Podcast Summary: ReThinking with Adam Grant

Episode: Margaret Atwood on what AI Can’t Replace

Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Adam Grant | Guest: Margaret Atwood

Overview

In this engaging episode, Adam Grant, organizational psychologist and host of ReThinking, sits down with acclaimed author Margaret Atwood. The conversation centers on what artificial intelligence (AI) can and cannot replicate, the nuances of human creativity, the persistence of originality, and the challenges of memoir writing. Margaret muses on the limitations of AI in literature, shares vivid anecdotes from her memoir, reflects on her early experiences with bullying, and discusses the dynamic between heroes and monsters in both fiction and life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Margaret Atwood’s Perspective on AI and Creativity

• On the Human Soul in Writing
  • “People want to feel they're connecting with another human mind, and if it is AI, they're not connecting with another human mind. They are connecting with an amalgam of other human minds put together. We know not how, but there isn't a... what we used to call a soul behind what you're reading.”
    — Margaret Atwood [03:26]
• AI excels at formulaic or derivative writing (e.g., commercial fiction, student essays), but struggles with original voice and emotional depth.
• “It will never be Shakespeare, although it can probably do a good imitation of Shakespeare now, as we all can.” [05:44]
• Margaret tried AI-generated stories in her own style; the AI failed to capture critical elements of dystopia and emotional resonance, producing absurdly literal or factually ungrounded work.
  • E.g., AI’s dystopian story set in Winnipeg missed the core premise: “In a dystopia, you can't just move out.” [11:08]
  • AI described chiggers as “singing” in a positive poem, misunderstanding their nature. [11:56]
• On Using AI in Writing
  • “Are you mad? Why would I do such a thing?” [13:23]
  • Atwood finds the idea of using AI in her creative process “lazy,” rooted in her strong work ethic.

2. AI Limitations & ‘Hallucinations’

• Margaret disputes the tech industry’s use of “hallucinations” for AI mistakes, insisting they are simple errors, not imaginative acts.
  • “That’s because they want to make AI sound human. So humans have hallucinations, machines don't. They just make mistakes.” [15:50]
• Novels, in her view, depend on the exploration of inner lives—something AI cannot adequately emulate.
  • “It could have somebody called Bob doing something or other, but it probably wouldn't be able to tell you much about Bob's inner life. And that's what novels do, really, better than any other art form.” [15:25]

3. On AI’s Societal Risks

• Most concerned by AI’s ability to produce deepfakes and propaganda, not its threat to literary careers.
• Predicts the main disruption will occur in formulaic writing jobs (e.g., ad copy, basic journalism), not in creative or literary writing.
• Highlights humanity’s enduring desire for authentic personal voices:
  • “I think people are still interested in hearing personal points of view from real people.” [17:04]

4. The Art and Pain of Memoir

• Atwood initially resisted writing a memoir but was drawn to the idea of capturing what one remembers—particularly “stupid things you did, stupid and evil things other people did to you.” [21:12]
• Found the writing process cathartic, even when recalling unpleasant events, likening it to telling “war stories.” [22:01]

5. Enduring Effects of Bullying

• Recounts being tormented by a trio of girls in childhood—a major theme in her novel Cat's Eye, resonating widely with readers.
• Realized power dynamics in bullying are often based on the victim’s belief in the oppressor’s power:
  • “The power of those people is dependent on your believing that they have that power.” [23:32]
• On revenge and forgiveness:
  • Quotes Nelson Mandela’s philosophy of letting go versus the temptation of revenge. [26:24]
  • Admits to “marginally mean things” in adolescence but finds the greater liberation in reclaiming personal power. [27:15]

6. On Enemies and the Hero/Monster Dynamic

• Atwood enjoys the idea of having enemies:
  • “If you didn’t have any, what sort of boring person are you?” [02:39], [29:54]
• Why heroes need monsters:
  • “What would a monster need a hero for? Because it's the hero's quest to slay the monster...to be a hero ... you do have to have a monster to slay.” [28:40]
  • Cautions that being a hero comes at a cost—often in the presence of real monsters. [29:37]

7. Censorship and Banned Books

• Atwood’s “unburnable” copy of The Handmaid's Tale was a statement against censorship, showing that banning fuels interest.
• Research discussed: reading frequently-banned books does not harm teens, and may increase civic engagement and love of reading. [32:13–32:34]
  • “Why do we not give awards to the book banners? Because from what you've told me, their net result is positive.” [32:45]
  • The mere existence of school libraries with engaged librarians correlates with better academic outcomes. [33:09]
• Atwood’s own “forbidden” reading as a child—much of it in secret—broadened her experience and did no harm, though “varicose veins” described in Peyton Place left a lasting impression. [36:13]

8. Writing Advice & Inspirations (Lightning Round) [39:36–41:46]

• Worst advice received:
  • “Why don’t you just forget this writing stuff... find a nice man and marry him?” [39:36]
• Favorite advice to give:
  • “You have to actually do the writing... It’s learning and it’s work.” [40:03]
• Dream dinner guests: Oscar Wilde, Nancy Mitford, possibly Samuel Johnson (“but a very piggy eater”); would not invite Emily Brontë due to her reported taciturnity. [40:34], [41:46]

9. Change, Rethinking, and Adaptability

• Atwood is continually reassessing politics and leadership (with reference to the Trump era), noting the difference between deliberate destabilization and simple unpredictability in leadership. [42:13]
• Discusses the spectrum of human goodness and badness:
  • “So the very good, the very bad, and then degrees of goodness and badness leading up to the center where most of us live.” [46:06]

10. Humor, Wit & Memorable Moments

• Memorable quips about enemies presumed dead, revenge, and why her books feature so many eggs or glass jars. [29:54], [48:02]
• Her response to a student advisor’s condescending advice: “Well, I just thought he was an idiot.” [39:58]
• Adam calling her “delightfully disagreeable” and uncancellable:
  • Atwood: “Not at my age. ... I’m not likely to say any career destroying thing and nobody can fire me.” [43:46], [44:01]
• On aging as a writer: “Writers don’t retire, they only get worse.” (with a wink); hopes to delay that as long as possible. [44:37]
• Classic Atwood humor: when asked about her hair, “If I got it done, would I do this?” [48:52]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “There isn’t a...what we used to call a soul behind what you’re reading. But it’s probably quite good at company reports, because those don’t have souls.”
  — Margaret Atwood [03:26]
• “Are you mad? Why would I do such a thing?” — On using AI for writing [13:23]
• “A hallucination has got much more to it than just factual inaccuracy. I don’t think that’s what a novelist does at all.” [15:06]
• “The power of those people is dependent on your believing that they have that power.” [23:32]
• “What would a monster need a hero for? Because it’s the hero’s quest to slay the monster. … To be a hero ... you do have to have a monster to slay.” [28:40]
• “If you didn’t have any (enemies), what sort of boring person are you?” [02:39]
• “Why do we not give awards to the book banners? Because from what you’ve told me, their net result is positive.” [32:45]
• “You have to actually do the writing. ... It’s a learning and it’s work.” [40:03]
• “Not at my age… I’m not likely to say any career destroying thing and nobody can fire me.” [43:46]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:26] — On the human soul in writing versus AI
• [05:44] — Originality and AI imitation
• [11:08] — AI misses core elements of genre
• [13:23] — Why Atwood will never write with AI
• [15:50] — “Hallucinations” vs. “errors” in AI
• [17:04] — AI’s impact on writers and creativity
• [21:12] — Decision to write a memoir
• [23:32] — Power dynamics in bullying
• [28:40] — Heroes, monsters, and the need for antagonists
• [32:45] — Research on bans and book censorship
• [39:36] — Worst and best writing advice
• [43:46] — Atwood on disagreeing, aging, and being uncancellable

Summary

This episode is a masterclass in sharp humor and creative insight from Margaret Atwood, guided by Adam Grant’s probing curiosity. The lasting message: while AI can mimic style and shuffle words, it cannot replace the intangible human depth, emotional intelligence, and individual perspective that define great art and authentic connection. Atwood’s reflections span writing, technological change, human resilience, the peculiarities of public life, and the pleasures and perils of looking backward. The episode is as thought-provoking and wryly funny as its celebrated guest, delivering both wisdom and a reminder to embrace our inimitable humanity.