Restaurant Unstoppable #1219 – Aaron Lyons, CEO & Founder, Five 12 Restaurant Concepts Podcast with Eric Cacciatore | September 15, 2025

Overview

This episode features a candid, deep-dive interview with Aaron Lyons, founder and CEO of Five 12 Restaurant Concepts (Dish Society and Daily Gather). Returning for a follow-up to his 2019 appearance, Aaron discusses how his business weathered COVID-19, evolved operational models, embraced technology, and focused on growth, efficiency, and values-driven leadership. The conversation covers practical financial benchmarks, tech stacks, the realities of restaurant profitability, and philosophical reflections on industry change, consumer perceptions, and the future of hospitality.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Business evolution post-COVID
• Unapologetic pricing for quality and sustainability
• Shifts in service model and labor
• Tech and marketing evolution, third-party platforms
• The challenge of profit in today's market
• Leading with values and building culture
• The role of community versus digital marketing

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pricing, Value, and Unapologetic Cost Increases

• COVID as industry correction: Aaron states restaurants have "undercharged for 20 years" and that recent years have forced a reset on pricing and labor standards. (00:10, 35:37)
• Differentiating by target customer: Quality at Dish Society isn't directly comparable to competitors like IHOP, especially given focus on sourcing and ingredient quality.
  • Quote: “People expect Four Seasons service and quality on McDonald's prices… If you want quality, you just gotta pay for it.” – Aaron Lyons, [00:32], [35:57]
• Unapologetic about price increases: 25%+ menu price growth since 2019, primarily to cover labor and food inflation, not higher profits. (00:00, 35:26)

2. Adapting Operations & Service Model

• Pre- and post-COVID shift: Experimented with "flex-casual" (counter service by day, full service by night). COVID forced a full move to counter service; streamlined operations and reduced turnover. (09:45–11:06)
  • Quote: "It really streamlined operations and really simplified things quite a bit." – Aaron Lyons, [11:06]
• Efficiency gains: COVID exposed where things were "bloated." Cutting menu and labor, focusing on fewer, higher-quality team members. (40:22–43:21)
• Parkinson’s Law realization: Less staff can mean more efficient operations when people are empowered and expectations are high. (43:44–48:04)

3. Financial Benchmarks, Unit Economics, & Growth

• Prime costs: Labor in low 20s %, COGS around 28–29%. Targeting mid-to-low 50s for combined prime costs, aiming for 6% or lower occupancy cost. (13:03–14:33)
• Profitability: Store-level profit varies (11–15% at lower-volume stores, low 20s% at higher-volume units). Delivery fees and G&A cut into margins. (14:47–15:54)
• Revenue growth via price, not headcount: Sales up about 25% since 2019, but guest counts flat. (18:15–18:39)
• Selective site growth: Suburbs underperform vs. urban units; location selection adjusted over time. (30:40–35:14)
• Healthy growth focus: Not all growth is good—“adding muscle rather than fat.” Reluctant to open more units until performance at current stores is maximized. (45:35, 89:38–90:46)
  • Quote: “Are you growing in a healthy way or are you just adding weight?” – Aaron Lyons, [89:53]

4. Technology as an Accelerator & Marketing Reality Check

• Tech stack investments:
  • Olo for online and third-party ordering aggregation (early adopter pre-pandemic).
  • Thanks for loyalty/app (allows sophisticated segmentation/custom rewards).
  • NCR Aloha for in-house POS.
  • HeyMarket for real-time, text-based in-store feedback. (49:14–54:37; 93:33)
• Migration strategy: Flyers, outreach, direct offers used to move orders from 3rd party to direct app/website ordering, avoiding third-party commission. (59:12–60:13)
• Third-party pros/cons: Necessary evil for exposure, but strips brand data/profit and is no longer only “incremental sales.” (60:23–63:56)
• Path of least resistance: Recognizes consumer habits driven by convenience—tech platforms win by making it frictionless. (63:56–66:47)
• Marketing—new challenges: Digital spend (SEO, SEM, social) now essential; rising costs and complexity. Community involvement remains the best "marketing" but is increasingly supplemented by digital content/data efforts. (70:17–79:37)

5. Culture, Leadership, and Values-Driven Management

• Values as compass: “There’s no growth in the comfort zone and no comfort in the growth zone.” (06:05)
• Culture, not just family: Focused on building "high-performing teams"—not “family,” but respect, shared mission, excellence. (108:13)
• Leaders’ evolution: More self-aware, less reactive, more positive intent—leadership means asking, “What am I tolerating?” and confronting issues quickly. (46:13–47:42, 105:41)
  • Quote: "What you tolerate in your presence is your standard." – Eric Cacciatore, [46:59]
• Handling feedback: All managers required to respond to every review within 24 hours. Real-time feedback systems preferred over automated review platforms to maintain accountability. (93:35–95:20)

6. Industry Philosophy and Realities

• False perceptions: Media and awards overhype profitability; most top-tier restaurants struggle with sustainability like everyone else. (110:42–111:52)
• Advice on priorities: Focus energy inside your four walls—community, hospitality, culture. Digital marketing necessary, but shouldn't eclipse the real work. (78:55–81:27)
  • Quote: “The best marketing you can do as a restaurant is just take care of business inside your four walls.” – Aaron Lyons, [77:23]
• Reflection on consumer mindset: Many consumers lack appreciation for what it really takes to run a restaurant; a generation never having worked in the industry likely contributes to unrealistic expectations. (98:34–100:53)
• AI in restaurants: Recognizes utility for efficiency, but wary of negatives (loss of trust, authenticity, potential for “dumbing down”). AI-assisted phone answering/services are on the horizon. (101:28–104:39)

Notable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• "People expect Four Seasons service and quality on McDonald's prices. If you want quality, you just gotta pay for it." – Aaron Lyons, [00:32]
• "There’s no growth in the comfort zone and no comfort in the growth zone." – Aaron Lyons, [06:05]
• "I’d rather have three studs than five average B or C players." – Aaron Lyons, [41:49]
• Parkinson’s Law realization (Doing more with less): “If you have 5 line cooks, they’re probably not working at 100%. Maybe they’re at 80%. If you have 3… at 95%, you’ll get the same result.” – [42:08]
• "What you tolerate in your presence is your standard." – Eric Cacciatore, [46:59]
• On authentic marketing: "The best marketing you can do as a restaurant is just take care of business inside your four walls." – [77:23]
• Growth philosophy: "Are you getting heavier or are you getting stronger?" – Aaron Lyons, [89:53]
• Challenge to industry narratives: "Everyone’s struggling right now. What we see of the restaurant industry online is usually just… publications are not really telling the full story." – Eric Cacciatore, [110:42]
• Values and leadership: “We are a values-driven company… it makes it very easy to make decisions, difficult decisions, any decision.” – Aaron Lyons, [106:34]

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Opening: Pricing, industry correction, COVID impact – [00:00–01:31]
• Business update, expansion, closures, service model changes – [06:21–14:10]
• In-depth unit economics & financial benchmarks – [13:02–16:19]
• Tech stack breakdown: Olo, Thanks, and feedback systems – [49:14–56:43]
• Third-party delivery, consumer behavior, and digital habits – [60:23–67:19]
• Marketing evolution and 'noise' in the industry – [70:17–77:23]
• Growth philosophy: Muscle, not fat – [89:38–90:46]
• Customer feedback systems & culture focus – [93:33–95:43]
• AI conversation, hospitality vs. convenience – [101:28–105:13]
• Personal transformation & wisdom – [105:41–110:30]

Summary for New Listeners

This episode is invaluable if you want to hear what it’s really like running and growing a successful multi-unit restaurant business in 2025. Aaron shares hard numbers, honest lessons, and actionable insights on leadership, embracing efficiency, leveraging technology, and the realities of running a values-driven company in a market tilted by consumer expectation, digital platforms, and fierce economic pressure. Whether you're an owner, manager, or aspiring restaurateur, Aaron’s unfiltered wisdom, joined with Eric’s probing facilitation, delivers a revealing blueprint that demystifies the “overnight success” myth and underscores the power—and necessity—of persistence, adaptability, and authentic leadership.

For more info, resources, and detailed episode show notes, visit restaurantunstoppable.com