← Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore
Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore
1239: Willet Feng and Diane Wu Feng, Co-Owners of burger-can
01:59:51
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- [00:00]
A
What up Unstoppables? We just want to say thank you so much for your support of this podcast. We cannot do what we do without people like you hitting play every day. Those downloads keep this show going and just thank you so much. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the industry. When I say transform the industry, I want to see a future where there's fewer 100 plus unit operators and more 10 to 20 unit operators. How do we spread the money out and how do we keep the restaurant industry in the hands of the independence? But how do we also make the people, these independent operators, wealthy? How do we increase your profit? How do we increase your freedom? That's what we're trying to do here. And I think we do it by sharing knowledge, sharing perspective, sharing information, doing it together. And that's what Restaurant Stoppable Network's all about is it's about bringing people together to share knowledge, to the share perspective, to to withhold and keep control of our own industry. That's what we're trying to do at Restaurant Stoppable. So you make that possible every time you hit play. So if you enjoy this podcast, continue to listen to it, share it, subscribe, follow, like, do all the things. And please consider joining us over at Restaurant Unstoppable Network. Head over to restaurantstoppable.com live. Be a part of the conversation if you enjoy today's conversation. Our guests will be live in the network, so be sure to stick around to the end where I'll tell you what day and time you can engage and speak with today's guests. Enjoy today's show. Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1000 episodes I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and and the next. Listen to today's guest and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is made possible by Sir Bony your all in one bookkeeping and financial solution. We're talking about reliable tax preparation, business incorporation, seamless payroll and compliance reports, Strategic CFO services that drive business growth. Detailed custom reporting for complete financial clarity. Dedicated support for restaurants in multi location businesses. Did I mention bookkeeping late? Sir Bony? Handle the number so you can focus on the vision. Call Sir Bony today at 281-888-2413 to schedule your free 30 minute consultation and discover House Bony can streamline your operations and boost your bottom line. Limited Time Offer an exclusive to Restaurant Stoppable listeners. Mention this Message and get 20 off your first month of services. This episode is made possible by US Foods and one of the pillars of the US Foods We Help you make it promise is More Tools which provides resources designed to make running your food service operation easier and more efficient. From the all in one food service app Moxy which goes beyond order placement to help manage every part of your operation. 24. Seven to the digital solutions like check business tools and vitals, US Foods delivers smart time saving tools built to simplify operations and support your success. To learn more visit www.usfoods.com expect more this episode is made possible by Mees. Mies is a digital recipe platform that helps you stay creative, build profitable menus and nail food execution at scale. We know to scale you need consistency because consistency builds trust with your guests and your staff. We all want to know what the job done right looks like and when you have systems, your systems are a picture of perfection of what that job done right is and that puts us to peace. We are so happy when we know we're doing a good job. Me will be the one source of truth for your entire team. It's time to take control of your profitability. Learn more at www.getmes.com unstoppable that's www.g e t m e e z.com unstoppable this episode is made possible by Restaurant Systems Pro and beginning in January 2026, Restaurant Systems Pro is going to be doing a 30 day mastery program. This is valued at $4,000 and if you head over to go.restaurantassistancepro.net profits. You can for a limited time get this for only 97 but there's an even better deal if you sign up for a Restaurant Unstoppable network by heading to restaurantstoppable.com live. You can get this 30 day MA program for free when you join the community. And you also get access to this in perpetuity because they're going to be popping it off every month. Go into 2026 with all the knowledge and resources and tools you need to be Unstoppable in partnership with Restaurant Unstoppable and Restaurant Systems Pro. Again, Restaurant Unstoppable.com live join the community. Get access to this training with excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guest co founders and co owners of Burger Chan Will it Fang Diane Wu F and we were hoping Ryan is going to join us. Maybe I'll get him later in the week. He is feeling unwell, but we're going to do what we can without him. I can't wait to get into it. But before we find out who you are and what your business is all about, let's get that motivational inspirational ball rolling with a success quote or mantra. What do you got for me?
- [05:44]
B
Okay, so I came prepared with my little notebook. All right. It takes a lot of courage to release the familiar and seemingly secure to embrace the new. But there is no real security in what is no longer meaningful. There is more security in the adventurous and exciting. For in movement, there is life, and in change, there is power.
- [06:09]
C
Yes.
- [06:09]
A
Dive into why you think that is so powerful.
- [06:12]
B
And then we'll.
- [06:12]
A
We'll move over to you, Willa.
- [06:13]
B
Oh, and I have to. I have to give a shout out to Alan Cohen. You gotta give your sources. I don't know which Alan Cohen it is, but it's an Alan Cohen.
- [06:20]
A
Your teacher background is really shining through today with your notes, being prepared and making sure you give your sources. I really admire it. So why did that resonate with you? Why did you share that today?
- [06:33]
B
It resonates with me because I don't want to get really teary, but I got breast cancer.
- [06:39]
A
Oh, that's rough.
- [06:41]
B
I don't want this to be a therapy session. Right.
- [06:44]
A
Is this the recent news?
- [06:46]
C
Yeah, within the. This year. Wow.
- [06:48]
A
Well, I'm sorry that you're dealing with that, but keep going.
- [06:50]
B
And so I had to take a step back.
- [06:52]
A
Yeah.
- [06:53]
B
And really be like, what's worth it. So.
- [06:56]
A
Well, thank you for getting vulnerable. Thank you for opening up. And, you know, when I hear you say that, I think to myself in. We have to grow. We have to evolve. If we're not growing, we're going to be left behind. You have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And when you take. I think. I think wanting that desire to be secure.
- [07:16]
B
Yeah.
- [07:16]
A
Holds us back because we want to feel safe and secure. And when we get out, we put ourselves out there, we get vulnerable.
- [07:21]
B
I mean, you want that control. It's like, you know, you're not in control, but you always so want to control as much as you can.
- [07:26]
A
Exactly. Yeah. And I think in order to grow, in order to get better, in order to. To be more secure because you're growing, you have to take risks. You have to get out there. So that was a great way to get this thing started. And will it. What do you got for us?
- [07:40]
C
So mine is not as deep but it's very applicable to the kitchen. It is blood, sweat, and respect. The first two you give, the last one you earn. And I'll cite my sources, you may have heard of him, the Rock or Dwayne Johnson. And we memeified it at the restaurant and there's a picture of me below it, just saying, please don't get the first two, the blood and sweat into our food. Yeah. Keep it sanitary.
- [08:08]
A
Yeah. And you have to make those deposits.
- [08:10]
C
Right.
- [08:10]
A
You have to put the work in, you have to do the work to be able to get the returns. That's what I think of when I hear you share that.
- [08:16]
C
Yeah, I think when people open a restaurant and they don't have enough experience, they don't get the respect. And I think it's important to, to. Exactly. To put in the work, pay your dues and. And then people know you're serious when you start.
- [08:29]
A
100. All right, so before we dive into your story and found out how you got to where you are today, let's paint that picture of where you are today. So how many total concepts are you working with today?
- [08:41]
C
We have two concepts. So we have Burger Chan, which we founded back in 2016. And then we had a concept that we came up with a few years ago but never got off the ground called Borrowed Goods. Diane came up with both names, by the way. Borrowed Goods started as a Singaporean concept. And so because Singapore is a melting pot, they borrow from a lot of cultures. So the food there has, you know, influences from India, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Britain. And so it started as a passion project because I went to a boarding school in Singapore for a couple of years back for middle school. And right now, since we've stepped away from the restaurant a bit, we've had time to do pop ups and we kind of revived the concept. Yeah.
- [09:40]
A
And your business partner who was hopefully going to try to join us today, hopefully later in the week, we can connect with him. He's kind of making that possible. Right. He's stepping in and you're stepping out to focus on new projects. Yes, we'll get into that. So your burger concept, Burger Chan, one unit. How much are you willing to say up, like what your, your, your percent prime costs are, like how you're splitting that up and what your percent profit is.
- [10:07]
C
Sure. So to be honest, since the transition, I'm not super familiar with the numbers as much as Ryan. Yeah. So yeah, hopefully you get to speak to him. He'll have all the, like, numbers dialed in.
- [10:19]
A
But if you could take an educated Guess ballpark not to be spot on.
- [10:24]
C
Sure. So, I mean, as far as cost of goods, I know it hovers somewhere between 30 and 35. Food costs have been going crazy. I think Ryan's done a really good job of, you know, shopping from different distributors and having them go against each other. Yeah. That was something I think I was a little less good at. I was good at, you know, going to different stores and supplementing with what I needed to keep the cost down. Just kind of taking it into my own hands.
- [10:55]
A
Right.
- [10:56]
C
But being really loyal to one broad line distributor. Obviously, when things got too crazy, I would tell them, like, hey, you know, like, I'm seeing this product.
- [11:06]
A
We'll get into the details of, like, how you guys are playing the game.
- [11:08]
C
Yeah.
- [11:09]
A
But I'm just trying to get a snapshot right now. So between 30 and 35% on your. Your cost of goods. What about labor? Where are you getting there?
- [11:15]
C
Labor, I believe, is probably still around 30.
- [11:19]
A
Okay, so you're getting a. Right. Or between 65 and 60 prime cost, which is good that you're hitting targets, right?
- [11:27]
C
Yeah.
- [11:28]
A
Where are you at with your percent profit?
- [11:32]
C
I think since they took over. They took over back in April. Yeah.
- [11:35]
A
So they being Silver lining hospitality.
- [11:37]
C
Silver lining Hospitality.
- [11:39]
A
Ryan Stewart's business.
- [11:41]
C
I am not sure there is any profit right now. I think they have been continually investing more to upgrade everything.
- [11:49]
A
Got it.
- [11:49]
C
So that's been kind of the most exciting thing. They're trying to ramp up operations. They've increased the hours of operation by a lot. Like, we used to be lunch only six days a week. It's currently seven days a week with dinner on, like, four nights, I think.
- [12:08]
A
Okay. So they're ramping up. So where you guys are, you basically, you have this concept getting national accolades, national press. I know you mentioned Yelp as a top 100 restaurant. You're like, number 24, 27 out of 100. One year. I mean, I don't know Yelp there. So, I mean, I'm sure you guys earned the accolades, don't get me wrong. But anyway. But more importantly, I think locally here you're getting also accolades. What were those accolades?
- [12:37]
B
Houston Chronicle, top 100 restaurants. I know the food critics have written about us, and they've been really nice, but ultimately, like, people coming into the door, I think, is the ultimate accolade.
- [12:48]
A
Can you. Can we get into the ballpark of where you are with revenue to get it? Get an idea of kind of the volume you're doing?
- [12:55]
C
Sure. So historically, we've been a little Short of a million each year. But now with all the increased hours, we're going to, we're going to finally break through the million.
- [13:04]
A
And how many seats do you guys have?
- [13:06]
C
We have a little under 50 inside. And then we got patio that you know is about another like 40.
- [13:13]
A
Got it, got it. And what about your new concept? And do you want to speak to the new concept? Because it's kind of your. Was it your idea?
- [13:21]
B
It's always like a combination of us. So Borrowed goods, the name comes from, obviously it was Singaporean, but also I think it transcends just that in that everything is borrowed. Right. If you're creating a new dish, you're borrowing it from somewhere. Right. If he created a sauce, he's borrowing it from his time in Shanghai. Right. So that resonated for me, the name, regardless if it was Singaporean or not. And I think that with, with the partnership, we wanted to kind of differentiate ourselves to be like, yes, we'll always be Burger Chan, but now we're borrowed goods. And borrowed goods really is just us. It's our project. It's constantly evolving like, like us as people. And so we've been doing pop ups. He's been testing dish ideas. It's just. It's us.
- [14:15]
C
Yeah.
- [14:16]
A
Honestly. And I don't know if my opinions are going to be shared on this one, but I think that everything that is knowledge, everything that is known by human beings by. By humanity is borrowed goods.
- [14:28]
B
Yeah.
- [14:28]
A
You know, if we know it today.
- [14:30]
B
Yeah.
- [14:30]
A
I think that we should all have access that new knowledge. Whether. You know, I think sometimes I wonder how I feel about, you know, like copywriting and like, you know, like what's not copywriting but trademark? Trademark or not trademark. But what's the other thing that's like when you get to apply to get a way to do something like, like a patent. That's the word I'm looking for. It's like these things. I understand why we have to protect our intellectual property because it's our, well, our well being, our welfare, you know, our security.
- [14:59]
B
Yeah.
- [15:00]
A
Is. Was. Pull me back to your original quote. But when we lock innovation behind closed doors, a whole spark society.
- [15:08]
B
Yeah.
- [15:09]
A
You know, when we lock information behind closed doors. And sometimes I experience that when I get certain technology companies or consultants on the show, they're always willing to share exactly how the sausage is made.
- [15:18]
B
Yeah.
- [15:19]
A
Because they're afraid of it getting out there. But are we hurting the industry by doing that?
- [15:24]
B
I was gonna let him talk and you can go on it. But like he doesn't give a. In that. In that, technically, he being Will it. Will it. Yeah, in that. Let me. Let me backtrack to what I mean by that. When staff are onboarded, you sign a confidentiality, agree about it. You're not supposed to share recipes, blah, blah, blah. But, like, people can do whatever they want, right? Like with the Internet, blah, blah, blah. And Will is like, if you steal a recipe, you steal a recipe. I don't care. Like, he has this. Like, I'm not a one trick pony. Right. So if you steal this recipe, I'll just do another recipe.
- [15:53]
A
Right.
- [15:54]
B
So.
- [15:54]
A
And, you know, you might know how to do something, but can you do it consistently? Can you do with the same amount of passion and, you know, life that you do it in? And like, it's not about what you do, but it's about how you do it.
- [16:04]
B
Exactly. Exactly.
- [16:05]
A
Yeah. Like, people are always afraid to share their. Their ideas for concepts with me. Me, I'm like, chill.
- [16:11]
B
Yeah.
- [16:11]
A
It's like, it's. If it's truly your passion, your baby, nobody will be able to do it like you.
- [16:16]
B
Yeah.
- [16:17]
A
So, okay, where does it make sense to start sharing your story? Unless there's anything else you want to get on the table before we go back to the beginning?
- [16:24]
B
I mean, we could be here all day, Right. If you want to go back to the beginning. So I think that we should start with more recent stuff.
- [16:34]
C
Okay.
- [16:35]
B
Right.
- [16:36]
A
So you weren't working restaurants before this, right? Diane, you were a math teacher.
- [16:40]
B
Yeah, middle school math teacher by trade. I. When he started this concept, it was originally called Kuma Burgers. He's like, I don't need you. You can go back to teaching after you have. We. We had a daughter. He's like, you can go back to teaching. And I was like, all right, I'll do that. And you have to learn this is like, maybe a relationship thing, but, like, sometimes your spouse says something and they truly believe it, and you're like, we'll see.
- [17:05]
A
You might have the best intentions, you might have the don't know what you don't know.
- [17:08]
B
Yeah. And he's this way where he can be really cocky, like, I only need four people. We'll be fine. And as his wife and, like, having experience, I'm like, I think I need to ask two more people just in case he needs them. And so, yeah, I wasn't supposed to be a part of it, but as you can see.
- [17:26]
A
Yeah.
- [17:27]
B
Now I am.
- [17:27]
A
Well, here you are.
- [17:28]
B
Here I am.
- [17:28]
C
Yeah.
- [17:29]
A
And so. But you will. You. You knew you wanted to do food from at least 2007, because that's what your LinkedIn says. You're. You were working in the restaurant industry in 2007. You guys met in 2003, correct? College.
- [17:41]
C
Yes.
- [17:41]
B
Yes.
- [17:42]
C
Got it.
- [17:43]
A
And where were you going to school?
- [17:44]
C
Rice University.
- [17:45]
B
Go else.
- [17:46]
A
Nice. And where is that? Is that here in Houston?
- [17:48]
B
That's here in Houston.
- [17:49]
A
Okay, so you met in college.
- [17:51]
B
You.
- [17:51]
A
It wasn't love at first sight, right?
- [17:53]
B
No. You did your homework a little bit.
- [17:56]
A
Just a little.
- [17:56]
C
Yeah.
- [17:57]
A
Whatever you shared out there is what I. What I found. But you were eventually. When. But what. What time did you guys get married? When was that?
- [18:05]
C
2012.
- [18:06]
A
2012.
- [18:06]
B
2012.
- [18:07]
A
Okay, so you were working in the industry since 2007. So let's go back to real then. Like, did you know you wanted to open a restaurant? Was that always the goal for you?
- [18:15]
C
I've always secretly loved foods, and I have in fact fantasized about opening a restaurant from as far back as maybe high school. But, you know, being Asian, it's. A lot of other Asians have probably touched upon this already. It's. It's kind of a scary thing to get into. Unless. Unless it's your family business because it's, you know, definitely a blue collar industry. And so Asian parents aren't super accepting of it because it's like, what'd you go to school for?
- [18:47]
A
You're in the land of opportunity.
- [18:49]
C
Yeah.
- [18:49]
A
That's why you're here. That's why we, we uprooted our life to come and to. I don't make assumptions, but isn't. Is that. I've heard that that's kind of like the whole idea is to go into this place and to make the most of it. Right. This. This country.
- [19:00]
C
Yeah. And also, you know, I think it's. It's very Asian to measure, you know, success, success financially. So it's well known that restaurants fail. They're risky. Even when you're at your best, you don't make a lot of money. So it's an instant failure. There's no win in that situation. And it wasn't until. So I graduated in 2006. And then in 2007, after Diane graduated, we ended up moving to Seattle because she was pursuing a PhD in sociology. And finally, kind of being in a different city from my parents, I felt the courage to apply to some restaurants just to get a feel. And I applied to a bunch of sushi restaurants, just thinking, well, there's no actual cooking. It. It's probably easier. It wasn't it was very demanding but you know it really polished my knife skills which were non existent at that point. And long story short, she stopped her program because she didn't want to pursue it and our parents pressured us to move back home because Houston. Yeah. Why are you in Seattle?
- [20:20]
A
Where are you both? Singaporean?
- [20:22]
B
No, we're Chinese.
- [20:24]
A
So you just like the Singaporean culture?
- [20:26]
C
He I do.
- [20:28]
A
Oh, got it, got it. Yeah, got it. So this episode is made possible by Serboni. You're all in one bookkeeping and financial solution. We're talking about reliable tax preparation, business incorporation, Seamless payroll and compliance reports Strategic CFO services that drive business growth Detailed custom reporting for complete financial clarity Dedicated support for restaurants in multi location businesses. Did I mention bookkeeping late Sir Bony Handle the numbers so you can focus on the vision. Call Sir Bony today at 281-888-2413 to schedule your free 30 minute consultation and discover how siboney can streamline your operations and boost your bottom line. Limited exclusive to Restaurant Unstoppable listeners. Mention this Message and get 20 off your first month of services. This episode is made possible by US Foods and one of the pillars of the US Foods We Help you make it promise is more Tools which provides resources designed to make running your food service operation easier and more efficient. From the all in one food service at Moxie, which goes beyond order placement to help you manage every part of your operation 24. 7 To the digital solutions like checkpoint, business tools and vitals, US Foods delivers smart time saving tools built to simplify your operation and support your success. With Moxie alone you can browse products with AI powered search, manage lists, track deliveries with the AI powered Where's My Truck? By US Foods reorder with just a few clicks and you can do that from your phone, tablet or desktop. Here's a bonus. You can even browse Moxie without signing in. And we can't forget check Business Tools which is essentially a suite of vetted third party solutions that help operators solve critical business challenges such as drive traffic to their location, simplify staffing processes and modernize operations for greater efficiency. To learn more visit www.usfoods.com. expect more looking at your LinkedIn 07 Sushi Chef 09 you were a manager at the Renaissance Hotel G right?
- [22:37]
C
Yeah.
- [22:39]
A
And 2010 you found yourself at Uchiko. Am I saying that correctly?
- [22:44]
C
Yeah.
- [22:45]
A
And 2011 you did your own catering will it Chef Services. Yeah, did that for a year 2012 year line cook at Oxheart Restaurant and is that in Seattle?
- [22:55]
B
That's in Houston.
- [22:56]
A
Houston.
- [22:56]
C
Okay.
- [22:56]
B
It's now T. Rex. Theodore Rex.
- [22:57]
A
Got it, got it, got it. I think I got. I want to say I had them on the show. There's a chance. It was almost seven years ago, though.
- [23:05]
C
Justin. You.
- [23:06]
B
Justin.
- [23:06]
A
Yeah. Sounds really familiar.
- [23:07]
B
So he gets.
- [23:07]
A
I think we would have done it.
- [23:08]
B
Remotely for him all the time. And then I get cast confuses his wife. We're friends.
- [23:12]
A
Oh, we. I think we might have done it remotely. I'll have to double check. I've done almost on 1300 episodes. The wires. I know that they're on my radar, though. I want to get them on the show. They haven't been on the show. 12, 2012 year line cook again. Oxheart. 2013. The. The grumpy pig. You were there for two years. 2017, you were a culinary instructor. And then 2016 is when you opened Burger Chon.
- [23:33]
C
Yes.
- [23:33]
B
Kuma burgers at the beginning.
- [23:35]
A
Cumin burgers at the beginning.
- [23:35]
B
They got a cease and desist.
- [23:36]
C
Got it.
- [23:37]
A
Anything worth going deeper into on that that come up?
- [23:41]
C
Sure. When I was a private chef, I got really lucky. I got to cook for a basketball player, Tracy McGrady. So I did that for half a year and realized I don't like being a private chef. Not because they were bad or anything or mean. They were great. But I don't like cooking with restrictions. And anytime you cook for someone, especially if you're a private chef, it's all about the client, right? It is. Yeah. And I'm too selfish as a chef or a cook. Like, I realize I want to cook my food.
- [24:13]
A
Creative freedom.
- [24:15]
C
And so the best way to do that is to do a restaurant or pop ups and serve your food and find your audience. Like, have them come to you. Yeah.
- [24:23]
A
Yeah. I was, I was curious only a year. I was, I was wondering what went wrong there, but apparently it just wasn't right for you. It wasn't the kind of cooking you wanted to do.
- [24:32]
C
I missed learning. Yeah. You don't learn when you're by yourself. Like, you can do all the reading you want, but you don't really learn unless someone else is yelling at you. Really?
- [24:40]
B
My teacher heart is growing when he said that. Learning.
- [24:45]
A
Well, that's a great segue into your story. And while, while you were kind of building your career in culinary. Well, you were teaching full time.
- [24:54]
B
Teaching.
- [24:54]
A
Also a tutor. Correct?
- [24:55]
B
Tutor. Yeah.
- [24:57]
A
So do you find yourself wishing to get back into teaching ever?
- [25:00]
B
So I get that question a lot and I think about that a lot. So if you go back to My notebook. I literally was trying to list my top. I originally wrote top three personal values. And I was like, I can't do three. So I did five. Right. So I'm the type of person who's constantly, like, evaluating what's my true essence. Right. Because then you can be really intentional in what you're doing. And so originally, when I graduated from college, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, because I went into college just being like, oh, there's all these courses I want to try. Right. And I was just trying to pursue a passion. Then I got to senior year, and people are like, what are you going to do after graduation? I'm like, I don't know.
- [25:40]
A
Senior year of college or high school.
- [25:42]
B
College. So I'm really good at school. So I was like, I'll just do more school and kind of delay thinking. So that brought us to Seattle. And so he touched on that, that I started a PhD program.
- [25:53]
A
Totally. Like, left brain, right brain, opposites here. Like, you're very left brain with your. Your math teacher.
- [25:59]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [26:00]
A
I am not total right brain with sociology. So what was it about sociology that pulled you in?
- [26:06]
B
I like people. I like connections. And I think that that's why I really like doing front of house. Yeah, right. I like connecting with people. I like connecting with my students. I like working with people.
- [26:14]
A
It's rare to have the strengths on both sides like that, you know?
- [26:17]
B
Yeah. But don't put me in the kitchen. Like, I love when people, they call everyone chef, and I'm like, I am not a chef. Don't call me chef. But anyway, to go back to. Sorry, I ramble. So what was the original question?
- [26:29]
A
This is a podcast. You're allowed to ramble.
- [26:30]
B
No.
- [26:31]
A
Just trying to understand your background and what you're doing before this.
- [26:33]
B
Oh, teaching.
- [26:34]
A
And, you know, I asked that question. It was kind of a trick question because.
- [26:36]
C
Yeah.
- [26:37]
A
And I don't want to put words into your mouth, but when you open a restaurant, you are a teacher.
- [26:41]
B
Yeah.
- [26:41]
A
Like, you never stop teaching. Yeah, it is. You're constantly training people. You're. And it's not just, like, skills like how to do math, it's that and how to be a better person, how to show up and how to be a contributing member of society.
- [26:57]
B
Yeah.
- [26:57]
A
And like, all we were talking about it before we hit record, you know, like, you're. You're teaching teenagers and young adults in their early twenties how to be responsible and how to, like, I don't want the words in stream out, though. Like, what's. What's going through your mind as I'm saying this?
- [27:10]
B
No. Like, when I'm teaching. When I was teaching middle school math, I taught math because I like math, not just because I'm Asian, but also because I'm confident enough in my math ability to explain it to people who don't get it the first time, because I think a lot of things are really scary, like math. And if you don't get it the first time, if your teacher isn't confident in the concepts, then they're just gonna be like, you don't understand it. And then people will feel like, I'm not good at math. And it's not that you're not good at math. It's just that you didn't get it that one way. And so I like to break it down to be like, okay, Eric, you're not getting it. Can you explain to me what you're thinking? Like, let me meet you halfway and then bring you the rest of the way instead of saying, you didn't get it. You're a loser. You're bad at math. And so I think that that translates well to restaurants, right, in that I want to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, whether it's my staff, whether it's the customers. Right. Like, I want to meet you where you are. I want to make you feel comfortable. I want to establish some sort of commonality. Oh, you were talking about sociology, like, why I majored in sociology. And it's just like, at the end of the day, it's about people.
- [28:24]
A
It's all about people.
- [28:25]
B
It's all about people.
- [28:25]
C
Yeah.
- [28:26]
A
I don't think we realize. It's like we. We take for granted our dependency on others. Like, we take it for granted. Oxygen.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah.
- [28:33]
A
It's like we need it to survive. We breathe every second of every day, but we don't realize that we need it. It's like relationships are the same way people are, the same way we are. If you take somebody, you go back 15,000 years, you take somebody who's in a tribe, and you throw them out into the wilderness on their own, they might survive a little bit, but not for long. They need that tribe. We need people.
- [28:53]
B
Yeah.
- [28:53]
A
It's a part of our. Our DNA.
- [28:56]
B
Which is funny, though, because we need people. But also, sometimes you hate your team.
- [29:00]
C
Yeah.
- [29:01]
A
Love hate relationship.
- [29:02]
B
It is definitely a love hate relationship. And I think that that's anything. Right? I think the older that we get, we understand that nothing ends up being black or white. It's navigating. The gray.
- [29:15]
A
Right. So let's go back Fast forward to 2007. No, sorry, 17. That is 16.
- [29:23]
C
Right.
- [29:23]
A
Was that when you guys opened?
- [29:24]
B
Yeah, 27. Yeah.
- [29:25]
A
But it wasn't burger chan then.
- [29:27]
B
It was kuma burgers.
- [29:28]
A
Cumin burgers.
- [29:29]
B
Kuma.
- [29:29]
A
Kuma burger.
- [29:30]
B
So kuma means bear in Japanese.
- [29:32]
A
Got it.
- [29:33]
B
Yeah.
- [29:33]
A
And how long, like before you actually opened a kuma burger, before you got it open, like what was that process of conception to open?
- [29:45]
C
It was second gen. So the thing was, that was when I first started wanting to do Southeast Asian food. And I would, you know, look up available places and meet with the landlords and then I'd see other like restaurant operators come in afterwards. And inevitably I kept getting passed up because I had no restaurant ownership experience. And everyone just wants a second location. Something proven. An operator that already has a success track record. Right.
- [30:18]
B
Which is frustrating for first timers is how am I going to get any experience?
- [30:22]
A
Yeah. And now everybody who heard that, I want you to think to yourself, when you put something we're hiring, experience required. It's like, everyone's going to start somewhere.
- [30:34]
B
Everyone's going to start somewhere.
- [30:35]
A
But at the same time, if you're investing your assets into somebody, whether it be your physical, tangible space, that's an asset or money, like you want to gamble on a good horse. Right?
- [30:45]
B
Yeah, we get it.
- [30:46]
A
You got to understand. Right. So it's hard to get started and you're, you're struggling to get that first opportunity. You didn't want to do a burger concept out of the gates, though. That wasn't your original.
- [30:55]
C
No. So we have a lot of industry friends, thankfully, and a couple of them were at Greenway Plaza, which is essentially an office food court. And they said, hey, you know, a lot of these vendors might be wanting to get out. And so one of them, David Bureau of Greenway Coffee, introduced us to Bengal Burgers. And you know, at first I was just like, it was like, you know, you could take over the spot, you could do burgers, make it your own. But I was like, I don't want to do burgers. I don't. So I said no. Like, I went down there, I saw the place. I thought it was kind of a sad little food court. It was also like Christmas time. So it was like the worst time to go down there because everyone's on vacation. I was like, I don't see any potential here. But I'm also impatient. So like a month later I'm like, okay, fuck it, let's try for it.
- [31:51]
A
Why Not.
- [31:51]
C
Yeah. So you know another friend that was down there, John Peterson of Ricebox, he helped, like, introduce us. We had dinner together and we started. We got the ball rolling, and they were selling it. I mean, this is common. They were selling the concept. Right. They're not just letting you get in there for free. They're like, we're not doing much here, but we could stay here forever, Basically, like, we don't have to get out. And so we bought their concept for way too much money for a bunch of shit we didn't want or need. And it's an opportunity cost, so it's a huge opportunity.
- [32:34]
A
What do you think they meant by they don't have to get out? Was it basically like, the rent was low?
- [32:38]
C
It's like, oh, the rent's super low. They could survive forever there.
- [32:40]
A
Right. But why did they want to get out?
- [32:43]
C
To make money like they want to.
- [32:45]
A
They sold the concept to you?
- [32:46]
C
Yeah.
- [32:46]
A
But you didn't use their concept.
- [32:48]
C
And they knew that. Since I'm a chef, they knew I was gonna do something else.
- [32:54]
A
So why? They wanted an exit strategy.
- [32:57]
C
They wanted out, but they could stay forever.
- [32:59]
A
Okay, but you purchased their business with their. Their branding and everything.
- [33:03]
B
Yes. He just wanted to start.
- [33:05]
A
Okay, so you purchased their business, then you buried it.
- [33:08]
C
Yeah.
- [33:08]
B
Yeah.
- [33:09]
A
Okay. Knowing what you know now, would you have done it differently?
- [33:13]
C
No, I'd say never pay for a concept you're not going to use unless everything else about the deal, like the rent or whatever, the location is just too good to pass up. Because otherwise, and I don't like to say this, you could either wait for them to die and then you can get in for free, or you could just go somewhere else.
- [33:36]
A
Right. And I do think your approach to go to a turnkey operation is the way. I think the best way to break into the restaurant industry is to be someone's exit strategy in a turnkey operation. A little overhead, go in, be someone's exit. And I try to echo this as much as possible. Just recently this year, read a book by Corey Sanchez. I don't know if it's Corey Something Sanchez, Main street millionaire. She's actually based in Austin, Texas. Is it Corey Sanchez?
- [34:05]
B
I don't know.
- [34:07]
A
His last name is definitely Sanchez, but it's in that book. She gives a blueprint to basically how to approach an existing business owner and to take over their business with no money down. And you just basically do profit sharing and, like, you pay them back on your profit over time until you. You own the business. And it's a really great approach. And I think that there are so many second generation operations out there that you could do this with, especially in the restaurant industry, because usually the kids don't want to take over the restaurant.
- [34:37]
B
Yeah.
- [34:38]
A
You know, more times than not.
- [34:40]
C
Yeah.
- [34:41]
A
So you just bought the business outright. Did you have money put away?
- [34:45]
C
We borrowed from parents. Yeah.
- [34:47]
A
Do you mind sharing how much you had to come up with in order to buy this business?
- [34:51]
C
60,000.
- [34:52]
A
60,000. That's pretty good. All in. You know, it's low. And how much money do you have to put into it after you purchase it?
- [34:59]
C
Not a whole lot. We DIY to everything. Like, we used a lot free labor right here. We used a lot of wood to transform the space. So I have several high school friends who are just really into woodworking as a hobby. So they helped us build things and change the storefront. And we did it for real cheap.
- [35:20]
A
It looks really. I saw the photos online. It looked really cool. I really liked the vibe you guys were able to create. So all in, maybe $60,000 plus a couple extra thousand to just tweak it. How do your parents think about what did. Or what did your parents think about giving you money? Even though maybe it might have not wanted have been what they wanted for.
- [35:40]
C
You, I think they were okay with it because at least it's a progression of my career. Right. I'm not just continually working for someone else, but I think parents have. I don't know. I'm using Diane's mom as an example, but she's lovely. She likes. It's like constantly kind of hypocritical where she'll love telling, like her friends, like, you know, restaurant owners, they're so hard working. But then she'll turn around and be like, you're the bosses. Like, just give yourself time off. Just do whatever you want. It's like, no, we can't.
- [36:20]
A
Yeah.
- [36:20]
C
And she'll like, give us like, all these, like, tasks to do. Like, well, you have time. You're. You're an owner. It's like, no, we don't have time.
- [36:28]
A
You can't build up to that point. It takes time to remove yourself from, from the business and to build it up. And you're in that process right now partnering with.
- [36:35]
B
With Ryan.
- [36:35]
A
With Ryan. We'll get into that.
- [36:37]
B
Yeah.
- [36:38]
A
So early years, biggest challenges that you had to overcome. And how did you overcome that?
- [36:42]
C
Well, the first one was staffing. Yeah. So I severely underestimated the number of staff I needed. But then also. So this is why Diane really had to step in at the very beginning, the first day of soft opening, the one person we trained for cashier did not show up.
- [37:00]
B
She had a family emergency. Like, and sometimes you're like, family emergency. But I think it was like.
- [37:05]
C
I think it was real, but, like, maybe 10 minutes or half an hour before she was supposed to start working. Like, she was already not. Hadn't shown up, like, a couple hours earlier. And I kept texting. Finally, she's like, we just had a family emergency. I'm sorry, I can't do this job.
- [37:19]
A
Yeah, it's real.
- [37:22]
C
Yeah.
- [37:22]
A
But also, I think you have to realize that nobody's ever going to love your business as much as you.
- [37:26]
B
That's your baby.
- [37:27]
C
Yeah.
- [37:28]
A
No one's gonna show up like you.
- [37:29]
B
It's funny because people are like, do you want to have another kid? And I was like, I already have another kid. Yeah. It's called the restaurant. Plus the other. My staff, plus 10 children. I have enough children.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah. You guys opened in 2016. When did you have your first baby?
- [37:43]
B
2015.
- [37:44]
C
Yeah, 2015.
- [37:46]
B
So that's the funny thing is that when he soft opened, and he was like, I don't need you. Right. So I was still, like, gonna go back to teaching. I had a toddler strapped to my chest.
- [37:58]
A
Twins.
- [37:59]
B
And I literally walked into just the.
- [38:02]
A
Restaurant and the baby. That was the joke. Just for the record, if anybody didn't.
- [38:05]
B
Get that, sorry, I didn't get it. I just laughed to be nice.
- [38:07]
C
Thanks. It's like Arnold schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito. Oh.
- [38:11]
B
Oh. And so I walk in to be like, congrats on your new venture. And he's like, oh, my God, Diane. Like, my cashier. Well, he's like, I don't have a cashier. And I'm like, you don't have a cashier?
- [38:23]
C
Crap.
- [38:24]
B
And so literally think so. I always like to tell people to be very honest. Like, we have a support system. Right. We have two sets of grandparents that live in Houston. We have quite a bit of privilege. And I think that that's something that I'm totally like. I want to be transparent. Right. It's a tough industry. And so do our parents help us out every now and then? Hell, yeah.
- [38:48]
A
Yeah.
- [38:48]
B
Right? And so going back to that, like, I just called them. I was like, hey, can you come to the restaurant for a few hours? I took the baby off my chest, put the baby on their chest, jump behind the corner, behind the counter. I had no idea, like, what I was doing. And I was just like, you just gotta make it happen.
- [39:05]
C
Yeah.
- [39:05]
B
Right.
- [39:06]
A
I think privilege is very special. I think privilege, it carries that word, carries negative air to it, but it shouldn't.
- [39:12]
B
It shouldn't.
- [39:12]
A
What you do with your privilege is what you should be determined or judged by. Like, are you just effing off with your privilege or are you doing something? Are you, like, are you leveraging that to make something for yourself? And, you know, I think what's worse is if you have privilege and you don't use it.
- [39:27]
C
Yeah.
- [39:27]
A
You know, that's a. That's a shame.
- [39:29]
B
And don't get me wrong, our parents aren't like multi millionaires, but, like, they. They came to America for a reason. Right. They had cushy jobs with great retirement. Like, my mom makes more in retirement than I make working. Right.
- [39:43]
C
Same with my dad.
- [39:45]
A
I think the boomer generation can say that.
- [39:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:48]
A
And so hard out there. They have a lot of assets appreciating, making money in the background anyway.
- [39:54]
B
So they're looking at us and they're like, why did you go backwards? Like, look where we went. You were supposed to stand on our shoulders and do more, and you jumped off our shoulders and ran away. And sometimes you have to do that when, like, in your heart, this is what you want to do. Like, we chase challenge. We chase, like, doing something that's worth doing.
- [40:14]
A
You have to love it. You know, I think there's something to be said that in that. So you guys open up. Was it like, busy out of the gates, or did it take time to build up?
- [40:25]
C
So it was busy out the gates. But the first week, the soft opening, for the first three days, I chose to open really late, like, basically at the end of lunch, like maybe from one to three or something. Just trying to really limit the amount of people that would come. And we were so unprepared because. Okay. So I borrowed the idea from another concept, which witch. It's like a choose your own adventure sandwich. Yeah. If you're not familiar, they have paper bags, brown paper bags with the menu on there, and you check what you want. So, like, I want this sandwich with lettuce, tomato, onions, whatever. So I thought, that's a great idea. I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to put it on clipboards. We're going to hang it up on this line, and we're going to zip it down because they work off that menu too, physically.
- [41:11]
A
So the bag that you're getting your food in is also the.
- [41:14]
C
Except we're doing a slip of paper. Got it. And I had mimicked the system without really figuring out how to execute it. So I installed a line, but I didn't have the clips and I had so many bad ideas. So literally the first three days, every day we had a different clip system.
- [41:32]
B
Like, he would push a menu across and it would fall, and we were like, that's someone's order.
- [41:37]
C
Yeah.
- [41:38]
A
$60,000 on a restaurant. Another thousand dollars on clips.
- [41:41]
C
Yeah.
- [41:42]
B
It was like clothesline, Ikea clips, bag clips. And like, it would say bag clip. And we're like, we need to turn it around. Because, like, that there's. We have some. It's a low standard, but it's a standard.
- [41:53]
C
Yeah. The clothesline was so stupid because they're. I threaded it through the hole, but the thought was, if I have enough, we're going to get to a break and we can move all the lines back.
- [42:04]
B
We never had a chance to.
- [42:06]
C
And so we ran out of clotheslines, like, gut.
- [42:08]
A
Well, were you a smash. Do you consider yourself a smash burger?
- [42:12]
C
Yes.
- [42:13]
A
Okay. Were you a smash burger from day one?
- [42:16]
C
We were.
- [42:16]
B
Oh, we were. Sorry.
- [42:17]
C
Yeah. No, it's not. Our OG burger is the 5 ouncer, so it's not your typical smash burger, but we do smash it.
- [42:24]
B
It's smash it. But it's. It wasn't originally paper thin, and it was just because we inherited a flat top. And that made sense.
- [42:31]
C
Yeah.
- [42:32]
A
Well, more volume.
- [42:33]
C
Right. I didn't want to buy preformed patties, so we got the ground beef, but I didn't want to, like, get a tortilla press or anything and press all of them. So we just smashed to order.
- [42:42]
A
And so did you make. Did you, like, weigh out for portion control, like the ounces and advance and just throw it in the girl smash it.
- [42:50]
C
Yeah, got it.
- [42:52]
A
So busy at the gates. What were some of the challenges that you talking about? Just trying to figure out the system for.
- [42:59]
C
Yeah. So this actually ties into a quick advice, and that's if you're going to open a restaurant somewhere, you should work at other restaurants in the same city. Not just to understand the market and what people want to order, but to grow your network, your co workers in those restaurants become your allies.
- [43:18]
A
100%.
- [43:19]
C
Yeah. And I'm not saying, like, you had.
- [43:21]
B
Sorry, you had Aaron Lyons of Dish Society.
- [43:24]
C
Yeah, I worked there, like, for a couple of months before. Before deciding I need to be my own owner. I can't do this. I love Aaron. Aaron and Trent, they're great. But honestly, it was. It was not a good fit. Their kitchen, partly because I don't speak a lot of Spanish and a lot of their workers don't speak a lot of English. Yeah, it was, it was bad.
- [43:48]
B
But, but, but the silver lining was, even though it was a bad fit as a job, he met people.
- [43:54]
A
Right.
- [43:54]
B
That when he opened Kuma Burgers, he's like, crap, I need more people. Who did he reach out to? His.
- [43:59]
C
I didn't. They came to support.
- [44:02]
B
Oh, my God, I forgot. So we were literally in line and they see the panic in the eyes and they're like.
- [44:09]
C
And two co workers from Dish Society came to support Buy Food and they saw how bad we were drowning.
- [44:16]
B
Yeah.
- [44:16]
C
And they like, came behind the line like, hey, do you need help? It's like, yes.
- [44:21]
B
Yeah. And now when we see friends doing events and if we see like, they're in the shit, like we've been in the ship before, we're like, do you need help?
- [44:29]
C
Yeah.
- [44:30]
B
Like, we're here to support. But if you need hands, I give you hands.
- [44:33]
A
I used to spend more time with this podcast talking about the come up. And I think that that is a key part of a pattern in successful operators is that they had deep roots in that community of restaurant professionals because they went and they work for the best in that community and they built this army behind them. And then when you go to open your own place, you're not just putting out, like, hey, come work for me, but you're recruiting.
- [44:58]
B
Yeah.
- [44:58]
A
The people, your closest allies. The people. And, or making them your business partner. Like, if you were a badass chef and you got close with the front of house general manager, that's a match made in heaven right there, you know, and then it's those, those relationships that you, that become your future business partners. Or at least you pull your, your, your foundational staff with you to have that foundation.
- [45:21]
C
It does lead to drama. If you're poaching.
- [45:25]
A
Yeah. You got to, you got to find that. That too. But at the same time, if you're not giving the opportunity to your people, they're going to find it somewhere else.
- [45:34]
B
Right.
- [45:34]
A
So there's also that balance too. Are you just, are you just creating jobs? Are you creating careers and opportunity?
- [45:39]
C
Yeah.
- [45:40]
A
So, like, that makes it so restaurant owners know that if they're not growing and opening more locations and investing in their staff and saying, what's your vision? What do you want to do? Well, we're successful. We can invest in you. If you're not investing in that talent, that talent will find it someplace else.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah.
- [45:57]
C
Yeah.
- [45:58]
A
So there is a bounce there.
- [45:59]
B
Yeah. And I definitely Think that bringing Ryan on board and partnering with him, I think that he. Because we were just so in it. Right. That we knew that there are certain things that you should do to help your staff grow, but we just didn't have the bandwidth to really think about it. And I think that with partnering with Ryan allowed us to step away, to really kind of do the things we knew we should do both personally and professionally, but just didn't have the time.
- [46:27]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So you guys are busy out of the gates. You're getting. Do your friends stick around a little bit, or do they kind of just help you get going?
- [46:35]
C
Yeah. So I'll. I guess I'll give a quick shout out. So it was Nick Salceda and Mike Lee, and they were so clutch because we were. We were, like, trying to hire people, but it was hard to get people in. And literally for the next month, they showed up on all their off days to pitch in. Wow. Which was just so clutch because we were. We were drowning everything.
- [46:56]
A
It takes a tribe.
- [46:56]
C
Yeah.
- [46:58]
A
I want to say, too, this pattern of going further together works with restaurant owners. It's the restaurant owners that choose to not compete against each other, but to collaborate and work with each other and to know your lane and to find other owners who are strong, where you're weak, and say, well, let's combine for. I think you guys are doing that today.
- [47:16]
B
Yeah.
- [47:16]
A
With. With Ryan Stewart, who wasn't able to join us, but, I mean, we're going to get into that. That partnership. I'm hoping to get him later in the week or on a future trip, but sorry, keep going with that train of thought that you were saying before, like the. The shout out to these folks.
- [47:30]
B
Oh, wait. And Jose is going to get butt hurt if you don't mention him. So.
- [47:33]
C
Oh, he's coming up.
- [47:34]
B
Okay.
- [47:35]
A
We haven't gotten there yet.
- [47:37]
C
So Jose is. Was the other kitchen manager at Dish Society, and, you know, I didn't poach him, but, like, a few months after we opened, he came by to support, and he was like, hey, are you hiring? Because either he already left or he was going to leave. I said, yeah, sure, we could take you. And he came on board, and he was really great. Lots of experience, a workhorse. But he had this problem where he kept showing up late all the time. It's like, jose, why are you late? Why are you late? And it just became this thing. It became really problematic. And I remember. And so there was a day where we were very short staffed. And so just to give you an idea, of our structure for back of house at least, obviously. We have a dishwasher. We have someone on fry station. We have one flat top cook. And then we have two burger builders.
- [48:36]
A
Five people online.
- [48:37]
C
Yeah. And then because breakfast started taking off, we have six person who focuses on making breakfast. We had one day where the breakfast cook and my other burger builder, I was on burger builder. Both called out in advance. They had reasons. One, I think had to go to their daughter's thing at school and the other had a doctor's appointment. Okay, so we're two down. Whatever, you know, me and Jose, we can handle it. Jose will cook breakfast. I'll prep for the. For lunch. The day starts. Jose didn't show up. He shows up like two hours later. I'm like, slam. Breakfast was like incredibly busy. As every time you're short staffed, of course, everyone just shows up.
- [49:25]
B
Right.
- [49:26]
A
Murphy's Law.
- [49:27]
C
Yeah. And I think up to that point, every time that someone's been really late, I'm just like, thank God you're here. We'll talk about this later. Get the fuck on the line. Like, get to work. But I felt like this was creating such a negative environment where everyone's just like, oh, it's okay if we're late.
- [49:50]
A
Well, the thing is, that is the standard. What happens every day is your standard.
- [49:54]
C
Yeah.
- [49:54]
A
That's the reality of it. It's not what you say, it's what you do.
- [49:58]
C
And I finally just had to be like, Jose. He's like, sorry, chef. And I'm like, why are you two hours late? Overslept his alarm. Like, well, Jose, if you stay here, everyone's gonna think this is okay and he really needs to make money. And so I did the only thing that could really punish him, which is I sent him home. I'm like, sorry, dude. Like, I just can't do this today. Like, you just gotta go. We'll talk tomorrow. And doing it despite knowing this is gonna actually hurt me more than it's gonna hurt you. Cause I am so fucking under staff today. Thankfully, the burger builder who had a doctor's appointment was able to come in after his doctor's appointment, but we still didn't have our breakfast cook. So I'm stuck doing breakfast. He shows up. We like, hurriedly, like, prep for lunch. I have to do two positions at lunch. I have to be flat top and burger builder. Two ticket times were stupid long. They were like half an hour, maybe.
- [51:00]
A
Even longer for a smash burger. Which the whole idea that the appeal is that it's fast.
- [51:03]
B
Yeah, yeah. So as front of house. I did not approve of this decision, but I also knew, as his wife, like, he needed to make this decision.
- [51:10]
C
Right? And, you know, so we sat down with him. The next day. He showed up on time. We. We sat down with him maybe after service, and we were like, jose, we got to change this pattern, or else you can't. You can't stay here. We bought him an alarm clock from Amazon.
- [51:28]
B
It's the one where it's like, you put a sensor under the bed and it shakes the bed. I was like, it runs away.
- [51:33]
A
It's on wheels.
- [51:34]
B
I was like, heavy duty. No more excuses.
- [51:39]
C
And, you know, I think it drove home the point. He. He's been with us for nine years. He became my kitchen manager when we opened up here. I'm not sure I'd have to check with Ryan, but I want to say he's the general manager now, so sometimes you. You have to correct the mistakes your workers are doing. You have to drive home the point that it's serious, that, you know, they have to take it seriously. But if you invest in them and if you are willing to continue to take the risk on them, sometimes they become, like, a really great ally down the line.
- [52:16]
B
It's like tough love, like, in the classroom. I started the year actually quite strict, right? And by the end, it's like, okay, like, if you're doing well in my class, then I'm actually a nice person.
- [52:28]
A
It was always the teachers I hated the most in the beginning of the semester that I ended up liking the most.
- [52:32]
B
Because you hate doing, like, everybody hates doing work. Everybody hates being told what to do. But it's that tough love of, like, I know that you're gonna appreciate this down the line. And so that tough love translates from the classroom to the restaurant to everywhere.
- [52:47]
A
Right. And I like the echo as much as possible. You know, the mission statement is to inspire, empower, and transform the industry, and we transform the industry by transforming people. And I think that is your job as an owner, because you're not just this transactional. People don't work for you. You work for them. They come to work, and you put everything you can into creating opportunity for that person, giving them skills, giving them disability or ability, not disabilities. Hopefully you're not smacking them around.
- [53:14]
B
We're not talking about that.
- [53:15]
A
Yeah, but, like, that we are in the like, and that is business. I think it's weird. Like, we look at, like, we created, like, the school system out of trying to create employees, and we want people to come to us fully Developed and fully built, you know, like, ready for use, out of the box. But the truth is, those people come to us. It is our job to give them those skills, to build them up to. To. To. Maybe they didn't have the same privilege we had.
- [53:41]
B
Right.
- [53:41]
A
The upcoming. The upbringing. And, you know, we have to give them those disciplines and those habits, and that's how we make the world a better place. That's how we build up communities.
- [53:51]
B
Yeah. It's also really special. Like, we had one staff member. I won't say her name. And she'd never had fish, like, fried fish. And so we had a panko breaded. Well, cod or was it caught at the time? Now it's mahi mahi. And she's like, I don't want to eat it. I don't like fish. And I'm like, but you've never had fish. She's like, I don't want it. And I'm like, just take that one. No, thank you. Bite. Like, I do that to my child.
- [54:13]
C
Like, one.
- [54:14]
B
No, thank you. Bite. And she tried it, and she was like, this is really good. And so, like, those small moments.
- [54:21]
A
What was the quote you shared earlier today?
- [54:23]
B
You want me to read the whole thing?
- [54:24]
A
Just the. Or the part that applies.
- [54:30]
B
Hold on. Oh. It takes a lot of courage to release the familiar and seemingly secure to embrace the new. So she tried something new.
- [54:38]
A
You never know until, you know.
- [54:39]
B
Yeah. Or we, like, bring food from Chinatown.
- [54:42]
A
Yeah.
- [54:43]
B
For our staff to be like, we really like this food. We would like you to try it. And, you know, that's not part of our job description as restaurateurs. Right. There's no list. It's just this is how I would want to be treated. So.
- [54:57]
A
So what was the biggest growth in that first three, four years? Because you guys were open 2016 and you closed in 2020.
- [55:07]
B
Covid.
- [55:07]
A
So what was the growth? What was the evolution during that time? Or a biggest challenge that you overcame that made you stronger?
- [55:14]
C
So we actually also moved within the same food court. Maybe it's something you didn't know, but we were in, like, that original spot, which was pretty gross and, like, breaking down. And they wanted to refresh the whole food court. And so thankfully, they broke down another spot, made it brand new for us, asked us what we needed, and then moved us to that new space.
- [55:38]
B
And the landlord paid for everything.
- [55:39]
C
Everything.
- [55:40]
B
Yeah. So we're like, sweet.
- [55:41]
C
Nice.
- [55:42]
A
That's always nice.
- [55:43]
B
We'll move. Great.
- [55:45]
A
So you made that move. Was there a peak of, like, a peak time of operation before moving to your new spot. Because you guys were close for almost two years. Right. You didn't find this location until 2022.
- [55:57]
B
We signed this lease 2019. 2019.
- [56:00]
A
But we all know what happened.
- [56:02]
B
Yeah.
- [56:02]
C
Right.
- [56:02]
A
So you never got open.
- [56:04]
C
Yeah.
- [56:05]
A
You chose to wait to reopen until 2022 or that was when you could reopen.
- [56:10]
C
There were just a lot of delays.
- [56:11]
A
Getting some side eye right now.
- [56:13]
C
There were a lot of delays early on. Some balls were dropped and just everything was delayed, you know, partly due to Covid, but just. It was just a crazy time. And so things did take significantly longer than everyone thought it would.
- [56:29]
B
Yeah. I mean, at some point during COVID we were like, maybe we should shut all. Like, maybe we should not do this anymore. Yeah, yeah.
- [56:38]
A
Are we skipping over anything in the first four years before moving to the. The 2000s?
- [56:43]
C
No. I mean, things just kind of grew steadily. We added breakfast service, which.
- [56:47]
A
Are you still doing breakfast today?
- [56:48]
C
No.
- [56:49]
B
Yes and no. But mostly no. There's like a secret breakfast menu.
- [56:52]
A
Well, it makes sense in that. That complex because it was like an office. So there are people that wanted breakfast sandwiches.
- [56:57]
C
Yeah. And it was significant. Like it was maybe a third of revenue.
- [57:00]
A
I mean, there's. I think there's a lot of opportunity in the world of breakfast sandwiches.
- [57:04]
C
There's the.
- [57:05]
A
It's an under served market.
- [57:07]
B
Yeah. And we did like build your own omelets. It was, it was cool.
- [57:11]
A
Nice. So breakfast and lunch. You didn't do dinner. Toast for dinner. Now, ultimately, what made you want to move out of that space?
- [57:19]
C
We. I always think, are we building towards a retirement? And the answer has. Is always no. It's just hard to build towards a retirement with restaurants. And so the constant thought is, how do we level up? How do we get to that next stage? And so a second location was at the time my answer. Like, maybe we just need to grow.
- [57:45]
B
That one was supposed to stay open and then we were going to open like a flagship, but due to Covid, we closed that original location. It just didn't make sense anymore. Because people were working from home.
- [57:55]
A
Exactly.
- [57:56]
B
Yeah.
- [57:56]
C
Yeah.
- [57:56]
A
So you close that one, you open the new one. Didn't get open until 2022. When you opened the new location, did you do it differently, more intentionally in a way for it to be better, like taking the lessons from the first one to make 2.0 better.
- [58:08]
B
We tried.
- [58:09]
C
Tried. But honestly, staffing was even harder at the second.
- [58:15]
B
Staffing is always going to be.
- [58:17]
A
Yeah, yeah, it was weird. Like there was a great exodus or what do they call the great resignation?
- [58:22]
B
Quiet quitting.
- [58:22]
A
Quiet quitting. All of a sudden, like, oh, why would I go get a job? Or I can get free, you know, government money. Like, sign me up for that. And also, I think the gig economy. We really took off post pandemic.
- [58:34]
B
Yeah.
- [58:34]
A
More and more people that were using things like, you know, I think Uber Eats took off already. People were doing Uber. Then there was Uber Eats, and then there was that grocery shopping app and, like, Instacart. Yeah. And it's work on your own Cal. Your own schedule. Like, it's hard to compete with that.
- [58:53]
C
Yeah.
- [58:53]
A
Yeah.
- [58:55]
C
So bigger storefront, bigger footprint. We needed more staff. It was even harder to get staff. The opening was hard. And, you know, wanted to make sure we had enough staff. And we were, like, a little unprepared our first month open. So ticket times were really long. We just. We weren't. You're never ready. Same with having a kid. Right. You get as ready as you can, but you're never actually ready. And we made so many mistakes. But then February came, and we were slow. And this happens with restaurants everywhere.
- [59:31]
A
But February 2022.
- [59:32]
C
Yeah.
- [59:33]
A
3.
- [59:33]
C
The following February, because you opened the same year. So we're two months in. And this is true to all restaurants, but I think particularly in Houston, every place that grand opens, line out the door. Bonkers. Just crazy. So we don't go to any grand openings unless there's a real reason to, because we don't like to, like, wait in line. And we know that they're, like, barely getting.
- [59:57]
A
Yeah. Let them dial it in first.
- [59:59]
C
Yeah. But then the problem is no one goes the next month and the month after. Like, usually any of the hotspots that are opening now, if we go in the second month or third month, we don't have to wait. It's easy. Yeah. The same thing happened to us. And so February revenue was just scary low.
- [60:18]
B
Yeah.
- [60:19]
C
Like, you're. You were asking of prime costs. Our labor in February was a hundred percent of revenue. Wow.
- [60:29]
A
So you're losing money with prime, with your cost of goods was. I was going out the door.
- [60:36]
C
You know, we bank with bank of America, and, you know, they have their, like, little AI widget thing that pops up that tells you something. Like, you know, like, right now it's saying, like, good job. On average, you're saving, you know, a thousand more than you're spending or some. Something like that. Those early days, literally, it popped up and it said.
- [60:58]
A
Pull up.
- [60:58]
C
Yeah. You're spending $14,000 more per month. Than you're earning.
- [61:05]
B
And what's funny is, outwardly, people are like, you're killing it. And I'm like, no, it is killing us.
- [61:12]
C
Yeah.
- [61:13]
A
And that's what makes me think of my parents, because I grew up in the restaurant industry that lines out the door every weekend. This is back in the mid-80s, in the early two 19 or 1990s. Like, you don't. You can't go to restaurantowner.com and get blueprints and, like, listen to a podcast and learn about what. What it takes. Like, you just. You could literally have lines at the door and you're not making money.
- [61:32]
B
Yeah.
- [61:33]
A
And people are like, oh, you guys must be killing it. It's just like, my parents struggle paying the mortgage this month. Like, I have memories of my mom crying at the dinner table, trying to figure out how she's gonna make it all work.
- [61:42]
B
Yeah.
- [61:42]
A
You know, taking three kids to the grocery store, one grocery wagon full of food for the house, the other one full of food for the restaurant.
- [61:50]
B
Yeah.
- [61:50]
A
You know, like, it was hard.
- [61:51]
C
Yeah.
- [61:53]
A
Anyway, well, it's not my story too. Sorry.
- [61:55]
B
And going back to my original quotation, it's like, the reason why we kind of are doing something new. And because I had my health stuff, it's like, sometimes you do need to take a step back and, like, reevaluate what's worth doing. And I was like, I'm looking at my daughter.
- [62:10]
A
Gonna get emotional.
- [62:12]
B
Fucking hate this. And I'm like, I'm making all these people happy. And the one person that matters is like, when can we go home? So that's why we didn't do dinner for the longest. But it's like, it's not good for the restaurant. What's good for the restaurant is not good for your family.
- [62:32]
A
Right. And I'm happy you're going there because, you know, I talk to a lot of. I wonder. Sometimes I look at some of these people who are crazy successful from the outside looking in.
- [62:41]
B
Yeah.
- [62:41]
A
You know, and the. The people that the. You'll call the. The greatest of lists, like, hold up and honor. And you start looking at what these people have to do to be quote, unquote successful. And you're like, we don't want to make examples of these people. They're fucking psycho.
- [63:01]
B
Yeah.
- [63:02]
A
Like, they are mentally broken. They are ego. Not all of them. I don't make blanketed statements. They're ego driven.
- [63:08]
B
Yeah.
- [63:09]
A
Or they're just have some kind of OCD or some kind of mental disorder. And, like, you know, your. Your Michelins of the world, your food and wine magazines, your James Beards, like these. These entities focus on the just lifting up and making, like, this is what you should aspire to. And it's like, is it?
- [63:28]
B
Yeah.
- [63:29]
A
Is it like what?
- [63:31]
C
Like, because it can be unhealthy at.
- [63:32]
A
That level, 100% to be the best. So you have to sacrifice a lot. And not to, like, shift pace on what you were saying. But, like, I think there's a correlation there of, like, what are you willing to sacrifice to gain the respect from, you know, the consumer and your peers?
- [63:52]
B
Yeah.
- [63:52]
A
At the end of the day, is that what matters? Or is the closest relationship your children, your family? Yeah, that matters.
- [63:58]
B
And I think stepping back to reevaluate and see what matters, because I think what matters in your 20s changes from what matters in your 30s and what matters in your 40s. And I think that allowing yourself to evolve and say, okay, I thought one way in this decade, I'm allowed to change. Right. Like, he doesn't have to be a burger guy for life. I don't have to be a middle school teacher for life. Like, you can change if you want to. Right. Like, I'm a recovering workaholic, slash still a workaholic. But, like, you can change. And part of it is having people hold you accountable, having podcasters hold you accountable. Like, you said that you were going to step back to focus on your daughter. So don't, like, get all healthy again and then go back to your old self.
- [64:42]
A
Right, Right.
- [64:43]
B
Like, be intentional.
- [64:45]
C
Yeah.
- [64:46]
A
So this episode is made possible by me is a digital recipe platform that helps you stay creative, build profitable menus, and nail food execution at scale. Consistency builds trust with your guest and your staff. No more messy spreadsheets or scattered systems. Whether they want to admit it or not, your team loves systems because systems equals peace of mind, because we all want to what the job done right looks like. And Mies paints the picture of perfection and is the one source of truth for your entire team. By locking in recipes and training before service starts, me makes sure every dish is consistent, every team member is aligned, and every location runs like clockwork. So when the report rolls in after the sale, they tell the story you're after. Higher profits, better margins, and repeat guests. It's time to take control of your profitability. Learn more at www.getmes.com Unstoppable. That's G E T M E E Z.com Unstoppable. Everyone thinks marketing is the answer to increasing profitability in your restaurant. But the reality, nothing drives profit more than rock solid operations. And that is precisely why I partnered with the best in the biz, Restaurant Systems Pro. It's time to plan for the new year now. Beginning January 5th, Restaurant Systems Pro will be launching its 30 day Restaurant Mastery Program. You'll get in depth, step by step proven systems to get the money you deserve and create the freedom you want in your life. Here are the systems that they'll be covering. Scheduling, menu engineering, purchasing, inventory, AI, invoice processing, bookkeeping, restaurant budgeting, digital checklists, recipe costing and POS integrations. Plus a library of video tutorials and recordings, operational playbooks, flowcharts, swipe files, checklists and a personalized action plan. This makes it 100% ready to be delegated. This 30 day restaurant mastery program is valued at nearly $4,000. But Restaurant Unstoppable listeners can get it for only $97 by going to go.restantassistanspro. net profits. Or you could sign up for Restaurant Unstoppable Community and get access to this training absolutely free as part of your membership. Plus it repeats every month, so you get access in perpetuity. Not to mention you get access to everything that we offer in Restaurant Unstoppable Community like the live events, the recordings of those live events. Ad free Restaurant Unstoppable podcast, the unstoppable custom AI agent in more exclusive deals with strategic Restaurant Stoppable Partners. Head over to Restaurant Unstoppable.com live for this exclusive Restaurant Systems Pro deal. You recognize that you're at this place where you weren't finding that balance and you had to find that balance. When did that come into picture?
- [67:34]
C
Well, let's first talk about surviving the restaurant, right?
- [67:37]
A
The first couple of years relocating, you.
- [67:41]
C
Asked about the turning point and you know, or like the growth spurt of the first location, but really there wasn't a huge one. It was just like this really steady ramp up. We had all this built in clientele. But in the new location where we currently are, there was a singular moment that really helped us survive. And without it, we just, we would have closed. So by summertime we were struggling bad. It was like a constant thought of like, do we try to break the lease and cut our losses because the losses are just too severe. And we got this email that we weren't sure if it was real.
- [68:22]
B
It looked like spam.
- [68:22]
C
You never know these days. But it asked us to be on Good Morning America.
- [68:27]
A
Oh wow.
- [68:28]
C
To go up in this burger competition and after a little, you know, googling, like, is this legit you know, we think it was. So we replied. We're like, yes, we'd be extremely interested. Like, please save us. And so somehow we managed to get on the show. I don't know if you watched any of that happen, but we went up against Trailburgers on Good Morning America, you know, which is Bunbies, the rapper's restaurant.
- [68:58]
A
Okay.
- [69:00]
C
And, you know, it was, like, a big deal. Like, there was even, like, whoever wins this segment goes to New York next Friday. You know, they were telling us the travel plans and what they would cover, what we would cover. And, you know, it all seemed. It just felt so real. Like, so the day comes, we got to get up super early. We got up at, like, three in the morning because it's taped live. We show up at St. Arnold's Brewing, got to meet Bun B. Which is awesome. Met his. The chef that they have for their team, and just getting ready. And you're allowed to, like, have fans come out to support you. And our fans were just amazing. They created all these, like, unique posters and signs and, like, a big poster of my head.
- [69:49]
A
Good Morning America. That's in New York, right?
- [69:51]
B
That's in New York.
- [69:51]
A
You had fans travel to New York?
- [69:54]
B
No, they taped here in Houston.
- [69:55]
C
Oh.
- [69:56]
B
It was live from Houston. And then, like. Yeah, that would have been cool.
- [69:59]
A
I was gonna say.
- [70:00]
C
Damn. And so, like, if you ever watched a segment, if they show the audience, like, Trilberger's fans, they all had, like, the same sign. Yeah. Like, just mass produced. Ours had everything. Everyone made their own. It was, like, so beautiful. That was actually, I think, my favorite part of it. And so I make the burgers. It's go time. We go to judging, we lose. We were swept. All three chose troll burgers. It was kind of embarrassing, but, you know, on camera, you just have to, like, accept it and be graceful and, you know, definitely grateful for the opportunity. Didn't think too much of it. We head back to the restaurant. You know, our team's already there prepping. We get there at around 9am Prep, prep, prep. It's business as usual, right. About half an hour before opening, this line starts forming outside of our door, and we're like, oh. Oh, it's about to go down. Like, what. What the. Is this?
- [71:04]
B
Like, like, don't y' all have work?
- [71:06]
A
Yeah.
- [71:07]
B
And this just aired.
- [71:09]
A
Well, I mean, even. Any. Any media is good media, right? Or any press.
- [71:13]
C
Yeah, right. And so doors open, and the line just does not die down. It's like, our first, like, holy shit day where the line went Till we closed, I think we were like cooking 30, 40 minutes after closing because there were just so many people.
- [71:30]
B
We might have had to like, ball me to order because we're like, it's.
- [71:34]
C
Blowing away your car.
- [71:35]
B
We're running out. We're like running out of lettuce, running out of bread.
- [71:38]
C
We're running out of everything.
- [71:41]
A
And how long did this continue?
- [71:43]
B
A while.
- [71:44]
C
Months.
- [71:45]
A
Yeah.
- [71:45]
C
Because thankfully, Troll Burgers wasn't open.
- [71:50]
B
They were a pop up.
- [71:51]
C
Yeah, they were a pop up. So everyone was coming here like, so, like, where can I get trailburgers? It's like, well, they're not open, but we are. So we'd love if you give it. Gave us a try. Yeah. And they did.
- [72:04]
A
Is Trolls Burger open now?
- [72:05]
C
They are, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they have two locations, actually.
- [72:10]
A
So 2022, you share your story. Up to mid summer, 2022, you. You get featured on Good Morning America. Things start to pick up your lines at the door, you're getting additional accolades. I mean, is this. You got like the food culture Map or whatever too? Was that before or after? This is earlier. Right. Or maybe you were getting recognized before 2020 and then you got it recognized again after.
- [72:33]
C
Yeah, we had recognition from both Culture Map and Houston Chronicle and our old spot too.
- [72:39]
A
Yeah. And even with all that recognition, it was. Is it because you had like, almost three years off in between where you kind of lost the regulars? Getting them back was hard.
- [72:47]
C
Well, the regulars are hard because a lot of them are office workers. And if they're working from home, they're not even in the area.
- [72:53]
A
How far is your original location from where we are currently?
- [72:56]
C
Currently about 10 minutes away. Okay.
- [72:59]
A
But the thing is, a city that's in traffic, that could be.
- [73:02]
B
But the thing is, the, the, the work culture changed. So a lot of them, you know, instead of working five days a week, they're now hybrid.
- [73:09]
A
Right.
- [73:10]
B
And so they're spread across the country. Yeah. Or hello, the economy. Right. So it's like they were regulars, but now they're like, look, I gotta cut back. And I'm like, I get it.
- [73:21]
C
I mean, we essentially had to find our new customers.
- [73:24]
B
Yeah.
- [73:25]
C
And, you know, we go out to eat a lot. Just. I've always loved restaurants. It's always been a passion of mine. And I think one of the coolest things when we look out into our dining room is the diversity of people that come in. Yeah. Like, that's truly speaks to the diversity of Houston, but just also the broad appeal we have. Right. Like, we're trying to create something for everyone.
- [73:48]
A
Right.
- [73:49]
C
And I know that's not. Not actually possible. Right. If you try to appeal to everyone, you appeal to no one.
- [73:54]
A
I think burger is a very approachable thing. I'm thinking about burgers. I've been thinking about burgers for like the past hour. Salivating over here. I can't wait to get one of these things. So at what point. Because you're in this transition now.
- [74:06]
C
Right.
- [74:07]
A
In 2025, you announced. In April of 2025, you announced that you're partnering with Silver Lining Hospitality. Ryan Stewart was here. Here. He wasn't able to. To sit with us to share his side of the story, but that's, I think right about now is when we would be transitioning into that. That side of the story. So how long was this conversation bubbling up before you actually reached out? Like, how long were you looking for somebody until you found somebody?
- [74:31]
C
Do you want to answer or do you want me to answer?
- [74:33]
B
You can answer it because I'm gonna cry.
- [74:35]
C
Oh, okay. It makes for good.
- [74:38]
A
It's great content.
- [74:39]
C
So towards the end the of. Of last year, like around September, October, there was a period where I was just burnt out. Just like, I'm so over this. I don't want to do this anymore. I want to cook other foods. I want to. I don't want to be pigeonholed.
- [74:59]
A
Yeah. This was 2024. You start having this feeling or before.
- [75:02]
C
Oh, before years. Yeah. Like maybe since year one, it's just me and that. Well, so real quick, like borrowed goods. We don't. We haven't done a lot of repeats. Like, the menu has been so diverse each time. Like, I've done a sit down, three course lunch. I've done chirashi bowls, I've done hot dogs. I've done freaking everything.
- [75:24]
B
Like, he's making up for less time.
- [75:26]
C
Yeah, yeah. Like, people are always like, oh, I wish you'd do that again. I'm like, no, probably not. Yeah.
- [75:32]
A
I mean, do you worry that there's a market for that?
- [75:35]
C
There is. They show up. Yeah.
- [75:37]
A
That's good for sure.
- [75:38]
C
I think you build up the reputation and if they trust you as a chef, they want to see what you're gonna make.
- [75:44]
A
It's in a journey, it's an experience.
- [75:45]
B
And it goes back to the relationships you were talking about. Like, they will follow you.
- [75:49]
A
I think in markets like Houston, you can do that because there's a market for everybody. You know, there's the person that wants their tried and true burger. They know it's going to come out the same way every time. It's going to be delicious. And then there's that market that they just want and be like, I can't wait to see what. What's going to happen. We have no clue. But that. That excitement, that of not knowing but you know what's gonna be good is. That's fun.
- [76:08]
C
Yeah.
- [76:08]
A
That's an experience.
- [76:09]
B
Yeah.
- [76:09]
C
Yeah. And so, okay, end of last year, I think for a time, for a while, Diane had been trying to see if, you know, by that point, we had a lot of staff who've been with us for a long time. It's like, how do I minimize the amount of time that will. It has to be in the kitchen so he can do other stuff because.
- [76:29]
B
The anger trickles to the house. He brings it home.
- [76:36]
A
So when. What first moves did you start making to move yourself away from Burger Chan? Am I saying it right?
- [76:47]
B
Yep, you're good. You're good.
- [76:49]
A
To doing bar all. Why am I struggling? All things.
- [76:55]
B
Borrowing up bar goods.
- [76:56]
C
Borrow is good.
- [76:57]
A
Thank you. Bar goods. Like, when did that actually start to happen? What did you have to do to start making that happen?
- [77:00]
B
Oh, that was a big jump, actually, from. From one to the other. But I think that in 2024, that was kind of a key time where we're like, I think we've done everything that we thought we could do to make this work. And I. Maybe we've hit like a ceiling for us personally.
- [77:24]
C
Well, okay. Also, so I kept wanting to expand operations to see if we could grow our revenue financially to become seemingly more successful. Right. But Diane holds the family time as sacred and doesn't believe that if we open for dinner, we can truly step away. She believes it was that control.
- [77:48]
B
I was a control freak. Like, if I'm not there, it's going to go to shit.
- [77:52]
A
Yeah, Well, I think, yeah. What you're experiencing is what a lot of people. Sorry. Keep going, though. I feel like my cutting short will.
- [77:57]
C
No, not at all. But we could never come to terms on that point of me wanting to grow and her wanting to not grow. It's like, well, then this is kind of pointless because we're never going to make enough money to retire. Keeps going back to, like, think of the future. And so finally, it's like, if she can't write me off the schedule completely because inevitably I'm not scheduled on five days, but I come in three of those days because someone didn't show up. You know, the usual stuff is like, what's the point? I'm still stuck here. Yeah. In some ways, it was actually worse. I'd, like, plan a day of something, and then. You can't. And I'd cancel it.
- [78:32]
A
Yeah.
- [78:32]
C
You know, I'd want to meet a friend up finally. I can't because I have to go to the restaurant. So finally we're like, okay, well, maybe it's time. We'll either sell the restaurant or close for good.
- [78:47]
B
Shut it down.
- [78:50]
C
But, you know, my preference was selling. A, I would love Burger Chan to live on forever and grow. And B, you know, the hope is we didn't just lose all of our costs like we would if we just closed. So we put feelers out. We met with several industry people who are extremely well connected. And finally we met with Thomas Wen, who is a realtor, a commercial realtor. He used to be part of a restaurant here in town, Pelle. Pelle. It's like South African concept.
- [79:34]
B
And Ryan.
- [79:34]
A
South African, I think Tom Wynn. I think that sounds really.
- [79:37]
B
Thomas Wynn is very well connected.
- [79:39]
C
Very.
- [79:41]
B
Shout out to Thomas Wynn.
- [79:42]
A
I might have had him on the show, but keep going. I know that Wynn is a very common name.
- [79:45]
B
Yeah.
- [79:46]
A
And so it's like Smith for Koreans, isn't it? Is it Korean?
- [79:49]
B
Win is Vietnamese.
- [79:50]
A
Thank you.
- [79:51]
B
That's okay. Kim. And park is Korean.
- [79:53]
C
Yeah.
- [79:53]
A
Yeah. Thank you.
- [79:54]
C
So, yeah, we. We met with a lot of people finally. When we met with him, he's like, you know, I got two people in mind, and one of them was Ryan, who he knows through Pelle Pelly. And then the other person initially was interested but lost interest. Like, we just never even met him. He was just like, hey, sorry, I'm not interested. And so we met with ryan back in October 2024, and was very exciting. Like, okay, this could work. They did their valuation based on all of our numbers. You know, he was like, hey, so he has a chain of things back in South Africa. He is like a serial restaurateur and entrepreneur, which we're not. We just aren't.
- [80:43]
B
I like to joke. We're like the worst business people.
- [80:45]
C
Like, super.
- [80:46]
B
We care too much.
- [80:47]
C
Reluctant entrepreneurs.
- [80:49]
A
Yeah.
- [80:49]
B
If I could give. Give away these burgers, I would.
- [80:52]
A
Well, I was curious, too. We never really got into it. I always kind of made the assumption that you are the creative because you as the chef, the creative, the food. And then you came in as a math teacher. I'm like, she's on the books.
- [81:03]
B
Yes and no. People assume that because I love math, I love accounting and taxes. I fucking hate.
- [81:09]
A
This is why you shouldn't make it. That you shouldn't make assumptions.
- [81:11]
C
Right?
- [81:11]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [81:12]
A
But I'm assuming you were the details, like, kept things in order, like, back office type stuff.
- [81:17]
B
I did the stuff he didn't want to do, which was like, the hr, which is the payroll, which is, you know, because it's easy. Like, once you do it a few times, you can just do it.
- [81:24]
A
Repetition.
- [81:25]
B
But show me a piano and my eyes just glaze over. I'm like, I don't fucking.
- [81:30]
A
I'm happy you're being honest. And I think that I don't want this show to be like, bs. I want it to be real conversations, real operators, and the things that people don't discuss on mainstream media because they're trying to create an illusion.
- [81:43]
B
But I'm the idealist. Like, it's all gonna work out in the end. And he's like, okay, but we're 40 now, so, like, at what point do we maybe switch? That's the thing. You don't know. Like, you don't know if it's the 11th inning. And if you just like. I'm actually. I don't know why I talked about baseball, because I don't know baseball. But, you know, like, if you just stick it out one more day or one. You know, like, you don't know. And so in 2024, we're like, are we kidding ourselves?
- [82:09]
C
I also had to keep reminding her, as a chef, my skills are depreciating. Like, or.
- [82:15]
A
Your body isn't.
- [82:16]
B
Your body is breaking down.
- [82:18]
C
I can't push as hard as I used to.
- [82:20]
A
Right.
- [82:21]
C
And it's just gonna keep getting worse. And so if us making money requires me to push really hard, at some point, it's just not gonna happen.
- [82:30]
A
Right.
- [82:30]
C
Yeah.
- [82:31]
A
So what was it about your, you know, Ryan Stewart? He looked at your numbers, and everything seemed to look like there was an opportunity here. Like, where were your numbers in 20? 20, 24?
- [82:42]
C
They're just okay. Like, they're good, but they're. They're okay. And so I think what Drew. Ryan, he's been looking. He's been itching to do more, and.
- [82:53]
B
We'Ve been itching to do less.
- [82:54]
C
Yeah. So it's like a perfect match today.
- [82:57]
A
You. I think you gave a ballpark of about 35% food cost, food costs, and 30 labor costs. So you're doing about 65 prime cost. Did you say your percent profit currently?
- [83:09]
C
It's probably nothing because they're growing.
- [83:12]
A
Yeah.
- [83:13]
C
And when you grow your.
- [83:13]
A
What about prior to when he took over?
- [83:16]
C
Nothing crazy. Probably like 5%.
- [83:18]
A
Okay.
- [83:19]
C
Yeah.
- [83:20]
B
I would make more teaching, though.
- [83:22]
C
Yeah.
- [83:23]
B
And I would have benefits.
- [83:24]
A
Yeah. So did he look at this and say, there's things you can be doing to streamline process?
- [83:31]
B
Oh, for sure. Like, we hate checklists. And he's like, I'm gonna do checklists. And I'm like. Like, I'm not going to be here for that. So.
- [83:37]
C
Okay.
- [83:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's. There is that balance of system, process, procedure. Like, you. Like, there's. You got to figure out, like, how do I recreate myself in this business if I get sick tomorrow? How does the business go on?
- [83:49]
B
Yeah.
- [83:50]
A
And that is a hard transition for restaurant tourists to remove themselves from the day to day to. To not be on top of every little detail to. It's their baby.
- [83:59]
B
Yeah.
- [83:59]
A
You got to let your baby go out into the world and grow up and do its own thing. That's a hard transition. It sounds like that was a hard transition.
- [84:05]
B
It was very hard. Oh. It was harder for me than. For. He was like, peace.
- [84:09]
C
So at that point, Ryan had two food trucks. I think he was, like, in the middle of buying a bar. He's just. He wants to buy and grow, and that's his thing. And he's apparently looked at a lot of restaurants already at this point, like, years. And it's not that our numbers were, like, seriously impressive, but. But rather, there was room for. They were real. Yeah. He's like, you won't believe the number of numbers that were fake. And as they dug deeper and started asking questions, it was like, wait, how did you come up with these numbers? And then they realized, oh, you made these up. They made them up. Yeah.
- [84:42]
B
Or we pay our taxes.
- [84:43]
C
Yeah.
- [84:44]
B
We do everything.
- [84:45]
C
Yeah. He's like, wow, this is real.
- [84:48]
A
Yeah. I mean, the truth is 5% profit. 20, 24. There's few people that are even doing that. I think that your concept could do 15, 20% with consistent volume. And if you really streamline system process and try to figure out maybe charge a little bit more like. Like, how much can we get?
- [85:10]
B
Yeah.
- [85:11]
A
So when somebody like Ryan comes in and sees you're doing one thing really well.
- [85:15]
B
Yeah.
- [85:15]
A
I'm sure there's more than one thing that you're doing.
- [85:17]
B
No, just one thing.
- [85:18]
A
Okay.
- [85:18]
B
One trick pony.
- [85:19]
A
So, like, it is a business model that happens. Has legs.
- [85:22]
B
Yeah.
- [85:22]
A
It's a proven concept.
- [85:24]
B
Yeah.
- [85:24]
A
That has rapport. Like, it's a legacy brand in many ways. Like, you are the smash burger of Houston.
- [85:29]
B
Yeah.
- [85:30]
A
There's opportunity there. I'm sure that's what he saw. And if he was here, like, now is when he would be kind of ramping up into what he saw and what the appeal was.
- [85:38]
B
And what's funny is when you reached out, it was like, unstoppable podcast. And I'm literally currently stopped, and I'm like, I'm gonna be a fraud on this podcast because we literally just stopped working. And I don't particularly feel unstoppable in this moment. Right. But then I thought about it more, and he. He said, it's true. It's like we handed the baton off to him.
- [85:58]
A
This is one of the many paths you can take.
- [86:00]
B
Yeah. To be unstoppable. And again, I'm the waffler. Right. He's the committer. Like, when. When we met Ryan, I'm pretty sure he was like, let's make this fucking happen. And I was like, but my baby and all the. And. But maybe we could do, like, maybe, like, that was me. I, like, was like, like, there's options here.
- [86:18]
A
I think what's important from today's conversation is that there's a million to one different ways you can go about moving forward.
- [86:24]
B
Yeah.
- [86:24]
A
And you gotta figure out what makes sense for you. And I think this isn't. This isn't a common path that people talk about on the show, but it's a very valuable path.
- [86:33]
B
Yeah.
- [86:33]
A
And I think it's important that people consider maybe you build something and then you find a partner. Like we talked earlier about, like, tribal. Like, we need people.
- [86:42]
B
Right.
- [86:42]
A
We can't be everything.
- [86:44]
B
Yeah.
- [86:44]
A
We can't. And it's only getting more competitive.
- [86:47]
B
Yeah.
- [86:47]
A
The. The marketplace is only getting harder. You need to be a part of a tribe.
- [86:52]
B
Yeah.
- [86:52]
A
And if you're the chef and you have, what would you give yourself? Your title. Co owner. But, like, what's your. Your role here? Like, HR operations, like, the administrative. Like, you need the. The visionary that's going to go out and. And see what's possible.
- [87:08]
C
Yeah.
- [87:08]
A
Like, you need that. That is a part. It was one of those. Those legs to the stool that the stool needs to stand.
- [87:13]
B
Yeah.
- [87:13]
A
Like, you can't do it alone.
- [87:14]
B
And I think the thing is, it started to feel like a prison. Right. Like, we felt like we couldn't escape all the things that we had to do. And it was just like, is. And that's the thing. It's like, is this really worth doing?
- [87:26]
A
Yeah.
- [87:27]
B
So. And I think that you can keep doing it. And I think that there was, like, perfect timing where finally we were like, okay, let's do this. We step away. I'M like, oh, I have all this free time and then I fucking get cancer.
- [87:39]
A
I'm so sorry.
- [87:41]
B
Because I.
- [87:41]
A
This is recent news.
- [87:42]
B
This is recent. April 2025, I had two surgeries. I'm in the clear, hopefully. But I was like, fucking like, the worst timing, but also the best timing.
- [87:52]
A
So, you know, you have the time.
- [87:53]
B
To slow down or. What would I have done if I was still running the same way? Would I have taken time to even go get a mammogram?
- [88:02]
A
Right. Would you even known?
- [88:04]
B
Because if I didn't get the mammogram, I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have known. And I think that when you're so busy, when you're sewing the shits, you put your stuff on the back burner, Right? Like, I could get the mammogram next year. Like, what if I did that?
- [88:18]
C
Right.
- [88:18]
B
And so I think that. I think that I was afraid of selling out, but I think that selling is not necessarily selling out. You can sell to grow, to become unstoppable.
- [88:30]
A
It cash in is what I like to say.
- [88:32]
B
Yeah.
- [88:33]
A
There's a difference between selling out and cashing in.
- [88:35]
C
Yeah.
- [88:35]
A
Cashing in is you're. You're doing the work. You're doing the work, you're building value, you're building value, and eventually you cash in. Even if that value is a repetition, a reputation in a brand that has a lot of, you know, momentum in a market that just needs that. That systems operations person to take it to the next level.
- [88:53]
B
Yeah.
- [88:54]
A
So what is the agreement you guys have now? Because he. You are still owners of the business today, correct?
- [88:59]
C
Yes, we sold a majority.
- [89:02]
A
Okay.
- [89:03]
C
So combined we have 15 of the company. So 7.5 each. And we will also have 15 combined of whatever second location they open.
- [89:15]
A
So you have 15. Is that just the second location, or is it in perpetuity of every location that they open?
- [89:21]
C
No. So after location two, if we want some kind of ownership, we'd have to Invest.
- [89:26]
A
Okay. So that 15. 7.5 each. Does that mean you get 15% of profit from the first and second location going forward?
- [89:41]
C
So theoretically, yes. This was something during the negotiations, you know, our. Our side was telling us, warning us about where it's kind of tricky. And, you know, these deals are always tricky, but there are a lot of things put in check to try to make it safe. But theoretically, yes. But there are obviously a lot of loopholes where we could never see a dime.
- [90:07]
B
Yeah. If. If Ryan wanted to fuck us over, he could fuck us over. So the hope is that he won't fuck us over.
- [90:13]
C
Our lawyer kind of walked us through all the ways that we could be fucked over. And I don't think Brian will do it. But he could dilute the shares. Right? He create more shares and our 15 becomes one. He could never make a profit by upping the pay that he and his team get forever.
- [90:32]
A
Like, if you increase owner's pay and.
- [90:34]
C
Do nothing for profit, there'd be no profit.
- [90:35]
B
Right.
- [90:36]
C
So they're like this, just the two most obvious ways. But the lawyer is like, I've seen deals like this, and, you know, percentage doesn't mean a whole lot. Right. Like, unless.
- [90:45]
A
Is it equity in the business? Do you own. You own 15% of the business. So if the business were to get sold, we would. You would get 15% of whatever the selling price was.
- [90:57]
C
Yeah.
- [90:59]
A
How do you. I mean, I think this is really. This is where it gets awkward.
- [91:02]
C
Right.
- [91:02]
A
And I always try to give my guests heads up. Like, I'm going to ask you questions. You're not supposed to ask people in a private conversation at dinner, let alone on a podcast.
- [91:09]
B
Yeah.
- [91:09]
A
Where, like, I'm publishing it to the world. But the thing is, we don't talk about this, which is why. Where do people get in trouble? Money and relationships in the restaurant industry. Because we don't talk about it. There's no benchmarks. We don't know what's.
- [91:21]
B
And we're Asian. We really don't talk about it.
- [91:23]
A
I know. So I'd like to say, like, my intention is to share benchmarks, to share perspective, to give people a starting point of, like, this is how you negotiate these things. Things. Here are examples. There are. There is no one way to do it, but hearing as many different perspectives as possible to find out which makes the most sense for you. And you're given, like. So, like, what are the things that you can share? I guess that can help empower the people listening to this. You kind of shared the. The model 15.
- [91:55]
B
Yeah.
- [91:55]
A
They get 75.
- [91:58]
C
I. I will say, like, I think not so much.
- [92:00]
A
75. 85. Sorry. My math is.
- [92:02]
B
That's okay. I do that all the time. And they're like, you're a math teacher. Yesterday I was like, 13 times 2 is 36. And they're like, diane.
- [92:13]
C
I think. I think selling, partnering, it's all very difficult for one main reason. The seller always overvalues their product. The buyer is always undervalue it.
- [92:26]
A
Right.
- [92:28]
C
And the middle ground is virtually impossible to reach.
- [92:31]
A
This is what we have lawyers for.
- [92:33]
C
Yeah.
- [92:33]
B
And they're so expensive.
- [92:34]
C
They are so expensive you use them. The less both sides will make.
- [92:38]
A
Right. And it's. That's a reality too, is it's harder to do the right thing. They say, go get a lawyer. It's just like, well, what's left for me?
- [92:46]
B
But then sometimes a lawyer might almost kill the deal.
- [92:49]
A
Right?
- [92:49]
B
Right. It's like, we're fine, but the lawyers are, like, making it something that we didn't mean it to make.
- [92:57]
A
Right.
- [92:58]
C
Yeah. Inevitably. We've used lawyers almost trying to prove their worth many times. But, you know, they'll get the document. They'll just start marking in red. So many things, like, even trivial things just like, who are they using on that side? This is trash.
- [93:12]
A
This is where I hope AI helps.
- [93:13]
C
It's like, you know, we. And we had to keep reminding the people who were using the lawyers, like, we just want this deal to go through. Like. Like, let's not be. I know it's your job, but let's not be too nitpicky about everything. Like, let's. We want it to go through.
- [93:28]
A
So you guys have been working together. When did the first conversation start? No. October 2023. And then by April, I know that you had terms.
- [93:37]
C
Right.
- [93:38]
A
Because I think you were published.
- [93:40]
B
And they had started. His team had started coming into the.
- [93:42]
C
Restaurant since the beginning of the year.
- [93:44]
A
What are the biggest impacts that they've had on the organization?
- [93:49]
C
Oh, well, I'll say the biggest change is they got rid of the zipline and installed screens.
- [93:56]
A
Where was your tech stack before he came on board? Like, I'm curious, like, what. What were the first things that he started to do? Like, he implemented a kbs. Were you using Toast?
- [94:06]
C
We were using Clover.
- [94:07]
A
Okay. Were you. Are you still using Clover?
- [94:09]
C
No.
- [94:10]
B
No.
- [94:10]
A
So what are the. Yeah. What are the major changes he's at? You mentioned the.
- [94:13]
B
The.
- [94:13]
A
The zip line going. What else?
- [94:17]
C
Yeah, UberEats, Uber Eats.
- [94:21]
B
I was very anti Uber.
- [94:22]
C
Never going to do Uber Eats.
- [94:24]
A
I turned them away as a sponsor once. I mean, I just. Because it's probably the same reasons because, like, I don't want to lift up companies that I don't think are making sure the restaurant wins.
- [94:34]
C
Yeah.
- [94:34]
B
I think I also think the food dies and it's really hard to communicate to the staff, I mean, to the customer directly if you made a mistake. Versus we used. And they still use Chow now.
- [94:44]
A
Yeah.
- [94:44]
B
And so I get their name, their number, their email. So if we screw something up, I can like, instantaneous be like, I'm so sorry.
- [94:53]
A
Wait, so with Ubereats you don't get that stuff.
- [94:55]
B
No.
- [94:56]
A
Channel you do. And I think that's. I think really the thing I'm worried about is third parties having too much momentum.
- [95:01]
B
Yeah.
- [95:02]
A
Because it's not just a third party. The consumers are more loyal to third party platforms today than they are to restaurants. I think a big part of that is because they rely on third parties. They're literal marketplaces where they relate, they trust those. Those marketplaces to get their information. But we know that those marketplaces aren't a real representation of what's actually good because it's a marketing platform.
- [95:26]
C
Right.
- [95:26]
A
And the other thing that scares the shit out of me about third party platforms is they own consumer happiness habits.
- [95:31]
B
Yeah.
- [95:31]
A
I think we don't think enough about that.
- [95:33]
B
Yeah.
- [95:33]
A
Because you're hungry, you have an habitual instinct to open the app and to tap the thing. And it already has my order. Three taps, I'm wham, bam, I'm out of here. Food is on its way.
- [95:43]
B
Yeah.
- [95:44]
A
And we don't have to. Don't forget, you don't have the contact information. You don't have the consumer habit.
- [95:49]
B
Yeah.
- [95:49]
A
That's scary.
- [95:50]
B
Yeah.
- [95:50]
A
We don't talk about this stuff because we're ignorant to it.
- [95:53]
B
Yeah.
- [95:53]
A
We're like, oh, but we're getting promoted to a wider audience of people that wouldn't know we're there.
- [95:59]
B
Yeah.
- [95:59]
A
And I'm like. And then once another competitor pays more for marketing, you won't even be an option.
- [96:05]
B
Yeah. Like, whenever I see sponsored, I just scroll down. I'm like, no, okay.
- [96:10]
C
Right.
- [96:10]
B
I think, I think you lose something with convenience.
- [96:12]
A
Right.
- [96:12]
B
So you lose the relationship.
- [96:14]
A
100%. 100%. I apologize. Well, I feel like you're going. You're going down a road. And I keep on, like, going on my tangents.
- [96:22]
C
Oh, no, not at all.
- [96:23]
A
My riffs. So you switch from clover to toast. You were thinking about UberEats. You decided not UberEats. You were using chow now, but now you are using UberEats. And what was the. The rationale there in terms? It was just because of the additional revenue, even if it wasn't owning the. The relationship.
- [96:44]
C
I think they just wanted to hit a wider market, more throughput. Yeah.
- [96:49]
A
Yeah. I think post Pandemic, we all went, whoa, we need to slow down. We're working too many hours. Like, we're gonna start a response out of first or response out of survival was open for less hours.
- [97:04]
C
Right.
- [97:04]
A
And then I remember thinking to myself, how long is this gonna last?
- [97:08]
B
Yeah.
- [97:09]
A
Before people just start saying, well, we can make more. We can make more. We gotta compete. We got to compete. Have we gotten back to that point, do you think, or have we learned our lesson?
- [97:20]
C
Hmm. I don't know. But I did just have a thought because I have a lot of kitchen coworker peers. What. What have you that I came up with. And this is like something weird to think about and say, but we came up in a different time, right? And obviously our time was already better than the time before. You hear of old French chefs, like, physically abusing the workers, but we came up at a time where the standards were extremely high. Of course, we got yelled at constantly. You know, if you're not early, you're late, that kind of mentality. I've even known some people who weren't good enough who had to work for free for certain hours each day to meet.
- [98:04]
A
The best thing that has to stop is the staging, you know?
- [98:07]
C
Yeah.
- [98:08]
A
I think there's one thing to go learn, but to continue that for like two years. Yeah, it's like I get like, okay, a week. You're getting in there, and you're almost more of an inconvenience than you are because you, you don't know the kitchen, you don't know the routines. But keep going, will it.
- [98:20]
C
But I think it's hard because all of us, we had dreams of bettering the industry. Everyone, right? But I think the industry has bettered itself faster than we're prepared for. Like, not even better. Just people now want way more pay for way less work. And it really feels like people my age, you know, who came up at the exact same time. We're getting kind of the shortest end of the stick where we put in the work and we suffered a lot and we're improving things. But now you are asking for way more. And I don't know how to. How I feel about all of it. I don't really know how to, like, how to really unpack that. But it's like, I think it is essentially like the world moving faster than we can adapt to.
- [99:11]
A
Right. I mean, it's interesting because I think as the world continues to evolve with technology and AI, I think they're saying up to 40% of jobs are going to be lost in the next three years. Those jobs are going to be white collar jobs. And I'm hopeful for the future of the restaurant industry because I. I hope that these people are going to want purpose, they're going to want to be around people. I think at the end of the day, the restaurant, like the restaurant Industry is not going anywhere. Maybe you'll see more AI, more automation, more flippies. I don't know. Do you know what the flippy is? Yeah, yeah. You know, like more robots in very simple kitchens doing things. Because there's always going to be that person that wants convenience in cost, value over experience. But people are still going to want that third place. They're still going to want to be able to go meet and socialize and have relationships. And I think the restaurant industry is going to have a lot of opportunity going forward. But I guess my hope is that as more and more people who've gotten a taste of real jobs, quote unquote, they're going to come to this industry and be like, well, you know, they're going to demand it. And I think it will trickle down to the consumer.
- [100:22]
C
Yeah.
- [100:22]
A
You know, because eventually the consumer is going to have to pay for the cost of doing business.
- [100:26]
C
Yeah, exactly. And I feel like that's kind of where business owners get the most stuck, where it feels like everyone's taking for you and you're trying to juggle both sides, where everyone's now demanding more, which they should. But if the customers aren't willing to pay for it, where is it coming from? The owner is the one paying for it. Right.
- [100:52]
A
Yeah. So what do we do? What's the solution?
- [100:55]
C
We move to Taiwan and sell the business.
- [100:58]
B
Well, and in all honesty, part of the reason we wanted to move to Taipei with the health stuff is just like, I want to see what quality of life is over there. And their food scene is vibrant. And their tip, they don't have tipping. And they have health insurance provided by the government. Like, what does that look like?
- [101:14]
A
What would you do there for work?
- [101:16]
B
Good question.
- [101:18]
C
I have a spreadsheet. Like, it'll either be, there's like 10 options, but I could work for someone else again, or we could open something.
- [101:29]
A
There would always be a job. Hiring a cook. Do you speak Taiwanese?
- [101:33]
C
Mandarin. They speak Mandarin as well.
- [101:35]
A
One isn't even a language.
- [101:37]
C
It is.
- [101:37]
B
It's a dialect. Yeah.
- [101:40]
A
That'D be cool. Well, I hope it works out for you guys. I really do.
- [101:43]
C
Thank you.
- [101:43]
A
And I think that what you pointed out, you know, that it comes back to the consumer, is what I've. My, like, my job is to, like, go find answers. When I started this podcast, I was like, I'm gonna go figure it out.
- [101:54]
B
Yeah.
- [101:54]
A
Go find out the way to run a restaurant.
- [101:56]
C
Yeah.
- [101:56]
A
And the more I learned, the more I realized I didn't know anything. And the more I realized it's very complicated. And there is no one way.
- [102:01]
B
No.
- [102:02]
A
There is no single path.
- [102:03]
B
And there's no easy answer too. Like you can get inspired by a podcast and then go back to work and get like deflated again. Right, right. Like you just, at some point you just have to pick something and do it.
- [102:15]
A
Right. And I do think that I've learned a lot of what is clearly broken with the industry that doesn't get enough conversation. We talked about a few of those things today. Marketing, I think, is a real issue with the industry. And that's not to say I don't believe in marketing.
- [102:30]
B
Yeah.
- [102:30]
A
But I think that the, the ecosystem is warped in the direction of the people who own the platforms, not the actual people using the service.
- [102:39]
C
Yeah.
- [102:39]
A
Like, the restaurant industry is not the beneficiary of its hard work. We make other industries rich.
- [102:45]
B
Like for instance, there's a lot of events to promote, you know, like the top 100 guy and they ask for free food.
- [102:52]
A
Right.
- [102:53]
B
And like the consumers don't know. The consumers assume you're getting reimbursed, you're getting paid. And it's like, no, this like thousand, two thousand dollars is supposed to come out of my pocket and I'm like, I don't have a budget. That budget is my salary.
- [103:06]
C
Right.
- [103:07]
A
You know, so it's marketing, it's list. This the idea of list culture.
- [103:11]
B
Yeah.
- [103:12]
A
Trying to make it the list. Make the list again. That goes back to marketing. It's directly tied.
- [103:16]
B
Which don't get me wrong, like every time we make something or it's like.
- [103:19]
A
Thanks for a year.
- [103:20]
B
Yeah.
- [103:21]
A
And then you're. Then there's like this anxiety tied to.
- [103:24]
B
Like a drug addiction.
- [103:25]
A
Need it.
- [103:25]
B
It's track addiction.
- [103:26]
A
Yeah. It. In many ways it is dopamine, adrenaline, you know, and then I think another big part is the. That didn't come out until just now. Is the biggest challenge, the biggest threat to the restaurant industry, I think is the consumer. We are in a, in a consumeristic marketplace. Like, our job is to respond to what the consumer wants. It's literally what consumer is. Give the people what they want.
- [103:49]
B
Yeah.
- [103:50]
A
But marketing is telling the consumer that they want more for less inconvenience. And that's what we're up against. But that's not. If you look at what humans need, not the same thing.
- [104:01]
B
I mean, it's funny because we. You can order as many patties as you want. And so I'm conflicted. When I was cashiering to be like someone who wants four or five ounce patties from a business perspective, I'm like, do it. But from like a mommy health perspective, I'm like, like, right. I don't know that you should be eating.
- [104:19]
A
I don't know if I believe in consumerism. I think I'm very much pro capitalism. But I think we need to. The restaurant industry, restaurant owners need to advocate for conscious capitalism. And that is prior, prior, prioritizing purpose over profit. Which is a hard sell.
- [104:35]
B
It's a hard sell.
- [104:37]
A
But I think that we're moving into this future of more conscious people. What was that book you showed me today?
- [104:43]
B
The Art of Living. It's. It was over there, but I'm on a Buddhism kick.
- [104:47]
A
I think that we are awakening as a society. I think that people are pursuing this idea of mindfulness and consciousness more than ever before. And I think that that is key. That if we, if we have a standing chance going into the future, it has to be because people become more conscious and we have to push and promote conscious capitalism. And we can't do that if we don't control consumer information and consumer happiness habits.
- [105:10]
B
Yeah. I mean, I'm also conflicted because I finished a book about the environment and how we should be eating less red meat. And I'm like, we own a burger restaurant. What am I supposed to do?
- [105:18]
A
Yeah, but is that real? Because in the same breath you could say that beef is going to be what fixes the earth. Regenerative farming. So you can't believe everything you see. There's a bounce that I think has to happen. Definitely. There's a balance.
- [105:33]
B
Yeah.
- [105:33]
C
Right.
- [105:34]
A
Do we need to be as much red meat? Probably not. Yeah, there's. But what does that balance look like? And is it centralizing the food system or spreading it out?
- [105:42]
B
And people don't like being told what to do.
- [105:43]
C
Right.
- [105:44]
B
So you have to be very careful in that. Right. Like if you want to eat your four five ounce patties, it depends. Like you have to read the situation. Like it. It's tough.
- [105:57]
C
Yeah.
- [105:57]
A
I think we got a lot to learn. But what I'm excited about the future is that there's. The information is fragmenting. I think we have to be careful with AI because that could sow a lot of disinformation. I think that's something we have to be mindful of. What are you guys thinking? I don't want to do all the. I feel like I'm talking too much right now. I want to make sure you get your thoughts out.
- [106:16]
B
You sound like me because I always talk. And then I was like, what do you think? Because I realized I railroad him all the time and he's like, literally, I'm not thinking about anything.
- [106:25]
C
Yeah, sometimes I'm just not thinking.
- [106:26]
B
I, like, can't read him because sometimes it's. My mind is blank and sometimes it's. I'm thinking about something and I'm waiting for you to ask me. So, like, I over ask him all the time.
- [106:36]
A
Well, we can wrap it up. If you guys have nothing to share, I don't want to force it on you, but it has been a lot of fun and I do appreciate you welcoming me in, even though, you know, you're feeling a little. Not a little stoppable right now. I think that the perspective you had to share was really valuable and the vulnerability was really valuable. Appreciate.
- [106:54]
B
I think vulnerability is something that I promote in that it's realistic. Because social media, I think, can be damaging. Like, social media is necessary for a business. And social media does have its pros, but it definitely has its cons because you feel like, oh, they're super successful. They have it all together. And it's like, we don't. But you. But like, you don't want to put it all out there because then it's just like, oh, well, they suck.
- [107:21]
C
Yeah.
- [107:21]
B
You know, so it's like you choose what you want to reveal, and it is a personal choice, but it goes.
- [107:27]
A
Back to creating that false reality that we put out into the world. So no wonder why consumers have no clue.
- [107:32]
B
Yeah.
- [107:33]
A
Why, like, oh, like, how much. How greedy can you be? How. How expensive can a burger be?
- [107:37]
B
Yeah.
- [107:37]
A
Well, here's. Here's the how we got to this price.
- [107:40]
B
It's like, I made 5 cents on this burger, so just calm down.
- [107:43]
A
So if you're creating a world. World that is centered around promoting ignorance because you don't want people to know what's real.
- [107:51]
B
Yeah.
- [107:52]
A
Then you can't expect people to know what can't. How can you be conscious if you're not getting the information that you need to be aware?
- [108:00]
B
Yeah. And I think that's sort of the struggle that you were talking about is there is this conflict between good business and, like, being a good citizen.
- [108:09]
A
Yeah.
- [108:09]
B
And I feel like it shouldn't be that hard. And there's two options. You can just leave the industry and be like, it's an impossible situation. I don't know what to do. Or you can try. And I waffle between the two. Sometimes I just want to go back to teaching. And sometimes I'm like, this is what we're meant to Do. And ultimately we'll see how it pans out.
- [108:31]
A
Yeah, I've really enjoyed today's conversation. A couple questions I asked before we wrap it up that I try to ask all my guests. I've been bad about asking some of these recently. I should get back into the habit. But what is one thing that you've done recently in your business that's had a huge impact on moving the needle?
- [108:48]
C
For us, it was literally partnering. It's realizing sometimes that you just don't have all the answers yourselves and maybe you're stronger as a larger unit, that you just need to team up to bring it forward.
- [109:05]
B
I think sometimes it's hard to ask for help or like, you know, to partner with someone to have that help to give you relief so that you can do something else and, yeah, explore what else is out there.
- [109:16]
A
And this, in this example, you literally have Ryan Stewart, founder of Silver Linings Hospitality, who is a partner, a business partner, but have you outsourced to any partners recently? Services that do something that you could never do as well in house? So you outsource.
- [109:34]
B
That might be a Ryan question.
- [109:36]
C
Yeah, I think they might be like looking at cleaning services. I mean, for the longest time, the cleaning service, the additional cleaning service was just us too. Like, we notice things and then we'd stay late to clean extra.
- [109:52]
A
Well.
- [109:53]
C
Yeah, got it.
- [109:54]
A
What is one thing about your business? A value, a process assistance that makes you truly unstoppable?
- [110:01]
C
I think to start a restaurant and if you want to be unstoppable, and I think Ryan actually touched on this earlier, you have to know every position. You shouldn't open something and just think, I just need the right team. I'm going to rely on everyone else's expertise. I'm just the person that has the.
- [110:22]
B
Money and because then you're beholden to your team.
- [110:24]
C
Exactly. You don't want to be beholden. It's not to say you can't trust the team and you can't delegate and you can't use people to grow because you do need a team to run a restaurant. But it's also useful when you start it to know everything. Yeah.
- [110:43]
A
You need a system dependent operation, not a people dependent operation. I think there's something to be said about learning every role that your restaurant has before you delegate it. Because when that person calls out, you might not be the best person at it, but you can step in until you can find somebody else. The mission statement is to change the world by inspiring, empowering, and transforming the restaurant industry. So how have you personally transformed. How are you better people today than you were in 2016?
- [111:15]
B
This feels like a therapy session. I'm like, am I better?
- [111:21]
A
I think you are. I think you, you realize what matters more to you today?
- [111:25]
B
Yeah, that's a deep question.
- [111:28]
A
We'll get ready for the next one.
- [111:31]
C
Well, I sharpen my own knives. I have since my first job as a sushi chef. And there was something they would tell me and it is a sharp knife is easier to sharpen than a dull knife. You know, common sense. Right.
- [111:47]
A
Like fewer strokes to get it back to where it was.
- [111:50]
C
Duh. It's already, it's already sharp. Of course you can sharpen it more easily. But I think that's true for everything. For your skill set, for your character, for everything. Like, it's easy to let things slip, especially now when our work is not as constant. But I think doing pop ups and cooking at home and everything, like, like every day is a chance for continual, like, self refinement. Like, you don't have to let your everyday dictate whether you stop growing. You just got to keep putting yourself in situations where you can keep polishing. You know, like we're stones basically, and we have to keep polishing or else we don't have any value.
- [112:36]
B
I love when he just like throws out these little nuggets of wisdom.
- [112:40]
A
It's. But it's so true. It's like if you, you know, exercise and then you stop exercising for a year and you start eating like you gain 20 pounds.
- [112:47]
B
Yeah.
- [112:48]
A
Horrible cardio. Like it's gonna be harder to get back in shape.
- [112:50]
B
Yeah.
- [112:51]
A
But if you get off the wagon for like a week, you might not feel. And maybe you eat like the weekend before, but. And you show up on Monday, you're gonna be like, what the did I do that for? Yeah, I definitely don't feel as good as I did last week running. But you're still gonna be able to run the five miles.
- [113:04]
C
Yeah.
- [113:05]
B
Yeah.
- [113:05]
A
And you know, it's easier to get back on the horse if you just fell off. You got to keep that constant.
- [113:10]
B
And sometimes you're meant to fall off.
- [113:12]
A
Right?
- [113:13]
C
Right.
- [113:13]
A
Sometimes that's what the universe had planned for you.
- [113:16]
B
Yeah.
- [113:16]
A
Yeah. So this next question is a doozy. If you got the news you'd be leaving this world tomorrow, all the memories of you, your work in your restaurants, will be lost with your departure. With the exception of three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for the good of humanity and your legacy. What would those three pieces of wisdom be?
- [113:32]
B
I'm Looking at my notes.
- [113:35]
A
I almost. I stopped asking this for. For some reason over the past, like, two weeks I've been on the road. I just wasn't asking this question. And I don't know. Why do you think? I think maybe it's too heavy.
- [113:43]
B
Sometimes it's heavy, but I'm all for heavy. And I wrote this a week ago, so I'm going to read it out loud because I actually don't remember. So the three pieces of wisdom I wrote at the beginning. No matter how much research you do and how prepared you may feel, you will scramble to make things work. You will learn on your. My handwriting's bad. You will learn on your work. What does that say? You will lean on your work. This is really embarrassing. Things won't go to plan, but you will still have to jump. I don't like that one.
- [114:20]
A
Start from the top.
- [114:21]
B
That's first draft. Let me just keep going. Sometimes you just gotta go for it. Okay. Number two. It's okay to not feel like you have all the answers and don't have everything figured out. You learn as you go. Don't be afraid to be vulnerable and lean on others. You can't do it all, even if you want to or feel like you have to. Number three, take a breath if you need it. Box breathing.
- [114:49]
A
There you go.
- [114:50]
B
Okay. Hard work and dedication are valiant traits, but you need balance. You need to be working towards something other than for yourself to build yourself up. All that hard work only means something if it positively affects someone else.
- [115:11]
A
Do you have anything to add?
- [115:13]
B
He's like, how do you follow that up?
- [115:15]
C
Yeah. No, I mean, I didn't write anything down, but I think. I think the general gist is the best we can do is to leave things better than it was when we got here.
- [115:26]
B
And it's a Girl Scout motto. Leave no trace.
- [115:29]
A
Yeah.
- [115:29]
C
Life.
- [115:30]
A
Leave it better than how you found it.
- [115:31]
B
Leave it better than how you found.
- [115:32]
C
It is short and I think. I don't know. Running a restaurant is stressful. And you have all these moments where you're like, I wish I were dead. And that's a heavy thing to think and say and joke about. And I have known restaurant people who've committed suicide. And it's very unfortunate, but life is ultimately short. Right. Whether it's 100 years or 60 years or 30 years, it's still short in the grand scheme of things.
- [115:59]
B
Yeah.
- [116:00]
C
And there's no real thing as immortality from that concept. But the most we could hope for is that people remember us. And you hope that they remember you positively.
- [116:16]
A
Yeah.
- [116:16]
C
And so I know your question was, there's no trace of you. What wisdom do you have? But maybe just to act in a way.
- [116:23]
A
With the exception of three. There's three things.
- [116:27]
C
Act in a way where you hope people will have fond memories of you. I love that.
- [116:33]
A
This has been a lot of fun. I can't do what I do without people like you first making time for me, which is hard to do in the restaurant industry. But also I appreciate you getting open and vulnerable and being transparent.
- [116:45]
B
I hate crying.
- [116:46]
A
It's not easy to do. And I think we need to be more honest with each other in this industry and stop putting up the front, the false realities. It's hard work that we do. And I think that this is a path to being unstoppable. The path you're on is by choosing to go further together and to find people where. Who are strong, where you're weak, and, I don't know, mean that in a disrespectful way. I don't think anybody's going to be amazing at all parts of the. We need to do it together. And how can we connect with you? If we really enjoyed today's conversation and we want to follow up, maybe we want to come check out your burgers one time. We're in Houston. How do we connect?
- [117:21]
C
Sure. Our Instagram is at Burger Chan htx. And then if you're curious about our popups, that's going to be at Borrowed Goods htx.
- [117:33]
A
Awesome. And I think I'm spurring this on you, but we have Restaurant Unstoppable Community. I'm making it a goal to have all of my guests. I'm inviting you. I'd love to have you guys join us for a Q A live Q A on Zoom sometime. So if you're interested in connecting with as many of the guests as I can get to show up for coffee with Eric every other week.
- [117:53]
B
Coffee done.
- [117:54]
A
Yeah, it's just restaurant owners talking shop. And hopefully I can get you guys to join that as well. And I think I should probably start giving my guest a heads up that I'm going to ask so I don't spur them.
- [118:04]
B
No, no. I was prepared. I just. I do that. And I did want to add, like, what makes us unstoppable, which is sappy, is just the fact that we have each other.
- [118:15]
A
Yeah, for sure. Stick around for the closing thoughts. I'll let you guys know if they agree to join us, what days that will be. And I. I literally can't do what I do. Without you guys, there is no questioning. You are unstoppable. Cheers.
- [118:27]
B
Cheers.
- [118:28]
C
Cheers.
- [118:29]
A
There's another episode wrapped up here at restaurant Unstoppable. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Will it and Diane Wu Fang, co owners of Burger Chon. Awesome people, these folks over at Burger Chan. I really enjoyed today's conversation. They were great to me. And we are also going to try to bring in Ryan from Silver Lining Hospitality. This is the organization that will it and Diane sold a percentage of their business to. I think that'd be a really cool conversation to navigate how to navigate business deals like this. So be sure to join us on January 26th at 11am Eastern Time. We're gonna have the the Fangs and Ryan over there and I think we also have Charles Clark, our previous episode. So it's going to be a full house. We're going to have a lot of great conversation. We'd love to have you be a part of it. Just head over to restaurantstoppable.com live and when you sign up for our community, that $47 a month, that's all I'm charging to get access to the best in the industry and the individuals that they're going to, the experts they're going to for help. We're bringing it all all together. We're having conversation in the network. When you sign up, you support this mission. You make knowledge accessible to everybody. We go further together. I can't wait to see you there. Until next time. Peace out.