Summary9 min read

Restaurant Unstoppable Episode 1246: Jordan Ware and Cindi Kozak, Co-Owners of Frankie’s

Release Date: January 22, 2026
Host: Eric Cacciatore
Guests: Jordan Ware & Cindi Kozak (Co-Owners, Frankie's, Burlington, VT)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Eric Cacciatore sits down with Jordan Ware and Cindi Kozak, co-owners of Frankie's in Burlington, Vermont—a restaurant recognized by Eater as one of America's best new restaurants. The conversation weaves through their personal journeys in hospitality, the founding and explosive growth of Frankie's, and practical insights on restaurant profitability, culture, community impact, and the future of restaurants in the age of technology. Jordan and Cindi reveal the mindset and operational strategies that led to Frankie's early success and share candid perspectives on leadership, financial realities, mentorship, and their vision for the future.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Universality and Purpose of Restaurants

Restaurants as unique spaces for unity and nourishment, transcending backgrounds and beliefs.
Emphasis on hospitality as the core mission beyond just serving food.

Quote:
“It is one of the places, I think, one of the only places where you get a large group of people together under one roof…and the only mission is to have a good time, to be. Doesn’t matter where, what you believe in, where you come from…All that matters is the cool unification of appreciating sitting down and having some good food.”
—Cindi Kozak (00:00, 32:10)

2. Building Frankie's: From Idea to Acclaimed Restaurant

Current State of the Business

Opened April 2024, full-service dinner, 70+ seats, 120–150 covers nightly.
2025 Projected revenue: ~$2.4 million, 15% profit margin.

Quote:
“Oh, wow. And that’s with 70 seats…so you got butts in seats almost every night…15% [profit]—that’s amazing in today’s market.”
—Eric Cacciatore, with Jordan confirming (09:47–10:07)

Recognized by Eater as one of America’s best new restaurants helped skyrocket business.

The Power of Press and Third-Party Platforms

Dramatic impact of positive media exposure; business jumped after Eater recognition.
Discussion about the outsized influence of publications and third-party platforms on restaurant success and consumer choice.

Quote:
“There’s like before the article, and then after the article for us…We were like dive bombing and then the article came out and it was just like, boom.”
—Jordan Ware (08:59)

3. Hospitality Philosophy: People, Playfulness, and Empowerment

Culture & Team Leadership

Daily family meals and lineups to foster a positive, safe, and collaborative environment.
Empowering both front- and back-of-house staff with autonomy and involving them in decision making.

Quote:
“I always try to empower [the kitchen crew] and get them part of the conversation…It’s not just me making decisions, like, what do we all want to do? What do we all want to make happen today?”
—Jordan Ware (06:16)

Service style centered on discovery and fun, surprising guests with unique, local products.
Reverse engineering the guest experience: Listening to each guest and customizing accordingly.
"It’s playful. And I want to keep it playful…we have opportunities every day to have moments of discovery with people."
—Cindi Kozak (20:52)

4. Journeys into Hospitality & Key Mentors

Jordan Ware

Early industry start as a teen, worked under demanding chef-mentors.
Shifted from creative focus to mentorship in later career stages.
Lifelong learning: “It shifts, you know…gets to a point where it becomes about mentoring other people.”

Cindi Kozak

Unexpected entry into hospitality during the 2008 recession (background in writing).
Inspired by European food culture—long, shared meals, deep appreciation for hospitality.
Rapid ascent in the industry (server to general manager to co-owner).

The Power of Mentors (Notably at Hen of the Woods)

Both credit Eric Warnstedt (Hen of the Woods) for their foundational work ethic, discipline, and for giving autonomy.
Key mentors: Chris Goss (for advice during their transition), Matt Canning (for proforma and financial guidance), Paul Saylor (banking and investment advice).

5. Financial Realities of Opening and Operating Frankie's

Raising Capital & Construction Challenges

Mix of bank loans ($300k), crowdfunding ($150k), private loans ($150k+), and personal savings; total startup cost ~$600–650k.
Key insight: Relationships and reputation with community, staff, and investors were critical to receiving favorable terms and support.

Quote:
“You never know who your future investor is going to be…Treat every guest like they are your future investor.”
—Eric Cacciatore (63:01)

Importance of Specialized Accountants

Leaned heavily on restaurant-specialized accountants (O’Reilly & O’Reilly).
Monthly financial check-ins; disciplined tracking of labor and food costs essential to reaching profitability within 10 months.

Quote:
“I don’t know how restaurants would do it without a Leo and a Jenny.”
—Jordan Ware (71:58)

Learning to Trim Costs & Grow Sustainably

Initial sky-high labor costs (~50%), quickly right-sized to below 40%.
Menu pricing driven by cost realities, unapologetically charging what’s required to maintain quality, local sourcing, and profitability.

Quote:
“I don’t think we’re doing each other any service by not charging what we’re supposed to be charging…people are going to be mad about costs in general…and that’s okay.”
—Cindi Kozak (78:41)

6. Community, Relationships, and the Restaurant as a Social Hub

Restaurants as community anchors; a place for celebration, connection, and shared identity.
Success driven by internal relationships—with staff, with partners, and with the community.
Valuing support and collaboration over competition in the local industry. “It’s so much more fun to support one another…”
—Cindi Kozak (104:00)

7. Technology and the Future of Restaurants

Role of Tech and AI

Leveraging tools like Toast POS and Resi for efficiency and insight; positive on AI tools for analysis and administrative tasks, but skeptical about replacing core human elements.
AI as a future “CFO”—ability to identify trends, operational improvements.

Quote:
“That’s cool…and I appreciate like an advanced Google. It’s going to be a CFO real soon because…here are the patterns, here are the trends, here are things that you can do to shave a point off.”
—Cindi Kozak & Eric Cacciatore (104:37–105:42)

Strong belief that hands-on, people-centric work remains irreplaceable.
Frankie's pays close attention to human connection—team cohesion, guest experience, local relationships—as a future-proofing mechanism.

Local Food Systems and Sustainability

Vermont cited as a model for sustainable, local food culture.
Maintaining 15% profitability while remaining true to local, ethical sourcing: “You’re living proof…how you make that work while maintaining 15% profit.”
—Eric Cacciatore (75:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Restaurant Culture:
“I feel so lucky to work in an environment every day where we can have fun…We have opportunities every day to have moments of discovery with people.”
—Cindi Kozak (20:52)
On Growth and Change:
“When we started down this path…so many people just came into our corner…”
—Jordan Ware (37:52)
On Financial Realities:
“It was the hardest decision I’ve ever made in my life…Hands down.”
—Jordan Ware (47:00)
On Empowerment:
“It made me treat the people that were under me the same way…just empowering people.”
—Jordan Ware (46:01)
On Restaurant as Community:
“For our whole existence, our existence has been about getting food and sustaining each other…where’s everybody going to go?…Go work with your hands.”
—Eric Cacciatore, Jordan Ware (33:36–34:15)
On Purpose and Mentorship:
“When I texted my mom a picture…her response was, ‘I’m really proud of all your success, but I’m more proud that you’re a mentor.’ And that hit really hard…”
—Jordan Ware (115:58)

Timestamps for Key Segments

00:00 – The heart of restaurants: Unification and hospitality (Cindi Kozak’s opening thoughts)
04:32 – Introducing Jordan Ware and Cindi Kozak; mission and success mantras
08:10 – Scale and scope of Frankie's today: Seats, covers, revenues, profitability
11:25 – Private dining, changing trends, and flexibility in operations
12:05 – Ware’s and Kozak’s early trajectories and discovering their calling
16:08 – Lessons from Europe; food culture as an education (Kozak)
19:27 – First impressions: Ware and Kozak as teammates, discovering each other's strengths
20:19 – Playfulness and moments of discovery as central to the Frankie's ethos
23:47 – Hen of the Woods: Growth, mentorship, foundational years for both
34:32 – Decision to take over the Frankie's space and start a restaurant
41:39 – Lessons from Hen; evolving into leadership, autonomy, and business acumen
43:54 – Hospitality as generosity: "Letting guests win" and moments of surprise
47:00 – On key mentors and the emotional weight of opening independently
51:25 – Raising capital: Crowdfunding, bank loans, and reputation as currency
53:10 – Construction and project management hurdles
59:14 – Service philosophy: Always saying 'yes' and making the extra effort
68:33 – Achieving profitability: Cutting labor, right-sizing, prime costs
73:20 – The importance of rigorous financial accountability and staying lean
75:47 – Maintaining ethics and sustainability amid rising costs
77:03 – Menu pricing strategies and food costing philosophy
83:22 – Building a sustainable culture and empowering key team members
86:19 – Relationships and organizations as living systems; the importance of every role
89:08 – Working capital: Keeping a safety net for the team
90:02 – Vision for the future: Growth, reinvestment, and creating opportunity for others
104:37 – AI in restaurants: Cautious optimism, keeping the “human” forefront
108:09 – Vermont as a sustainability model and the importance of community support
115:24 – "Three pieces of wisdom": Care, positive encouragement, and courage (Kozak/Ware)

Standout Wisdom & Takeaways

1. Purpose-Driven Hospitality Wins

Put people—staff and guests—at the center. Hospitality is about more than food; it’s about shared joy and community belonging.

2. Empowerment and Fun are Strategic

Team engagement, agency, and playfulness aren't soft perks—they're critical for retention, guest experience, and bottom line success.

3. Numbers Matter, But People Matter More

Profitability and cost control require rigor. Trusted, specialized accountants and a culture of financial transparency are powerful levers.

4. Invest in Relationships

With staff, peers, investors, mentors, and the larger community. Relationships are the greatest store of value and provide access, advice, and capital.

5. Be Unapologetic About Quality and Price

If you stand for sourcing local and providing excellence, price your menu to sustain your values and your business.

6. Don’t Go It Alone

"No one builds a great restaurant alone." Find mentors, collaborators, and cheerleaders—and start paying it forward.

7. The Restaurant of the Future is Both High-Tech and High-Touch

Leverage technology for analysis and insight—but double down on the human elements only independent restaurants can offer.

Guests' Closing Wisdom (115:24)

Care about what you're doing
Regenerate positive encouragement through your community
Don't be afraid—just go for it

Bonus:
“Mentorship is what I’m most proud of. That staff can come in and be excited, enthusiastic…keeps me going.” —Jordan Ware (115:58)

Connect & Learn More

Instagram: @frankiesvt
Website: frankiesvt.com
Contact: Cindi@frankiesvt.com

Suggested Future Guests (117:20)

Paul Saylor (American Flatbread, Zero Gravity Brewing)
Chris Goss (Hospitality mentor)
Jay Canning & Matt Canning (Hotel Vermont, local investors/supporters)

In Summary:
Frankie's success emerges not just from great food or smart operations, but from deep intentionality around people, community, and relationships—plus a rigorously practical approach to finance in the real world. Their story is a blueprint for building a restaurant that is truly "unstoppable."

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Transcript882 lines

[00:00]
Cindy Kozak
It is one of the places, I think one of the only places where you get a large group of people together under one roof and that is staff and guests included. That the only mission is to have.
[00:18]
Eric Cacciatore
A good time to be.
[00:19]
Cindy Kozak
It doesn't matter where, what you believe in, where you come from, what you do. Like, all that matters is the cool unification of appreciating sitting down with someone you care about or yourself and taking some time and having some good food. And that is something that like you like. It doesn't need to be muddied, doesn't need to be muddled with like and again, like we have the opportunity in Vermont with the farmers who we are so lucky to get to work with like that this is still an agrarian community and state in a lot of way and agrarian economy that we are able to bring some of the, I think some of the best food on the planet honestly to people and, and not only feed them, but like nourish them.
[01:10]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1000 episodes I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guest and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is made possible by Restaurant Systems Pro and beginning in January 2026, Restaurant Systems Pro is going to be doing a 30 day mastery program. This is valued at $4,000 and if you head over to go.restaurantsystemspro.net profits. You can for a limited time get this for only 97, but there is an even better deal if you sign up for a Restaurant Unstoppable network by heading to restaurantstoppable.com live. You can get day mastery program for free when you join the community and you also get access to this in perpetuity because they're going to be popping it off every month. Go into 2026 with all the knowledge and resources and tools you need to be unstoppable. In partnership with Restaurant Unstoppable and Restaurant Systems Pro again, Restaurant Unstoppable.com live. Join the community, get access to this training. This episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Their total oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil, eliminating one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Restaurant Technologies services over 45, 000 customers nationwide. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-779-5314 to get started. This episode is made possible by US Foods. Running a successful restaurant takes more than just great food.
[03:21]
Eric Cacciatore
With US Foods, you can expect more.
[03:23]
Podcast Host / Narrator
High quality products, advanced tools and flexible deliveries to grow your business. Their industry leading moxy platform also does more than just place your US Foods order. It uses AI to help you take control, save time and increase profitability. Visit usfoods.com expect more to learn how to become a US Foods customer one more time, that is usfoods.com expect more a couple things before we get started today. First, thank you so much for showing up week after week making my vision for restaurants unstoppable come true. Your downloads are allowing me to do the show the way I've always wanted to do it. Boots on the ground, word of mouth, leaders, referring leaders, giving the industry an uncensored, no BS platform to share their perspectives and truth. That's on you. Thank you so much. And we're just getting started. So if you're enjoying what we're doing here and you want to help us do it even better, please subscribe to this podcast on your your platform of choice. And if you do that, I promise to do everything in my power to continue to improve the show. I'll deliver the restaurant tours you want to hear from and we'll continue to make everything you love about this show better. Thank you.
[04:32]
Eric Cacciatore
With excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guests, co owners of Frankie's, Jordan Ware and Cindy Kozak. Jordan, Cindy, are you feeling unstoppable today?
[04:43]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
[04:44]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, we are.
[04:45]
Eric Cacciatore
I am stoked to be here. I had Eric. I always afraid to say his last name. Just say it for me. It looks so scary on paper.
[04:52]
Jordan Ware
Eric Warrenstead.
[04:53]
Eric Cacciatore
Warrenstead. And he was episode 625 long time restaurant tour here in Vermont. Hen of the woods. Prohibition pig, I think. What's the other one? Mr. Doc Ponds. Doc Ponds. And in that conversation way back he did mention your name Jordan. And he reached out to me recently and I instantly remembered the conversation. I know I had a lot of respect and continue to have respect for what Eric built. I remember that conversation was great and I I'm here, it's here to continue to talk to Store. I know that if you came up under that group, you must have great values and great business acumen And I'm super stoked to get into the, to into today's conversation. But before we do, let's get that motivational inspirational ball rolling with a success quote or mantra. What do you got for us?
[05:42]
Cindy Kozak
I like to tell staff, well, we start every day sort of with a family meal and lineup. So usually it starts with like a little of like quote of inspiration or a thank you and whatnot. Lately, with sort of everything that's going on outside of these walls, I like to remind people that we can control what happens in here, even though we can't always control what happens out there.
[06:05]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[06:05]
Cindy Kozak
So to make this a safe and beautiful place for people to be, including staff and guests, I think that that's a good thing to keep in mind.
[06:15]
Eric Cacciatore
Jordan, what are you thinking?
[06:16]
Jordan Ware
Well, I feel with the kitchen crew, we always, I always try to empower them and get them part of the conversation. Just as much as it's not just me making decisions like, what do we all want to do? What do we all want to make happen today? We have a kitchen lineup meeting every day too. And it's just making sure that everyone's part of the decision making process.
[06:38]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. We live in a weird time right now. Where to your point, Cindy? We can't control what's happening out there. And never before in our history as a species, as humankind, have we been able to know what's happening everywhere. We're not hardwired or we're not equipped to be able to manage that. And all we can do is choose to not tap into it and choose to control what we actually have control over, which is what that person sitting at the other side of the table is feeling, or whoever we're serving, what, what world we're creating for them in this moment, we have control over that. It's so important. And to your point, Jordan, like, we all as humans need to have a sense of agency, a sense of autonomy. Like, we can't just have a job. We need to know that we are influencing the outcome of that greater purpose, that greater mission that this thing stands for. So those two things are so important.
[07:29]
Jordan Ware
To keep, and the person standing next to you is just as important, you know, like it's. We're all, we're all in this together. The front of the house and the back of the house, it's all. It's all together.
[07:38]
Eric Cacciatore
Great way to get this thing started. So before we kind of share your story, your come up story, I love when I get people who have. The majority of your careers has been Together you grew, you came up, you, you, you know, learned together, you grew together, and now you're business partners together. I think that's really cool. Before we kind of dive into that story, where are you guys today? What, what is your operation today?
[08:05]
Cindy Kozak
Well, we.
[08:07]
Eric Cacciatore
Frankie's. Yeah, Burlington, Vermont.
[08:09]
Cindy Kozak
Frankie's, Burlington.
[08:10]
Eric Cacciatore
Full service.
[08:11]
Cindy Kozak
Full service dinner, five to 10.
[08:15]
Eric Cacciatore
And 70 seats.
[08:17]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, just about a little over 70 seats. We typically are doing between like 120 to 150 covers, sort of. Yeah, I feel like that's a good bow for that.
[08:31]
Eric Cacciatore
Yep.
[08:31]
Jordan Ware
But it's cranking. Yeah.
[08:33]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[08:33]
Eric Cacciatore
Opened in 2023.
[08:35]
Cindy Kozak
2023. Yeah, that's still be. No, 2024 is.
[08:39]
Eric Cacciatore
2023 is when you announced that you're gonna be taking over the space.
[08:41]
Cindy Kozak
Nove year will be birthday is April 14, 2026.
[08:46]
Eric Cacciatore
And I think I saw that your first year and you got the a nod from eater of one of the best new restaurants in America. Yeah, sure. That was awesome.
[08:53]
Cindy Kozak
Wild. I thought they misspelled county. It was pretty exciting.
[08:59]
Eric Cacciatore
That's crazy.
[09:00]
Jordan Ware
There's like before the article, then after the article for us, like we were like dive bombing and then the article came out and then it was just like, boom.
[09:08]
Eric Cacciatore
You can't deny the amount of influence these publications have. It's a kind of a scary fact.
[09:13]
Cindy Kozak
That they have that much influen is.
[09:15]
Eric Cacciatore
And they have that much control over consumer behavior is kind of scary too. I like to point out that like people are no longer loyal to restaurants. They're loyal to third party platforms that.
[09:26]
Cindy Kozak
Tell you where to eat in a lot of ways. And their algorithms.
[09:29]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, right. But you guys got the nod. It's helped. Thank you either.
[09:34]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, totally. Thank you either. Yeah.
[09:36]
Eric Cacciatore
So in terms of like revenue, like where are you guys at? What kind of volume are you doing.
[09:43]
Jordan Ware
Like yearly sales?
[09:44]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[09:45]
Jordan Ware
This year It'll be like 2.4 million.
[09:48]
Eric Cacciatore
Oh, wow. And that's with 70 seats. So you got butts and seats almost every night.
[09:53]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[09:53]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. And how are you controlling your cost with that 2.4? Are you coming out profitable?
[10:00]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, we are. Yeah, we are.
[10:02]
Eric Cacciatore
Are we comfortable talking about numbers?
[10:03]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[10:04]
Eric Cacciatore
What is your percent of profit?
[10:07]
Jordan Ware
About 15.
[10:07]
Eric Cacciatore
15. That's amazing. In today's market. Yeah. If you're, if you're in the black, you're doing something. But to be in two digits, you guys are doing something.
[10:15]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. I think a lot of people say 10 is amazing.
[10:17]
Eric Cacciatore
Right. And you know, I think you guys are, aren't cutting open bags and reheating food like you're doing. I mean, you're known for doing food that's in season. Working with local farms to pull that off is phenomenal. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Anything else we should know about your business? I know you guys have a private dining room. How much would you say comes from that, that part of your restaurant?
[10:40]
Cindy Kozak
We don't really do anything special up there. Initially we wanted to do like this family style thing. We had done it sort of hence, so we were experienced with it where it was a fixed price per person of like a four course dinner serve family style. But that kind of went to the wayside in a lot of ways because I feel like trends have changed a little bit and people just kind of want to order what they want to order. I think they wanted to experience the menu too, on their own sort of accord. So we offer both options up there. We can seat up to 14 people. So we'll see anywhere from six to 14 people. And I just. If there is like a larger party downstairs and no one upstairs, I'll just move them in there.
[11:26]
Jordan Ware
Okay.
[11:26]
Cindy Kozak
To get people in.
[11:27]
Eric Cacciatore
So it's overflow.
[11:28]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, it can be. Yeah.
[11:29]
Eric Cacciatore
And it can be. Do you ever do executive things up there or like, I don't know if there's a big like doctor.
[11:35]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, there's Jordan and I have an office that we share in that room because our other one is pretty.
[11:41]
Jordan Ware
The space has two levels so we are able to have like some bigger, like 30 person parties up there that we've done a few of.
[11:47]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[11:47]
Jordan Ware
So it's been really great. And. And helps drive up sales too for. But yeah, so.
[11:53]
Eric Cacciatore
So where does it make sense to start the story? Because you guys, I mean, I think Jordan, you knew from a young age you wanted to be in hospitality. You went to the CIA. You were working. How old were you when you started working restaurants?
[12:05]
Jordan Ware
I was, God, I'm scared to say, probably like 14 or 15. I started doing dishes.
[12:13]
Eric Cacciatore
And was it. Was this what you wanted to do then?
[12:17]
Jordan Ware
No, I don't think so. I think I was just kind of good at it. Yeah, I think I. I got in like so young and impressionable. But I. I started working for a guy in southern Vermont that was like a big New York City chef in like the 80s and 90s. And he just like worked me and he was, he was Swiss. So it's just kind of like he was like apprentice program. Like I was a senior of high school. I worked six days a week.
[12:44]
Eric Cacciatore
I think we should get back to that program, the apprentices.
[12:47]
Jordan Ware
Like I'M not opposed. I, I think that foundation created a worth that work ethic for me more than anything. And just being like, this profession is going to take that kind of effort. So I learned that at a very young age. It's probably 16, 17, when I was working for him. And then I went to CIA, and it just, I don't know, just kind of always going. The industry's been very, very good to me. Yeah. The whole time, like, I'd spent. There's been hardships and, you know, coming up in the early 2000s, it was a different industry than it is now, but I have no complaints on, like, everyone I've ever worked for.
[13:25]
Eric Cacciatore
Was there a time where you can reflect back where you said to yourself, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life?
[13:30]
Jordan Ware
Oh, God, I don't know if I.
[13:31]
Eric Cacciatore
Ever said that, perfectly honest.
[13:35]
Jordan Ware
It just kind of always, always keeps going. I don't know. Like, I, I really, I still love this profession, even though it's not that fun every day. I still love it even though it's, you got to work so much. I don't know.
[13:51]
Eric Cacciatore
Is the, is, is it waning? Is the love shifting with, as the industry continues to evolve, I, I, I.
[13:58]
Jordan Ware
Like it more, and I feel like, I don't know, this is, like, common with most chefs, but, like, you reach a point where, like, like the creativity hits a certain point and you, and you got your thing, and then it becomes about mentoring other people. And that keeps, keeps it going. For me, like, like, Johnny, our sous chef, is, is just amazing. I love working next to him, and the cooks are really excited, and I'm just trying to, like, get, get them more into it, you know, like, so waning. No, it just, it just shifts, you know, And I think if you talk to other people, other chefs in their 40s, you probably realize that too.
[14:37]
Eric Cacciatore
When did that shift happen for you?
[14:39]
Jordan Ware
I don't know. It. Five, six years ago, Maybe a little longer. I don't, I don't know. I mean, I think it's still in it every day.
[14:48]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. You know, let me, I haven't forgotten about you, Cindy. Pivot back to Cindy. So you, you didn't know this was going to be what you want to do because, like, you were traveling Europe in a truck. We have that in common. We love to travel. I've never been to Europe, but I would love to travel Europe in a truck. Maybe I can put my camper on a barge and send it over there. But it wasn't until you came back Home. And you, you went to Champagne Champlain College?
[15:14]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, I wish I went to Champagne College. That sounds great.
[15:17]
Eric Cacciatore
I would have done anything done Champagne College. So that's when you started working at Henna the Wit Skirts.
[15:22]
Cindy Kozak
No, actually I came back and I was in. I had a professional writing degree from Champlain. And at that time it was like 2008, 9, and the economic recession was happening. So as you can imagine, all the writing jobs dried up. Newspapers were kind of folding. I had worked at the Free Press prior to leaving to that writing obituaries and just doing sort of odds and end jobs of writing.
[15:55]
Eric Cacciatore
Proofreading, transcribing.
[15:56]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, yeah. I worked for the Federal News Service. I wrote travel guides for weird publications like Live Like a German.
[16:04]
Eric Cacciatore
Was it that travel that got you really hooked on the world of hospitality?
[16:09]
Cindy Kozak
I mean, that definitely played into my appreciation of different cultures and cuisine and, and ways of life and ways of sort of welcoming people into spaces. They do a really good job over there of that. I think food culture in Europe is, is definitely learn so much, so much. It's so deep and you know, so I think seeing that and again, being in people's homes and watching how they eat and feed each other and you know, dinner is like a four hour thing. Like you sit and you talk and you take breaks and you drink and it's just like very.
[16:46]
Eric Cacciatore
Everyone goes home for lunch.
[16:48]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, yeah. It's really beautiful. So while I didn't know that I was going to be involved with restaurants during that time, I certainly gained an appreciation for, for the food culture.
[17:00]
Eric Cacciatore
So you started working in restaurants?
[17:04]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. So I came back during the recession and I just reached out to a friend. I was getting into a fight about finances with my ex husband and, you know, as it goes. And so I reached out to a buddy of mine, Phil Clayton, who was the head chef for the Farmhouse Group in town. He worked for Judd Davis, another restaurateur who's successful. Yeah, great. And he. The Guild was opening up, which is a restaurant by the airport down there. Fine dining steakhouse is what it started out as. And I was like, can I. I just need a job. I'll do anything. I had been busting tables at the Alchemist Brewery out in Waterbury and just wanted something a little closer and to make a little more money. And so when I started there, I didn't know what I was going to be doing. It turned out I was going to be a server. So I had never opened a bottle of wine before a tableside and I had never like really dug into this.
[18:01]
Eric Cacciatore
And go back like 17 years. Now we've been in the industry.
[18:06]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Like 13, 14.
[18:08]
Eric Cacciatore
So it was 2008, 2009 when you started working in these restaurants.
[18:11]
Cindy Kozak
2009? Yeah. What year is it?
[18:13]
Eric Cacciatore
20, 26. 17 years?
[18:15]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, I guess it was. Wow.
[18:16]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, it's crazy. So when did. Go ahead.
[18:18]
Jordan Ware
It's probably better you came into it later, Cindy, because you have like a very natural way of, of like dealing with people and like a very human level. But I feel like if you're in the industry, you're entirely life sometimes, like as a, as a server that can like beat you up.
[18:35]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[18:36]
Jordan Ware
I don't know.
[18:36]
Eric Cacciatore
So you guys didn't cross paths until hen of the woods? Correct? You didn't. You weren't aware of each other until that point?
[18:41]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[18:42]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[18:42]
Eric Cacciatore
So what was your first impression of each other? I'm curious.
[18:46]
Cindy Kozak
Oh, I love working with Jordan. I, I started out as a server. I left Guild after six months. As soon as hen was opening, I was like, I'm out of here. They were going to hire me as a bus sir and I said, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't come on as a server. So they took a chance and brought me on as that. And meeting Jordan was awesome. We have a really fun relationship where we were. We're, both of us really like to joke around a lot and I think we like to keep things light. Levity was an important part of our relationship because as you know, restaurants can be really stressful. So if you can find that pocket of humor, I think we both resonate in that way.
[19:28]
Eric Cacciatore
What was your first impression of Cindy Jordan?
[19:34]
Jordan Ware
Sydney's always been like, like the, the, the person that I'm always like. Like if there's like a new server that comes in, I'm always like, go follow Cindy. Because she's the best person with people.
[19:48]
Eric Cacciatore
What made her the best?
[19:51]
Jordan Ware
I don't know. Do you? I guess she's always kept it fun.
[19:55]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[19:55]
Jordan Ware
Like it was always like, what do you want to do? Not like we're going to try to guide this experience for you or like make it into something. Like, what does the customer want? How are you gonna, like work it through? Like, it's just kind of. I feel like there can be a lot said and for a service, just when you step back and you're like, what do you want? Yeah, you know, you want a well done steak. Let's go. That's fine too, you know, 100.
[20:19]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. You know, just. I think we forget, like we try to, like, I think ego gets in the way sometimes. Like, you have this vision of the restaurant you want. It's this, this experience that you're trying to create, but that might not be the experience that people are looking to have. Like, if you just stay receptive to what they want and reverse engineer what their needs are, like, that is a much better approach.
[20:38]
Jordan Ware
That's a good way to put a reverse engineer, you know?
[20:40]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[20:41]
Jordan Ware
Start with the foundation, which Cindy builds with all the servers. Like, start that, you know, Then like, when that customer starts talking, you reverse engineer back. I know what they want.
[20:52]
Cindy Kozak
I feel so lucky to work in an environment every day where we can have fun. And I think one of the words that we used for Frankie's was it's playful. And I want to keep it playful. I want to keep it fun. I think, you know, I talk a lot about, with servers, about how we have opportunities every day to have moments of discovery with people. If someone hasn't tried Bailey Hazen blue cheese, you know, from Jasper Hill, we have some, like, just go grab some, bring out to the table and like, watch somebody light up.
[21:25]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[21:25]
Cindy Kozak
You know, like someone's never had an oyster before, an amaro or whatever it is. Like, these are all these amazing, like, products right at our fingertips made by, you know, a lot of times by these incredible local, like, craftspeople and artisans. And to be able to share that with people is just. It's so cool.
[21:43]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[21:44]
Eric Cacciatore
100.
[21:44]
Cindy Kozak
You know, it's like your kids again.
[21:46]
Podcast Host / Narrator
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[23:23]
Eric Cacciatore
I think that's a big part of what we need, like in that moment of like we. We all need to be seen. And I think there's no better way to be seen and to help others be seen. Like, it's just like hunter gatherers. We go, we bring things back, we share. This is that like primal part of us. Like, look, I got like, you're gonna love this. And the instant gratification you get when you hand somebody something or they put it in their mouth and you know that they like it. You're like, home run.
[23:44]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[23:44]
Eric Cacciatore
You're like, yes. Like, that dopamine hit is like, totally.
[23:48]
Cindy Kozak
It's a really good way of putting that.
[23:49]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, it's so much fun. So by 2015, you were the assistant general manager, and by 2018 you were the general manager for Henna the Woods. Waterbury.
[23:58]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[23:58]
Eric Cacciatore
And that was their second lo. Did they start in Burlington or.
[24:02]
Cindy Kozak
They started in Waterbury, where actually Jordan worked there as the chef.
[24:06]
Eric Cacciatore
And what. What year did you start working at Hand of the Woods?
[24:09]
Jordan Ware
I think that was 2010ish.
[24:12]
Eric Cacciatore
So you guys came on around the same time. And when. When you were executive chef, by the time you left Hen of the Woods. Correct.
[24:21]
Jordan Ware
Hen Burlington.
[24:23]
Eric Cacciatore
Well, you had the title at one of the head.
[24:26]
Jordan Ware
I was more of the chef de cuisine.
[24:27]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay, Gotcha, gotcha. And Eric was the chef. Yeah, got it. I think we had to pay homage to Hen of the woods and chef Eric Warren said. Did I say it right? I'm always afraid.
[24:36]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. Thank you.
[24:37]
Eric Cacciatore
Sorry.
[24:38]
Jordan Ware
Or maybe I'm saying it wrong.
[24:40]
Eric Cacciatore
So, like what, like, how were these formative years? Who were you when you came onto that team? And who were you by 2023?
[24:49]
Jordan Ware
I. I remember a box of vegetables that showed up outside of the restaurant. That's from Pete's Greens. And the vegetables in it were vegetables I've never seen before. Not there anything. They were like chipolinis and stuff. And I remember going inside and being like, Eric, I cannot believe what you just bought there. Like, that's crazy. Like, it was just so beautiful and it was really surprising me. It's the first time I've experienced that, you know, and like the way Eric built Hen of the Wood, Waterbury was just a very special. A special time, a special place.
[25:21]
Eric Cacciatore
Very head of the curve.
[25:22]
Jordan Ware
All the pieces, all the pieces. Anyway, like, I remember him blooming mushrooms and being like, I've never seen anyone cook like this, you know, like, that was really surprising to me.
[25:34]
Eric Cacciatore
Where were you on your evolution as a chef? When did you graduate college?
[25:38]
Jordan Ware
I think it was like 2004.
[25:40]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay.
[25:41]
Jordan Ware
I moved to Burlington 2005. Worked at a few places here in town that were. They're all probably the better places in town.
[25:49]
Eric Cacciatore
What was it Eric doing that was different in terms of, you know, the. Not just about the food necessarily about, but like, what drew you into want to stay here and grow for 15 years?
[26:00]
Jordan Ware
Oh, man. I think. Sorry.
[26:06]
Eric Cacciatore
Good job, Cindy.
[26:07]
Jordan Ware
I think Burlington is just like a special place of how the access to the food and the vegetables, I mean, that's just like, it's. The relationships that we have with farmers is just. It's just amazing.
[26:20]
Cindy Kozak
Vermont is a really special place for that. And I feel like Eric had that sensibility to see it early on and bring it to people's tables.
[26:30]
Eric Cacciatore
What I mean, you guys both were there for. When did they open? Hen of The woods was 2008, 13.
[26:36]
Jordan Ware
And 2006 in Waterbury. Burlington was 2013.
[26:40]
Eric Cacciatore
So you were there relatively early. You've got to see the evolution. What did you learn? I guess would be. Would it be firsthand or secondhand?
[26:50]
Jordan Ware
Sorry, what was the question?
[26:51]
Eric Cacciatore
I guess what did you learn through being a part of that organization? Growing, scaling and getting better and better?
[26:59]
Jordan Ware
I don't know. Like, it's. I. I remember like that was a time when like I was on salary making like nothing. Like, I think Eric paid me like 11:25 an hour on salary. But you walked in every day at 12 o' clock and you just had to like run to get ready for service. And there's something that's like very uniting about that too. Like when you like are with a couple other people and you gotta like get set up for service and then you just gotta crank like that kind of like hands on cooking is like not something you see every day these days, you know, like, it's. It's like, like, and. And maybe that was bad to be working people like that. I don't know. I loved it.
[27:40]
Eric Cacciatore
I think it Was also, you look back at, you know, our predecessors and they, they came up in an industry and all they know is all they know. Right. And it's kind of like there's like this broken repeated model that we've been kind of rinsing and repeating since 1905. And it's just like this is what we do and this is how we make it work. We don't pay a lot, like. And plus, I would say back in 2010, 2011, those rates that sound like horrible today weren't as bad back then. And you're also living in Waterbury. Like, was it the cost of living in Waterbury reasonable, I would imagine.
[28:14]
Jordan Ware
No. But even for that timing, it was.
[28:16]
Eric Cacciatore
Pretty, I don't know the market that well.
[28:18]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, it's pretty low.
[28:19]
Eric Cacciatore
So, I mean it was probably, was it market like industry standard though?
[28:22]
Jordan Ware
I, I, I don't remember. I, I do, it was, it was low and I'm not even complaining about that. Like, I actually, I think it, that kind of cooking is, is, is what made me who I am, you know, for sure, like in my work ethic. But I know watching him cook things back then when Eric was still on the line was like monumental for my career. Like, I, I, I never went back. Like, I still would do anything for Eric. You know, I would, I, when I was back at Hen Browns, I would have laid down in front of a bus for that guy.
[28:55]
Eric Cacciatore
But what was it about him and what he did for you that you'd be able to reciprocate or willing to, to reciprocate anything for him?
[29:03]
Jordan Ware
I mean, I'm not sure that.
[29:05]
Eric Cacciatore
How did you feel?
[29:07]
Jordan Ware
How did he make me feel?
[29:08]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[29:08]
Jordan Ware
But sometimes, sometimes not very good. But because he was, he was, he was a little hard sometimes, but I don't know, like, I was. You're a part of something.
[29:16]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[29:17]
Jordan Ware
I think that's what did you feel.
[29:18]
Eric Cacciatore
Like you were a part of a.
[29:19]
Jordan Ware
Restaurant that, that was doing good things. Like the community was always top of the, top of the pile. Like, you know, like everyone's, it's coming in.
[29:29]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. You're getting into like psychographics now. Like, I think we don't pay attention to the, the psychology of being a part of a successful group and how that makes you feel and how being a part of something who's something cool and being a part of that, like, is so much a part of what we need as a human being. Like what people think of me in my contribution to this and being, and hitching your wagon to that Cindy, you were there for all this too. As you know, we're talking. What was going through your mind?
[30:00]
Cindy Kozak
I was really excited. I felt like Burlington just. I was kind of newer to the food scene at that time too. And you know, again, like we just said, restaurants weren't like necessarily my thing in my 20s. I came into it lately.
[30:15]
Eric Cacciatore
Did you have a dream back then?
[30:16]
Cindy Kozak
No.
[30:17]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[30:18]
Cindy Kozak
No. I thought I was going to be a writer. I wanted to write books. I wanted. I was writing poetry. I had poetry, like shows here and so, yeah, no, it's just a different thing for me. And then I got into wine. That helps. Or that happened at hen. And we can talk a little bit more about that later. But I think in terms of hen opening here in the city, you know, Burlington that we live in, like the city needed that and Hotel Vermont being next door sort of at the same time. And Jay Canning, I think he approached Eric at a certain point and because he saw what he was doing out in Waterbury and appreciated that so much and. And saw sort of what could happen and brought that to Burlington. So they sort of run like symbiotically. They're separately financially and whatnot and. And somewhat physically, the two spaces. But I think having those two things in Burlington, like really like brought the city up in a lot of ways. Like, it made it exciting for a young person to be. Because otherwise Vermont's kind of sleepy and there's not like a ton going on for 20 year olds and 30 year olds.
[31:30]
Podcast Host / Narrator
You just pointed something out that I.
[31:31]
Eric Cacciatore
Think is really important and I sound like a crazy person when I started talking about this stuff, but like my. Our mission statement here, Restaurant Unstoppable, is to inspire, empower and transform the industry. But really I think it's the mission is to change the world. And I think that we don't realize how much influence the restaurant industry has. Second largest industry in the world. And we touch and influence so many people as young people and we can, to your point, change a community. With restaurants, it happens all the time, totally, 100%. A restaurant community can change an entire community. It's so powerful.
[32:11]
Cindy Kozak
It is one of the places, I think, one of the only places where you get a large group of people together under one roof and that is staff and guests included, that the only mission is to have a good time, to be. It doesn't matter where, what you believe in, where you come from, what you do. Like, all that matters is the cool unification of appreciating sitting down with someone you care about or yourself. And taking some time and having some good food. And that is something that like, you like, it doesn't need to be muddied, doesn't need to be muddled with like. And again, like we have the opportunity in Vermont with the farmers who we are so lucky to get to work with like, that this is still an agrarian community and state in a lot of way and agrarian economy that we are able to bring some of the, I think some of the best food on the planet, honestly, to people and, and not only feed them, but like nourish them.
[33:16]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, we're getting kind of ahead, but like, you look to the future and like where we're going and AI on the rise and people losing their jobs and losing their purpose and it's just like all like. But at the same time, while this is all happening, people are losing their purpose, are food industry is in shambles. You need some purpose. Like, why don't you go back to basics?
[33:37]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, that's a great point.
[33:39]
Eric Cacciatore
For her whole existence, our existence has been about getting food and sustaining each other. And we gotten, with agriculture, we. Life got easy. We, you know, not easy, but farming made it abundance possible. Right? And then people have more time and energy to get into the arts and to get into carpentry and like all these fragments of purpose started to spur out of that. And then it went into like the, you know, the information age and like white collar jobs and like lawyers and like. But with AI replacing that, where's everybody going to go? Well, yeah, we have a broken system that needs to be fixed. Go ahead.
[34:12]
Jordan Ware
You want some purpose? Go work with your hands.
[34:14]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, man.
[34:14]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. Yeah, that's.
[34:16]
Eric Cacciatore
I think it's very exciting. So when did you guys start shifting? I mean, I also want to like, point out any growth you had. Like, when did you think that you want to go open your own place? Like, when did that conversation start to bubble up?
[34:32]
Jordan Ware
Actually only when we came and looked at the space.
[34:35]
Eric Cacciatore
So 2023. Yeah, so go ahead.
[34:39]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, that's right. 2023.
[34:40]
Eric Cacciatore
November 2023 is when you announce it. When did you see the space?
[34:46]
Cindy Kozak
I can't remember. I feel like it was winter, it was February, around February, January, February.
[34:53]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[34:53]
Cindy Kozak
I had talked to Judd Davis actually about sort of. I was like, do you know any spaces that are opening up or anything like that? And he actually led. He told us about this space, Penny Cluse, the old Penny Cluse. And then I sort of. I came to Jordan like pretty immediately because there's nobody else who I would do this with.
[35:15]
Eric Cacciatore
So you were really kind of leading the charge on. Like, I want to go out and do my own thing.
[35:19]
Cindy Kozak
I was just curious and sort of wondering where I was going in this industry. I. You know, and if this was something that I wanted to continue, if I wanted to, like, pull out and go to wine or if I wanted to double down and go all the way in.
[35:33]
Eric Cacciatore
So, like, wine sales.
[35:34]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Or importing or. I'm not. I'm not sure.
[35:38]
Eric Cacciatore
When did this bubble up inside of you? This. This desire, this need for something else or growth or pivot?
[35:45]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Like, when.
[35:45]
Eric Cacciatore
When. When did you start having these internal narratives?
[35:48]
Cindy Kozak
I've always had a thing of wanting to be really good at whatever I'm doing. There's another sort of thing that I always think of, and it's that I'm not striving for mediocrity. I don't think anybody else should either. I think we owe it to ourselves to do the best that we can and. And push the envelope a little bit. And so in this industry, I felt comfortable. I felt like I could be who I wanted to be and have fun with people and, you know, experience something new every day. Like, change is also a big part of who I am as a person. And this is constantly changing. And, you know, every day you have a new group of people coming in for dinner, and every day you have a new staff. And so that was.
[36:33]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. When summer's heading, it's just like, batch.
[36:35]
Cindy Kozak
New vegetables every week. Yeah. New dishes, new vegetables.
[36:39]
Eric Cacciatore
Did you feel like you hit a ceiling of growth.
[36:43]
Cindy Kozak
At hen? I suppose so. There's only so much you can do. And again, you know, I think that leads into another conversation about sort of like the ceiling of restaurants, too. And they are only so big and you can only go so high. It's like, you know, we can't have a beverage director here and pay them a salary of X amount because we just don't. We're a small business and. And as big as HEN is in the, you know, small sense of Vermont, it's pretty. I don't know, it's a sexual restaurant group, but there are, like, limits to what you can hire for. So in that regard. Yeah, I felt like.
[37:26]
Eric Cacciatore
So you wanted to grow into more of that beverage director role, but there was a ceiling where that wasn't necessarily sustainable for the hang group.
[37:34]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, not necessarily a beverage director, but I'm just. I was just using that as an example of, like, sort of, you know, what. What the ceilings are in this. In this industry. Yeah. And I felt Like, Jordan and I were. We had worked together for 10 years, and that was kind of like, all right, so, like, what's next? Like, do you want to. Want to do this?
[37:52]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[37:52]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. And I think when we started down this path, too, there's so many people just came into our corner, you know, like, the hotel, like, Matt Canning has been huge for us. You know, hopefully you're able to meet him in the next. In a couple days.
[38:09]
Eric Cacciatore
How is he huge for you?
[38:10]
Jordan Ware
Pardon?
[38:11]
Eric Cacciatore
Matt Canning. How was he. How was he huge for you?
[38:14]
Jordan Ware
He just, like, right in the beginning, sat down with us with numbers, and they were. They weren't right. Like, we were looking at pro forma.
[38:22]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay.
[38:22]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, pro forma. And it wasn't until we got into, like, our accountant, when he actually built one right for us, but the one that he started showing us, like, what.
[38:29]
Eric Cacciatore
Was possible with this location.
[38:31]
Jordan Ware
Yes. And, like, you know, they started looking at guest counts and. And check averages and all of those pieces and capital stacks, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I. I think there's so many people helped us get this open, you know, like, we were just going to do this by ourselves and had to, like, navigate all of that. I don't know if it would happen.
[38:52]
Cindy Kozak
There's no way. Yeah, yeah.
[38:54]
Jordan Ware
So I'm bringing this up mostly because, like, we had a dream and a vision when we started to talk about it, but it was lots of people that helped us get there.
[39:04]
Eric Cacciatore
What was Matt's last name again?
[39:05]
Jordan Ware
Canning.
[39:06]
Eric Cacciatore
Matt Canning. One thing that I'm picking up from both of your story is that we can't do it alone. And it's always the restaurant groups that choose to look at the other restaurants in their community as collaborators on competition. And it's when you. You know, like, when Matt reached out to Eric and said, hey, let's do this over here, and, like, we can go for, like, I have, like, creating opportunity for each other, knowing your lane, staying in it, finding other people that have something that you see that could be better if you did it together. Right. Like, this person's a great chef. That person's a great mixologist. We have this real estate person over here. Like, we're meant to be in a tribe. We're meant to have the. The strength of all the individuals in a group. So don't put the wall up. Break the wall down and start talking to people and just put things into the universe. So, like, what did. So did he reach out to you? Oh, no.
[40:02]
Cindy Kozak
You.
[40:02]
Eric Cacciatore
Cindy mentioned to him what's out there to Jordan.
[40:05]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[40:06]
Eric Cacciatore
And you guys were working at Water. I started the Burlington Head of the woods at this time. So you're in. You're in Burlington, Vermont, working.
[40:14]
Cindy Kozak
That's right. Yeah. It had. It was sort of, you know, I came back from Waterbury in 2018. My mom had passed away, and I was kind of like, I need to just manage myself for a little bit. I can't really do the general manager things. And so I came back to Burlington in 2019, and there's just like a weird series events that year where it was like, there was a fire in Burlington, a pandemic that closed for three months, and then the pandemic. So we were closed from, like, July to November and then reopened and then closed in March on March 17 for the pandemic. And then things are just so scary, I mean, obviously for everybody and just like, weird coming back to work and in the restaurant, like, nobody knew how to do anything anymore. Yeah. We didn't know how to interact with each other. Like, it was just so confusing. Nobody knew the right information to give to people and sort of. We were looking for information to give to its staff.
[41:22]
Eric Cacciatore
And it was a weird time.
[41:23]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. And so I came back as a general manager right. Post Covid, because our previous one had left. So that was. Was hard. Yeah. Yeah.
[41:39]
Eric Cacciatore
One thing I want to get out of this before we start to really pivot into what it's been like to get to where you are today over the past. Going on almost three years now with Frankie's. But what. What did Hen of the woods do for you, if anything? How did they empower you to do what you're doing now? What are the biggest things you pulled in your career from that experience?
[42:03]
Cindy Kozak
For me, it was that, I think, well, a few things, like, first of which was ethic, like work ethic. I have a pretty strong work ethic, and that sort of emboldened me to have that further and dig deeper. In restaurants, there are so many different avenues as for front of the house that you are able to go down, whether it's beer, if you want to take more interest in that or in spirits or in the health inspector or. All right.
[42:38]
Eric Cacciatore
Do you need to take a step away real quick?
[42:40]
Jordan Ware
I should.
[42:41]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay.
[42:42]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[42:42]
Eric Cacciatore
Same question for you when you come back. Or do you both want to step away?
[42:45]
Cindy Kozak
I mean, I can keep going.
[42:46]
Eric Cacciatore
No, this is normal day here.
[42:48]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, sorry.
[42:51]
Eric Cacciatore
Or delivery. Just watch your step.
[42:55]
Jordan Ware
Thank you.
[42:56]
Cindy Kozak
So, yeah, sort of those different avenues that you can go down and what. And for me, I really found I took a liking to Wine and wine education. And that was something that hen was always really good about with education, be it spirits, food, farms, wine. And I've always really loved learning and school, so that. That became a big part of.
[43:21]
Eric Cacciatore
Of, so discipline, education.
[43:25]
Cindy Kozak
And then the fun side of it, like, Eric was always. I think one time he was. It was like, right the first, like, week we were open, and he was still at the pass, expediting for. I think he was there for, like, the first few months expediting before Jordan came in to do that. And I. We. They did. They did a thing there where you pour a taste of wine for somebody before they accept the glass pour. And I always really loved that. And so it was like the end of the bottle, and I was like, you know, you can just keep the rest of the bottle. And I remember Eric looking over and being like, I love that you just did that. Like, and that. I didn't tell you to do that. You just did it because it just felt right. And that opened the door for me to allow more of that spontaneity and sort of, again, playfulness with your guests. And he, like, gave me the. The green light for that.
[44:18]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. Any opportunity you can make somebody feel like they're winning, even if it's just a little. That little gesture.
[44:24]
Cindy Kozak
Why not?
[44:25]
Eric Cacciatore
Is gonna come back in spades. That little. What was there, maybe $3 in that?
[44:31]
Cindy Kozak
Maybe.
[44:32]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, maybe $4.
[44:33]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Whatever.
[44:34]
Eric Cacciatore
Like, that is a marketing expense.
[44:35]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[44:36]
Eric Cacciatore
That is an experience. That is something where somebody just won. And people like to win. They're going to come back when they win.
[44:41]
Cindy Kozak
Totally. And like I was saying earlier, like, if I had a guest who's like, I've never had an oyster before, and I was like, so I would just go to, you know, Garmonje and ask them to just shuck me an oyster real quick.
[44:52]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[44:52]
Cindy Kozak
And bring it to the table and do that kind of stuff.
[44:55]
Eric Cacciatore
That person's first oyster is tied to the memory of. Yeah, that's powerful.
[45:00]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Yeah.
[45:01]
Eric Cacciatore
The other thing, too, education is so powerful. It's one of those, like, these states, like, the hierarchy of needs. It's first, it's security. You know, you feel safe, like, your physiological needs, and you have security, and then it's being seen, and then beyond that, it's growing. If your people aren't growing, if they're not learning.
[45:16]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[45:17]
Jordan Ware
They're not gonna.
[45:17]
Eric Cacciatore
Their needs aren't being met.
[45:19]
Cindy Kozak
Totally.
[45:19]
Eric Cacciatore
We good?
[45:21]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[45:23]
Eric Cacciatore
So we just covered the things that Eric and N. Taught you or. Or at least taught Cindy were discipline, education, and it was just fun. And then the, the autonomy that Eric gave to grow and reinforcing positive behavior.
[45:36]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. Autonomy for sure.
[45:38]
Eric Cacciatore
So what about you? That same. Same idea of like, what were the. How did he and Hen of the woods and that team empower you?
[45:45]
Jordan Ware
Oh, Eric was just always empowering. Like, he. He let us just do it.
[45:51]
Cindy Kozak
We ran the restaurant. Yeah.
[45:54]
Eric Cacciatore
What did it teach you about just giving that autonomy and extending. Extending, I guess, trust.
[46:00]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[46:01]
Eric Cacciatore
To these young people.
[46:02]
Jordan Ware
It made me treat the people that. That were under me the same way as, like, I carry that through to. To people here. So I think, I think that was probably the biggest thing. Like, it's just empowering people.
[46:16]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[46:16]
Jordan Ware
You know, giving them the space to. You want to do something? Let's do it. We'll figure it out. You know, I feel like that was. That was the biggest thing.
[46:26]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[46:27]
Jordan Ware
And Eric just had like, a name too, you know, like, Hen was just growing quickly.
[46:33]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[46:33]
Jordan Ware
You know, we would do special dinners with people. There's a certain point that he wasn't very involved in that kind of stuff, but he was always willing to, like, if I want to do a dinner with a. A friend in the back, like I could.
[46:45]
Cindy Kozak
Right.
[46:46]
Eric Cacciatore
You know, but that, that's exciting for you. That gets you engaged. That makes it, you know.
[46:50]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[46:51]
Eric Cacciatore
That's so huge. Were there any other key mentors that you think should come to the conversation before moving forward? There's one person you mentioned off air that, that you said was a huge influence on you.
[47:00]
Jordan Ware
Probably Chris Goss.
[47:01]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[47:02]
Jordan Ware
Chris Cross has been amazing. He was amazing for us. And he's. He's still a friend of ours.
[47:08]
Eric Cacciatore
Biggest influence Chris had on you?
[47:10]
Jordan Ware
I. I think he. He came post Covid when things were like, really wild, you know, and it's like, like there's a lot of motions going around and he was really able to just like, listen and, and help us navigate interpersonal things or staff things that were. That were really huge and then was just like, just so empathetic toward to everyone, but to us. And you know, when we actually. We went to him first when we told him we were going to do this project and, and that was like, huge for us because he was able to help us and talk to us about the why or like just. Just little things that were just very, very helpful because it was just. It's very hard and very raw to do something like this. To make a decision to leave a restaurant and. And do your own thing. Like, that was hands down the hardest decision I've ever Made in my life.
[48:04]
Eric Cacciatore
How did he encourage you and empower you?
[48:07]
Jordan Ware
Just asking, asking the right questions, talking to us about it. Because he had opened many, many restaurants.
[48:13]
Eric Cacciatore
What the questions he was asking more.
[48:16]
Jordan Ware
Like, like, why we want to do this? You know, is it even going to work? You know, like, how do you look at some of those numbers?
[48:23]
Eric Cacciatore
What was your. Why?
[48:25]
Jordan Ware
Why? I. I think it's just one part of it is just. Just doing our own thing, but also just, like, creating a new space in Burlington that I think was really, really needed at the time and something new. I don't know if he would have chosen any space to do it. You know, this is such, like, a special space. Penny Clues was such, like, a legacy restaurant. Be able to, like, take that over. Was. Was. Was amazing. You know, great location.
[48:55]
Eric Cacciatore
You're like, what, 500ft from the main stretch of, like, the. The University Boulevard or whatever you guys call it. Yeah, go straight through the heart. Like, what, like a half mile from the heart of the. The University. The foot traffic is amazing around here.
[49:09]
Jordan Ware
Oh, yeah. This street is. I remember sitting here at this table when we open. Like, we were just waiting, like, even before construction started and watching the people walk by. We're like, there's, like, a lot of people that walk by this restaurant, so drive by it.
[49:21]
Eric Cacciatore
Let's get into, like, how you guys made it work. And you had this team behind you. You had mentors like Eric and Matt and Chris. Anybody I'm missing?
[49:30]
Cindy Kozak
Paul Sailor was one of the first people who I reached out to, aside from Judd Davis, just about the building. Yeah, Jed. Paul Saylor started American or was one of the founding people with American Flatbread and Zero Gravity Brewing. And he's just such a visionary in a lot of ways. Like a quiet visionary. He helped us out with our banking. He led us to Community national bank with Maureen golden, who was also phenomenal person to work with.
[50:01]
Eric Cacciatore
What was Paul's last name?
[50:02]
Cindy Kozak
Saylor. S A Y L O R. American Flavor.
[50:05]
Eric Cacciatore
That's a company that's been on my radar. I'd love to get them on the show.
[50:07]
Cindy Kozak
He's. He's a fascinating human being to talk to. Yeah. You might need an entire day.
[50:12]
Eric Cacciatore
I would love to make that happen.
[50:14]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, he's really cool. And again, he was just one of those people where, like, if I knew, like, when we needed to start talking about numbers, like, he was a good person to go to. To start that.
[50:26]
Eric Cacciatore
Can we get into, like. Sorry, go ahead.
[50:27]
Jordan Ware
I. I feel like banks would. Were, like. We talked to a few and it was all about collateral.
[50:33]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[50:33]
Jordan Ware
And we didn't want to put up our houses and stuff as collateral. And I remember we were talking to someone at Community National. We couldn't get through to him or he just. It was just kind of like this run around. Paul Sailor literally was like, let me talk to someone. And Maureen emailed us the next day.
[50:47]
Eric Cacciatore
And it took off.
[50:48]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[50:48]
Eric Cacciatore
We don't realize how much equity is in relationships. Yeah, sure, you can put up, like, assets, but if there's a relationship, all people don't invest in restaurants. They invest in people.
[50:59]
Jordan Ware
People.
[51:00]
Eric Cacciatore
So they're. They're looking at you like, what track record do you have? I'm banking on you and your ability to execute this. So if you can tie your name to people like Eric Hornstead or now Eric Matt, Paul Saylor, like, now you have these. These reputable people who are successful, vouching. Yeah. You know, like, that is. That is going to influence the person who's deciding on whether or not we invest in this restaurant room.
[51:26]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. Our. Our crowdfunding blew our expectations out of the water. I mean, it was. We ran just like a. A simple crowdfunding program that. That was well above what we thought we were going to do, so. Which was amazing.
[51:41]
Eric Cacciatore
How much did you end up? Well, let's go back a little bit. So raising the money, right? You had to raise the money. What was the money you. You. That you came up with that said we need this much money. Money to raise the restaurant or to get started.
[51:53]
Jordan Ware
That. That is a. That is a tough number to nail down. We. We kind of. I think we started like half a million or 600,000 at the end of the day, and we probably could have spent a million easily.
[52:09]
Cindy Kozak
That would have been great.
[52:10]
Eric Cacciatore
I think that today. Today's world that's modest to get away with only less than. Less than seven figures, you know?
[52:16]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[52:16]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. We definitely bootstrapped this in a lot of ways. Jordan and I put our own money in. I drained my ira.
[52:23]
Eric Cacciatore
What were the questions Chris was asking you to make you think, you know, ask you the why? But then he was asking about the numbers. Can you make it work? What were the things that these mentors put on your radar to, like, think of before going all in? Like you wouldn't have been aware of otherwise?
[52:37]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, it's. It's the cost of goods. And the biggest part was probably at that point was talking about the construction. I mean, construction costs had gone through.
[52:45]
Eric Cacciatore
The roof right post pandemic.
[52:47]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[52:47]
Jordan Ware
The general contract we decided on was the Second one that we had talked to and like, that was. I'm really glad we chose the person we did to do this. Peter, he just had everyone in his pocket from a. What's the word? Like from people like the plumbers and stuff. Electricians. Like.
[53:05]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[53:05]
Jordan Ware
Like he. He had all those people.
[53:07]
Eric Cacciatore
Portfolio.
[53:07]
Jordan Ware
The tradesmen, the trees.
[53:09]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Which are essentially.
[53:11]
Eric Cacciatore
Rolodex is the word I think I was looking for.
[53:15]
Jordan Ware
So I think that the construction part, I think was the. The biggest hurdle. I think as operators, everyone was like, you guys are going to be.
[53:23]
Cindy Kozak
I don't know. I don't know if it was just against. There are a lot of hurdles. It was. What were the biggest, hardest thing I've ever done.
[53:29]
Eric Cacciatore
What was the hardest hurdle for you to get over getting.
[53:31]
Jordan Ware
It was the hardest hurdle for me.
[53:33]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. I don't. I mean, the timing of everything was really challenging. We opened this restaurant. Restaurant in. I mean, we announced in November and we opened in April.
[53:41]
Eric Cacciatore
Six months from announcement.
[53:42]
Cindy Kozak
It was crazy.
[53:44]
Jordan Ware
A week late.
[53:45]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[53:45]
Jordan Ware
From our projected.
[53:46]
Eric Cacciatore
What was the biggest challenge for you? The thing that you just couldn't have seen coming?
[53:50]
Cindy Kozak
I. I mean, again, like, I think, you know, the timing of. You just don't understand, like, how everything is so intricately. Or I didn't at least understand everything was so intricately linked with one another. Like, you can't do the plumbing until you do the electric. Or you can't like put the bar top on until you do the floor, until you do the order of operations. Yeah. That was like. There are just so many things.
[54:17]
Eric Cacciatore
And did you work to manage that project or who did you hire?
[54:20]
Cindy Kozak
Peter Schmeichel. Schmeichel.
[54:21]
Jordan Ware
Schmeckle.
[54:22]
Cindy Kozak
Schmeichel Schmeckle. He was great. He actually worked with. So that came from Jed and Eric too. He did a lot of work with hen, but a lot of farmhouse, really. He built out. Farmhouse, which used to be an old McDonald's. And so he.
[54:39]
Eric Cacciatore
Old McDonald had a farm. Right.
[54:41]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Finally.
[54:44]
Jordan Ware
You know, the big one was too. Is Israel the. The architect. Like, this wasn't a space that we were building from day one from scratch.
[54:51]
Cindy Kozak
From Jay Canning, because Israel built out. He was the architect for Hotel Vermont. So again, when you're talking about these relationships, like, we were really lucky to be embedded with some really great people who.
[55:04]
Eric Cacciatore
Six months.
[55:05]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[55:05]
Eric Cacciatore
From announcement to open, like, that's. I mean, how much time was leading into that announcement that was off the record that people didn't know about.
[55:14]
Cindy Kozak
From February, again, is when we started sort of our. So we're like search for.
[55:19]
Eric Cacciatore
So February to November, so probably mid.
[55:22]
Jordan Ware
Summer things started really taking off. Like talking to Israel and stuff.
[55:26]
Cindy Kozak
Stuff and. Yeah.
[55:26]
Jordan Ware
And getting Peter lined up. We left in October and opened in April.
[55:31]
Eric Cacciatore
But from finding the location, announcing it and getting to work six months, it was quick. Is really good. And I think that's a testament to the network to having totally these people to say I got a guy, you know, or a gal and like. And having that experience and having that network, that is lubrication.
[55:50]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[55:50]
Jordan Ware
You know, and that saying of like you have to spend money to make money is like so true when it comes to building out a opportunity. Costs like you have like Peter cost a lot more than we ever would have thought he would have cost. Israel cost a lot more. And I. I wouldn't trade any penny of it.
[56:06]
Eric Cacciatore
But what's it going to cost you to. To not do it right the first time?
[56:10]
Jordan Ware
Totally. Like if we didn't have that bar and that beautiful bar and the, the marvel that. That Cindy chose, like all of those pieces together, like make people want to come here.
[56:21]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[56:21]
Jordan Ware
And that matters.
[56:22]
Cindy Kozak
That's where I think too. Like, you need to have people trust your vision, you know. And like again, we're in Vermont. We don't have. We're not necessarily like, you know, the most creative thinking a lot of times. And there's a lot of like stops. People just like don't want to do certain things or like they can't see the vision. And it's just like you really gotta work with the right people who are able to let you like, spread your wings a little bit. You know, it's like, trust me, like, I know this is a really loud bar top in a lot of ways to some people, but like, it just like, if I could see it with it working in here and like with the, you know, we had these benches made and we had the seat covers made and the colors were all picked out and you know, this. It's insane how many shades of white there are for a wall that you have to choose. And. And you know how we wanted the lights to look. And it was, it was a lot. It was really fun. But it was also like, you know, I wanted a wine well built cut into the marble of the bar. And it was like, we can't do that. And I was like, yes, you can. Like, why? Like, let's just look at it together and sort of think about it and.
[57:37]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, there you go.
[57:38]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. It was like, I'm gonna find a sink. And you all you have to do. Is it underneath. Right. I don't know, like, just pushing people a little bit and allowing.
[57:48]
Eric Cacciatore
You say you can't do something. You're right. The frontal lobe shuts off.
[57:52]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[57:52]
Eric Cacciatore
And it won't find a solution. But if you say you can.
[57:55]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[57:55]
Eric Cacciatore
Or ask how, then you start coming up with creative solutions.
[57:58]
Cindy Kozak
Well, and that sort of like, makes me think of, you know, being in this industry and the first place, it's like we don't get to say no to people. We say yes, and we say yes to almost every. As much as we can. Because the whole point is like, I want you to have what you want.
[58:14]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[58:15]
Cindy Kozak
You know, and so when somebody else is saying no, I'm like, yeah.
[58:20]
Eric Cacciatore
Even if you say yes. And like, whatever the. The ask was, if you don't hit that ask out of the park, but there's a clear effort to show them that you care.
[58:28]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[58:29]
Eric Cacciatore
Like that willing to try is will. Will leave people shocking.
[58:34]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. And again, like, why not? Like, you know, why? Just it takes. Sometimes I'm so dumbfounded. It's just like, takes a little bit of extra effort to like, make that thing happen. And I think about it with customer service a lot. Or like other people, you know, even like someone just like working a register, if someone's there to, like, help you a little bit, it will, like, make things so much easier for you. And. But it takes that person to want to make that little bit of extra effort. And like, if we just all sort of daisy chained with that, thinking it would.
[59:06]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[59:07]
Cindy Kozak
Feel unexpected.
[59:07]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. I feel like, like servers sometimes come from other restaurants are like, surprised by how much we change things.
[59:14]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Yeah.
[59:15]
Jordan Ware
Like, they're like, oh, you'll. You'll change that. Like just even taking texture off something or nuts. Or like someone wants a well done steak. Like, they want that burnt like that. That's on them. Like, not. Sorry, that's not the right wording. Not. It's not on them. Let's just do that. Let's make them happy. Like, they're paying the money for this. Let's take the ego out of this and just have it be.
[59:38]
Eric Cacciatore
You're not cooking it for you. You're cooking it for that.
[59:41]
Cindy Kozak
Right.
[59:41]
Jordan Ware
Like a great example. Someone one time asked for scrambled eggs on something and. And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's kids. That's like 100%, like a great example, though. Yeah. Like, why not?
[59:52]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[59:53]
Jordan Ware
Like, who cares?
[59:54]
Eric Cacciatore
I love that.
[59:55]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[59:55]
Eric Cacciatore
So what if you could distill it down to the biggest challenge the Biggest hurdle that getting open was. What was that struggle for you? We're only three years out right now. You know, we. With the time we have left, we got. We can go deep going into the next three years or the next. Yeah, three years. We had an hour to talk about three years.
[60:15]
Jordan Ware
Ah.
[60:17]
Cindy Kozak
What was the hardest, the biggest struggle? Yeah.
[60:20]
Jordan Ware
The construction, making sure all that was going right and getting through that. So it's a big waiting game. It's almost more like a. Yeah. Internal struggle than it was.
[60:32]
Eric Cacciatore
You went to the banks, right? Yeah, that was a.
[60:35]
Cindy Kozak
That was a struggle.
[60:36]
Eric Cacciatore
How much money did you. Did you. What was the target?
[60:43]
Jordan Ware
I. I think we ended up up spending 600,000.
[60:47]
Eric Cacciatore
600,000, right.
[60:48]
Cindy Kozak
How much did you get under that? But, yeah.
[60:53]
Jordan Ware
A little under three.
[60:54]
Eric Cacciatore
So you had a crowdsource.
[60:55]
Cindy Kozak
We couldn't even use the whole loan that we got from the bank because we didn't have enough equity or collateral to put towards the loan in this building.
[61:06]
Eric Cacciatore
So you got the loan, but then you were restricted to what you could use until you could find.
[61:10]
Jordan Ware
We got some private loans, too.
[61:12]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[61:12]
Jordan Ware
So I don't think the math would add up, but I think it was a couple hundred thousand dollars in private loans. It was a big crowdfunding. It was about 300 from the bank, and our own money we put into it.
[61:22]
Eric Cacciatore
So 300 from the bank. 100,000 crowdsourced.
[61:26]
Jordan Ware
150.
[61:26]
Eric Cacciatore
But 150 crowdsource, and then another 150 from friends, families, fools, and personal, too.
[61:31]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[61:32]
Eric Cacciatore
So a little over 600,000. Yeah, like 650. Approximately.
[61:36]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[61:37]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yeah.
[61:37]
Eric Cacciatore
Was that scary, going to friends and family and saying, give me money, or was it, like, an investment? Were you treating it like, hey, we're gonna.
[61:44]
Jordan Ware
Well, that actually comes down to, like, the community again. We got into, like, My. My mom invested, which was amazing. A good friend of mine invested in this, who lives in San Francisco, who wanted to have money in something in Burlington. And then we connected with two investors that literally, like, sat down on the table, and we're just like, how much you need? Like that. You know, it's really special. And, like, even kept the. The. The interest rate really low.
[62:13]
Cindy Kozak
6% interest.
[62:14]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. How do you approach investors? How do you handle that? Do you say, hey, can I schedule some time with you?
[62:22]
Jordan Ware
I. I think you're.
[62:24]
Eric Cacciatore
You.
[62:24]
Jordan Ware
You probably would love to hear a more inspiring story in that, but honestly, I think we had so much trust from. From those people that it was very easy.
[62:32]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[62:33]
Jordan Ware
And that. That probably sounds pretty boring, but I swear to God, like, We sat down with two of them and they literally were like, how much do you.
[62:40]
Eric Cacciatore
Why you.
[62:42]
Jordan Ware
I think we built strong relationships with them, both of us. Like, and they, they knew that we were great operators and they knew that whatever it was, was, was more than likely going to be really good.
[62:55]
Eric Cacciatore
Were they guest at the head of the woods?
[62:57]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[62:57]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[62:58]
Jordan Ware
One of them.
[62:59]
Cindy Kozak
One of them.
[62:59]
Eric Cacciatore
You never know who your future investor is going to be.
[63:02]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[63:02]
Eric Cacciatore
Treat every guest like they are your future investor.
[63:05]
Cindy Kozak
Totally.
[63:06]
Eric Cacciatore
Because they probably will be, you know.
[63:08]
Jordan Ware
And there, there was other people we probably could have gone to from that were connected with hen and we chose not.
[63:15]
Cindy Kozak
We wanted to take as little money from other people as possible because we.
[63:19]
Eric Cacciatore
Good rule.
[63:20]
Cindy Kozak
Another. Yeah. I mean, you know, we're paying these people back to. With interest. So it was like the more we can bootstrap and be savvy and sort of grow the business and pay these people back as soon as we can. We've paid our investors back half of what they gave us. Three years.
[63:41]
Eric Cacciatore
That's amazing.
[63:42]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Thank you.
[63:43]
Eric Cacciatore
Did you get any advice on how to service those loans?
[63:46]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, our accountant.
[63:47]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[63:47]
Jordan Ware
Leo O'Reilly and Shanny O'Reilly.
[63:50]
Eric Cacciatore
What is a good way to set that up to set up a repayment structure?
[63:55]
Cindy Kozak
We just gave. We're just cutting. It was two payments. One payment to everybody and then the other payment, which we are waiting to do until we were. We sit down after the holidays and everything.
[64:05]
Eric Cacciatore
And one payment to everybody, meaning all of your private.
[64:09]
Cindy Kozak
There were big checks that we cut it. That we cut.
[64:11]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay.
[64:11]
Jordan Ware
We have an SBA loans.
[64:13]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay. Okay. So that on top of the bank or is that the.
[64:16]
Jordan Ware
That is the bank loan. So that has to be first.
[64:20]
Cindy Kozak
Right.
[64:21]
Jordan Ware
Everything else is subordinate to it. We couldn't pay back our private loans until two years after we open. It has to be that far subordinate.
[64:30]
Cindy Kozak
To the sba unless you get permission from the bank to pay your private. Your private loans back.
[64:37]
Eric Cacciatore
Got it.
[64:37]
Jordan Ware
So if I. We should be paying back the rest of our private loans before they even go into repayment.
[64:43]
Eric Cacciatore
Got it.
[64:44]
Podcast Host / Narrator
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[66:39]
Eric Cacciatore
You keep on bringing up this accountant. Is it a really good accountant? How did they coach you through this? How do they instruct you?
[66:46]
Cindy Kozak
Oh my God. They were like instrumental. They still are, you know.
[66:49]
Eric Cacciatore
How did you know about this instruction? This consultant?
[66:51]
Cindy Kozak
We had been working with them. I mean certainly me as a, as a general manager over at Hen for, for years they were hen of the wood and heirloom hospitalities accountants. They do skinny pancake. They do honey roads accounting. So they're like really into flatbread.
[67:08]
Eric Cacciatore
Do they specialize in restaurants?
[67:09]
Jordan Ware
Is that they just do restaurants?
[67:11]
Cindy Kozak
They do, yeah.
[67:12]
Eric Cacciatore
And you can say the name of the company too.
[67:14]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, it's O'Reilly and O'Reilly.
[67:16]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay.
[67:16]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. So Leo O'Reilly and Jenny O'Reilly. They're wonderful people and just so highly knowledgeable of this industry. And yeah, they, they have been, are and continue to be just like so important for us.
[67:34]
Eric Cacciatore
So do you know about the nitty gritty of how you service those loans? Is it like a percentage of profit that just goes the cash flow. Like, like, you know, like you have your, your profit cash flow. And is it like a 50 of all profit goes? Is it 100 of all profit?
[67:50]
Jordan Ware
I don't think we're there yet. I would love it if we were able to get to that point that we could be like so much goes to marketing. So much goes to like and have, like, a controlled pattern to it.
[68:00]
Cindy Kozak
We're tiny.
[68:02]
Jordan Ware
We have cash flow. That's. That's not a thing. It's more like, like. Like a. Like building a model for ourselves for doing all that. That makes sense, but I don't know if it would ever get there. I feel like that's me being too particular about it.
[68:17]
Eric Cacciatore
Do you pay yourself a salary? Yeah, huge.
[68:20]
Jordan Ware
And we have since day one.
[68:21]
Eric Cacciatore
Awesome.
[68:22]
Jordan Ware
I think the biggest thing is just seeing how much money's in the bank account.
[68:24]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[68:25]
Jordan Ware
And then Leo makes the decision.
[68:27]
Eric Cacciatore
Got it.
[68:27]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. So pretty much.
[68:29]
Eric Cacciatore
So you guys opened April 2024.
[68:32]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[68:33]
Eric Cacciatore
10 months. You said to get into the black.
[68:35]
Jordan Ware
Like 10. 10 and a half.
[68:36]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[68:37]
Eric Cacciatore
What was the biggest challenge that first year getting to that point?
[68:40]
Cindy Kozak
Labor. Labor. What about was too high? We, you know, wanted a pastry program. We weren't sure exactly how to staff the front of the house. You don't really know what to expect. You don't really know what you need on the line. It was just kind of like, you know, spitballing a little bit. Like you. We know hen and that entity. And we were there from the beginning and watched it grow. So. But that, you know, every space is different too. And, yeah, we are. We run a really lean, very lean ship here.
[69:20]
Eric Cacciatore
So was the original vision of Frankie's. Is that holding up to what it is today?
[69:27]
Cindy Kozak
I think so, yeah.
[69:28]
Eric Cacciatore
But you don't. Do you have a pastry program?
[69:31]
Cindy Kozak
Jordan. Jordan and Johnny and Nigel. Nigel are prep, and we have a.
[69:35]
Jordan Ware
Cream machine that does a lot of heavy lifting.
[69:38]
Cindy Kozak
So one pole.
[69:40]
Eric Cacciatore
Where were you, like, fat that you had to cut in terms of labor? Like, how did you get that labor? What was your labor? Do you remember? Percent labor getting open?
[69:49]
Jordan Ware
It was. It was bad. It was like 50 something.
[69:53]
Eric Cacciatore
Wow.
[69:54]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, it was just as. We just kind of like.
[69:57]
Eric Cacciatore
So you're, like, pushing a 25 prime cost or, sorry, 75 prime costs?
[70:02]
Jordan Ware
Probably. Yeah.
[70:03]
Podcast Host / Narrator
And where is it?
[70:03]
Eric Cacciatore
Where's labor now, would you say if you had a guess?
[70:05]
Jordan Ware
I believe it's under 40.
[70:07]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, it is.
[70:09]
Eric Cacciatore
10 plus points on labor.
[70:11]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. We literally went from. From dive bombing it to.
[70:15]
Eric Cacciatore
I think you said 35 was your.
[70:17]
Jordan Ware
Prime cost right now. It is. Yeah.
[70:19]
Eric Cacciatore
So 15%.
[70:21]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[70:21]
Jordan Ware
From Dive bombing. It made some hard, really hard decisions, and then the eater article came out, and then we've been fine ever since.
[70:30]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. When you say dive bombing, what do you mean?
[70:32]
Jordan Ware
Just. Just. We were. We had too much labor around and we weren't bringing enough sales, which. Which is all understandable. Like, that's that's. I. I think there's, there's made me realize too, like actually coming to a point that we became profitable. That like when people say most restaurants fail in the first year, that's what they mean. It's not just like they're closing their doors. It's like we were failing for almost a year because we were making no money, just spending money a year.
[70:59]
Eric Cacciatore
They say you need two years of operational capital just to get into the black. Two years of developing people, trying things and being wrong. Because you might have this vision, this idea of what it's going to be, but the market might have a different idea.
[71:14]
Cindy Kozak
Right.
[71:15]
Eric Cacciatore
And you might. It might take two years to catch traction.
[71:19]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Figure it out.
[71:19]
Eric Cacciatore
To figure out, you know, how to get your labor down. To figure out, you know, to develop the relationships with the community where you have regulars and your 20% of customers are making up 80% of your revenue.
[71:33]
Jordan Ware
I guess that's a big part on Leo then able to like we had monthly meetings with him where he looked at those numbers was just like you were counting. Yeah. That it's just not going well.
[71:44]
Eric Cacciatore
But having that, that person that. Because neither of you. I think you both said that you're not really number people. Right. So you. If you are not one of those people, that is fine. But have that person on your team. Like, you can't not have that person on your team.
[71:58]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. I don't know how restaurants would do it without a Leo and a Jenny.
[72:03]
Cindy Kozak
I don't either. And even I think they sort of their response to us of like, we're never going to take on restaurant people. A restaurant who does not have the experience that you two came with. Because I. It sounds like it's really. I mean it is. It's a lot to manage and we are lucky to have the foundation that we had because I think we stuck at a place for so long. You know, I don't think it's common for people to work in a one restaurant for 10 years. But that, like watching that sort of transformation of that restaurant, sort of playing all the different roles. Certainly for me, from like server, assistant manager, general manager, doing the wine buying, like all of that, like just seeing all of that. Those, those things and being involved in the financial conversations and the, you know, looking at a P. L prior to this was a lot and informed us greatly. And again, that just like the, the, I guess like keeping costs in order, that was always sort of like pounded on the head with us of like, yeah, you know, stay lean, stay conscious. Of what you're spending that monthly meeting is huge. Yeah.
[73:20]
Eric Cacciatore
To check in and like, here are your goals. Did you hit them? Yes. No. Why? Okay. You did awesome. Let's see if we can shave another half a point.
[73:28]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[73:29]
Eric Cacciatore
Here are opportunities that you can exactly differently and just constantly putting pressure on that. But having that entity there, that, that accountant or that CFO or your cfo, you know, having that, that numbers person there, just keeping the pressure on, watching, watching those numbers, keeping you on track is so powerful. Powerful.
[73:49]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. Thousands of things happen every month to create those P. Ls.
[73:55]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[73:55]
Jordan Ware
Thousands of decisions, transactions, moments. You know, to be able to stop and look at one number and be able to be like, okay, yeah, labor's too high. This is where we cut is. Is huge.
[74:05]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[74:06]
Jordan Ware
Huge.
[74:06]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. What else do you guys want to talk about with their time left? Like, what is pressing in terms of your pressing but like close to your heart message. You want to get out things that you do here that you think is really special, that you can be an example of.
[74:26]
Cindy Kozak
So many things. I don't know where to start. I guess, I mean, you know, I guess we were talking about AI a little bit and whatnot and sort of what that is looking like in the future and the importance that restaurants sort of have in being like this tactile space where people are working hands on. You're working with human connection every day. You're working on a team of people and everyone's feeling something different every minute and sort of like navigating that emotional landscape. I think that stuff is really important and I think that understanding sort of those landscapes are. Are fundamental to communities and sort of what we're doing.
[75:16]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. I'm making a note. I think we should wrap up with talking about the future and what you're doing to be ready. What else should I be aware of a topic that you want to bring to the conversation? Jordan, I know that you're very active with local farms and sourcing local. I. I worry. One of the things I've been saying is it's getting harder for good people to do good work. Hard work. Because the cost of goods. Because like doing the right thing is becoming the hard thing. It is. The right thing is almost always the hard thing. But now it's becoming to the point where the right thing is unfeasible.
[75:48]
Jordan Ware
And what when we get it's not unfeasible.
[75:50]
Eric Cacciatore
I think you're living proof of that. So I'd love to figure out what. How you make that work while maintaining a 15% profit.
[75:58]
Jordan Ware
I. It comes down to cost, like pricing the menu, but also pricing in a way that's not scaring people. I think most of the time we charge what we need to charge, but there's times that. That I don't. But we still keep the cost in line.
[76:12]
Eric Cacciatore
So basically, like, knowing what the cost is, reverse engineering what that needs to be to pay your bills and being unapologetic about it.
[76:20]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, there are formulas to this too, in terms of, like, how to cost food, how to cost wine, how to cost drinks. Like, there are all those formulas that are important to know and. And health inspector a plus.
[76:36]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[76:36]
Cindy Kozak
All the way. She's so sweet. But yeah, without knowing those, like, we would be lost without the spreadsheets that we have, that I have at least to, like, keep things in line in terms of, like, booze and wine and I mean, food, of course.
[76:54]
Eric Cacciatore
And one of the benefits of being a restaurant that has a fixed menu, an annual menu, that doesn't really change. You might have some LTOs, or maybe it's seasonal.
[77:04]
Cindy Kozak
Sure.
[77:04]
Eric Cacciatore
But you. You're changing. You're adding things up weekly.
[77:07]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, we reprint every single day. It changes more in the summer when. When more vegetables are out and stuff like that. Yeah, but we reprint every single day.
[77:15]
Eric Cacciatore
So are you doing costing recipe, costing cards for every menu item? If you're doing every day, you're doing what's in the market today.
[77:22]
Jordan Ware
What cost is not extensive. We go center the plate.
[77:25]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay.
[77:26]
Jordan Ware
And have a equation for that. And then I. I base the actual manual price off from that.
[77:32]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay, so when you say center of the plate, what do you mean by that?
[77:34]
Jordan Ware
Like, if you have a trout that costs $6 per trowel, times it by 4.8, and you're at. At a number. Okay.
[77:42]
Eric Cacciatore
Charge for it and that just that factor. What about the sides? You don't. You know, you have some of that stuff's a little bit harder.
[77:50]
Jordan Ware
No, no, I think when you go center the play, it kind of accounts for all of that.
[77:53]
Cindy Kozak
Or.
[77:53]
Jordan Ware
No, it does account for all of that. So it's just an easier way. Instead of going, like, I'm gonna calculate this sweet potato and all this and this and like that. That just gets exhausting.
[78:04]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[78:04]
Jordan Ware
I went to culinary school and was doing that stuff. And, like, it's just.
[78:08]
Eric Cacciatore
At what point does your labor to figure it out outweigh the cost of actually just totally being able to.
[78:14]
Jordan Ware
Our food cost here is 30. You know, like that. That's the number that's better to look at than spending Hours and hours doing math.
[78:20]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[78:21]
Jordan Ware
You know, if that gets out of control, then we can, like, change it. Yeah.
[78:24]
Eric Cacciatore
You know, Any advice on just making sure. Like that. That dance of, like, will the consumer pay for this? Am I gonna piss people off by charging this? Like, a lot of people are afraid to charge what they have to charge because they don't want to upset people.
[78:39]
Jordan Ware
So, sorry. You guys can say for that.
[78:42]
Cindy Kozak
I mean, I. I don't think anyone's doing. I don't think we're doing each other any service by not charging what we're supposed to be charging, because it's. People are going to be mad about costs in general. And you see that, and that's okay. And we are all rightly right to have those concerns and qualms, you know, And I think there are places where sometimes I look at prices and I'm like, what is going on here? Like, I. You know, it's like, you know, the cost of a lot of these things being in the background of a restaurant. And. And. But then there are places where I'm like, oh, man, you guys should be charging so much more for this. Like, please, like, I want you to stick around. And, like, so it's. It's a. It's a funny balance with that, but I don't know. You're not. And you're not going to please everybody. And I've been thinking a lot about that when we first opened, where I was like, this might just not be the place for you, and that's okay. And it's a place for other people, and they enjoy it. And, like, you don't need to, like, write reviews of, like, I just don't like it. And it's like, then that's fine.
[79:44]
Eric Cacciatore
Right? You know, love a platform where people can leave reviews, but you can't have it. You have to, like, tie your mailing address to your account. Right. Like, you cannot be anonymous, and. And people can comment on your reviews. I would love to see that.
[80:01]
Cindy Kozak
I would love one for restaurants, too.
[80:04]
Eric Cacciatore
You can't be anonymous, and you can let people tell you how stupid you are. Yeah, like, that would be awesome. Nobody wants to build that.
[80:14]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[80:14]
Eric Cacciatore
Replace the Yelps. I read those reviews, and it's just like, oh, my God, people are so brutal.
[80:20]
Cindy Kozak
Some people. Yeah. I just. It's like. It's just silly. I. I couldn't imagine taking time out of my day to write something like that about a small restaurant that's just.
[80:32]
Eric Cacciatore
Trying to, like, reviews on review.
[80:34]
Cindy Kozak
Do something cool. The people who write an Email to me or something about with like a legitimate thing. Like awesome. I like, I will respond to those. I take those seriously. Like, you know, and because that's not to say that some of these concerns aren't legitimate and like we do care a lot about what we're doing and like if there's something like that wasn't hitting or like didn't meet the expectation because every day you try and be better than yesterday. And like I think that's a common quote for restaurants and something that like I think about every day. And so like, you know, again, like if there's. There is like a legitimate concern or qualm about an experience, like, I definitely want to hear that like a one.
[81:16]
Eric Cacciatore
Star review on something at the restaurant. Restaurant has no control over like the parking.
[81:20]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[81:20]
Eric Cacciatore
Is tough. It's like, yeah, that sucks. It's. But like do you need to kill my, my rating because of the grow up this the block I'm on. Like, what's it like when you get inside the restaurant?
[81:32]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. A lot of people complain about the sound in here and sometimes like, I mean like, I get it, I get it. Like we're doing. We did everything we can.
[81:38]
Cindy Kozak
We're still doing. We still got two more to hang. We just don't have time.
[81:45]
Jordan Ware
How's the food?
[81:45]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[81:48]
Eric Cacciatore
Anyway, so I like to focus on those struggles and how you overcame those struggles. We got to basically about two years ago after the Eater review, you're recognized as one of the best new restaurants in America.
[81:58]
Jordan Ware
Not.
[81:59]
Eric Cacciatore
Not in the country, not the county. What are the struggles been since then?
[82:08]
Cindy Kozak
I mean, there's a straw. It's every day, it's making sure people show up for work. It's making sure people are happy, people are doing everything right and excelling and that everything is looking good, everything's clean, everything's. It's staying on top of the day to day for me at least I feel like, you know, how do you.
[82:28]
Eric Cacciatore
Overcome that challenge, those challenges of staying on top of the day to day?
[82:31]
Cindy Kozak
What's do you can show up for work and, and do the job. I don't know. It's like you just my. I think think we're also trained, I think to have our eyes everywhere. It's like you. I'm walking around a dining room and I'm looking at every single table while I'm having a conversation with somebody to see like what is. What needs to happen. You know, it's like working with these programs for like toast and resi for so many years. It's like you just. I have an innate understanding now of like what to do and how to work it and teaching people that and being on top of them of what they're doing, I think is important.
[83:09]
Jordan Ware
And for us to build something sustainable that can keep going whether we're here or not takes constant attention.
[83:16]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[83:16]
Jordan Ware
You know, with. Even from the, the lowest level line cook up to, to Johnny and to everyone else.
[83:23]
Eric Cacciatore
How do you build that?
[83:25]
Jordan Ware
Stay on them and make sure you have the right people, you know, like, I think even the managers that Cindy has. Has hired for front of the house are great and they, they respect us and they respect what we're doing and they want to learn. And yeah, we have all the pieces. Like it's, they're there.
[83:41]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Our bar manager, Max Pogacar is fantastic. He's just got this light, beautiful energy with guests that is inspiring. And I think, you know, like Grace and Ryan, the two assistant managers, like the rest of the staff looks up to them. And putting people in the right positions and the right people in the right positions means a lot. You know, I think Johnny, Nigel, again, like we've also been building teams for a long time. I've been a hiring manager for a long time. Jordan's been a hiring manager for a very long time. And sort of knowing like those dynamics I think are really important too because once you have people start working for each other, you know, then like magic can happen and the other things can happen, you know, so. And in terms of like liking where you are, you know, if. How so many times I've had guests be like, wow, you guys really look like you enjoy working together. I'm like, we do.
[84:38]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[84:39]
Cindy Kozak
We really do.
[84:40]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[84:41]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[84:41]
Eric Cacciatore
It's, it's like 99 relationships. This whole industry, the world is relationships. Have you heard of Ken Wilbur? He's the author of A Brief History of Everything. And it's actually really fun that Rudy Mick referred this way. And I'm reading it now in the first place, first chapter, he talks about like he goes like super basic. He talks about like cosmos and cosmos, like the. The K O S M O cosmos and the C O S M O cosmos. Just like, like big scale stuff. But like right early on the book he talks about Hollands H O L O N and Holland is everything in the universe. The known world is a Holland and a Holland is defined as something that is a whole and a part of something at the same time.
[85:24]
Cindy Kozak
Time.
[85:24]
Eric Cacciatore
So it's literally like everything. Like name one thing that comes the. What is some like an Atom. Right.
[85:30]
Cindy Kozak
I was thinking of dark matter.
[85:32]
Eric Cacciatore
Like, yeah, like, so, like, like the restaurants are Hollands.
[85:36]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[85:36]
Eric Cacciatore
So restaurant on its own. This restaurant is whole on its own, but it's made of parts. It's made of a back of house, a front of house, a marketing team, an accounting firm. And then even further, it's made of an executive. So chef, a sous chef, a line cook. All those things are a whole on their own, but they're also a part of something bigger. So literally the whole universe is whole. Autonomy and communion. It has to be a balance between individual and communion. And it's finding that balance. And that's relationships of like, what does this person need? And how can I give that person a sense of autonomy but have them be of a part, part of something bigger? And it's that balance.
[86:20]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Literally everything in the known universe is that.
[86:22]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[86:22]
Eric Cacciatore
And it's so fascinating. I find it's so fascinating that those relationships are there and it's just that simple.
[86:28]
Cindy Kozak
I totally agree with you. And I think that that's something that, you know, I tell staff here. And because you have a lot of different roles you have, again, like you just said, you know, and there's the host and there's the busser and there's the bartender. And none of this runs without every single person operating at. At the highest level that. That they can.
[86:49]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Right.
[86:50]
Cindy Kozak
And when there's that one person that's maybe like feeling a little tired or down or whatever, like, like getting to that person being like, you good? Like, what can I get you? Are you okay? Like, I need a sandwich. Yeah, totally. Or like you need a Coke. Like.
[87:05]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[87:06]
Cindy Kozak
And, and, and bringing them up and bringing everybody up together. And. And no position is more important than the other position.
[87:14]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[87:14]
Cindy Kozak
A manager is not more important in some ways than the buser, you know, because every job is a part of the whole.
[87:23]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[87:24]
Cindy Kozak
Like you're saying 100.
[87:25]
Eric Cacciatore
And part of the. The.
[87:27]
Jordan Ware
The.
[87:27]
Eric Cacciatore
The things that. Kevin or Ken Wilber talks about this too. Is that a natural element of whole Archies or Hollands is that they are part of a higher hierarchy. You can't. Like, the known universe is everything that's a part of a hierarchy. Because you need the things that the. I hate to use the word bottom of the base, the triangle of a hierarchy, but you need all those people to, to come together, to be a. To build off of each other, to make it be at the top of what it can be, which is a functioning restaurant. Right at the peak of that is a functioning restaurant.
[88:00]
Cindy Kozak
And that's all the foundational, like sort of groundwork that we were talking about earlier of like building those relationships with investors, finding the right banker who will like work for you, you know, finding the right accountant, all of those things. And, and sort of building up from there.
[88:14]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[88:16]
Cindy Kozak
When we first opened too, and sorry not to like take the mic, the.
[88:21]
Eric Cacciatore
More talking you guys do, the better.
[88:23]
Cindy Kozak
But like, you know, we, I think a lot about like a tree structure and like you have the roots and whatnot and everything's just kind of like starting and, and this sort of like, like sapling is growing and it's all weak and weird and like you don't really know what to give it. To give it its optimal like life or strength or whatnot. And, and, and if you can give it like a solid base and some light and some water whatnot, like it, it'll grow. And it's a lot, it's a lot like a team in a restaurant. It's like we didn't really have. It's all sort of like sticky like when it starts and weird and.
[89:01]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. When you plant it, you know it's going to be tree.
[89:03]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[89:03]
Eric Cacciatore
You know how many branches it's gonna have.
[89:05]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. It could be, could be a weak one. You don't know.
[89:08]
Jordan Ware
Not to make it about numbers or anything, but like the foundational part with like raising money and all of that also comes down to like what in the business world is called working capital. That you need to have a certain amount of working capital. And it, it's, it's an absorbing amount of money. It's like almost what Sydney and I make together in a year.
[89:28]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[89:29]
Jordan Ware
And that's just sits in the account to save everyone's job.
[89:32]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[89:33]
Jordan Ware
If goes wrong.
[89:33]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[89:34]
Jordan Ware
And we're never going to touch it unless we have to. Yeah.
[89:36]
Eric Cacciatore
How much time in that of a Runway do you have in that working capital? Is it six month Runway? Is it a one year run away?
[89:42]
Jordan Ware
We didn't look at it. We have, we just have a number. Okay. It's not like, it's not like an emergency fund where I. You did, we did the math.
[89:51]
Cindy Kozak
Got it.
[89:52]
Jordan Ware
It's whatever Leo says.
[89:56]
Eric Cacciatore
So what is the vision going forward? What is the goal? What is the vision? Where do you want to be? Where are you headed?
[90:02]
Jordan Ware
I mean, we want to keep building what we're doing, you know, making sure that all the staff's getting everything they need. Hopefully in the next year or two, we, we try to do something else. We have looked at some other spaces and Stuff like that, but realize it's not the time for us, but we, we want to, we want to do something else and build opportunity is.
[90:23]
Eric Cacciatore
Is.
[90:24]
Jordan Ware
Is one of the biggest, biggest drivers I feel. Right. Mean by that, building opportunity for one for ourselves, you know, to create, to do something new and different and keep. Keep this momentum going, but also for our staff. You know, like, we have some really dedicated people that it'd be great to be able to either help them or, or. Or build something for them.
[90:44]
Eric Cacciatore
Is that investing in their vision potentially.
[90:48]
Jordan Ware
Or them coming along with what we're doing? Right. I mean, it's.
[90:51]
Eric Cacciatore
I think that's the goal is whoever can. It's about creating opportunity for others.
[90:54]
Jordan Ware
Opportunity.
[90:55]
Eric Cacciatore
And when you, when you create a win for somebody, you're also winning and that, you know, it's just creating those win wins. How can you do that?
[91:04]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, I think we, we want to put some money back into the restaurant now that we have a little bit of money. That's also important, I think, to sort of like, keep this place beautiful and keep it growing a little bit. I think I said the other day where I was like, it's like we moved into a new house and like now I want to nest in it, you know, and like, start to like, like really make it.
[91:23]
Eric Cacciatore
Like, how are you prioritizing what to invest in first?
[91:28]
Cindy Kozak
We're just starting to talk about it, but like, I think the upstairs could use a little like, love and that kind of thing. This is an old house from the 1800s, so it's like there are no level spaces and the ceilings are crooked and like, weird. So I don't know. Just thinking about, like, how to keep it maintained and updated.
[91:49]
Eric Cacciatore
I think it was Jeff Benjamin. I can't keep track of all the people I've had on the show, but he was with that Philadelphia restaurant group. Now I can't remember who. My memory's starting to fade when you start doing 1200 plus interviews. Anyway, he said just put away 5% of everything you make just to go back to investing in freshening things up. Yeah, like every five years, 5% every five improvements.
[92:12]
Cindy Kozak
I think they're important. And that also goes to show how important is to have a building owner who's willing to also work with you and help you with those kinds of costs if they can or if they're willing to. Because at that point becomes a mutual investment between the land, you know, the landlord and the. And the tenant. Yeah, we do not own this building. There's a group of people who own this Building. One of them is Jay Canning, who owns the hotel which again Hotel Vermont. Those relationships just, you know, mean are so essential. And I know he wants to see us succeed and our success is the success of this building too. And so yeah, a lot of people.
[92:58]
Jordan Ware
I feel like when we started this were talking about the landlord part and how important that was and we, we walked into a great situation. So there was no really issues with that.
[93:10]
Cindy Kozak
It was a long conversation though.
[93:11]
Jordan Ware
It was a beginning conversation. Yeah. There are some things to work out with it that at a certain point is. Lawyers get involved and stuff like that. So it makes it that part a little easier and non emotional.
[93:23]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. We didn't know what a triple net lease was and we didn't know sort of those.
[93:27]
Eric Cacciatore
There's so many variables, so many factors, so many areas of expertise that need to come to the table. Able to do it.
[93:32]
Jordan Ware
Right.
[93:32]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[93:33]
Jordan Ware
And not being afraid to spend. Sorry. Not be afraid to spend the money on that.
[93:36]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[93:37]
Jordan Ware
Like. Like our original expense for our architect was like $3,000. We ended up spending 20.
[93:44]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. It's crazy.
[93:45]
Jordan Ware
That's like one of those things that like. And the lawyers like, it sucks.
[93:48]
Eric Cacciatore
It's amazing what people will spend on things to get open like just like the build out because they think that is so important and they don't spend the money on the people to make sure that things go smoothly. To surround yourself with the accountants. You know, like I've kind of gotten some heat recently saying like if I'm opening a restaurant tomorrow, I'm not hiring a restaurant coach or consultant to help me with my operations and systems. I'm going to a fractional CFO or a fractional COO that isn't just gonna tell me what to do.
[94:21]
Jordan Ware
I've heard you talk about it. What is the fractional?
[94:23]
Eric Cacciatore
So know the. The. So fractional is basically with. In this world where technology is letting people do more with less tools like Toast. And I don't know if you're using an enterprise solution like Restaurant365.
[94:36]
Cindy Kozak
We don't need that yet because we're too small.
[94:38]
Eric Cacciatore
It brings everything to one place.
[94:40]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[94:41]
Eric Cacciatore
It centralizes everything. So now somebody who is an operations expert can use that software to do the heavy lifting. That is essentially a operations consultant. And they know how to use the software. They can now manage say 20 or 30 clients because they can do it remotely. And every month they have a meeting, kind of like you do with your accountant of like, here's your P. Ls like, you know, are you entering you know, are you doing your invoices? Are you doing inventory? Like, here? Like, how can we move the needle? And they help strategize, but they can manage it from, like, a central place because everything's cloud based today. So to have a fractional CFO for two to $5,000 a month versus going out and spending $100,000 to have a restaurant consultant for a year now you have somebody on your team who isn't going to just tell you what to do, but they're going to be a partner in and. And actually do the work with you.
[95:38]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[95:39]
Eric Cacciatore
Not to say that a consultant doesn't do the work work with you, but most restaurants today don't have a hundred thousand dollars of liquid cash sitting around.
[95:47]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[95:47]
Eric Cacciatore
Because it's tight.
[95:49]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. I would agree with the consultant thing, but I. I'll say, like, if you're like a young person trying to open a restaurant, like, you should just go learn everything you can.
[95:57]
Eric Cacciatore
Well, do what you. Exactly what the two of you did. Go work for somebody who's successful.
[96:01]
Jordan Ware
We're in our 40s.
[96:03]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[96:03]
Jordan Ware
Like, that's ridiculous. You should not open. But I would not have looked at it any other way because it's like not knowing the experience.
[96:15]
Cindy Kozak
And I think you need to have, like, a mature mindset, too, and a professionalism and, you know, talk about fun and playfulness a lot. But. And there. There's a balance with that of, like, hard work and sort of keeping your eye on everything and.
[96:28]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[96:29]
Cindy Kozak
And. Yeah, I think that is a important thing to. To remember.
[96:35]
Eric Cacciatore
Sure. Somebody just walked in. I don't know if they need help. We're casual here. Hey.
[96:44]
Jordan Ware
Sorry.
[96:45]
Eric Cacciatore
You're fine. So I'm really enjoying the conversation. I want to think about wrapping up. I kind of want to dive real quick into. I don't know if I'm assuming this might not be your lane, but in terms of, like, Tech Stack, and I know we mentioned Resi and Toast and the platform, Cindy said you're not ready for an enterprise solution yet. Like, where are you guys with Tech Stack?
[97:07]
Jordan Ware
We have Resi and Toast is. Is pretty exceptional. Our accountant is. Is huge with Toast too. Like, everything goes through Toast. Like, even you guys using Chef Tech on. No.
[97:20]
Eric Cacciatore
Is that right?
[97:20]
Jordan Ware
No, just. Just. Just Toad. I don't know what chef tech is, but Toast is like, onboarding. Toast is. Is everything.
[97:28]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[97:29]
Jordan Ware
I mean, you know, like, it's amazing what you can do. Like, Like, I don't even know how restaurants did it before that. Like, you can look at up to Date, sales numbers by the second. Yeah.
[97:39]
Eric Cacciatore
I mean, that's a perfect example of how everything's becoming cloud based now, where you can have one coo, a chief operating officer or chief financial officer that can do what they know. For a lot of people in a centralized place, I think it's, it's. I think it's good for independent restaurant operators because the technology is leveling the playing field. Yeah.
[98:00]
Jordan Ware
Spring. Spring for toast. Yeah, I, I don't, I mean, I. Maybe some really, really small restaurants can afford it, but I can't imagine this place without toast.
[98:09]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[98:10]
Eric Cacciatore
So we're getting to the part of the conversation where, you know, we talked about how you got to where you are. We really unpackaged where you are today in terms of where you are today. Anything that didn't come out of the conversation that you want to make sure. Comes out of the conversation.
[98:24]
Jordan Ware
Nothing I can think of. It's. I don't open the new restaurant's a scary, scary thing. When we, when we started to do it, like, like I said, it was the hardest decision I ever made. And we put our, A lot of our own money into it. Not knowing, like, if we, if we, if I did this 10 years ago, I don't know if we would have ever gotten in the, in the red by now or the black right now, you know, like it was. Would have that, that made all the difference.
[98:50]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah.
[98:50]
Jordan Ware
I will say that.
[98:51]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. I want to get to the point of the conversation where we start talking about the future. I know Cindy pointed out she wanted to talk about AI and what you're doing to be ahead of that, but what, in terms of, like, where you're going, where the industry is going. If we've inspired with your story, we've empowered with your knowledge and what you've learned up to this point. Transforming is like, how do we go into the future collectively, together, as an industry?
[99:11]
Jordan Ware
Are you thinking from, are you saying from a technology stance or just in general?
[99:15]
Eric Cacciatore
In general, you know, like, what is the future? Like, what are you doing to prepare for the future? How do we stop being reactive as an industry and start being proactive as an industry?
[99:25]
Jordan Ware
I think it's shifted a lot to a proactive, you know, I think so. A lot of my job is just dealing with people, you know, like, making sure the cooks have what they need, you know, which, which I really, really, really love. But, you know, it's like I, I've. I read something the other day about community, and it said that restaurants are becoming a community space.
[99:49]
Eric Cacciatore
Like that's so infuriating. Sorry. Finish your train of thought.
[99:52]
Jordan Ware
Sorry.
[99:52]
Eric Cacciatore
What? No, that just.
[99:54]
Jordan Ware
I'm.
[99:54]
Eric Cacciatore
That like, hit a chord with me. But what were you gonna say?
[99:58]
Jordan Ware
No. And we always talk about it, how restaurants are like the community space, but it's like family dynamics are changing and all that. So people are seeing. Spending birthdays and stuff in restaurants. They become like that safe place for people.
[100:10]
Eric Cacciatore
Right.
[100:12]
Jordan Ware
So it's like, I. I think there's like, a lot of people in the world are cooking good food. It's. It's the hospitality side that is starting to lose focus for a lot of people. And I. I think that's what Cindy has done very well with the front of the house staff and keeping the staff just giving people whatever they want and treating them in certain ways like that. That's what's.
[100:33]
Cindy Kozak
What's.
[100:33]
Jordan Ware
I think is starting to set restaurants apart from each other is the hospitality part.
[100:38]
Eric Cacciatore
I think that's what it. Restaurant. I would. You know, I've had this. I went to a. What was it like, the chef's collaborative. Remember that group? I think it was chef's collaborative. There was kind of like a chef meetup thing. They were doing it for a few years. I think it ran out of steam. But I went to one of those, and it was out in Colorado, and I was having this argument with a bunch of chefs, and I was like, no hospitalities. Like, the restaurant industry isn't about food. It's a part. It's an element that is a Holland that is a part of the greater thing, but really at the core of it, it's about life, it's about relationships, it's about hospitality. And the whole industry was born, like when we were called, like when people were colonizing the Americas. If you wanted to start a town, the number one thing on your to do list was, well, one, find a piece of land that you want to call your town. But to be recognized, the first thing you needed to do was to build a public house. That is the how the world of pubs and restaurants started. It's all born literally out of community, of being a hub in the center of a community. Where you got your mail, where you got your information, where you got your food, where you like. It was literally what the Internet is.
[101:47]
Cindy Kozak
Today, was gossip for the day. He's doing what? Where?
[101:50]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, Pub, public house. That's where it all came from. Yeah, exactly. Entertainment, entertainment, everything. It came before a post office or a church or anything. You needed the public house. And we've lost sight that it's really about community. It's become this. We've commercialized and transactionalized this, the most intimate thing and we made it about food. And it's really about relationships. It's always been about relationships.
[102:16]
Jordan Ware
Is that why what I said annoy when you got frustrated?
[102:19]
Eric Cacciatore
100% because somebody said it's like it's going. It's. What did they say?
[102:22]
Jordan Ware
It was more. It was more talking about how, like, as family dynamics change and. And people aren't going to families houses for birthdays and stuff, restaurants are becoming those spaces. Yes.
[102:34]
Eric Cacciatore
And that's what.
[102:35]
Jordan Ware
More and more becoming those.
[102:36]
Eric Cacciatore
It's going back to what it was meant to be. We're devolving back to like, I think but like, we need to devolve. Like we've gotten to this point, I think Harari or novel or whatever Noah Sapiens talks about. Thank you very much. He talks about like, when we used to be dependent on family, community and religion, and now we're dependent on like, market government. And there's another one, the capitalistics, I think, structure or something like that. And we just don't. We literally just don't need each other anymore. But the thing is, we will always need each other.
[103:13]
Cindy Kozak
Antithetical to what we are as a species.
[103:15]
Eric Cacciatore
It's in our DNA.
[103:16]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[103:17]
Eric Cacciatore
It's like our foundation is built on needing each.
[103:21]
Cindy Kozak
I mean, you can go so far back as like the animals, like where we. It's like they are collective. They need each other too. It's all about being able to support and rely on one another. And that's where, you know, I think very early on in this conversation, you're talking about competition and whatnot. And competition is. Is good and it's healthy and in a certain way. But in this industry, it's so much more fun to support. Support one another. Yeah. And like root for one another and like watching what other people are doing like that, I'm like, excited about that. Like, I'm not threatened by it or anything. It'd be nice to like, you know, operate at the same level or whatnot.
[103:59]
Eric Cacciatore
But like ships rise with the tide.
[104:01]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, exactly. You know, and. And all for one, one for all. Whatever three musketeer thing. Like, we're all. It. It's so much more fun and when you can 100 develop things creatively together.
[104:15]
Eric Cacciatore
So I made a note to talk about AI this will be the last subject. Anything. What we're talking about when you took care of that gentleman, was that we're at the point of the conversation. We Talked about inspiring, empowering. Now it's like, where are you today? What is the transformation? How do we go into the future intentionally? What are you doing to be ready for the future? I made a note to talk about the AI landscape. And why is that what you brought up earlier?
[104:38]
Cindy Kozak
Well, there's, I think there's also a couple of things with this AI. I noticed like a few a month or two ago, like it just showed up in, in Toast on the back end too of the pos, sort of in the admin sort of structure of it. And I had somebody approach me also like about five months ago where they're like, I want to introduce like bring AI to your restaurant. And I was like, I don't really need that. Like, I don't, I don't want a review system based on AI or I don't know what he was really asking, but it showed up in Toast and I was like, oh, this is cool. Like, I can just type in what was our slowest day last year? Like, what was the biggest seller? Like, what winded with, like, with things like that. Like it. That's cool. And I appreciate like an advanced Google.
[105:28]
Eric Cacciatore
It's going to be a cfo.
[105:30]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[105:30]
Eric Cacciatore
Real soon because it's going to be able to, if you're putting the data in, is going to be able to look at all that data and say, here's where you're headed to. Here are the patterns, here are the trends, here are things that you can do to shave a point off.
[105:43]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[105:43]
Eric Cacciatore
Have you considered this? Like, here's an area of like, it will be able to do that and.
[105:46]
Cindy Kozak
Or like, you know, make me a contract for a large party upstairs or something like that. Like then in that regard, like, I feel like chat, GPT and AI are. Can be really helpful for people who are trying to operate a restaurant and you know, don't have the relationship that we do with an accountant or something in terms of human connection. Like, I mean, no, that's never. I'm not, I'm. I feel grateful to work in this kind of environment because of that human connection and sort of what we get to do every day. I think I would say Jordan enjoys touching food and the, and the products that he's working with and you know, like a beautiful piece of fish comes in and you get to like, take care of it and give it, like treat it and work with it and you know, much like I get to hold every bottle of wine that comes in from small producers and that I love working with and like appreciate that and, and the guests who come in and the people we get to, the teams we get to work with, like the AI is not going to replace that. It just can't.
[106:53]
Eric Cacciatore
My hope is that it makes that more possible.
[106:55]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[106:56]
Eric Cacciatore
Because what's the jobs that are going to go away are the white collar jobs. Doctors, lawyers, like, like the, the people that have the special skills going to.
[107:03]
Cindy Kozak
Realize that restaurants are the best places in the world.
[107:06]
Eric Cacciatore
But, but at the end of the day, like farming, those types of things, like that's, those, those are the bottom of the totem pole in terms of like the hierarchy.
[107:14]
Cindy Kozak
How do you think it's going to go?
[107:15]
Eric Cacciatore
Well, I think people are going to go back to that because I think at the end of the day that's really what matters is I heard these stats that there isn't enough. There's more people in the world that we can produce food for. I can't believe that that.
[107:28]
Jordan Ware
That there's what, there's more people in.
[107:30]
Eric Cacciatore
The world that we are. That's possible for us to produce food.
[107:34]
Cindy Kozak
I would say, given like the current way that we're producing food. Right, that's probably true. Yeah. Right.
[107:41]
Eric Cacciatore
But how much land is. Can bear food?
[107:45]
Cindy Kozak
A lot in the United States.
[107:47]
Eric Cacciatore
I grew up in New Hampshire. Right. But like, I just, I really struggle believing that like, like if, if we people prioritize, if all of our energy went into producing holistic good food and rebuilding topsoil and like, you know, regenerative farming, if that became a priority, you're telling me that there's not enough land in this country to feed the people.
[108:09]
Jordan Ware
I mean, that's the beauty of this area.
[108:11]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[108:12]
Jordan Ware
You know, there's like the Intervals center that's probably less than a mile that way that has multiple farms in it that we buy from that. That like literally like they. Farmers are still delivering it to the door.
[108:26]
Eric Cacciatore
I think Vermont is an outlier that needs to be.
[108:29]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, I agree. We are the, we should be sort of the, the North Star for sustainability in food. I think Vermont is an exceptional place where you just have access to the best and it's all organic. I mean, it's very rare that we've. There aren't many farms here that are using like pesticides or things like that. The soils are taken care of, the people who work on the farms are taken care of.
[108:57]
Eric Cacciatore
But the community, the culture, there's a fundamental culture of people that support that and that's what has to change.
[109:03]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[109:03]
Eric Cacciatore
Society has to priorit, prioritize.
[109:06]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. Grocery store, like the City Market Co Op. Like, it's all like, you can buy local food at the grocery store. I feel when I go home to Detroit, like, I don't see that in the grocery stores there it's not even a thought in people's minds, which I'm like, that's one of the reasons that brought me to Vermont in the beginning was I was, I, I saw that and. Or maybe it like, kept me here because I was like, these, this is incredible. These food systems are just like, I'm healthier, I feel better.
[109:36]
Eric Cacciatore
The community's happier and healthier because they have purpose and they're seen and valued for what they contribute.
[109:41]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[109:41]
Jordan Ware
And they come out and support them here, like, or go to their farm stands and support.
[109:45]
Eric Cacciatore
How cool is that as a farmer that you can go to a restaurant and see the full circle.
[109:50]
Jordan Ware
Do the farmers.
[109:51]
Cindy Kozak
So cool in this town. That's the best.
[109:53]
Jordan Ware
Are the heroes.
[109:54]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[109:55]
Jordan Ware
Like, they are the ones that, that everyone wants to hang out with.
[109:58]
Eric Cacciatore
So this is, this is conscious capitalism. This is why I think what we should all be striving for. And I think I can be a tool to help us achieve this. The thing that scares me is if, if all people tomorrow decide to use one AI platform.
[110:10]
Cindy Kozak
Platform.
[110:11]
Eric Cacciatore
Because then absolute power corrupts absolutely. Who gets access to that data? Who's controlling that data?
[110:16]
Cindy Kozak
Right.
[110:17]
Eric Cacciatore
Who's. If you start paying this company, are they going to be able to influence.
[110:20]
Podcast Host / Narrator
That data a little bit?
[110:21]
Eric Cacciatore
To sway in the direction of 100? So I think it has to be very. As we go forward, we have to be very careful about fragmenting the. Like, we can't put all of our eggs into one basket.
[110:33]
Cindy Kozak
Right.
[110:33]
Eric Cacciatore
And historically, that's what happens with technology.
[110:37]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[110:37]
Eric Cacciatore
Is that there's one clear leader. There's a number one. Number one does twice as much business as number two and three times as much business as number three.
[110:45]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah. When you put profits over people, you got some big problems. And I don't. You know, I think again, in Vermont we're very lucky to have a conscious community who are all happy to live here. It's not like an easy place to live a lot of times because of the winters and, and whatnot. Um, and there's not like a ton going on in Vermont, so it's like you gotta, like, really find your interests and, and, and dig in. But I, like, I, I want to live in a community like, like this one. And I hope that, you know, like, other people who come to visit see that and like, feel that love and that's another part of, like, this, Frankie's too. Is that, like, one of the reasons why we built this? Because we want to, we want to be a part of building the city and community that we want to live in. And I think that sort of personal, like, passion that goes into that is, is something that keeps us going every day too.
[111:45]
Eric Cacciatore
Well, thank you so much for being people who are building community and putting values ahead of less important things. This has been a lot of fun. There's a reason why this, this podcast is two hours long. Because it's just fun to kind of mean or go.
[111:59]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, you kind of get in a groove with, with it.
[112:01]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[112:01]
Jordan Ware
Right.
[112:01]
Eric Cacciatore
You guys are great. I do have a couple questions I wrap up every episode with. What is one thing you've done recently that has really moved the needle has been maybe it's an investment in a software or practice or something. You started doing differently. That's really kind of helped continue to move in the right direction.
[112:21]
Cindy Kozak
I don't know.
[112:25]
Jordan Ware
I, I don't know if there's one thing. I think it's, it's probably mostly that we're here all the time. Is that, is that an appropriate answer?
[112:32]
Cindy Kozak
I think if that's what comes to mind. Yeah, I know.
[112:35]
Jordan Ware
I think the fact that we're still owner operators and here five days a week, I mean, we have an office day, but if we're working our full schedule that week, it's, we're here four nights a week.
[112:46]
Eric Cacciatore
Let me reframe the question. What is one thing about your business? A value process, a system that's uncommon and makes you unstoppable.
[112:55]
Cindy Kozak
I really think it's a lot of the care that we are constantly putting back into the practices here. And it's not just talking about it. It's making sure that it's happening every day. And again, like, maybe that goes to what you're saying is just being here, keeping an eye on it and keeping sure that our hearts are in it too. And, and that creativity and the managers.
[113:18]
Jordan Ware
That are below us and the staff, like, keeping, keeping them engaged and on it.
[113:22]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[113:22]
Eric Cacciatore
The mission statement is sorry.
[113:25]
Jordan Ware
And in it, you know, like, they're, they're so dedicated and we, so, I mean, that's the part that, that's like so much gratitude grows from, from those pieces.
[113:36]
Eric Cacciatore
The mission statement is to change the world through inspiring, empowering, and transforming the industry. So how have you personally transformed. How are you better people today than the people you were when you got started in this industry?
[113:47]
Jordan Ware
Better people? I, I, I, I Feel like I. I have again, just going to the gratitude. The gratitude to the community and everyone. I feel like I've become less judgmental or not judgmental is whatever, like, critical of other restaurants, more appreciative of all the other restaurants.
[114:08]
Cindy Kozak
That's cool.
[114:09]
Jordan Ware
You know, like, instead of going to a restaurant being like, oh, this is too salty, or something that I would have done 10 years ago, it's more like, yeah, like, this could have been better. Like, what. What can I take from it? And just.
[114:20]
Eric Cacciatore
Just.
[114:20]
Jordan Ware
Yeah, it's not being as critical and more supportive of all those people and. And realizing anyone that's in this industry or start something or continues to be in it is. Is a success.
[114:32]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[114:33]
Jordan Ware
In its own capacity. Any restaurant that can just keep going and. And right now is succeeding. You know, whether you're. You're making a lot of money or not, it doesn't really matter. Like, if you're. You're being good at this community and. And to your staff and all those pieces, like, it's. Yeah, man. You know, like. Like you're doing it.
[114:54]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[114:54]
Eric Cacciatore
You know, is what I'm hearing compassion for the others who are trying to do what you're doing because, you know, it's not easy.
[114:58]
Jordan Ware
Totally. Yeah.
[115:02]
Eric Cacciatore
This is a doozy. I don't know how you guys want to handle this. You can each give me three of your own or share three things, but if you got the news, you'd be leaving this world tomorrow. Tomorrow, all the. The memories of you, your work, and your restaurants would be lost with your departure. With the exception of three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for the good of humanity and your legacy. What those three pieces of wisdom be.
[115:24]
Cindy Kozak
Care about what you're doing.
[115:27]
Eric Cacciatore
One.
[115:30]
Cindy Kozak
Regenerate the positive encouragement to other people and make sure that that's going back into your community. Two, whatever that was, and I. Don't be afraid.
[115:46]
Eric Cacciatore
Three, just go for it. Do you want to add to that.
[115:50]
Cindy Kozak
Oh, I said them all for me.
[115:51]
Eric Cacciatore
Or do you want your three of your own? You can add up to three more.
[115:58]
Jordan Ware
When I. I texted my mom a picture of. Sorry, I might cry saying this. A picture of this. And her response was, I'm really proud of all of your success, but I'm more proud that you're a mentor. And that hit really hard, you know, because, I mean, this industry is just, like, sometimes you can just, like, you just drive yourself in the ground sometimes. And I mean, the. The fact that staff can still come in and be excited, enthusiastic, keeps me going and, you know, like, yeah, like how Johnny, like, he just like. Like sometimes I'm, like, kind of like banging my head against the wall, and then he's just, like, texting. Just like. I'm so pumped right now. I'm making pasta on a Sunday by myself. Listen, like. Like, it's just like. God, it's like. It just makes you feel really good and keeps it all going.
[116:47]
Eric Cacciatore
Relationships.
[116:48]
Jordan Ware
Yeah.
[116:48]
Eric Cacciatore
That's what it's all about. It's that simple and it's that hard because relationships are one of the hardest things in the world.
[116:53]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[116:54]
Eric Cacciatore
You know, but we can only manage so much. So the fewer. More impactful relationships, the better.
[116:59]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah.
[117:00]
Eric Cacciatore
This has been a lot of fun. I like to find all my future guests, majority of my future guests, by letting the industry refer me to who I. They think I should talk to. So who do you respect and admire in the industry? Who's somebody that you think has a story, who should be made an example of, who needs to be made an example of? Who is that for you? You can't think of just one? I'll take multiple.
[117:20]
Jordan Ware
You want to go first?
[117:22]
Cindy Kozak
I definitely think Paul Sailor should be. You should chat with him. He's awesome.
[117:26]
Eric Cacciatore
I'd love to make that happen.
[117:27]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, I can connect you guys.
[117:29]
Eric Cacciatore
Please.
[117:29]
Cindy Kozak
Thank you. I don't know who else you think.
[117:32]
Jordan Ware
Yeah. Paul Sar. Invests a lot. They have their own investment company that invest a lot in. In this city.
[117:38]
Eric Cacciatore
Has he ever invested in a podcast?
[117:40]
Jordan Ware
In a podcast? He may. I don't know.
[117:43]
Cindy Kozak
Who knows? Emotionally.
[117:46]
Jordan Ware
I. I would say Chris Goss. I. I think he. He came at a time that I. I really needed someone like that in my life, and it. It just kept. Kept me going in it.
[117:58]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah. You know, well, I'm gonna be connecting with Chris tomorrow morning. Pretty stoked about that. You put him on my radar before we were able to sit down here today, so I'm gonna make that happen. I'd love to get Paul on the show. Did you want to mention anybody, Cindy, before we wrap up? I don't know if you. Did you say. Did you say Paul?
[118:12]
Cindy Kozak
I did, yeah. Yeah, Never mind. Well, I think Jake Hanning, too, is a. Like, an amazing person and what he's done for this city, really, I think he's always a quiet investor in. In the community.
[118:27]
Eric Cacciatore
He owns restaurants, too.
[118:29]
Cindy Kozak
He not. I mean, he's an. An investor in restaurant. He invested in Honey Road. He was an original investor in hen. He built Hotel Vermont. And it's just if you're talking about numbers and like, you know, the importance of taking a bet on someone. He's really good at that.
[118:48]
Eric Cacciatore
So that was Matt.
[118:50]
Cindy Kozak
Matt Canning is his son. Having the two of them on would actually be really fun.
[118:54]
Eric Cacciatore
Okay, so wait, Matt is his son?
[118:56]
Cindy Kozak
Jay Canning.
[118:57]
Eric Cacciatore
Jake. J J. Yeah. Matt.
[119:00]
Cindy Kozak
Jay and Matt Canning.
[119:01]
Eric Cacciatore
Chris, look out. I'm coming after you guys. I'd love to get you on the show. And how can we connect with you if we really enjoyed today's conversation? If we are want to come eat at your restaurant? Social handles emails. Anything you're willing to put out into the universe. What's the best way to connect?
[119:17]
Cindy Kozak
Yeah, our Instagram we're pretty active on. It's really Jordan and I who run it together. It's Frankie's vt, like Vermont. And then our emails and Cindy C I N D I frankievt.com and our.
[119:31]
Jordan Ware
Our emails or sorry, our websites. Frankie's vt.com.
[119:34]
Eric Cacciatore
Yeah, I just can't say thank you enough for making time for me today to sit down. Let me ask awkward questions. When we first started talking, I came out of the gates. I told Jordan. I was like, what? I asked, I think straight out of the gates, like, what are your percent profit and prime costs? And it can be weird. And, you know, you guys have been very open on us. The reason why I ask these questions is because I want to make sure the people that I get on the show are willing to get vulnerable and willing to open up and willing to share here because I think we have to if we're going to move the industry forward. And you've been more than gracious. Thank you for allowing me to be rude and ask these intrusive.
[120:06]
Cindy Kozak
Not at all.
[120:06]
Eric Cacciatore
It's. It's been a lot of fun.
[120:08]
Jordan Ware
There's a lot to be scary about. But I can. I can say if you are thinking about opening a restaurant, but, like, if we can do it, anyone can. It's really about getting the right people in your corner and you'll learn those numbers. You can. You can build a plane.
[120:20]
Eric Cacciatore
Thank you for opening your doors to me. It's been super fun and grateful to have. I can't do what I do without people like you, so thanks for making it possible.
[120:28]
Jordan Ware
Thank you.
[120:28]
Eric Cacciatore
There is no questioning. You are unstoppable. Cheers.
[120:32]
Cindy Kozak
Cheers. Thanks.
[120:34]
Podcast Host / Narrator
There's another episode wrapped up here at restaurant Unstoppable.
[120:37]
Eric Cacciatore
Special thanks to our guest today, Jordan Ware and Cindy Kozak. If you guys enjoyed this one and want to connect with Cindy and Jordan.
[120:45]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Then there will be live for coffee with Eric on the 2023 of February 2 23. And during this conversation, Jordan and Cindy were talking about Chris Goss and his impact on them as a mentor and.
[121:01]
Eric Cacciatore
He was actually my next guest. So I actually spoke to Chris Goss.
[121:05]
Podcast Host / Narrator
The next day and he will also be live on 223 of February. So be sure to check out Monday's episode. As you're listening to this, I am in Mississippi. Mississippi.
[121:15]
Eric Cacciatore
I am making my way back to Texas to wrap up some loose ends.
[121:19]
Podcast Host / Narrator
From my last trip. And then I'm making my way back.
[121:21]
Eric Cacciatore
East along the Gulf Coast.
[121:22]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Where I end up exactly, I don't know. But I'm listening to you, who are some badasses in the Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia.
[121:31]
Eric Cacciatore
Florida, Panhandle, Alabama markets. That's where I'm heading.
[121:36]
Podcast Host / Narrator
And I'm always looking for a place to crash.
[121:38]
Eric Cacciatore
So if you have a a parking lot in a safe neighborhood or a.
[121:42]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Backyard or any recommendations on where to park? My camper always looking for a peaceful place to rest my head while I travel. And I'm also looking for leads, too. Anybody out there you think needs to.
[121:52]
Eric Cacciatore
Be made an example of?
[121:53]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Put them on our radar.
[121:54]
Eric Cacciatore
All right, guys, until next time. Peace out.