Dad brain with neuroscientist Darby Saxbe

Summary

Podcast Summary: ReThinking with Adam Grant

Episode: Dad brain with neuroscientist Darby Saxbe

Date: June 16, 2026
Host: Adam Grant
Guest: Dr. Darby Saxbe

---

Episode Overview

In this Father’s Day special, Adam Grant sits down with Dr. Darby Saxbe, a clinical psychologist and neuroscientist at USC, to discuss her new book "Dad Brain." The episode delves into the science behind how fatherhood changes men’s brains and bodies, drawing parallels and contrasts to what’s been learned about "mom brain." They explore the biological, psychological, and societal impacts of active fatherhood, dispel gender myths, and discuss policy changes that can help support fathers—and families—through the profound transition into parenthood.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Science of “Dad Brain”

• Male brains change during early fatherhood—if men are actively involved in caregiving.
  • Dr. Saxbe’s research shows that men’s brains undergo changes similar in direction, but less intense, compared to mothers.
  • “The more men…spend as a primary caregiver, the more we see changes in their brains.” – DS [06:07]
• Not simply becoming a father, but engaging in hands-on caregiving, triggers these neurological transformations.
  • “It’s not becoming a father, it’s becoming a caregiver that drives these effects.” – AG [06:29]

Rethinking "Mom Brain" and "Dad Brain" (03:33)

• “Mom brain” is often maligned, but research finds it’s an adaptive focusing of attention and memory on things salient to parenting.
  • “It actually sharpens their memory and attention…it’s becoming more selective.” – DS [03:33]
• Dr. Saxbe calls for reclaiming both terms as markers of neural adaptability and superpowers in caregiving.

Gender Differences in Parental Brain Changes (09:32)

• Both moms and dads show reductions in gray matter after becoming parents, interpreted as adaptive streamlining for parenting tasks.
  • In moms, these changes occur in both cortical (higher-order thinking) and subcortical (emotion, gut feelings) areas.
  • In dads, changes are “smaller and more variable,” primarily in the cortex.
    • “The dads were really showing just changes in those higher order brain regions.” – DS [09:32]

Specialization, “In-group” Bias, and Parenting (10:50)

• There’s some evidence of an “in-group” bias—parents become more focused on the needs of their immediate family after childbirth.
  • “We do know…there’s this sort of preferred in group bias that happens when we become parents…” – DS [10:50]

Do Babies’ Gender or Social Expectations Make a Difference? (12:19)

• Research doesn’t show strong evidence (yet) that having a boy vs. a girl changes fathers' brains, though there are some hormonal differences.
  • “Fathers of boys had higher testosterone prenatally and less of a drop in testosterone after birth.” – DS [17:51]
• They discuss the “daughter effect,” with evidence that men with daughters may become more empathetic and supportive of women’s issues.

Physical Changes in Fathers: The “Dad Bod” Science (18:58)

• Testosterone levels often decline in men after they become fathers, observed across species.
• Weight gain ("dad bod") is linked to hormonal shifts, not just changes in eating habits or activity.
  • “It’s probably about hormones.” – DS [19:34]
  • Lower T levels and possible increases in prolactin may be adaptive in helping nurture infants.

Costs, Risks, and the Societal Need for Support (23:27)

• The same neural adaptations that foster bonding and engagement can also heighten risk for depression, anxiety, and poor sleep in fathers.
  • “It’s an indicator that caregiving is costly, it’s draining, it’s isolating…it’s taxing.” – DS [23:27]
  • Solution: Supportive public policy (like paternity leave), community networks, and societal reframing of caregiving.

The Case for Parental/Paternity Leave (28:35, 29:46)

• Studies (including from Sweden and California) show that when men have access to paternity leave:
  • They remain more involved a decade later.
  • Marriages are more stable and partners report less depression and stress.
• “There are benefits…I think, to the whole family system when you empower dads to have some time off.” – DS [30:28]
• Dr. Saxbe advocates for “use it or lose it” policies that earmark some leave specifically for fathers.

Relationship Dynamics and Co-regulation (32:41)

• Close synchronization (“co-regulation”) of stress (as measured by cortisol) between new parents can be a double-edged sword.
  • Too much alignment can create “stress contagion.”
  • Parenthood is frequently a “crisis event” in couple relationships.
  • “It’s helpful for couples to modulate and balance each other’s emotional states…You don’t want to be so tightly entrained…” – DS [32:41]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On parenting skills:
  “Great dads are made, not born.” – DS [34:35]
• On gendered advice:
  “A really bad piece of advice to give new dads is like, wait for mom to tell you what to do…Kids benefit from having multiple caregivers with different styles.” – DS [41:45]
• On societal design:
  “We humans are cooperative breeders. We were built to parent in conjunction with other people…we need to rethink our built environments.” – DS [24:34]
• On humility in science:
  “There’s a tendency when trying to translate science to the public to want to sound very conclusive… I get extremely skeptical because there’s actually pretty much no finding in psychological science that I trust completely.” – DS [44:29]
• Quick reassurance to new dads:
  “You can do it. This is supposed to transform you. It’s supposed to be hard. Men can do hard things.” – DS [47:14]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:35 – Dad brains: fathers’ brains are responsive and change with caregiving
• 03:33 – Reframing “mom brain” and “dad brain”
• 04:49 – What drives male brain change in parenthood
• 09:21 – Comparing male and female parental brain changes
• 12:19 – Discussion on whether the child’s gender affects paternal brain/hormones
• 18:58 – The biology behind “dad bod”
• 23:27 – The psychological costs of engaged fatherhood and need for support
• 28:35 – Why paternity leave and community matter
• 32:41 – Relationship stress and co-regulation after a new baby
• 34:35 – Message to new dads: skill comes from practice
• 41:45 – Worst advice to new dads: “wait for mom to tell you what to do.”
• 44:29 – On scientific uncertainty and staying open-minded

---

Lightning Round Highlights

• Worst advice new dads get: “Wait for mom to tell you what to do” [41:45]
• Dream dinner party: Dr. Saxbe would invite Shakespeare, William James—Adam wonders about the parents of geniuses, including Mozart’s “tiger parent” dad [42:18]
• On being honest about research limitations: Dr. Saxbe cites Jim Rilling’s contrary findings and the importance of humility and context in science [44:29]

---

Practical Takeaways for Dads and Families

• Active, hands-on caregiving induces positive neural change—men can “rewire” for fatherhood.
• Practice is key: Parenting is not innate for men; skill and confidence come through doing.
• Take your leave: Paternity leave benefits fathers, mothers, and children—when available, use it.
• Develop your own “dad style”: Kids benefit from multiple approaches; don’t wait for instructions.
• Seek and create support networks: Community is protective for both parents’ and kids’ well-being.
• Expect challenge and transformation: The transition is hard but can bring deep rewards.

---

Closing Message

Dr. Darby Saxbe leaves new dads with the reminder:

“You can do it. This is supposed to transform you. It’s supposed to be hard. Men can do hard things and you have to care enough to be a good dad and you can do it.” [47:14]

---

This summary focuses on the core content of the episode, omitting advertisements and non-content sections.

Transcript

[Adam Grant]

This Father's Day at Lowe's, we have extra big deals for a very limited time so you can get dad the gift he's been wishing for. Get a free select Craftsman dewalt or Cobalt battery when you buy a select combo kit. Plus save $90 on a cobalt 24 volt battery, string trimmer and leaf blower combo kit now $129. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's ballot through 615 while supplies last selection varies by location. This podcast is supported in part by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results. On this show, we spend a lot of time questioning assumptions, especially the ones we've accepted as just the way things are. One assumption many organizations rarely rethink how their financial operations actually get done. That's why smart leaders turn to Bill with AI powered automation. Bill isn't just moving money, it's reducing the manual work of invoices and expenses for nearly half a million businesses. In fact, Bill reports that 98 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust them to manage, move and maximize their clients money all in one place. The right systems can free up time, reduce drag and make growth more intentional. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with a platform built to evolve with you. Visit bill.com proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a $150 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com proven terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details.

[Darby Saxbe]

We've seen this kind of revolution in father involvement, and what we see in the brain echoes a little bit what we see in mothers. And it tells us that human men come equipped with a neurobiology that is responsive and dynamic when men invest in parenthood.

[Adam Grant]

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the Science of what makes us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. Darby Saxby is a clinical psychologist and neuroscientist at usc. Her specialty is parenting, specifically dads and how their brains react and change when they welcome a child into their lives. Darby unpacks her groundbreaking research in her new book, dad Brain, which focuses on the biological, psychological and social transformations men undergo when they become fathers. It turns out their brains change in similar, if less intense ways as new moms brains. For men, it's less triggered by immediate biological shifts and more determined by their own behavior.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, so what I found in my lab is that men show brain changes with new fatherhood that are linked to their extent of involvement and caretaking time.

[Adam Grant]

In today's conversation, Darby and I talk about what these changes mean for parents and their children. I thought the title of your book was so interesting in that mom brain is a derogatory term. And I cringe every time I hear someone say, oh, mom brain, as if they've gotten more forgetful or dumber. And dad brain kind of on its face sounds like a similarly derogatory term. But I don't think you mean it that way.

[Darby Saxbe]

Not at all. Yeah. If anything, I think it's a bit of a superpower. And I think we need to reclaim mom brain also, frankly. And I say that as a mom myself. You know, I think we often have this kind of deficit model framing around parenthood where we think that we're becoming less capable. And in fact, the opposite is frequently true. And the newest kind of cognitive psychology research on mom brain actually suggests that moms have better memory for objects and cues that are salient to their baby and to parenthood. It actually sharpens their memory and attention. It's just that they have somewhat worse memory for everything else. So it's not that memory overall is becoming impaired. It's that it's becoming more selective. And so if we can reclaim mom brain, then I think we can also reclaim dad brain. And I think the upside of dad brain is just that it tells us about men's capacity to care, and it tells us that human men come equipped with a neurobiology that is responsive and dynamic when men invest in parenthood. And I think that's a very positive thing for the future of humanity.

[Adam Grant]

The idea that men's brains change when they become fathers, I think is novel for a lot of us. What got you interested in this and how does it work?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, so I think it's precisely because it's sort of surprising that I find it so interesting, because fathers don't undergo pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. They don't have the hormonal surges that new moms do, and they don't show the same kind of visible physical changes. So father's adaptations to parenthood are much more of an example of experience dependent neuroplasticity. And I think of it in terms of, you know, whenever we spend our time learning something new or practicing new skills, our brain changes to reflect that. And so when we practice care, when we practice being sensitive to the signals of a new baby, we're honing networks and structures in the brain that support that. So I think that's what the sort of dynamic brain changes in fatherhood are showing us. That as men invest in care, their neurobiology reflects that.

[Adam Grant]

Are you saying they have to invest in care to experience brain changes? The mere fact of knowing that they've welcomed a child is not enough.

[Darby Saxbe]

Exactly. So the more men tell us in pregnancy that they want to take time off after the birth of a baby, the more they take pleasure in interacting with their child, the more bonded they feel, the more hours per week they're spending in care, and the more of that time they're spending as a primary caregiver, the more we see changes in their brains.

[Adam Grant]

So interesting. So it's not becoming a father, it's becoming a caregiver that drives these effects.

[Darby Saxbe]

Exactly. Or, you know, becoming a hands on father. Right. Becoming an engaged father. That seems to be what makes father's neurobiology change. So it kind of changes as they invest.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so we live in a world where dads are much more involved as caregivers than they were a generation or two ago. The time use statistics that I've read suggest that dads are spending three to four times as much time per week with their kids as their dads did with them. And that's a lot. So what does that do to our brains?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, exactly. And that's what we're still figuring out. So a lot of what we know about new moms came from a big Nature neuroscience paper that was published in 2016. It was done by a research group in Spain that recruited women from a fertility clinic who were trying to get pregnant. And they followed the women across pregnancy and early parenthood. And they had a comparison group of women recruited from the same setting who didn't become mothers. And they found changes that were so profound that they could use a machine learning algorithm essentially, to tell who became a mother just from the changes to their brain.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Darby Saxbe]

And what they found was gray matter volume reduction. So the brain was actually losing volume from preconception to postpartum. And this seemed to be an adaptive remodeling because where the brain was losing volume, adaptive.

[Adam Grant]

It sounds like terrible news. Your brain is shrinking, don't have kids.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, it sounds like very bad news. But where the brain was losing the most volume is actually in the regions that we consider to be responsible for social cognition, mentalizing, and thinking about other people's minds. Those regions get a lot of practice in early parenthood. And the extent to which the brain lost volume in those regions Tracked with mom's bonding and connection to their infants. So we think this is a healthy process of streamlining and making these really important parts of the brain work more efficiently when you become a parent. So I got so excited by this study, I hopped on a plane, went to Spain, collaborated with this research group, and we ended up working with a sample of fathers that they had collected data from. They were partners of the moms in the study. And I had been scanning new dads in my lab at the University of Southern California. So we pooled our two samples, this Spanish sample and my US sample, and we found really similar changes in the dads. They were also losing gray matter, matter volume. But the changes were much more subtle, they were much more nuanced, they were much more variable. And then when I reanalyzed the data, just to look at my sample, we found they were really tied to dad's investment in care.

[Adam Grant]

Yep, that makes sense. And so the dads who are invested in care, it sounds like then the neurological changes that you saw were similar to what you would see in moms, is that right?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yes, very similar, but a few important distinctions. So, like I said, the changes were smaller and more variable, but they were also volume reduction. But where the volume loss happened was in the part of the brain we call the cortex, which is like the kind of top layer of outer brain tissue that we consider to be responsible for our higher order functions like executive function and sort of more sophisticated thinking and reasoning. The moms lost volume in those regions, and in particular, the mentalizing network, as I said. But they also lost volume in the subcortex, which is the part of the brain that we think about driving our gut feelings and basic emotions. And so the dads were really showing just changes in those higher order brain regions.

[Adam Grant]

So when you say more efficient, I start to think about, okay, so the brain is consuming fewer resources to do the same task, and that's good for the body in some ways. I also start to wonder about specialization. Is there a narrowing of a circle of concern? Are both moms and dads getting better at reading their newborns, but maybe a little bit worse at interacting with people that are maybe outside of that inner circle or that are harder for them to understand?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, that's such an interesting way to frame it, which I hadn't really thought about before. But we do know that there's this sort of preferred in group bias that happens when we become parents, that we are more invested in our immediate family and sort of less interested in the fates of others. So that could be what's happening in the brain. You know, the hunch is that it really does reflect this sort of streamlining. As we practice and gain skills, we need to make circuits work faster in certain areas. So I think of it as like, you know, editing a movie clip. It's like the meandering director's cut versus the streamlined, shorter version that tells a concise story. Like, we want the more efficient version because we're going to be using these same skills and structures quite a bit. And if you think about what you need to do as a parent, you do have to try to figure out what your baby, who cannot communicate with you clearly needs from moment to moment. So when your baby cries, you have to orient to the salience of the sound. You have to practice and deploy different strategies to try to soothe them. You have to modulate your distress, you have to regulate your emotions and, and you have to be rewarded by the interaction because you're gonna need to do it many, many more times. So, you know, all of those regions are gonna get sort of like intensive practice just in the first months of parenthood.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, let's hold constant the amount of caregiving that fathers do. And let's assume we're talking about engaged fathers. Do the changes in their brain vary as a function of whether they've just had a boy or a girl?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I've looked at this in our data and, and we do find some differences in testosterone when dads are having boys versus girls. I haven't seen any significant differences in the brain. So I'm curious what you think the reason would be for sort of like gender specific effects. Like, do we think that dads would be more or less invested in girls versus boys or just that they would care for them differently?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I'm thinking about a whole body of research on the daughter effect, which I'm sure you know better than I do, but I've read a series of studies suggesting that when men have a firstborn daughter, they become more empathetic and more generous. And I think, you know, some of this has to do with, you know, sort of the, the legitimization of care and concern for a girl that may not exist the same way with a boy. And I'm sure there are a lot of cultural expectations that govern that, but some of the effects are pretty far reaching. So I'm thinking about a study of Danish CEOs, for example, where after they have a firstborn daughter, as opposed to a son, they pay their employees more generously. And I'm thinking, okay, it's a big leap to go from, you had a daughter that activated empathy, and now you're starting to think more about the welfare of the people who work for you. That's kind of staggering, what's going on there. And so, yeah, that. That was basically where I went. What do you make of all this?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, that's a really interesting thing to think about. And, you know, it reminds me of. You often hear politicians say, you know, as the father of daughters, I'm going to support this bill. It's like, oh, you wouldn't have supported it without your daughters. Right. It's like something about having girls. And I think it also, in some ways, like, it allows men to maybe try a side of themselves that they would ordinarily not be comfortable displaying. So I think a lot of the time, fathers of boys feel like they need to kind of toughen their boys up or they need to make sure their boys are suited for the rigors of the harsh world. Whereas with girls, fathers can, you know, do tea parties and get their nails painted. You know, like, I think there's a broader repertoire, let's not go too far of ways to be. And, you know, obviously this varies a ton depending on the specific dad and the specific girl or boy that the dad is parenting. But it may allow some men to be a little more gender expansive in a way that still feels socially sanctioned. But, I mean, so far I haven't found any correlates of this with the brain. But I should caveat. This is an emerging area of research with small samples, so there's still so much we need to learn.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's not surprising that there have been multiple studies showing that when politicians have daughters, they're more likely to sponsor bills that are pro women. I can see the direct connection there. But you have a daughter, and as a venture capitalist, you're more likely to invest in female led startups. Okay, that's a little bit less obvious that you would start to care about people who are not directly connected to your family. And I think, okay, is it that becoming a father makes you a little bit less misogynistic or makes you a little bit more of a feminist? Or to your point, is it more that it's giving you cover to express values that you already hold?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, I think it's an interesting question about parenthood. Sort of giving men permission to behave in a lot of different ways that maybe they already wanted to, but there's sort of like this social cover, especially when you're the parent of girls.

[Adam Grant]

And.

[Darby Saxbe]

And I think the answer is we probably don't know yet from the research that we have, because there hasn't been enough work looking at child gender specific effects.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. When you say permission, I think of that every time I see somebody talk with pride about being a girl dad. I think Kobe Bryant probably modeled that more visibly than anybody I can think of in American culture. And I think for a lot of dads, it was a movement almost that, like, okay, I have permission now to say, yeah, I braid my daughter's hair. Or, you know, for those of us who don't braid well and were fired from that job. Yeah, at least I know how to do a high ponytail. And once upon a time, that was a useful skill. And I think taking that. That form of caring kindness and making that a source of pride as opposed to something you hide because it's stigmatized, that does seem to be part of the story.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, definitely. And I think there has been a sea change in general with fatherhood, where men are increasingly reporting that it's a key source of meaning and purpose in their lives. It's a way in which they build social connections with other people, other parents, and it's something that they derive a lot of pride from. And I think millennial dads especially, who are doing so much childcare, so much more childcare time than was standard in the kind of classic 50s and 60s dad. It's like, I think men actually really enjoy and appreciate having the opportunity to be caring, to be present with kids. That's something I heard from a lot of the dads that I interviewed for the book.

[Adam Grant]

You mentioned that you did see gender differences with testosterone. What were those?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, so I should say we haven't published any of this work yet, so, you know, stay tuned. But we found that fathers of boys had higher testosterone prenatally and then less of a drop in testosterone after birth. So there seem to be just some differences in terms of where testosterone goes around the birth of a baby. And what's interesting to know about testosterone is there is kind of a normative drop in T levels when men become fathers. And that's been found not just in human males, but in lots of different animals. Right. You see it in birds, you see it in rodents, you see it in primates that testosterone does tend to decline and that it seems to reflect the reproductive strategies of males. So whether your goal is to have as many offspring as possible in the hopes that some of them might survive, or whether you are adjusting to a more nurturing oriented reproductive strategy where you're trying to invest a lot more in each individual child.

[Adam Grant]

Is that also a novel explanation then for dad bodies?

[Darby Saxbe]

Definitely, yeah. Yeah. So I talk about this in the dad bod chapter that hormonal mechanisms are part of what's happening. And so it's. It's testosterone. It could also be a hormone called prolactin, which seems to be linked to fatherhood. But, yeah, there was a study of tamarind monkeys that looked at their weight gain over the course of a mate's pregnancy and found that even when they were eating the same food, the expectant father monkeys actually gained more weight. So there's something going on that isn't just about eating behavior.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Darby Saxbe]

It's probably about hormones. And there was actually a big human study as well, an epidemiological study that looked at testosterone levels in men and linked changes around the transition to fatherhood to increased adiposity.

[Adam Grant]

Which means what?

[Darby Saxbe]

Which means more abdominal fat.

[Adam Grant]

So even monkeys get dad bod. Good to know. Does that reduction in testosterone also reduce the motivation to work out?

[Darby Saxbe]

Probably, yeah, because it's linked with, you know, volition and motivation and kind of men's sense of energy and vitality. And we do see changes in physical activity around the transition to fatherhood, so that's likely a driver of dad bod changes as well, so.

[Adam Grant]

Interesting.

[Darby Saxbe]

And I talked to a researcher who has done a lot of work with hunter gatherers, and he said, you know, these are very lean men. And so when t drops around the transition to fatherhood, that's likely adaptive. They need more of a buffer in case of scarcity.

[Adam Grant]

This episode is sponsored by Cash App. When you get the Cash App card, you get access to great perks like discounts on popular brands and extra security. With 24. 7 fraud monitoring suspicious charge. Cash App automatically declines it and asks you to confirm. You can lock your card instantly from your phone in just one tap. Spend with peace of mind. Order your Cash App card at Cash App Card. New Cash App Customers can earn $10 if they use code SECURE10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners. Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton bank member fdic. Cash App Visa debit flex cards issued by Sutton Bank Member FDIC and the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. See Terms and conditions for the Sutton Prepaid Card, Sutton Debit Flex Card and Bancorp Debit Flex Card. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App Legal Podcast for full disclosures. This episode is powered by AT and T Business there's something we often don't question until it the invisible systems that support our work. When you're building something, whether it's a business, a team, or an idea, you're constantly making trade offs about where to invest your time and energy. Imagine being hunched over a laptop in a quiet corner of the office, finally hitting your stride, only to have a spinning loading icon bring everything to a halt. It's that split second where the momentum just breaks and you're forced to stop what you're doing to troubleshoot a connection that should have just worked when you're already navigating uncertainty, complexity and competing priorities. Reliability isn't a luxury, it's a foundation. That's what makes AT and T Business a strong provider for small business owners. It's built to work so you can spend less time troubleshooting and more time focusing on the work that actually matters. Powered by AT and T Business Built to Work get [e-mail] you have the vision for your business. You have the plan, and you just got handed a huge opportunity. But is your business connectivity reliable enough to make a move? Spectrum Business delivers fast, reliable Internet, phone, TV and mobile services, so you're always connected when it matters most. Get connectivity packages built for your business with savings that keep your budget in check. And with fast, reliable Internet and 100% US based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life. Learn [e-mail] business restrictions apply services not available in all areas. You also point out that there are some downsides to what happens to dads. Talk to me about those and also what do we do to avoid them?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yes, definitely. We found that the same neural adaptations that seem to track with men's investment in parenthood and their bonding with their infant and their enjoyment of their infant also were linked with some mental health risks. So when dads showed more cortical gray matter volume reductions, they reported worse sleep. They reported more symptoms of depression, more anxiety, and more overall psychological distress. And so I think the answer there is not that men should not become parents any more than the answer to postpartum depression in women is that women should never become mothers. Rather, to me, it's an indicator that caregiving is costly, it's draining, it's isolating, it's repetitive, and it's taxing and that we as a society need to think harder about how to support parents as they do what is arguably the most important work of any employee ever.

[Adam Grant]

Agreed. How do we do it?

[Darby Saxbe]

Good question. Well, I mean, I think there are a lot of public policies that would probably help. And there's a chapter in the book about paternity leave and what that looks like in different countries. I think we have a lot of stigma around men taking time off after the birth of a baby. A lot of dads, even who have access to paid leave are reluctant to take it because they feel like they'll get blowback from their coworkers or from their employers. So I think allowing some time off after the birth to rest, recover and bond is really imperative. I also think, you know, we've lost the kind of community and extended family networks that we really evolved to parent within. Right. So we humans are cooperative breeders. We were built to parent in conjunction with other people. And yet we've kind of developed this very isolated model of the nuclear family where we're sort of trapped in a house with our individual kids and we're not necessarily getting those networks of support. So I think we need to rethink our built environments. We need to think about how we build stronger community fabric and we, you know, need to refocus our energies on reducing the epidemic of parenting stress.

[Adam Grant]

I'm going to endorse all of that. It's bothered me for a long time that we're leaving the fate of an entire generation up to the luck of the draw of what one or two parents they happen to get. As opposed to. If you think about how some more collectivistic cultures are organized or frankly, what we did for a lot of human history, you would have grandparents, aunts, uncles, extended, essentially you'd have a village. Right. And so if, you know, if you had an abusive parent or a neglectful parent, there were other people there to step in. And I think we've deprived most kids of that access and frankly, most parents of that help and support too.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I interviewed an anthropologist who looks at fathers within hunter gatherer societies, right? Like that's the context in which we humans spent 95% of our evolutionary history. And there you have these kind of mobile bands of 20 to 30 people. Everybody knows each other really well, and kids are truly raised communally. And there are a lot of mixed age playgroups where older kids are essentially mentored by their peers and by teens and those who are a little bit older. And I think we now really are feeling that lack of that kind of collective approach to care. And you just see it in the extent to which parents feel sort of lonely and cut off from each other.

[Adam Grant]

Yep, absolutely. And, you know, I think the, like, the design of parental leave is supposed to help with that, but in some cases, people end up feeling even more. More isolated when they no longer have a work community and they're just kind of overwhelmed with the job of parenting. They're on their own.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, like, we know it's actually healthy to have routines where you're out and you're seeing people. And I think you actually do see slightly different models in other countries. Like, I talk a little bit about this in the book, but kind of paternity leave nudge and incentive programs like the ones you see in the Nordics, where a certain amount of leave is earmarked for dads. And I think there you have more of an opportunity to kind of build a society of parents. And you have this phenomenon in Sweden called the latte papas, which is like the men kind of holding their takeout cups of coffee, pushing strollers, and sort of meeting up in the city center. And so I think when there's kind of a normalization of parents being home with their kids, there are maybe more opportunities for them to connect with each other. But then you also need to live, I think, in places where you can walk and see each other and not in kind of atomized suburban sprawl, which is sort of part of the problem with our neighborhood design here.

[Adam Grant]

I think so, too. So it seems like part of then the case for parental leave is that we need the time as dads with newborns to bond and to do the caregiving. Then that activates dad brain, like, full stop there, right?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, exactly. You know, a lot of men feel like they're not equipped for parenthood. They're not wired for it. We have these very essentialist, kind of gendered myths around caregiving and parenting, that women have a knack for it and that dads don't know what they're doing. And I think the best remedy for that is just practice and experience. And dads can have their own repertoire. They can develop their own style of interacting with kids, but the more they get the chance to do that, the better they're going to feel about the parenting role.

[Adam Grant]

Seems like a natural experiment waiting to be done. Looking at when countries or cities or states or provinces start to mandate parental leave, then what happens to both dad's brains and also what happens to their patterns of, you know, bonding, connecting, and caregiving with their kids. Has anyone done that yet?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, we have a little bit of data on that so far. So, like, couple countries have done leave reforms that have expanded paternity leave access for men. And there are studies that look at children born right before and right after those reforms are introduced, which is like a perfect way to compare. And you see, dads actually have more enduring marriages. They have more involvement in parenting even a decade after taking leave, and moms actually have better mental health. So one study in Sweden actually found lower rates of moms using prescription anti anxiety medication when men had more access to paternity leave.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Darby Saxbe]

And my lab actually did a similar study just looking at our sample in California, where some of our dads had access to paid leave, some of them didn't. And we found that when the dads had access to paid leave, their partners actually were buffered from depression and reported less stress from prenatal to postpartum. So there are benefits, I think, to the whole family system when you kind of empower dads to have some time off.

[Adam Grant]

Incredible. If. If that doesn't make an airtight case for parental leave being extended to fathers as well as mothers, I don't know what does. Yeah, I do have to ask. I'm wondering if you can help me resolve some ambivalence about parental leave and what fairness looks like. Because I've seen a lot of leaders in the work that I do in organizations argue for, like, it's time to get to parity. We should give men the same amount of parental leave that women get. And on the one hand, I think that's. It's a powerful way of normalizing leave, on the other hand. But you didn't just birth a baby. You didn't grow a human in your body. You don't have to recover from the physical experience. Where do you come down on this as an expert?

[Darby Saxbe]

You know, I kind of land on the side of let's mandate some leave for dads. I really like the Scandinavian model of, like, let's earmark a few months of the total leave time that a couple is allotted specifically for dads. So there's like a use it or lose it program where there is a certain chunk of the leave that has dad's name on it. If he doesn't take it, it goes away. But we don't have to necessarily force that it's gonna happen at the exact same time or in the exact same way or for the exact same duration in moms and dads. Like, let's give couples some autonomy in figuring out what they would prefer to do about the leave that's available to them.

[Adam Grant]

If we just pause where we are so far, I think people will say, okay, net positive, get dads involved in caregiving. It's good, obviously, for the newborn, it's good for the dad, it's good for the mom. You just told us. But if my memory serves me right, you also have some evidence that when, if couples are a man and a woman, when they get more into sync, there's a dark side of that.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, it's an interesting conundrum. So I've done work on my lab looking at co regulation of cortisol levels, for example, which is a stress hormone. We find that when couples have more tightly synchronized patterns of cortisol, they actually report more relationship distress. So the way I think about it is it's helpful for couples to be able to modulate and balance each other's emotional states. You don't want to be so kind of tightly entrained that you are showing stress contagion. And we know that becoming a parent is a huge inflection point for couple distress. So it's been called a crisis event for the marriage. As early as the 1950s, we see a big nosedive in couples relationship quality when they have a new baby. And there are a lot of reasons for why that might be the case. But it's something that I think a lot of couples have to muddle through. And what you really see is variability in outcomes. You know, some couples end up separating and can't weather that transition. Other couples end up reporting stronger relationship quality over time because they discover this new dimension in their partners.

[Adam Grant]

Office hours, time. You get to ask a question of me. If there's a problem, a puzzle, a challenge, a curiosity, a mystery that you have, I would love to hear it.

[Darby Saxbe]

Great. Well, I mean, you're a dad yourself. So I'm curious. What do you think is the best way to get the message out about the fathering brain to new dads?

[Adam Grant]

Well, I would say write a book and then go on book tour. Done.

[Darby Saxbe]

I did it.

[Adam Grant]

Let me ask you a question about your question, which is what is the message that you're trying to land that you're worried people are not going to hear?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. So I would say a couple things. One is just, you know, men's brains and bodies are transformed by parenthood, just as women's are. And I think the other piece is kind of like great dads are made, not born, which is to say that it's not that you have this innate sort of ability to be a great parent, it's rather that the more you practice, the more you care, the more you invest, the better you get. And I hope that thinking about that will make dads feel more empowered and more eager to participate, even if, you know, in the first weeks and months, they are a little unsure about what to do.

[Adam Grant]

Got it. Okay. So I think the maybe then my reaction to that question is, I would love to hear a little bit more about fatherhood is something I get better at with practice. What are the key skill sets that I need to work on, and where do I get feedback? Because I think that I know a lot of dads who came into this thinking, I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm just gonna listen to my wife and take her advice. But they're the same people who went and watched a YouTube video when they wanted to figure out how to fix the brakes on their car. And they're missing both, I guess, the knowledge and also the, like, the understanding of what are the routines and habits to be able to work on their skills. And so I guess both my advice to you and my question back to you is, can you break down especially early fatherhood as a skill set that I can learn? And can you help me hold up a mirror so I can get feedback on how I'm doing?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say there is some immediate feedback in the form of your baby. And so it may just be that learning how to pay close attention is the best way to become a great parent, because you can become an expert in your own child. You know, we have this huge parenting advice industry, and I think some of it's counterproductive because it's going to tell you what to do with a kid who isn't yours. And so, as you learn any human being, but especially a baby or child better, you figure out what calms them down, what makes them giggle, what helps them fall asleep, and then you do more of that. Right. So you're sort of being shaped by your baby in the same way that you, as a parent, you're shaping your child's outcomes.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. If part of the both the challenge and the opportunity is to tune in to what a baby is expressing, there's knowledge hiding, collecting dust in our research journals that new parents, especially new dads, would benefit from. I'm thinking, like, okay, there's a training course in there, right. Where dads can listen to and moms too, can listen to the prototypical hungry versus Angry versus Hangry cries and then say, okay, I can now learn to pick up those cues in my newborn. Does anything like this exist to your knowledge?

[Darby Saxbe]

I actually had this idea that I had pitched to my agent and never went anywhere with it, but that we should make a video game, kind of like a Grand Theft Auto or sort of like a single shooter kind of game. But it's like you're a dad and you have to do a bunch of stuff to take care of your baby and kind of manage your household. So it's like, could we develop better interventions to sort of train dads prenatally, whether it's through a video game, whether it's through an app. There was a researcher in the Netherlands who did a 3D ultrasound study where they had dads see a 3D ultrasound of their baby. And they had an attachment expert walking them through how to interact with the unborn child, like sing to the baby or stroke the baby's foot, things like that. And they actually found that when Dads did the 3D ultrasound intervention, they had better parenting sensitivity postpartum. So I think there's some promise for some of these interventions.

[Adam Grant]

I think so, too.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. It's a gap in the literature. Right. Because people haven't really tested them.

[Adam Grant]

I love the video game idea.

[Darby Saxbe]

I mean, I also think there's some promise for intervention soon after birth where, you know, create a forum where dads can bring their babies and, you know, learn some basics, like with their actual infant. Right. Anything that I think builds dad's sense of confidence is going to be valuable in the first months.

[Adam Grant]

Bring it on. This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler's Smart Toilet challenges that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vail Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional. It's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet is sleek, with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high performance function. That's a long time to get it right. And it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler Smart Toilets. Find out [e-mail] this episode is sponsored by the Amazon Kindle Scribe. Up until now, people have had to choose between the focus that comes from writing on paper and the efficiency of laptops and tablets, which might come at the cost of distracting pop ups and notifications. The Kindle Scribe's exciting new AI features are designed to streamline your workflow for maximum efficiency. But what's not on it is just as important. Scribe comes with no email, messaging or social apps, so you can unlock your best focus. Use Scribe's AI Notebook Insights to ask your notebook a question and instantly comb through handwritten notes for fast answers. Or pull up and Mark PDFs with PDF markup right on your screen. No printer necessary. The Kindle Scribe makes it easy to keep your notes organized with everything you need in one place without having to sort through paper files or type notes on your laptop. I love how the Kindle Scribe brings my notes to life while making them impossible to lose. I know what I'm working on moving forward. What are you working on? Kindle Scribe support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way Wise. You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions, saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the wise app today. Ts and Cs apply. Okay, it's time for a lightning round. You ready for this?

[Darby Saxbe]

Sure.

[Adam Grant]

What is the worst advice that new dads get?

[Darby Saxbe]

I think a really bad piece of advice to give new dads is like, wait for mom to tell you what to do. And I think for a lot of dads, their experience of being a parent is totally mediated through their partner. But I think actually we know from attachment science, kids benefit from having multiple caregivers with different styles. And you know, the idea that there's one right way to do things for your kid actually can really hamstring dads. So I would say like, have your own style and, you know, get your own time alone as the main caretaker.

[Adam Grant]

Love that. Okay, so you get to host a dinner party of the most interesting dads in history and learn about how they raised their kids. Who are you inviting?

[Darby Saxbe]

Okay. I mean, I guess William Shakespeare was a dad. He'd be pretty interesting to chat with. Maybe we'll throw in some William James. How about that?

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so you. You went to great thinkers and wanted to know what kind of parents they were. It's so interesting. I found myself wanting to go the opposite route and say, okay, who are the people whose parents I would love to talk to? Like, I'd love to sit down with da Vinci's dad.

[Darby Saxbe]

Oh, interesting.

[Adam Grant]

What, if anything, did you do to cultivate that kind of curiosity?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Think about someone like Harriet Tubman or Lucy Stone. Like, what were the parental values instilled early on that, you know, led to the kind of moral courage that they showed?

[Darby Saxbe]

Right, right. Like, and what sort of gave them the grit and the perseverance to do hard things? I mean, I don't know if you'd want to talk to Mozart's dad. I hear he was like, a real stage parent.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, maybe the first tiger parent.

[Darby Saxbe]

Right, Exactly. I like your intuition. So maybe we'll take the people that I said I would invite and we'll just invite their dads.

[Adam Grant]

I think that works. And maybe if we're going to sit down with Mozart's dad, we're going to do it because we want to stage an intervention.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, right. Except then we don't have Mozart.

[Adam Grant]

I don't know. Or do we? Do we have a Mozart who didn't burn out and who actually made longer and greater contributions?

[Darby Saxbe]

Oh, that is such an excellent question. Like, is there a happy medium for how to be Mozart's dad?

[Adam Grant]

I think there has to be. You can make that your next book.

[Darby Saxbe]

Okay. Mozart's Dad's Brain. How about that?

[Adam Grant]

Love it. Okay. So I thought, in a move of extraordinary, both integrity and humility were very forthcoming about some evidence that directly contradicts your own research, which just made my day. I'm like, yeah, that's a real scientist. It was so clear that you care more about finding the truth and being right. But it is also really complicated to have somebody's research show the exact opposite of what you're discovering. Can you tell me, like, what this contrary research found and how it's making you rethink your own work?

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. So Jim Rilling, who is one of my favorite neuroscientists, he's at Emory, and he actually has a book called Father Nature, which I recommend. He did some. Yeah, he did some brain structure work that actually found that there weren't volume reductions in new dads. And we were sort of puzzling over that together at a conference recently. But it was definitely hard to write a science book and be honest about the limitations of the science. Because I think there's a tendency when trying to translate science to the public to want to sound very conclusive. And I feel like whenever I read Popular Science that tells me that something is definitely 100% proven to be true, I get extremely skeptical because there's actually pretty much no finding in psychological science that I trust completely. You know, like some of our foundational thinking in the field, like there have been some studies that turned out to not replicate. So we always, I think, need to bring a lot of willingness to be wrong when we're looking at the evidence.

[Adam Grant]

I think so too. I think though, that sometimes the sort of the public reaction to that message gets oversimplified and ironically, like ends up in the very binary bias that we're trying to prevent of. Okay, well then if this isn't at all true, it's all bogus. I'm like, no, no. Most of the studies that don't replicate, that were carefully done in the first place, they found something that was specific to a group of people, to a particular context. And what we need to be asking is not is this real or fake? But rather, where does it hold? Where does it not?

[Darby Saxbe]

Right? Like, we humans are fairly context dependent and a lot of our work in psychology was based on weird samp. Right.

[Adam Grant]

Like literally.

[Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, yeah, weird samples. What is that? Western educated, industrialized, rich democracies.

[Adam Grant]

Bingo.

[Darby Saxbe]

So we don't really know how universal the universal principles that we are identifying actually are. And I think we have to be careful about any claims that we make because the best part about science is that it's self correcting and that it's falsifiable. Right. Like the pseudoscience is generally very hard to falsify. Like, science should have a way that you can show that something is wrong and that's how you know you're on the right track. And so you want to be clear about what you know, but you also want to be clear about the limitations of what you know.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so let me ask you this just to wrap up. If you could give one piece of advice to dads about how to be better fathers that we haven't covered, what would it be?

[Darby Saxbe]

You can do it. This is supposed to transform you. It's supposed to be hard. Men can do hard things and you have to care enough to be a good dad and you can do it.

[Adam Grant]

This has been a ton of fun and eye opening too. Thank you, Darvi.

[Darby Saxbe]

Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

[Adam Grant]

Rethinking is hosted by me Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser, our editor is Alejandra Salazar, our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson, our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hann Dale, sue and Allison Layton Brown.

[Darby Saxbe]

Is my cat purring in a loud way? That's too distracting.

[Adam Grant]

I can't hear the purring at all.

[Darby Saxbe]

Okay. It's so funny. He didn't interact with me at all until we started this. It's. Your voice is like very attractive to him.

[Adam Grant]

Clearly. I think it's cat brain. Your team just added its 67th AI tool and also your 67th security blind spot. The good news? The Vanta Agent works like a GRC engineer in the background, finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16,000 fast moving companies like Ramp, Cursor and Harvey who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get [e-mail] Think of a toilet as

[Darby Saxbe]

just an everyday object. Your entire perspective shifts the moment you experience a Kohler Smart toilet. Design changes everything, transforming a basic routine into something extraordinary with standout aesthetics and intuitive controls. These are functional works of art, stunning design that never sacrifices performance. Enjoy customizable features for elevated comfort and convenience. It's more than a fixture, it's a cleaner routine and a more refined space. Experience the difference of Kohler Smart Toilets.

[Adam Grant]

Find [e-mail] real winning means showing up stronger, faster, better than before. The drop by GNC cuts through the noise, bringing you the best new innovations in performance and nutrition. From strength and recovery to endurance and focus. You're always leveling up the drop by gnc. What's new? What works? What's next?

[Darby Saxbe]

You stopped waiting for permission and started building yourself your dreams. Your credit Experian Boost could turn your on time payments into instant FICO score gains. Every bill you paid could become proof of your power. Self made, absolutely self funded. Experian could help you get there. Download the Experian app today. Results will vary. Not all payments are boost eligible. Some may not see improved scores or approval odds. Not all lenders use credit information impacted by experian boost. See experian.com for details.