ReThinking with Adam Grant

Raising a New Generation of Readers with Shannon Hale

Released: December 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features acclaimed author Shannon Hale, best known for her children’s and young adult books such as the "Princess Academy" series and her graphic novel memoirs. Adam Grant is joined by his daughter Joanna, a Hale superfan, for an engaging conversation about rekindling the love of reading among children and teens, navigating book bans, breaking down gender stereotypes in literature, and the powerful role of storytelling in building empathy. The tone is conversational, candid, and full of personal anecdotes from all three speakers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Spark Behind Hale’s Stories

• Origin Stories & Empowerment (02:15)
  • Shannon Hale shares how her daughter’s belief that “Princesses don’t wear black” inspired stories empowering girls:

    “Her concept of a princess is just a girl coming into her full power. So if you limit what a princess can do, you’re limiting what a girl can do."
    (Shannon Hale, 02:15)

Hale’s Journey as a Writer

• Early Love for Storytelling & Rejection (05:37)
  • Shannon wrote from age 10 but published her first novel at 29, describing years of rejection and resilience:

    “For two years... I was literally mailing in manuscripts and then getting letters in the mail saying ‘no, no, no.’”
    (Shannon Hale, 06:37)

  • Her breakthrough came with "The Goose Girl," initially rejected by all major publishers, later a teen favorite.

Encouraging a New Generation of Readers

• Finding the Right Books for Each Reader (09:03)

  • Hale stresses the importance of validating all forms of reading—from graphic novels to fan fiction—against the culture of shaming preferences:

    “All reading is reading... Audiobooks are reading, reading fan fiction on your phone is reading, validating all forms of reading is so important.”
    (Shannon Hale, 09:03)

• The Role of Choice and Libraries (11:11)

  • Empowering kids through choice is crucial. Hale encourages parents to use libraries, giving kids autonomy via their own library cards:

    “Getting your kid their own library card as soon as they’re old enough and putting the choice in their hands is a way to help them take control of their own reading life.”
    (Shannon Hale, 11:11)

  • Parents are also urged to reconnect with their childhood reading interests.

The Decline in Recreational Reading & School Influence

• Statistics and School Assignments (10:29, 14:24)
  • Adam notes the drop in leisure reading and parents reading to children.
  • Both Joanna and Shannon recount how rigid, outdated school reading lists make reading a chore, not a joy:

    “No one told me that in order to be a smart grownup, you have to only read things that are miserable and sad, but that’s still the information that I absorbed.”
    (Shannon Hale, 12:43)

Why Do School Curriculums Resist Change?

• The Role of Parental Fear & Tradition (14:50)
  • Hale links curricular stagnancy to parental comfort with familiar, traditional books versus contemporary, relevant options:

    “Parents are so afraid of books that if you change the curriculum... they look at them so closely and they start to object to the content... But parents have to get on board and trust the teachers and librarians.”
    (Shannon Hale, 14:50)

Gender, Empathy, and Book Bans

• How Gender Stereotypes Shape Reading Habits (22:00)

  • Shannon describes how books about boys are for everyone, but books about girls are deemed “for girls,” limiting boys’ exposure and empathy:

    “Because reading stories is this great exercise in empathy, what we’re really communicating is... boys, you are only expected to have empathy for boys. And in fact, there’s something shameful about having empathy for girls.”
    (Shannon Hale, 23:04)

  • She cites powerful examples of how boys benefit from reading books with female protagonists.

• Book Bans as Empathy Control (28:59, 32:43)

  • Many banned books are by or about women, LGBTQ individuals, or people of color. Hale argues book bans often aim to limit who children empathize with:

    “There is a movement... to try to limit who their kids learn to empathize with. There Is a power dynamic at play when you can control the narrative, when you can control who gets to have stories told about them, who gets to be the hero.”
    (Shannon Hale, 28:59)

  • Adam draws a distinction between watching movie heroines (like Wonder Woman) and reading about them—the immersive empathy-building power of books is unique and can provoke societal anxieties.

• Memoir, Vulnerability, and Connection (32:43)

  • Hale highlights how her graphic novel memoirs allowed readers (especially children) to see themselves and feel understood, despite adult skepticism about their content.

Parental Involvement & Building Resilience

• Empathy vs. Enmeshment (35:31)
  • Adam references Brene Brown on the risk of parents over-identifying with their children’s struggles, potentially impeding resilience. Hale supports the idea that parents should strive for compassionate presence without becoming emotionally enmeshed.

Writing Advice and Lightning Round (41:39)

• On Writing

  • Worst advice: “Only write what you know.”
  • Best advice: “Snacks. Choose your snacks carefully and use them as rewards. You are a dog learning to sit and heel. When you finish this page, you get a cracker.”
    (Shannon Hale, 41:57)
  • Encourages play, journaling, and making “bad art” just for the joy of it.

• On Making Art & Rethinking

  • Hale has shifted from binary thinking to embracing spectrums and complexity.

• Dinner Party Guests

  • Dream guests include Jane Austen and comedians, reflecting her love of humor.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On book bans and empathy:

  “A book is a safe way to engage with mature concepts.... It actually protects kids by giving them more information and understanding and resources than not reading it.”
  (Shannon Hale, 14:50)

• On the power of representation:

  “When you see yourself in a character, then you’re getting validated and you understand yourself a little bit better. And when you don’t see yourself in a character, you understand other people a little bit better.”
  (Shannon Hale, 32:43)

• Joanna’s moving testimony:

  “Your books have had a profound impact on me... I just wanted to say you’ve been a very big part of my life, even if you didn’t know it.”
  (Joanna, 44:07)

Notable Timestamps

• Origin of the ‘Princess in Black’ series: 02:15
• Shannon’s path to becoming a writer and facing rejection: 05:37–08:38
• On kids’ reading decline and what adults can do: 09:03–12:43
• How school curriculums affect the love of reading: 14:24–16:32
• Discussion on gender, empathy, and book marketing: 22:00–27:21
• Books vs. movies for building empathy: 28:59–32:43
• Memoir writing, vulnerability, and connection: 32:43–35:31
• Lightning round (writing advice, dinner party guests, rethinking): 41:39–43:47

Tone and Takeaways

• The conversation is warm, personal, and humorous—Shannon Hale’s openness about rejection, creativity, and parenting makes the discussion accessible and encouraging.
• The importance of validating all forms of reading, giving children choice, and parents and educators modeling a love of reading and imperfection is stressed throughout.
• The role of stories in developing empathy—especially across gender lines—and the societal implications of limiting access to diverse narratives are central themes.
• The episode closes with mutual gratitude and recognition of the invisible but powerful connection between writer and reader, leaving listeners with hope and concrete advice for encouraging reading and creativity in their own lives.