Restaurant Unstoppable Podcast – Episode 1229

Guest: Hannah Selinger, Author of Cellar Rat: My Life in the Restaurant Underbelly

Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Eric Cacciatore

Episode Overview

In this revealing and wide-ranging episode, Eric sits down with acclaimed journalist and memoirist Hannah Selinger to explore the crucial issues impacting the restaurant industry, as illuminated in her memoir Cellar Rat: My Life in the Restaurant Underbelly. Together, they tackle the challenges facing independent restaurants, the urgent need for labor reform, toxic hierarchies like the brigade system, lack of accountability, and the often-damaging influence of media and award culture.

Using Hannah's personal journey as a springboard, this conversation shines a light on the labor realities, power dynamics, and societal pressures shaping restaurants today. Both Eric and Hannah advocate for a more just, equitable, and sustainable industry—without glossing over hard truths.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Industry Under Threat

• [06:55] Culture & Power Dynamics: Hannah references her mantra—"Damn the man. Save Empire Records."—as representative of her pushback against growing corporate influence in restaurants, and her fervor for labor rights and independent business survival.

• [07:36] Labor in Peril:

  • "We are looking at an industry in peril, that the restaurant industry has been in peril for a long time, and certainly Covid contributed to that...the labor, restaurant labor is in jeopardy." (Hannah, 07:36)
  • Both Eric and Hannah agree: it’s getting harder for independents to provide fair opportunity and good working conditions.

Exposing the Brigade System

• [12:31] Ending Hierarchical Abuse:

  • Hannah zeroes in on the Escoffier-inspired brigade system as a major driver of inequality and abuse in kitchens, where the top-down respect structure enables ego and exploitation.
  • "That system is based and predicated upon inequality.... Why aren't we training people to all learn the same skill? Why does someone have to be at the top and someone have to be at the bottom?" (Hannah, 12:31)
  • She shares intense firsthand accounts, particularly under celebrity chefs, of verbal abuse justified by the system:
    • "He came very in very hot...and said, 'Oh, you're doing this incorrectly. I'm gonna murder you. I'm gonna scalp you. Like, I'll kill your fucking family.'" (Hannah, 14:15)
  • Eric acknowledges the prevalence of such toxicity across generations, noting both the need for accountability and the difficulty of changing long-standing industry habits.

• [18:54] Solutions & Accountability:

  • Eric suggests alternatives like accountability charts over rigid hierarchies: "It's really more about accountability than hierarchy."
  • Both agree that mechanisms must be in place so that with authority comes responsibility, and abuse is not tolerated.

Labor Realities & Reform

• [26:31] Demanding Equity for Restaurant Workers:

  • Hannah lists tangible changes needed:
    • "Eight to ten hour work days and reasonable holidays, like two weeks a year...and healthcare benefits...reasonable minimum wage...so that they don't have to scramble around to live normal lives." (Hannah, 26:31)
  • She gives personal examples of lack of empathy and job insecurity in times of crisis:
    • "...I went into work one day on Easter Sunday and informed my managers that my father had just been diagnosed. And I was given sort of no empathy...I was categorically fired a few days later." (Hannah, 27:49)

• [32:47] The Trap of ‘Flexibility’ in Restaurants:

  • The supposed flexibility of restaurant work is exposed as a myth: "Actually, it's the opposite, because when someone says to you, I have a wedding on XYZ weekend...I have no idea. I can put in a request...Who knows?" (Hannah, 32:05)

• [35:03]/[33:24] Wage Realities and Exploitation:

  • Hannah discusses the historical tipped minimum wage of $2.13/hr and how much unpaid labor goes into side work and non-service hours.
  • "After taxes, you get a paycheck for $20." (Hannah, 35:02)

• [37:13] Imagining Solutions:

  • Ideas debated include:
    • Eliminating tipping (but lacking a viable U.S. model so far)
    • Unionization as a potential win-win
    • Government subsidies for independent restaurants
    • Profit-sharing, bonus programs, and employee ownership models

• [41:25] Government Support / Ownership:

  • "If the government were to...recognize the needs of independent restaurants and how necessary they are...and were to help support independent restaurants...it could certainly help." (Hannah, 40:46)

• [49:49] Credibility Crisis:

  • Eric: “People in the industry say, like, nobody wants to come work for us...But at the same time...we’re not doing the things that ‘real jobs’ do.”
  • Hannah: “Look, people got wise to that in the pandemic, right?”

Industry Accountability & Abuse

• [50:54] Call for Accountability:

  • Hannah stresses the need for true accountability, especially for high-profile abusers. "Some of these people should never be back in the industry, and some of them should probably be in prison. Batali should be in prison. I don't want another story about reframing this person..." (Hannah, 57:59–58:23)
  • Criticizes how powerful figures often evade consequences and return to public life with minimal repercussions.

• [62:05] Media Enabling & Selective Amnesia:

  • Even after publishing a viral exposé on David Chang, Hannah continued to receive press releases about him.
  • "There was no reverberation about what had happened. Like, it was like people just forgot about it." (Hannah, 63:04)
  • Brings up the troubling pattern of the media propping up problematic figures because of influence and money.

The Toxic Impact of Media & Award Culture

• [65:04] Awards as a Loaded Currency:

  • Both Eric and Hannah agree that industry awards (James Beard, Michelin, etc.) are often inaccessible, expensive, and favor those with money and connections.
  • "You can pay $75 per submission and pay to nominate yourself. So what does that do to the field? It means that wealthier people have a leg up..." (Hannah, 67:12)

• [71:00–72:00] Appearances vs. Substance:

  • Discussion of how marketing and awards have hijacked the industry narrative and distorted consumers’ sense of which restaurants (and which people) are ‘successful’ or worthy of support.
  • "Marketing is the bane of human existence because...the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Marketing is at the leading edge of that..." (Eric, 78:06)
  • Hannah: "Here's what I feel like is the most dangerous...the seamless transition...from journalism to advertorial...no one seems to think twixt what we run as a story and what we run as marketing." (Hannah, 79:40)

Consumer Responsibility & Reality

• [74:39] Families Priced Out:
  • "Dining out has become sadly a luxury. It's not even affordable to go to a casual venue anymore...for a family of four just to, like, eat dinner." (Hannah, 75:03)
• [76:50] Escapism vs. Transparency:
  • "We don't want them [consumers] to know what's really going on...But we can't curate that experience for $50 a person anymore..." (Hannah, 76:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Respect and Genius in Service
  "Someone who's a service professional does have genius. They're a hospitality genius. They know what, they can predict what a guest might want...there are all different kinds of genius in a restaurant."
  — Hannah Selinger (22:22)

• On Media Complicity
  "Why would they take seriously me and privately tell me how influential and important my work is, and then out of the other side of their mouth, be propping him up? I don't know, maybe because of money."
  — Hannah Selinger (64:42)

• On the Need for Systemic Change
  "My obligation is to bring this up and to talk about what’s wrong...I don’t know what the best way in is. I don’t know what the best way out is. But I have seen so many things that concern me..."
  — Hannah Selinger (47:36–48:36)

• On Ownership and Employee Empowerment:
  "I love anything that gives people at the bottom an opportunity to rise to the middle [or] the top. Anything that…offers a level playing field for anyone."
  — Hannah Selinger (47:36)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:46] – Hannah’s mantra and ethos
• [12:31] – Why the brigade system needs to go
• [14:15–15:40] – Example of toxic hierarchy in action
• [26:31–29:47] – Labor: firing, lack of empathy, unstable work, harmful myths
• [32:47–33:24] – The reality of hourly wages and side work
• [37:13–41:25] – Labor reform, pay models, government support
• [50:54] – Accountability for industry abusers
• [62:05] – Failure of media to hold power to account
• [65:04–69:43] – Award culture, exclusivity, and its impact
• [73:13] – Marketing, media, and consumer perception
• [75:03–76:50] – The cost of dining out and the consumer’s predicament
• [79:40] – Journalism vs. advertorial and the integrity crisis

Closing Reflections

• Hannah expresses both hope and skepticism for the future of restaurants:
  "I hope we can make the changes that we aspire to in the industry. And it's a place that I love very, very much." (81:31)

• She gives a shout-out to a peer running a model restaurant:
  "My friend Jared runs a restaurant called Dead Horse Hill in Worcester. I'll give him a shout out." (82:40)

Suggested Next Listen

• For those interested in organizational change, labor law, or alternative compensation: see previous episodes with experts on EOS, profit-sharing, and restaurant labor reform.

Final Takeaways

This conversation is a vital listen for anyone who wants a raw, honest perspective on the restaurant world’s biggest challenges—and the change agents working toward a more just and sustainable industry. Both the problems and the potential solutions are laid out with clarity, humility, and a deep affection for the craft and its people.