ReThinking Podcast (No Small Endeavor Special)

Joy Harjo on Poetry and Pursuit of the Common Good

Host: Lee C. Camp (No Small Endeavor)
Guest: Joy Harjo (Three-term U.S. Poet Laureate, Muscogee Creek Nation)
Release Date: November 3, 2025

Overview

This episode features a profound conversation between Lee C. Camp and Joy Harjo, exploring the transformative power of poetry in responding to crisis, the intersection of Native identity and activism, the complexity of American and personal histories, and the pursuit of healing and justice through art. Harjo shares personal stories, readings of new poems, and reflections on ancestry, colonialism, and the simple practices—witness, awe, and kindness—that cultivate collective well-being.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Role of Poetry in Challenging Times

• Ceremonial Language:
  Joy describes poetry as a ceremonial language, distinct from everyday speech, which “taps on your heart or at the edge of your soul and says, okay, let's pay attention here.” (04:32)
• A Tool for Witness and Connection:
  Poets are “witness to history,” bringing “refined and tough language” to public consciousness and deepening perceptions of connection. (05:30)
• Universal Need for Meaning:
  “We all, you know, think about why are we here? What does it mean?... Poetry demands another kind of language.” (05:10)

Origins of Harjo’s Work: Activism, Survival, and Voice

• Healing Through Art:
  Her turn to poetry was rooted in the Native rights movement, inspired by activists defending community and land. “My work came about out of a need for healing. I mean, justice is part of that.” (01:15, 07:45)
• Poetry as Survival:
  “Writing frees me to believe in myself, to be able to speak, to have voice because I have to. It is my survival.” (06:33)

Native Literary Tradition, Place, and Identity

• Importance of Representation:
  As a student in Oklahoma, Joy never read Native poets in school despite their centrality in state history. Encountering Native poets like Simon Ortiz and Leslie Silko was “like a door opening.” (08:47)
• Complex Heritage:
  Joy discusses her mixed Muscogee and Cherokee heritage, revealing nuanced stories not often reflected in mainstream histories (11:48), including eras of trauma, survival, and her family’s complicated connection to historical figures like Alexander Posey.

Generational Trauma and Addiction

• Seeking Vision:
  Reflecting on her father’s alcoholism, she recalls, “People are just looking for a vision. There is that nice little buzz at first, then the thought of going back into the real world gets a little bit difficult.” (13:29)
• Poetry Reading—“Overwhelm”:
  Harjo shares a poignant new poem about addiction, community, and the human longing to escape pain and find beauty, even momentarily. (14:10)

Growing Up Native in America

• Adolescence and Identity:
  Harjo likens adolescence—personally and nationally—to a transformative chrysalis period: “We’re in the gooey moment of chaotic, where you’re no longer a caterpillar, but you’re not a butterfly yet.” (16:20)
• Educational Gaps:
  American literary education excluded Native, Black, and many other voices. “My idea of a poet was an old white guy declaiming in a raincoat… it had nothing to do with me or my history…” (18:30)
• Cultural Complexity:
  Harjo resists the monolithic, trauma-only narrative about Native Americans, emphasizing the diversity of experiences—even within her own family, from oil wealth to sharecropping. (21:54)

Confronting Colonialism & History

• Colonial Patterns:
  Harjo reflects on the ongoing impacts of extraction and colonial policies, seeing echoes in both history and current events—yet also noting Native endurance: “We’ve been through this before and we’ll still be here after.” (05:00; 25:03)
• Bearing Witness and Power:
  “Ultimately each of us is a power source… we have to figure out what it is we were put here to do.” (25:55)

Everyday Heroes and Community Recognition

• Unsung Warriors:
  Harjo highlights the strength and perseverance of “ordinary people”—especially women and community members who overcome hardship quietly, outside of history books. (26:36)
• Memorable Quote:
  “Who do we see that no one else sees? … Sometimes they go through incredible hardship… but then they manage to get their high school diploma… and nobody knows their story.” (27:45)

Ancestry, Shared History, and “Story Field”

• Interconnected Legacies:
  Harjo and Camp share the intimate, sometimes painful overlap between settler and Native histories, particularly regarding the forced displacement of the Muscogee. (28:40)
• History as Living Presence:
  “Seven generations can live under one roof. That sense of time brings history close within breeding distance. I call it ancestor time. Everything is a living being—even time, even words.” – Joy Harjo (28:40; also 30:55 discussion)

On Democracy, Listening, and Respect

• Indigenous Influence on Democracy:
  Harjo reminds listeners that U.S. democracy drew from Native models of consensus and respectful listening—a practice broken by colonial violence, guns, and religious domination. (32:38)
• Complexity and Humility:
  “Making people inhuman is a problem… and that was the whole point of democracy, in a way… based on Native cultures… about consensus and talking respectfully and listening. Listening is a big part of it.” (33:25)

Religion, Awe, and Spirituality

• Spiritual Openness:
  Harjo’s earliest experience of the sacred was outside, “in incredible awe” of the world, and in simple kindness, rather than through church. (35:45)
• On Religious Conflict:
  “Religion has been a major cause of conflict and wars all over the world… For me, creation was being in incredible awe. I found that outside and I found it with the trees…” (35:45; 36:00)

Acts of Kindness and the Practice of Seeing

• Kindness as Recognition:
  Some of “the most subtle kindness perhaps is to look at somebody and see them, even in a moment… you have a story; your story is just as important as mine.” (39:54, 01:29)
• Personal Story:
  Harjo shares how a small act, like a teacher’s silent support or receiving money in the mail from a writer, became profound moments of healing and recognition. (39:54)

Joy Harjo’s Brief Self-Narrative

• A Life in Metaphor:
  “My mother was the sun and I was the moon… then at some point there’s a blooming with words and music… and that plant makes friends with plants all over the world.” (42:08)

Relationship with Nature and All Beings

• Plant Story:
  Harjo recounts her connection to an African violet as a metaphor for attentiveness, loss, and faith in life’s ability to communicate through small gestures. (43:11)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Poetry:
  “Poetry… is ceremonial language that taps on your heart and says, okay, let’s pay attention here.”
  – Joy Harjo, (00:58)
• On Healing and Activism:
  “My work came about out of a need for healing. I mean, justice is part of that.”
  – Joy Harjo, (01:15)
• On Bearing Witness:
  “All of us are witness to history. But poets bring that refined and tough language to the… attention of the people.”
  – Joy Harjo, (06:10)
• On Addiction:
  “People are just looking for a vision… There is that nice little buzz at first that everybody kind of wants to ride, and then it feels good. And then the thought of going back into the real world gets a little bit difficult.”
  – Joy Harjo, (13:29)
• On Shared Story:
  “That seems like this sort of awareness that we're all a part of this shared story. We find ourselves at different places in the story…”
  – Lee C. Camp, (30:55)
• On Democracy’s Roots:
  “And that was the whole point of democracy, in a way. And the way it was set up based on Native cultures, the Iroquois and the Muskogee, is about consensus and talking respectfully and listening. Listening is a big part of it.”
  – Joy Harjo, (33:25)
• On Kindness:
  “Some of the most subtle kindness perhaps is to look at somebody and see them, even in a moment… I honor you, and I honor that you're part of me in this story.”
  – Joy Harjo, (39:54)
• On Life’s Interconnectedness:
  “Life is in all things. There’s communication with all things, even planets and our organs in our bodies, you know, of course with each other.”
  – Joy Harjo, (44:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Poetry’s Role in Crisis: 00:58 – 06:56
• Harjo’s Artistic Origins – Activism and Healing: 06:56 – 08:47
• Encountering Native Literary Voices: 08:47 – 11:24
• Generational Family History and Trauma: 11:24 – 14:10
• Reading: “Overwhelm” (new poem): 14:10 – 15:54
• Adolescence, Identity, and Education: 16:20 – 20:25
• Muscohgee History & Complexity of Native Experience: 21:54 – 24:29
• Colonialism & Endurance: 25:03 – 26:21
• Ordinary Heroes, Unseen Warriors: 26:36 – 28:40
• Shared Histories & Ancestry: 28:40 – 32:00
• Roots of Democracy & Listening: 33:25 – 35:03
• Spirituality, Religion, and Awe: 35:45 – 39:54
• On Seeing and Kindness: 39:54 – 41:43
• Self-Narrative / Joy Harjo’s Life in Metaphor: 42:08 – 42:51
• African Violet Story – Interbeing: 43:11 – 44:29
• Closing Reflection on Bearing Witness and Awe (Lee C. Camp): 44:54 – End

Takeaways

• Poetry’s radical potential lies in its ability to bear witness, foster healing, and draw attention to otherwise ignored histories.
• Resilience is collective; history is living, layered, and bound up in each individual’s and community’s story.
• Practicing the common good means seeing, honoring, and standing in awe of other beings—human and more than human.
• Bearing witness and practicing awe are ordinary yet radical acts; as Camp closes, “these days many prefer to ignore the heartbreaking poignancy, the complexity. Yet… willful blindness will never serve us well.”

Essential Listening for anyone interested in art as resistance, the complexity of American history, and the graceful power of everyday kindness and attention.