ReThinking with Adam Grant – Brené Brown on Courageous Leadership

Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Adam Grant (TED)
Guest: Brené Brown

Episode Overview

This episode features a vibrant, insight-packed conversation between organizational psychologist Adam Grant and renowned researcher and storyteller Brené Brown. Held as part of the “Authors at Wharton” series, the discussion is anchored in Brené's latest book, Strong Ground, and explores themes of courageous leadership, vulnerability, operationalizing values, and effective ways leaders and aspiring leaders can foster performance by connecting genuinely with people. The candid, often humorous exchange includes practical advice, memorable anecdotes, and sharp critiques of common leadership myths.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Shift from “Knower” to “Learner” Leadership

[03:23 - 04:22]

• Brené on Joyful Learning: She notes that inquisitiveness and the pursuit of mastery are the most joyful, uniquely human endeavors—that “courage is being a learner, not being a knower.”
• Quote:

  “What I’m looking for are candidates who have exquisite questions and are really hungry to solve the problem.” – Brené Brown (03:12)

2. Asking Great Questions—The Heart of Leadership

[04:53 - 07:18]

• Grounded Theory Roots: Brené draws from grounded theory research, emphasizing “spill questions” that surface core concerns rather than assumed ones.
• Key Practice: Spend significant time in any organization just listening and inquiring about what truly keeps leaders up at night.
• Quote:

  “So if I go into an organization...I’ll just look at a CEO and say, ‘What’s on your heart and mind? If you sit up straight at 4:00 a.m., what are you worried about?’ And then that’s what I’m trying to resolve.” – Brené Brown (06:00)

3. The Prerequisite of Caring and Connecting

[08:29 - 10:44]

• Universal Lesson: Genuine care and human connection with team members are “irreducible prerequisites” for courageous leadership and sustainable performance.
• Military Comparison: Brené shares the military standard—if a leader can’t care for and connect with their troops, either the leader or troops will be moved.
• Quote:

  “If you do not care for and are able to connect with the people you lead, you will never see performance, period.” – Brené Brown (01:33 & 08:37)

4. Practical Scripts: Managing Up and Differentiating Yourself

[10:44 - 13:47]

• How to Align with Your Boss: Brené models a script for clarifying expectations, using ‘playback’ to confirm understanding, and then explicitly seeking permission to lead in one’s own way.
  • “Can I play back what I think you’re saying?...I want to ask you one thing. I have a way to win with my team…I need permission to lead my team.” (09:36)
• The Power of Playback: She likens this “playback” to FBI negotiation techniques (a nod to Chris Voss’s “That’s right” moment), emphasizing that humans are “hardwired to be seen and heard.” (12:05)

5. Core Values: “Not What You Care About, But What You Sacrifice For”

[16:48 - 21:16]

• Adam's Epiphany: He now defines values not just by what we care about, but “what we sacrifice for.”
• Brené’s Process:
  • Narrowing down to two core values is essential—they are the “home base and fire for everything else.” (19:04)
  • Values must be operationalized into daily behaviors.
  • Brené’s Two Core Values: Faith & courage.
• Quote:

  “I have to find God in everybody’s face. I am willing to sacrifice a lot of things, including my self-righteousness, for my values.” – Brené Brown (19:04)

6. Operationalizing Values: The Four Courage Skills

[21:16 - 22:56]

1. Living into your values.
2. Rumbling with vulnerability—managing uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.
3. Building trust (including self-trust).
4. The ability to reset—resilience after failure/disappointment.

• Order Matters: Teach values first so people see why vulnerability is non-negotiable if they want to live their values.

7. Vulnerability, Courage, and Meaning

[23:08 - 24:25]

• Brené’s “Why” Ladder: Courage (from “cur”, meaning heart) is about telling your story honestly, which makes life meaningful.
• Quote:

  “The original definition of courage was to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart. We are nothing without our story.” – Brené Brown (23:16)

8. Translating Values Into Actionable Behaviors

[25:07 - 26:09]

• Don’t Talk About People, Talk To Them: For Brené, a behavior that upholds courage is refusing to gossip—having direct conversations instead.
  • “As a leader, instead of shit talking you, and I’m frustrated, I’m going to get unfrustrated first and then I’m going to talk directly to you.” (25:19)

9. “Here’s the Story I’m Making Up” – Checking Our Narratives

[26:21 - 31:44]

• Neurobiology of Story: We’re wired to create safe/unsafe stories in ambiguous situations. Surface the narrative you’re inventing and check it with the other person.
  • Practical Example:
    • “The story I’m making up is something happened in that meeting that really pissed you off…” (29:09)
• Vulnerability Lowers Defenses: Naming your anxiety about a conversation helps create an authentic, open exchange.
  • “I’m a little anxious about talking to you about this, but you’re important to me...” (30:51)
• Tailoring Language: Use relational awareness to avoid triggering defensiveness.

10. Embodiment, Self-Awareness, and the Paradox of Values

[33:06 - 34:39]

• Feel Your Values: Brené advocates journaling/managing by reflecting on bodily cues—“feelings” start in the body, and energy levels shift based on alignment or misalignment with one’s values.
• Quote:

  “In my values, very difficult but in some way energy-giving. Outside of my values, on the surface easier, but absolutely depleting.” – Brené Brown (34:20)

11. Lightning Round — Candid Takes

[36:36 - 41:33]

• Dream Dinner Party: Her family, not celebrities.
• Worst Career Advice/Executive Presence: Dismisses “executive presence” as code for exclusion and conformity:

  “Zero interest in looking, acting, behaving like the people who built the tables I’m not supposed to be at.” (37:51)

• Changing Her Mind: Acknowledges needing boundaries with “founder energy” to avoid burnout and micromanagement—mission clarity matters more than being in control.
• Delegation vs. Control: Productive challenge signals trust, micromanagement signals distrust. Founders must learn to provide context and clarity, then let go.

12. Boundaries, Empathy, and Reciprocity

[41:43 - 43:36]

• Healthy Help vs. Enmeshment: Recognize the difference between reciprocal friendship and codependent caregiving. Cognitive empathy (understanding) is healthier than affective (feeling everything).
  • “If you primarily play the role where you’re caregiving and taking care of folks, then that’s not about the people you’re hanging out with. That’s hanging out with yourself a little bit and figuring out that’s not the only value you bring.” (43:16)

13. Vulnerability: Trend vs. True Practice

[43:38 - 45:21]

• Lip Service: Warns that while “vulnerability” is trendy, actual vulnerability—especially that which persists through fear and avoids self-protective armor—is still rare and easily faked.
  • “You can get good performance using fear and shitty behavior for a very short amount of time. But then fear has a very short shelf life because our nervous systems can’t handle it for a long period of time…” (45:11)

14. Sports Metaphors: “Tush Push” and Leadership

[45:59 - 47:15]

• The Tush Push Play: Brené uses this football play as a metaphor for the coordinated, values-driven pressure teams can apply when everyone is aligned and moving together.
  • “Imagine being on a team with 10 people who are grounded in their values, grounded in a clear mission…with a slight temporal awareness against the competitors, pushing at the same time. That’s freaking exciting.” (46:27)

Memorable Quotes

• “Playing not to lose is always losing.” – Brené Brown (07:18)

• “You’re really good at contextualizing in imper. We’ve worked on this.” – Brené Brown, to Adam Grant (11:19)

• “That productive challenge is a function of trust. Micromanagement is a function of distrust.” – Brené Brown (39:28)

• “What gets in the way of courage is armor. How do we self-protect when we're in fear?” – Brené Brown (44:04)

• "If I was hiring for one quality [in leadership], it would be self-awareness." – Brené Brown (33:51)

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• Brené breaks down how she asks transformative questions in organizations: [04:53]
• On how to “manage up” with courage and clarity: [08:29, 10:44]
• Adam and Brené riff on “playback” and the power of ‘That’s right’: [12:05]
• Defining and operationalizing values — from theory to daily practice: [16:48–22:56]
• Lightning round on dinner party, bad career advice, and “executive presence” critique: [36:33–38:14]
• Audience question about boundaries and the dangers of enmeshment: [42:08–43:36]
• Debate on the “Tush Push” football play as a metaphor for leadership: [45:59–47:15]

Language & Tone

The conversation is open, candid, jargon-busting, peppered with humor and mutual respect. Both speakers use down-to-earth language, offering clear real-world scripts and accessible metaphors. Their banter and occasional teasing add authenticity and warmth.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Courageous leadership requires willingness to connect, seek the real core concerns, and operate from a place of genuine care.
• Real values show up in what we’re willing to sacrifice—and clarifying, operationalizing, and repeatedly revisiting these values is essential for authentic leadership.
• Playback, vulnerability, and candid “here’s the story I’m making up” conversations are transformational tools for connection, trust, and performance.
• Self-awareness, especially as embodied experience, underpins all of the above.
• Leadership myths like “executive presence” are ripe for disruption; true effectiveness means building trust and clarity, not merely conforming to outdated norms.

Further Listening

Those interested in further insights from Brené can check out her own podcast, Dare to Lead, or Adam Grant’s previous interviews with a diverse range of thought leaders. For practical tools, consult Brené’s new book, Strong Ground, and Adam Grant’s work on motivation and values.