day, one of the clients says, hey, Mark, that. That book. How's. How's that going? Oh, man, it's going good. We're making progress. We're about halfway through, whatever. And he goes, what are you calling it? So I rattled off about three of these working titles, and he's just shaking his head in disappointment. He's like, he can't believe how bad they are. And he goes, no, he's. Let me tell you, he goes, the title for your book is Rocket Fuel. And I'm like, okay, John, explain. Tell me why that's the title of the book. And he goes, well, we had this profiling company come in recently, and, you know, profiling companies will look at how the different members of the team are kind of wired and kind of explain how the differences work together, what's easy, what's hard, how to manage that. So he had the profiles for everybody on the team, and he would take two of the reports and he'd kind of hold them up and say, okay, are these peers, or is this one the manager? Or is this one the manager? How's this relationship work? And so he picks up two and he says, which way? And say, okay, it's like this. This one's the manager, and this one works for them. And he looks at him and he goes, oh, my gosh. He goes, this is going to be rocket fuel for your company. And it just happened. He had picked up the visionary's profile and the integrators profile. And it was just one of those things where the two pieces fit together in an extremely powerful way. And I thought about it and I'm like, I really like that. And so I went on a run that afternoon and I remember stopping about halfway through the run after I'd kind of noodled this for a while and I texted Gene and I told him the story. I'm like, here's, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? And he's like, love it. And so then we shared it with the publisher and the publisher's like, that's so much better than what you guys were. Yeah, originally.
- [34:57]
B
It really is a great title. And I don't know if this, this might be a stretch, but I have a aviation background. Right. And I know that with fuel in anything, like whether it be a car or an airplane, it's about finding the sweet spot ratio of fuel to air. Right. And you need to have that sweet spot ratio to have them optimum, like combustion. Yep. And that's really what the integrator visionary it is. It's about having this balance. And when you find that balance, it's like the sky's the limit.
- [35:23]
A
The fuel and the oxidizer and the proper mix and the proper structure that gives it, lets it compress and focus that energy to drive forward the vehicle, which is the business.
- [35:33]
B
So would you say that. Well, I guess the question is why? Where do most entrepreneurs and visionaries struggle with finding their rocket fuel or their, their opposite to become rocket fuel?
- [35:43]
A
Yeah. So let's, let's get into that sort of through the side door. So first when you think about the struggles that visionaries have, what's getting in their way of getting whatever it is that they want. You know, one that I see a lot is just they're not clear. They don't have a clear vision for where they're trying to go. Two, which you alluded to a little bit earlier is they don't stay focused. They get clear. But they look over here, they look over there. You know, one of my good friends says that the biggest threat to the visionaries great idea is their next great idea. Right, Right. Because you totally really. Right. You feel it. And then the third thing that I see most often is they don't have that execution oriented counterpart and they're missing it. So they're not like Gino and they just aren't good at that. They're not Good at follow through. They're not good at details. They're not good at staying focused. They're not good at holding check. They're not good at holding people accountable. Right, that's another one.
- [36:33]
B
Yeah, I, I going. When listening to the book, I listened to it, like, recently just to have it be fresh in my mind. And you, you kind of start in the book, you're talking about, like, do these things sound familiar? Can you relate with any of these qualities? Then you might be an entrepreneur. I'm over there like one of those sports, like bobbleheads, like, shaking my head. I'm like, yeah, that's me, 100. So it's just like it hit, it hit. The first time I, I listened to it, it hit close at home, and I'm like, it's really hitting close to home right. Right now too. But so back on your train of thought.
- [37:02]
A
Yeah, so. So the question is, if I'm missing that and I don't want to just kind of spin in place and never really go anywhere, then how do I go get it? And the reality is there's kind of three paths there. One is they're already there, and we just call it out and label it, because, believe it or not, there are a fortunate few that have that person on their team kind of doing that for them right now. You know, it's, it's. They just don't realize that that's what it's called, but that's how they're using it and it's working. Right. So we call it out and we make it visible. Second thing is, maybe they're there, but they're not doing that for you, but, boy, they could. They're certainly capable. And if we just kind of move them around in the structure here, we can step them into that seat.
- [37:44]
B
They're on the bus.
- [37:44]
A
They're on the bus. Right. They're just not in that seat yet. So we discover that, make that visible, and find a way to transition them into that seat, which sometimes is a fast thing, sometimes it's a slow thing things. So it just depends. And then the third path is they're not here. And I'm doing it and I'm stinking it up. Right. So I got to go outside. I've got to find a way to go out into the world and find this person.
- [38:07]
B
Yeah, that's the hard one. I think that's the one that you don't want to be like. Because the amount of work that you must go into, just filtering and finding an interview. Yeah, this is a big part of your organization, usually partner level?
- [38:18]
A
Yeah.
- [38:19]
B
Like, safe to say.
- [38:20]
A
Oh, well, yeah. I mean, so psychologically for sure, it's, you know, you'll hear people. People call it their business spouse. Right.
- [38:25]
B
So maybe the most expensive employee you have.
- [38:28]
A
Well, expensive in terms of what you pay them and also in terms of what you invest in the relationship time. Right. So. And energy and. And psychic energy. Right. So I mean, when it doesn't work, it hurts.
- [38:40]
B
Yeah. So again, this is restaurant unstoppable. Right. So how this manifests when I. When listening to you talk, where you see this often it. There's always seems to be a chef, general manager combination where the chef is the dreamer, the creative, the, you know, the, the energy, the. The. The attractive character. And the GM generally is the one that keeps the wheels on the restaurant. Like, what's. Like, you know, they're paying attention to the numbers. They're looking at the P. Ls, they're ordering the food and they're hiring. They're doing HR, all this type of stuff. And you almost. In my nearly 1200 episodes, like, there's always seem to be like this perfect combination of creativity and like order and operations. As you scale that becomes CEO and coo. That's. That's kind of how you see it manifest in that world. And over the past week, I feel like having you on the show is perfect timing because I did five interviews in the past week. I had the CEO of McNelly's Group in Tulsa. I don't know if you're familiar. Bar a bunch of brands, like, I can't keep track. I do five or six interviews a week, and then each one of my guests has five or 10 restaurants, so it's hard to keep.
- [39:49]
A
Right.
- [39:49]
B
But I had the CEO and the COO on back to back, and then I had the CEO of the Social Order in Oklahoma City, Jones Assembly. Have you heard of Jones Assembly?
- [39:58]
A
That's familiar.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah. And then the. The director of operations for the Jones Assembly. And then I had a husband and wife, front of house, chef combination. And then after that, I had the CEO of 84, Hospitality, Rachel Cope, who doesn't have a opposite. She's a visionary CEO, but she doesn't have the CEO person. But what she did is she outsourced to consulting to help with systems, processes, procedures, and she's hiring fractional executives. So there's all these different examples of, like, there is no one path, you know, like, you can, like, what's going through mine as I'm sharing these different Examples are those examples of the combination?
- [40:36]
A
Yeah. So I mean, you're, you're, you're on the pattern, right? And then the path for how they get there is, is very varied.
- [40:42]
B
Right.
- [40:43]
A
There's, there's a thousand different ways that that can, can kind of come about. But the, you know, you sort of started with finding that you don't have them already inside your shop is, is tough. But it's the, that's the most common situation. And typically what happens is somebody reads the book Rocket Fuel, the visionary reads it first. They read chapter one and they love it because that chapter is about them and it sounds very familiar. And they're like, oh wow, these people are in my brain and blah, blah, blah. They read chapter two and that describes the integrator and they kind of get, oh, wow, yeah, that could really help me with the stuff that I'm missing. And then they go, I want one. They may even stop reading at that point because they've got what they needed to get right. And they start trying to figure out how do I fill that gap. And that is where it gets hard. And there's, there's sort of a, a structure that we've developed that helps you think about it. There's a seven step process in the book, but I want to kind of paint the, the simpler picture of what you're doing there. And we think of it as a three piece puzzle. So if you can imagine, you know, we talk about the visionary and the integrator is a two piece puzzle. Right. So you're, you're trying to get these pieces that fit together, that are complementary, they don't overlap too much. And when we put them together, you don't have too many things that between them they're missing. So if we're a really strong pair, we're both really strong in the things that the other is just not strong. Right, right. So then we look at how those two pieces fit together with the third piece. The third piece is the business. Okay. And so on that connection, there's a spectrum of how much visionary does our business need and how much integrator does our business need. Okay. So on the visionary side, you can think of complex businesses that have in your world that have lots of locations that have a very complex menu and all different kinds of weird logistical challenges, stuff like that. Right. That's going to need a lot more visionary with it than something that's just a simple. We do one thing and we do it great.
- [42:37]
B
Yeah. Although we, I think the restaurant industry is at this weird Point right now where there's almost a shift happening where it's no longer enough just to do good food and to have a good restaurant. The. The restaurant's presence is extending beyond the four walls, where now marketing is becoming a bigger and bigger part of the success of, you know, having a social media strategy and marketing strategy. And now you're not just serving food, but every week you need to have a new event to stay because we're really in the experience of, or the, the business of creating experiences and the, the never ending like rollout of like new experiences and the coordination. And I would, as somebody who identifies as like a visionary, would be so overwhelmed with having to constantly reinvent and put system and process all those things.
- [43:26]
A
So, so here's what I'm thinking of. The probably the most amazing restaurant I've ever been in. You ever see the documentary Hero of Sushi?
- [43:34]
B
Oh, I've heard of it, but I haven't seen it.
- [43:35]
A
Okay, so it's about a sushi restaurant in Tokyo. Yeah. That's in a subway station, basically underground, and 10 chairs, 10 seats, sushi omakase. So he's set menu, right.
- [43:49]
B
Y.
- [43:49]
A
So that's it. That's all they do. One seating. That's it. So they're, they're not, they're not worried about marketing at all. They're not worried about anything but the craft. Right. So there was a certain kind of visionary there for just the focus being on excellence and just the best that you could possibly be at doing that thing. Right. Versus all the different variables. If we're trying to create this, you know, experience that's way beyond just the, the food. We're trying to create demand, we're trying to grow. So we're trying to pop units and enter new markets and trying to, you know, spin this concept into two or three different concepts. That's what I'm talking about in terms of complexity that requires a different kind of integrator than the integrator that's just making sure that we go to the fish market and we pick out the best stuff and then we prepare it and we have the process and all that kind of stuff. It's just, it's a different thing. So there's a spectrum there. So my point is on the visionary side, whatever it is, it is because usually it's the visionary that's kind of driving this. They're the founder. Right. So really the question is, how much integrator do we need in this business? And is it the kind of thing that has all this scale, we got thousands and thousands of employees and, and regulatory stuff that we're dealing with and all that stuff versus something that's just very, very simple, different integrators that we may need. So if you imagine this three piece puzzle and the integrator piece is missing, we first understand the edge of that visionary and then we understand the edge of the business and by default we back into the shape of this integrator. We need to go out in the world and find.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah. Now listening to you talk, it makes me feel like there could be a scenario where there's the entrepreneur, the business, and then maybe it's multiple integrators. And in the world of restaurants where you have the cheap, off the cheap offer, the chief operations officer, the cheap, the chief human officer, the, the chief culinary, like, there's so many different, like elements of where you really need a specialty person for each one of these different arms the industry has.
- [45:46]
A
So, so play that at a higher level. So the accountability chart, one of the tools in the EOS toolbox, right. That really maps this out. And, and it's the simple chart that shows what needs to get done, that's clustered together in human sizes where somebody can manage it, that then has direct line accountability to someone else in the organization for that stuff. Right. So that's basically what an accountability chart does for us. So at the highest level you've got the visionary and then we've got the integrator reporting into them and effectively everybody else, every other function in the organization is reporting into that integrator who is pulling it all together. Because if they're not pulling it all together, who would be the CEO who.
- [46:28]
B
Should not be doing it?
- [46:29]
A
Exactly. Right, right. So that's the whole point is we're trying to protect them from that and be a, you know, a filter of sorts for the messaging and ideas flowing down from the visionary into the organization. So we bring forward the things that are high leverage, but we sort of stay away from the crazy stuff that could really hurt us or do damage. So to your point though, I might have a restaurant organization that has three different brands, three, you know, that have stores and all kinds of stuff. So the question as you structure that accountability chart is, okay, what kind of things are we sort of going to push into shared services, back office stuff is a typical candidate for that accounting. Hr, it, blah, blah, blah, you know, a point of sale, whatever, all that kind of stuff falls over there sometimes. The marketing is where we can kind of have a center of excellence there. That's Just taken the same expertise that they know and pointing at this brand or that brand or this market or that market. But then operationally is where it tends to kind of split apart. It sort of has to, to manage the different brands or to manage the different markets. And then the game is kind of okay, how many different ones can we handle before we have to consolidate again? So if I've got, you know, a sales and marketing function, I've got a finance and administrative function and maybe I've got two or three brands in the middle, an integrator could potentially pull all of those things together. But if I've got seven or eight brands, it's too wide, it's too much stuff for that one person to pull together. So I probably need to have somebody that's an head of ops.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah.
- [47:51]
A
That's sort of pulling all that operational stuff back together again. And so it tends to expand and consolidate. Expand and consolidate. As long as we're keeping the span of control manageable for really everybody in the structure.
- [48:02]
B
Yeah. So if, if we're going through this journey, we found our integrator or we found, if we're the integrator, we found our visionary or, or CEO. What is the secret to making this relationship work? What can we do to be proactive and make sure we go the distance?
- [48:16]
A
Yeah. So this is where the five rules come into play. And that's really the structure that takes, is think about how we're wired. So if I'm a visionary, that's tons of ideas. I'm thinking about the future, I'm externally focused, I'm moving and shaking and doing all kinds of stuff out here versus if I'm the one who's really driving things internally, I'm, you know, obsessed with the details and the follow through and making sure that we keep our commitments and all that kind of stuff. Right. And holding people accountable. That's a really big one. They're, they're naturally going to want to fight, they're naturally going to butt heads. And so think of that as friction. Recognize that friction is normal and healthy.
- [48:55]
B
You need friction to have traction. Right.
- [48:56]
A
You do. And in fact you think about it as a polar charge in the relationship where if we can get those people pulls as far apart, we can actually get a greater charge. Right. To a certain point. A certain point we might break it, but we try to maximize that charge. So the structure of the five rules is all about how do we blend that into positive power that can drive us forward to the next level. So you know, first of the five rules is to stay on the same page. Stay on the same page. And that's first for a reason. Because sometimes that's the hardest thing to do. And often it's the thing that they think they're doing a good job of because they talk all the time, but in reality they're talking in passing. And it's kind of quick hit, surface level, transactional stuff. And it's not the deeper stuff. That's the stuff that's really bugging them. That's the stuff that they're really not aligned on, the stuff they really haven't worked through yet, that if you don't create the space to talk about that you don't.
- [49:59]
B
Yeah. And this manifests in the monthly, same page meeting.
- [50:02]
A
That's right. Yeah, that's right. So, well, at least monthly. So the prescription is at least once a month, you sit down with your counterpart, and it's a super simple agenda that says, all right, what's on your mind and what are the issues? Use another EOS term. And the issues that we should be talking about there are anything that's kind of driving you nuts, anything that you feel like we're not on the same page on, anything that you're concerned we might be getting off the same page on. And anything that's kind of coming down the pipe that, that you're wanting to make darn sure ahead of time, proactively, that we, that we get a line and stay on the same page. And so you lay out that issues list. And sometimes, you know, particularly the integrator will have that list beforehand. Visionary may not. That's okay. We start off, you know, what do you want to have on the list? And so whatever process you use to kind of put that stuff together. And then a lot of times it's just kind of taking turns. Hey, what's the next one you've got? You do one, I'll do one. You do one, I'll do 1. But the idea is in that same page meeting, we sort of lock the doors, we stay in that session, that meeting until we have gotten aligned on all the things on that list.
- [51:06]
B
Got it. So step one or the first rule, stay on the same page. And then to do that, schedule monthly time, same page meeting. That was called. Yeah, same page meeting.
- [51:18]
A
Yep.
- [51:18]
B
So what's number this? The second rule.
- [51:20]
A
So see if I can remember these off the top of my head. So number two is probably no end runs.
- [51:28]
B
No end runs. I was listening to this at times too, and I thought it said no interruptions. But I was like, did I write that right?
- [51:33]
A
Because no interruptions, no end runs and hindrance. Yeah, interruption. It's not really an interruption, although it creates one. But think about the accountability chart, okay? So you've got the different seats on the accountability chart. And an end run is when someone goes around their manager to the person above them. So imagine a new integrator gets put in place in the organization, in the accountability chart. They weren't there before. Before that seat was there. All these other leaders reported directly to the visionary, right? And so now there's a. There's a seat in between us. And a lot of times people, not with bad intention, but just because of old habits, because they've always. They'll go right past the integrator's office and they'll go into the visionary's office and go, hey, you know, what am I supposed to do about this? And they basically unload on them and ask them to make a decision or give direction to them. Now, if the visionary does that, what does that do in terms of setting up the integrator for success?
- [52:33]
B
Yeah. Maybe they might have a different opinion.
- [52:35]
A
Yeah, right. So, I mean, effectively, you're cutting that integrator off at the knees if, as a visionary, you just drive the ship, right? So that doesn't work. The other thing that happens is the. The visionary, again, old habits. They'll go right past the integrator's office and they'll go out somewhere in the organization. They'll go, oh, do this, do that, and they start giving direction and making decisions out there in the field or wherever. And same thing, the integrator had all these plans, had everything set up and everything was working in a certain way. And then the visionary just goes out there and kind of yanks it all around and messes it up. Okay? So neither one of those is great and really is not what you want to do if you want your integrator to be able to be effective. So to fight that, to counteract that, we teach the visionary something that we call the question. Okay? And the question is simply this. When someone comes into their office and tries to get them to make that decision or give that direction, they can listen so they can take in the information, right? Hear what they've got to say. And then when they get done, you say, okay, are you going to tell the integrator or am I going to tell the integrator? Because somebody's got to tell the integrator, right? And what we see in practice is if they will do that, if they will truly embrace that discipline. Within about 30 days, you'll drive this behavior out of the organization because you.
- [53:47]
B
Know he's going to end up going to the integrator eventually, so might as well just go straight there.
- [53:51]
A
Exactly right. Exactly.
- [53:52]
B
So really, it's like just respecting the chain of communication command both ways. This episode is made possible by US Foods. And did you know US Foods is hosting the Food Fanatics 2025 event at the Man Delay Bay Resort in sunny Las Vegas, Nevada. It's all going down between August 19th and the 20th. The theme this year is every second counts. And that could not be more true. If you want to be unstoppable, you really got to be intentional with your time. And there's no better way to be intentional with your time than going to this year's event, because I'm going to be there and there's going to be so much going on. Here's what you can expect. Networking opportunities with 5000 industry peers. Live demos, giveaways, games and more. Celebrity chefs and keynote speakers. Billboard musical performance at the Mandalay Beach, Exclusive Zook nightclub reception. You can also sample the latest on trend dishes in what's an event without expert breakout sessions to learn and get inspired by. They'll be covering marketing, staffing, profitability and the future of food service. I know I'll be attending the training to Retain session and there's also a dynamic pricing demystified session that I do not want to miss. It's time to get inspired, get connected, get fanatic. The clock is ticking. So Register now at www.usfoods.com food fanatics2025 or just head over to usfoods.com and look for the banner. Space is limited. Get on it.
- [55:18]
A
Yeah, and it doesn't mean that you don't communicate right. So I want that visionary rocking and rolling all over the place and talking to people, hearing what they've got to say, asking questions. So the communication can flow very freely, but the line is giving direction or making a decision. We want that to land at the place where the person actually has accountability for it.
- [55:40]
B
So is it. What's this word? Is it end run? I've never heard this word.
- [55:42]
A
End run.
- [55:43]
B
End run. Like, like, spell it for me.
- [55:45]
A
Like end.
- [55:45]
B
Okay.
- [55:46]
A
Are you in?
- [55:47]
B
Okay.
- [55:47]
A
It's an end run. It's running around the end.
- [55:49]
B
Got it.
- [55:50]
A
So.
- [55:51]
B
So that's number two in the the five rules. No end run starting with. So first one was stay on the same page. Second one is no end runs. And then the third One, because I have them written out. Here is the integrator is the icebreaker.
- [56:06]
A
Close the integrator. This is great. The integrator.
- [56:10]
B
Sorry, I don't know why it's an icebreaker.
- [56:12]
A
That's fantastic.
- [56:13]
B
It's the tiebreaker.
- [56:14]
A
Tiebreaker, yeah. So the integrator is the tiebreaker. And so here's what happens. So we want, again, we want decisions to live at the level of where we want the accountability to sit. Right. So ultimately, I want sales responsible for selling stuff.
- [56:26]
B
Yeah.
- [56:26]
A
I want OPS responsible for, you know, keeping the promise and making sure our service levels are high and delivering the product. I want finance responsible accountable for. For making sure that our numbers are accurate and timely and all that kind of good stuff. Right. So if that accountability sits at the appropriate level, those people are making decisions and we're holding them accountable for those decisions. But every once in a while, you get a bigger thing that is a little bit more strategic. Maybe it's cross functional. So it kind of cuts across things and you get a situation where let's say that ops is saying we need to go left and sales is saying we need to go right. And they can't get unstuck. So they're there, they're hearing each other, they're doing their best, but they just can't get past it. So at that point, we can't stay stuck. That's what will kill us. Right. So we got to make a call. So the integrator swings in. Here's both sides effectively in the context of the vision, the shared vision and the greater good of the entire organization. And then they make the call. And they make the call, not the visionary, because that integrator is just closer to the ground. They know more of the details about what's going on and what the current constraints are and all that. They're just in a better position, but they do so with accountability. So the visionary is holding them accountable for that decision being the right call.
- [57:40]
B
Got it. So number one, in these five rules stay on the same page. Number two, no end runs. Number three, the integrator is the tiebreaker. And then number four is you are an employee when working in the business.
- [57:51]
A
Oh, this is a good one for your audience. So this is speaking to owners who are also working in the business. Okay. And what we teach here is that.
- [58:01]
B
This might be hitting home with a.
- [58:02]
A
Lot of my listeners. So listen close. So ownership gives you two benefits. Okay? One benefit is your right to your share of the profits. However, we've drawn up that those get split Second is your right to a voice in the major decisions of the business. I did not say all, all the decisions of the business, but the major ones, the biggies. So are we going to take on new partners? Are we going to take on debt? We going to open a new location? We going to, you know, buy a building or sell a building or, you know, the biggies. Right. And to ask questions and get your information, your curiosity fulfilled. That's it. Okay. It does not say that you have a right to be an employee in the business. And that's going to maybe hit some people right in the face. What we want to be true, what we need to be true is that if somebody is going to work in the business and go back to that accountability chart and all the seats we're trying to fill, all the seats on the bus, right. If we're going to put an owner in one of those seats, it must be true that they are the best option we have. We couldn't go out into the world and hire somebody for that seat that would be better than that owner we just put in there. And they have to be held accountable for, for it. Just like some person that we hired off the street. They can't play what we call the owner's card that says, oh no, that doesn't apply to me. I'm an owner, I don't have to be in that meeting. I'm an owner, I don't have to hit those numbers. I'm an owner. Right. That changes everything for the whole system and really blows the integrity of what we're trying to do here. So when you are acting as an employee, if you're going to do that, you have to play by the rules just like all the other employees in the accountability chart.
- [59:40]
B
What, what is the title of these five rules again? I get the very top. The five rules to a productive VI relationship.
- [59:47]
A
Yeah, we just call them the five rules.
- [59:49]
B
Okay.
- [59:49]
A
But it's. If you, if I was going to expand the title, it's, it's the five rules to maximize your visionary integrator relationship.
- [59:56]
B
And so far we've covered stay on the same page, no end runs. The integrator is the tiebreaker and you are an employee when you're working in the business. And the last one is, I know.
- [60:06]
A
It'S maintain mutual respect. Yes.
- [60:08]
B
Nailed it. I mean that one sounds like a no brainer. Why is it so important?
- [60:11]
A
Well, so. Because it doesn't naturally happen sometimes. Right. And so the punchline here is the integrator is not your lackey. They're not less than, they're not someone that you look down on and that all the, you know, crap rolls down on them. But they're, they're your eye level partner. Meaning that you need to be able to lean into them and they must be strong enough to lean back into you. If they're not, you're probably, if you're a good visionary, going to just bulldoze them and just blow right through them. Or sometimes I describe it as melting them. A lot of times visionaries are so intense and just run at such a high, high frequency that they will literally melt an integrator if that integrator is not strong enough.
- [60:51]
B
Yeah, we've covered a lot of the big things I want to cover today. I do want to leave a teaser. If you have not yet checked out the book Rocket Fuel and the full working title. I think I wrote it down somewhere. What is the full working title? I know that's not it, but I.
- [61:05]
A
Think it's, I think it's how to get. How to get more of what you want from your business. Yeah, the one essential combination to help you get more of what you want from your business. So you're asking me these hard questions.
- [61:16]
B
So I do want to give a little teaser at the very end of the book. You talk about basically the seven steps. I don't think we can get through all those today. And you also share five tools. I believe it's five tools. So quick teaser, highlight, like 30,000 foot go over the seven steps.
- [61:33]
A
So the seven steps actually and how.
- [61:35]
B
To find your match.
- [61:35]
A
Yeah. The three piece puzzle I described for you earlier is a better short version of the seven steps. Just the punchline for the visionary is it starts with truly understanding yourself. So the first four steps are about that, you know, who are you? How are you? So we understand that shape of the visionary edge of the puzzle piece. That tells us what we're looking for in the shape of the complementary piece.
- [61:57]
B
Got it.
- [61:57]
A
So that's really what the seven steps is all about. And then getting the word out through your network through a recruiter. There are recruiters that specialize in finding integrators now. So it's sort of, you know, developed this whole cottage industry around the role at this point. In fact, many people have adopted the integrator title on LinkedIn. Really? Oh yeah. So you go search LinkedIn for an integrator and you'll find all kinds of folks.
- [62:21]
B
Yeah.
- [62:22]
A
And we even have an integrator community that's an EOS sponsored integrator. Community. We call it the Integrator Mastery Forum. So there's some people that are in that, that we've been. They've been trained, they've been through our integrator masterclass for, you know, what it looks like to truly be great as an integrator. That's where we teach them. So anyway, there's, there's lots of different pathways you can take to help you find.
- [62:42]
B
Yeah. And you go into detail in the book, at the very end of the book, like all the things you just mentioned. If you guys want to go take this knowledge deeper, I highly recommend the book Rocket Fuel. It's on audible. I know we're a lot of audio listeners in the restaurant industry. I am curious. List those five tools for me. Actually, let me reframe this question. If I were to go out tomorrow and do a EOS workshop where I'm covering the, the, the operational side of eos, the different processes that you're leveraging in eos, what would the title of those workshops be? Did, like round off a holistic workshop approach to eos?
- [63:22]
A
I'm not sure I completely understand the question.
- [63:25]
B
So for example, like, we know that we need to have the hierarchy, right? Or like with all, like, got to draw the hierarchy and have what we call it some. Something different, don't you?
- [63:34]
A
The accountability chart.
- [63:35]
B
Accountability. Thank you. The accountability chart. Level 10 meetings, annual meetings. Like what, like what are the.
- [63:41]
A
So we call these the foundational tools.
- [63:44]
B
Got it.
- [63:45]
A
So maybe that's kind of what you're after.
- [63:47]
B
Yes.
- [63:47]
A
So, you know, the, the number one here is, is the, the vto, the Vision Traction Organizer, which answers what we call the core questions, the eight core questions about your business. And this is where we get that clarity. Thinking about the visionary integrator relationship again of. All right, where are we truly trying to go with this thing that's super important to get on the same page with your integrator about. Second thing from there is the accountability chart. So that structural tool that lets you be intentional about the structure that you think is going to have the highest probability of getting you where. From where you are to this next place you're trying to go, maybe look in 12 to 18 months down the road, right. Gives you that roadmap and lets you start moving your structure into that, into that piece. From there, we've got rocks. So what are those priorities that we're going to be laser focused on for the next 90 days that are going to be those most impactful things? Remember my stay above the line statement, the beginning so the things that are really above the line for you, next thing is the meeting pulse. So that includes your two day annual planning, your one day quarterly planning, and then your weekly level 10 meeting, which is 90 minutes that you're spending together with your leadership team, catching up on where we stand on everything, having some accountability around how we're doing on, on, on the rocks and the to do's and then spending a big chunk of time really working on the issues. The things that you currently see that could be getting in the way of where you're trying to go. And then the fifth one is your scorecard. So the handful of measurables that you look at every week, Right. And you look for those patterns and things that kind of begin to jump out, that help you ultimately see issues sooner than you would have if you hadn't been watching those numbers. Right. And the idea there is, you know, you're driving down the road rather than just kind of waking up in the ditch. You see yourself headed towards the ditch and you can bring it back on the road before you end up over there.
- [65:35]
B
Got it. How many total? Like, where are, where is EOS today in terms of like numbers and scale? Like, do you have any KPIs you can share there in terms of like how many like integrators are you. I think you already said like 10,000.
- [65:48]
A
Well, no, so, so implementers, sorry, we're at about a thousand thousand. Okay. And then as far as companies that are running on EOS, interesting story there. So we, Geno's 10 year target, when, when it originally started was 10,000 companies running on EOS as measured by someone who had professionally implemented with, with a professional implementer. So we blew through that a couple of years ago and so now we're headed towards 100,000. Wow. So we're, I don't know what the latest number is, maybe 30 or 35,000, something like that. And then we believe that for every one of those that has professionally implemented, there's probably 10 that have done it kind of on their own, they've self implemented. So that kind of gives you an idea of how big that number may be. Hundreds of thousands.
- [66:36]
B
I mean there's definitely a pattern in my work where I'm finding more and more people that are using EOs and these things that we talked about today. And is there anything that you, have you ever worked with a restaurant in terms of being an implementer?
- [66:49]
A
I have.
- [66:50]
B
Are there anything that's unique relative to the restaurant industry that maybe might not fit the, the mold of eos. Exactly.
- [66:57]
A
So not really. I mean, the, the challenging thing is how you get the service staff hooked into the meeting pulse at the, at the more granular level on the weekly level or daily level. And so, you know, we don't prescribe like a daily huddle, but that's super important, it feels like, for the restaurant industry. And not just a daily huddle, but maybe a shift huddle or different things like that. So you've got to pull your, you know, whatever works for you there. But the idea, the principle underneath that just recognize is about connection. It's about getting, making sure everyone is plugged in and connected in a way that we can communicate to them, they can communicate to us, and we can tap into their brain power to solve the issues, solve the puzzles that we're trying to solve along the way. That ultimately helps. Helps everyone.
- [67:43]
B
Yeah. And so would that daily Pulse be an L10 format in terms of the Level 10 weekly meeting?
- [67:49]
A
Similar to it, yeah, so it does. I mean, some of the restaurants that I've worked and I haven't worked with a ton, but I've worked with like, restaurant consulting companies that work with a lot. Right. And they also operate concepts of their own. So I've kind of seen it from both sides. And I've worked with some other just straight up restaurants that have like a single brand concept. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily be that rigid. So I think as long as one of the meeting pulses that they're plugging into has something like the level 10 agenda. But then I think what I'm saying is that I think there's another more frequent pulse that happens that's not that, not that robust. That's kind of a. Here's the biggies for today. Boom, boom. Done.
- [68:29]
B
Yep, got it. Anything we did not discuss today that you were hoping would come out of today's conversation? Question I should have asked you.
- [68:35]
A
Yeah, just that, I mean, I think we hit all the, all the main things. I think the, the punchline for me, Eric, is just, it's the, it's the power of the. That role and the power of that duo combination. So a visionary integrator that works, that they, they, they have a strong relationship, they trust each other, they're firing on all cylinders. The impact they can drive through their organization, through to the people in their organization and beyond is unlike anything that, that you see. I'll give you an example of that thought. So we, we talked about how challenging it can be to go find that integrator when you have to go look outside, which is most commonly the case. And I'll also tell you, it doesn't always happen. In fact, more often than not, it doesn't happen on the first time.
- [69:21]
B
Yeah. So marriage today.
- [69:24]
A
So. So prepare. Fortunately, prepare for a little pain there. And I have a client that. So I went through my clients, and for my clients, the average was 1.4. It took 1.4 tries to. To get it right. Okay. Yeah. The one that took the longest was four tries. Wow. And it was painful. And to that visionary's credit, they persevered. They didn't give up hope. They learned every time they turned that crank and it. And it didn't work. And then they finally hit it on number four, and it was like. I mean, they just took off like a rocket. No pun intended. But that's exactly what happened.
- [69:59]
B
I think you have some tools for basically online dating for this combination, don't you?
- [70:03]
A
Yeah. So we have a couple of different things. If you go to rocketfielduniversity.com and look, there's. There's a connection course. So basically it kind of walks you through these things that I'm saying you need to do to really know yourself as a visionary. That helps you understand what you're really looking for, getting clarity on that, and then some pathways and tools to kind of help you really begin to look for it in the world.
- [70:24]
B
What else can we find at Rocket Fuel University?
- [70:26]
A
Well, lots of things. So you can. There's a course called Rocket Fuel 101, which is free, and it's video teaching for kind of some of the basics. Think of it as the video version of some of the key principles in the book, some of the things we've talked about today. So going a little bit deeper there, we have a master class training that's available for both visionaries and integrators. Both of those teach what it looks like to be truly great as either one of those roles and kind of ten pillars of greatness that you need to be really strong at. And then for integrators, we have another step beyond that where they can join our Integrator Mastery Forum, which is like a peer group for integrators. So you can imagine sitting in a room with other folks that are dealing with the same kind of stuff you are, realizing that you're not alone in this stuff and learning from each other, helping each other, hopefully get there a little bit faster and hopefully get to where you're trying to get without, you know, stepping in all the holes. You know, everybody doesn't have to go through all that pain.
- [71:18]
B
And you do have some new projects coming out that I want to give you a chance to spread the word about. Two new books.
- [71:23]
A
Three new books. Three new books, yeah. So this fall, the Visionary books. I don't have a the final title yet, but you can kind of think of it as how to be a great visionary. Then in the spring, another book on exponential freedom, which is about the nine domains of freedom and how to define those for yourself and how to go get whatever your unique freedom is. And it turns out that yours looks different than mine looks different from our friends. So if you don't know what that looks like, then it's going to be tough to go get it and make it happen. And then in the fall of the 26, the integrator book or how to be a great Integrator.
- [71:57]
B
Beautiful. Can't wait for those come out. You know, I will be thinking, be an audio. I'm a big audio book person. I'm driving all over the country.
- [72:03]
A
I love audio. What speed did you listen to?
- [72:05]
B
Rocket fuel 1.5.
- [72:07]
A
There you go.
- [72:07]
B
Yeah, I usually listen at times too, so I slowed it down to be make.
- [72:10]
A
To make sure I'm 1.5 to 2.
- [72:13]
B
Yeah. So this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. If we want to follow up, if you want to reach out to your organization, any like special links or anything we should know about in terms of connection?
- [72:26]
A
Yeah, just for me, I'm at Mark C. Winters on pretty much any platform that you want to want to find and the website is markc winters.com and all the links to everything are there.
- [72:37]
B
One more thing. If I were to follow up and get a restaurant group or a consultant that specializes in restaurants and EOs, who comes to mind? Like city work with some people, I'm always looking for the next guest.
- [72:47]
A
Well, so one of those is actually an EOS implementer now.
- [72:51]
B
Okay.
- [72:51]
A
Yeah. So I can introduce you to that person.
- [72:56]
B
Okay, we'll. We'll tell me off air. But I definitely want to lead from that. I know you know so many people and we are at time, so I'm going to say goodbye now. And this is where I say I literally cannot do what I do without people like you making time for me to share your knowledge. To take us one step further. There is no questioning, my man. You are unstoppable.
- [73:13]
A
Thanks, Eric.