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- [00:00]
Bill Ready
Only Boost Mobile Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone. New 5G phone?
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Walmart Business Host
Enough.
- [00:07]
Bill Ready
But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the device and service plan. Online only.
- [00:15]
Capital One Bank Guy
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC.
- [00:46]
Ted (Producer/Host)
This episode is sponsored by Stripe AI companies have unique business models, each with distinct billing needs. Stripe is the go to choice for AI leaders from early stage startups to scaled enterprises. With Stripe billing, you can support any business model and easily align your monetization.
- [01:02]
Adam Grant
Strategy with customer value.
- [01:04]
Ted (Producer/Host)
Join the ranks of 78% of the Forbes AI 50 and millions of businesses worldwide that trust Stripe to help them build more profitable scalable businesses. Discover more@swepe.com I think of AI as.
- [01:18]
Bill Ready
A really powerful genie that sometimes grants wishes in ways you might not expect. And if the genie could be asked to go maximize your view time, like why can't we try to tune the AI to help you feel better and maximize time well spent instead of total time spent?
- [01:36]
Adam Grant
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant.
- [01:38]
Ted (Producer/Host)
Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the Science of what Makes Us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. Bill Reddy is the CEO of Pinterest and a passionate advocate for making social media safer and less stressful for everyone. Young people in particular.
- [02:02]
Bill Ready
I think social media as currently configured is unsafe for kids under 16. Full stop. Well, I want to prove there's a different business model that you can actually make money on positivity that you can do well by doing good. If we can prove that, I hope we can change the basis of competition.
- [02:18]
Ted (Producer/Host)
I met Bill at a dinner earlier this year where he made a powerful case against social media companies using enragement to drive engagement. He shared his vision for a better alternative. So that's where I wanted to start.
- [02:35]
Adam Grant
What's your issue with engagement via enragement? Because you kind of stand out among your peers on that front, yeah.
- [02:41]
Bill Ready
Well, thank you for that. You know, when I came in as CEO of Pinterest three years ago, that's one of the biggest opportunities I saw was to try to prove that there could be a more positive business model in social media and that it didn't have to be just engagement via enragement. I think that social media deeply has that sort of core to the business model and has had for more than a decade. And I think that, you know, we see the harms all around us of what has happened with that. I think nowhere more than with our young people, where you look at the rising rates of anxiety and depression amongst young people. And, you know, I think at the core of that is that social media uses AI to maximize your view time. And it figures out pretty quickly that you look longer at the things that are your triggers, whatever your triggers are. And so, you know, whether it's that politician that gets you really fired up, or whether it's somebody else's fake perfect life that you can't possibly live up to, it figures out how to show you those things to maximize your view time. This sort of really happened around 2014, 2015 or so I'd say, where social media switched from a chronological feed of what your friends posted to what an algorithm thought you should see. And that's when it started to become more and more negative.
- [03:49]
Adam Grant
We're much better at diagnosing the problem than we are at solving it, which is, I think, where you come in. So what does tuning for positivity actually look like on Pinterest?
- [03:58]
Bill Ready
The analogy I always use is we've all had the example of sitting in a traffic jam, and we know when we get to the front of the traffic jam, we shouldn't look at the car crash, Right? But what do we all do? We get to the front, we're like, I sat here for 45 minutes, I want to know what happened. We sneak a peek at the car crash, and these algorithms learn, oh, you looked at the car crash. I'll show you another car crash. Oh, you looked at that one, too. I'll show you another one. Until eventually it's all car crashes. And that's sort of the world that we're living in right now, social media. And so part of tuning the AI for positivity was, well, what if instead of tuning for this sort of instinctual reaction, this sort of downstairs brain reaction, what if we appealed to conscious thought? In that same analogy, if you ask someone after the car crash, would you like to see another one of those the vast majority of people would say, no, that was terrible, I don't want to see another one of those. But users aren't getting that choice. It's just if you looked at it, you're going to see more of it. Well, one of the ways that we went after tuning AI for positivity was to say, what are the things that you explicitly said you wanted to see again, what did you save? What did you click on? What did you engage with in some way that was part of conscious thought? And as soon as we started tuning for that, totally different content rose to the top. Instead of being triggering content, it was self help videos and DIY and things that would actually get you engaging in the real world versus just being glued to a screen. And when you measure how people feel after that time spent, they feel better because users were actually pretty good at wanting more of the things that were good for them. When you appeal to their downstairs brain, people weren't very good at like, oh yeah, we still look at the car crash every time we get to the front of the traffic jam, but if you ask us, we'll make a healthier choice. And so there's a lot more to do, but it's proven out to be quite effective.
- [05:43]
Adam Grant
So another way of describing what you've done is you've basically said, look. Instead of appealing to system one, the hot visceral impulse to look at the things that you may not enjoy, but that immediately capture your attention, you're going to engage with system two, find out what people value as opposed to just what, what activates their immediate emotions.
- [06:05]
Bill Ready
That's right.
- [06:06]
Adam Grant
And then the hope is that they'll come back for better reasons and even if they spend less time on the platform, they're going to enjoy it more or they're going to feel like it was more worthwhile.
- [06:16]
Bill Ready
That's right. And so we're going after time well spent instead of time spent.
- [06:20]
Adam Grant
Oh, that's a great distinction.
- [06:21]
Bill Ready
Yeah. And so if we help you go do something in the real world, you know, help you put together that outfit that's going to make you walk a little taller for the event that you're going to, or help you put together a great meal to host your friends, that's not going to keep you glued to a screen, but you're going to have a really great experience and say, oh, well, Pinterest is a great place for me to go for another one of those. And so we want to be part of a healthier social media diet. And I think actually with Gen Z. Gen Z is now more than 40% of our users. It's our largest, fastest growing demographic. And that is in spite of us having done things that actually turns social features off for a lot of those users. So if I go deeper into other things that we have done, you know, we're the only social media platform that is private only for users under 16. And when I say private only, it's not a feature you can re enable, you know, because it was clear to me that it wasn't safe for users under 16 to be contacted by strangers online. And I also thought that not only was that a right thing to do, I was hopeful that there would be real consumer demand for a safer space. And when we made that change, our stock price actually dropped by 20% when we did that, because people thought it was just going to wreck us with young users. And a year later, we nearly doubled. And it actually became. One of the defining reasons that we are winning with young users is that while there's all this talk of how Gen Z is struggling with rising rates of anxiety and depression, I think they're more in tune than ever with the fact that social media isn't good for them. In fact, 48%, you know, Pew Research that came out said 48% of Gen Z knows that social media isn't good for them, but they can't necessarily quit it because it's become a collective action problem where their friends are there, so they have to be there. But they are. And this was my hope, that they do want to find ways to make healthier choices. So as we gave them an option for healthier choice of like, oh, here's a private space where you can figure out who you want to be that's not comparative and performative. That actually really resonated with users. And so we're starting to tap into sort of some of these other things that we started with. How do we tune the AI for positivity? How do we, you know, optimize more for intentional choices that users will figure out more what's good for them? And then also addressing some of these things, like the comparative performative nature of social media that has led to a lot of unhealthy behaviors to say, okay, well, let's go do something different than that. Let's go give users a space to figure themselves out that can be sort of a space away from the noise to figure out who they want to be. And that's really, really resonated.
- [08:54]
Adam Grant
So you must be John Heights, Dream CEO then.
- [08:57]
Bill Ready
Yes, I collaborate with with John quite a bit, as well as many other researchers in the space. Because, you know, we're hopeful that not only can we make these changes for Pinterest, you know, I'd like to see this industry change. And this had already become central to our reason for being when I came in as CEO three years ago. This is one of the key things I thought it was part of the opportunity. You know, I've got a young daughter, she's 11 years old. I'm terrified of the day that she's old enough to be on social media. So it's personal. I want to fix this for her as well as everybody else's young people. You know, I'd love to see a world where social media companies were competing on their safety records the same way the auto manufacturers now compete on theirs.
- [09:35]
Adam Grant
I would love that. And I want to understand better why the industry has been so slow to change given that the consternation and frankly, the outrage at the outrage machine is palpable at this point. Let me give you a specific example that really surprised me.
- [09:52]
Ted (Producer/Host)
The snap map. Kids can see where their friends are, which means they can see if they're being left out of a group or didn't get invited to a party. You can hide your location, but you can't hide other people's locations. So it's an easy way to ruin your day.
- [10:06]
Adam Grant
And I just cannot fathom why a CEO wouldn't change that, especially for kids. Can you help me understand what is going on here? Why are other CEOs not taking action?
- [10:18]
Bill Ready
I don't know that all of these negative externalities were clear in the beginning for these companies. Right. You know, rewind the clock 10 years. And the public discourse was social media is helping us know our neighbors better, helping us, you know, reconnect with long lost friends and helping democracies rise up and all these things. And then it really, really shifted. I think there was a move to design for addictive behaviors. You know, there were classes at Stanford that taught how to trigger dopamine releases through product design. And so I think that some of these things were unintended consequences. And by the time people realized it, there were so many billions of dollars locked into the business model that it was hard for people to change. And I think we're past the point of being able to say for some of these platforms, it's an unintended consequence. You know, when you talk about things like, you know, ranking you amongst your friend groups or those kinds of things like that's directly trying to monetize teen anxiety. And what gives me hope is that when you have these sort of business models set in, it can be really hard to change them. But change can happen. It's not that long ago that you had major auto manufacturers saying that seat belts were against the business model. Now that sounds absurd to say now. It's crazy, but that was a huge, huge public debate 45, 50 years ago. And two things happened. One thing was that you did have some thoughtful legislation that mandated seatbelts, but also things like crash test ratings. So you had a standard then that people could measure against. Simultaneously, you had some auto manufacturers start to build brands around safety. Volvo goes and creates the three point safety belt and builds a whole brand around the safety of their cars. And fast forward a couple decades and you go from the industry saying seatbelts are against the business model to every major auto manufacturer competing on their safety record. Because as a consumer, you don't want to just put your family in the car that meets the safety standard or the crash test rating. You want to put your family in the car that beats it by the most. And so now they compete on that. So that's where I have hope that if we can start to, one, demonstrate that it's possible through a free market solution, that as we provide a more positive alternative, consumers will choose that. We've also advocated for thoughtful regulation around these things because I do think I'm a capitalist, but I do think this is an example of a market failure where you have a race to the bottom happening and you probably do need a thoughtful baseline. And in the same way that you don't have regulation dictating every sensor and airbag that's in the car. Now, you don't need regulation that goes down to that level, but can you create a common standard that measures, say, impact on emotional well being and then let all of us be held accountable to that and then compete on that? I think it's possible.
- [13:13]
Adam Grant
So are you saying that Pinterest is going to be the Volvo of social media?
- [13:18]
Bill Ready
I would take that. You know, I think this is one of the most important issues of our time. Right. And so what I'm hoping we can do is not just build a big business, but actually create a movement around this. And you know, I'd love it if 20 or 30 years from now I can look back and say, yeah, not just as a CEO, but as a dad, as a human, that we made a dent in that problem.
- [13:40]
Ted (Producer/Host)
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- [15:37]
Capital One Tech Team
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- [16:16]
Adam Grant
So I want to get a clearer picture of what tuning for positivity actually looks like. Do you have favorite examples of how that's played out on Pinterest of late?
- [16:25]
Bill Ready
Yes, so I'll give you a few more. So for example, we do diversity by default in Our feeds, we do body type ranges, we do skin tone ranges, hair pattern searches, things like that. And so fashion and beauty and things like that are big on our platform. But when we started showing more what the average person looks like instead of what the average fashion model looks like, that was actually good for user engagement, you know, and they can actually choose a body type range and say, well, hey, this is my body type. Show me more things and more people so I can get a sense for what this might look like on me. And, you know, we serve 570 million-plus users around the world. They come from all different backgrounds, all different walks of life. And so them being able to see things are more tailored to them, you know, it's a great experience. It's the right thing to do and it's good for business. It's doing well by doing good.
- [17:15]
Adam Grant
You said something surprising a minute ago. You said you hope other companies will follow your lead. Isn't that bad for business if this is effective, Isn't it a differentiation strategy? And aren't you hoping that other social media companies will continue to enrage people a little bit?
- [17:32]
Bill Ready
There are few gifts better than a worthy competitor. I would love to see somebody step up and compete with us on how to do more for positivity because, like, it will actually push us to up our game. You know, you look at this in athletics, you know, how important was it for Larry Bird and Magic Johnson to each have each other to push them harder? Like, I'd love to see others, you know, come along and do the same thing. One, because I want to see this become something that changes industry wide. But I want us to do more good and I think that would help us to up our game.
- [18:02]
Adam Grant
Spoken like a capitalist. Let's talk a little bit about social media and phones in schools. My read of the evidence is this is a net positive to get phones out of schools.
- [18:15]
Bill Ready
Absolutely.
- [18:16]
Adam Grant
One of my favorite studies I saw recently was Sarah Abrahamson, who studied over 400 middle schools in Norway where after smartphone bans, bullying went down for both boys and girls. And also girls had better grades and fewer mental health problems. It doesn't get more clear cut than that.
- [18:35]
Bill Ready
Right.
- [18:36]
Adam Grant
If we get smartphones out of schools, kids learn more and, well being in relationships improve. So what are we waiting for?
- [18:43]
Ted (Producer/Host)
Why has this been so hard?
- [18:45]
Adam Grant
Especially when in the US the majority of parents think that this is a good idea?
- [18:50]
Bill Ready
Well, I think that, you know, fortunately this is a nonpartisan issue. It's got support on both sides of the aisle and, you know, you look at states like Arkansas that, you know, went to phone free schools and they're seeing similar outcomes. Right. So it's not just in other countries is happening Here in the US, Arkansas is a great example. But you know, I've talked to governors of Arkansas and Kentucky, California, New York, Florida, Virginia, and as these things are progressing, you hear consistently these improved outcomes. My daughter's own school finally went phone free. For a little while I was like, hey, I'm advocating for this very publicly and like, you know, how do I make sure my own daughter's school gets there? And you know, there's a lot of anxiety before making that change. Right. Because it's a collective action problem. You know, people have a fear of missing out. And so that makes it sort of a very sort of high anxiety decision to let go of that phone. And they've become addictive. Right? So it's high anxiety to let go of it. And so if you talk to any of the schools that have implemented this, they'll say they went through this sort of wave of like high anxiety, a lot of debate to actually get it in place from parents, from students, from teachers. You know, the teachers don't want to have to wrestle with the students. The parents, you know, don't want to have to wrestle with the kids. The kids are worried about, you know, letting go of their device that has become addictive. But once you get through that anxiety and cross that chasm on the other side of it, very quickly, all those constituents feel better. And you know, at our own school, when this was implemented, one of the things that you heard the teachers talk about, they're like, it sounds like a school again. Because when the kids are in between classes, like they're talking to each other, they're interacting with one another instead of like the bell rings and they're looking at their phone and they're probably, you know, texting or chatting with the person right next to them and doing it on their device. Now they're talking to each other again and it sounds like a school and you hear the sounds of childhood again. And so I think the benefit on the other side is like massively clear. And I think that's why there is growing momentum around this. And they're starting to become really good blueprints for how to do this, how to address the, the concerns that people have, how to cross that chasm of anxiety. And you know, every single example where this happens and you get that benefit, I think is another sort of great bit of momentum in that movement. But there's A lot more to go.
- [21:09]
Adam Grant
Yeah, I think so too. You know, I remember when I posted some of the evidence on the benefits of phone bans, the most common concern raised by parents was, but what if there's a school shooting? First of all, you do not need a smartphone in that circumstance. Right. You can have a dumb phone and still reach them. But secondly, if your kid is in danger on campus because there's a school shooting, you are not gonna be able to get to campus. And I have not found a single example of a smartphone saving a kid during a situation like that. There are just devastating, tragic examples of a kid's smartphone going off when they're hiding from a shooter and that alerting the shooter to their location. So if anything, this is peace of mind for parents. That doesn't actually keep kids safe, as far as I can tell.
- [21:56]
Bill Ready
Yeah, I think, you know, first of all, it's horrific and tragic that students and parents have to worry about those kinds of things. And if you talk to school safety experts, one of the things that they will say exactly to your point is that if they're in a situation where there's an active shooter, you don't want that kid being distracted by incoming calls or things like that. You want them focused and paying attention to what school leaders are telling them to do to get them to safety as quickly as possible and not being distracted by that phone. And you know, as a parent myself, like, it's horrifying to even think of that situation. And of course, you want to know as fast as possible that your kid's okay, but knowing as fast as possible is different than actually what is the safest, best thing for them. But as this movement has gained steam, I think there's been a lot of good debate and discourse, and then there's really good answers to what have been, you know, the biggest concerns and objections. Safety being one of those where it's actually safer for the student to be following the instructions from school leaders in that situation.
- [22:59]
Adam Grant
That makes a lot of sense. I understand you're actually testing a new prompt to get kids off of Pinterest during school hours.
- [23:06]
Bill Ready
That's right. I believe in free market solutions. I also believe that, you know, you may need some thoughtful regulation in these places to support that, but we're not sitting around waiting for that. So as much as I've advocated for phone free schools, I've also said, like, well, what can we do? How can we help this? One of the things that we've done is, you know, when a user opens Pinterest if they're under 18, they open Pinterest during school hours, we will give them a prompt and that says, hey, we love you, come see us after school. And beyond that, we'll actually give them a link to turn off all the notifications on their device during those school hours because again, it's not just us if we turn off ours, but then they're still getting tons of notifications from everybody else is messaging them and all these things. They can't focus. And so what we've seen is that there's real benefit into taking a long view of investing in the health and wellbeing of our users. And so that's a good example of like, yep, there's a little bit of a leap of faith that if we do the right thing now, that'll actually be good for us in the long term. You know, we're proving a real business on time well spent instead of maximizing the total time spent.
- [24:12]
Adam Grant
Well, that sounds like a coded version of hey Mark, hey Evan, come at.
- [24:17]
Bill Ready
Me to this point of wanting to change the industry. You know, we created a thing called the Inspired Internet Pledge and we did that in collaboration with Boston Children's Hospital on the digital Wellness Lab there where we're committing to consistently measure our impact on emotional well being of our users, committing to improve over time and publish our results. Basically telling people here's what we did that worked in hopes that other people will follow. We're still the only social media company that does private only for under 16 where you can't turn it back off. But we have seen since then other companies have started to give more controls for choosing a more private experience experience things like that. And I think they've not gone as far but as progress and we welcome that progress. Again as a dad, as a citizen like I want to see that progress across the industry.
- [25:09]
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- [25:35]
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- [26:04]
Capital One Bank Guy
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- [26:35]
Adam Grant
Let's go to a lightning round. Best career advice you've ever gotten.
- [26:39]
Bill Ready
So it came in the form of a rhetorical question. An early mentor asked me, hey, Bill, with whom do you build your army? Do you want the conscripted? Do you want mercenaries or do you want freedom fighters? And instinctually, for me, the answer was freedom fighters. But, you know, he said to me, like, well, hey, Bill, not everybody chooses that. You should know the freedom fighters will give you more than anybody else, but your mission better be real. They will call you on your bullshit in a second if it's not real. And so if you want to have freedom fighters, you better have a real mission and you better walk the walk. But if you do that, they'll give you more than anybody.
- [27:12]
Adam Grant
That's powerful. Bill, tell me, what's the worst career advice you've ever gotten?
- [27:17]
Bill Ready
I think growth as a strategy. You know, growth is not a strategy. I mean, I think that's been pretty pervasive in Silicon Valley. Growth at all costs. And I think in Silicon Valley, where you have all these platforms with hundreds of millions or billions of users, the customer has become sort of nameless and faceless. And so you get these like, dystopian sounding conversations, like, harvesting value from users when it's like, wait a minute, like, these are, these are real people. These are human beings. Like, if they were standing here in front of you, could you look them in the eye and make that case? I grew up in a little town in Kentucky. My parents had a little auto repair shop. And when I worked in that shop with them, like, I had to go face the customers. And if I messed up, I had to explain to them what I did and how I was going to make it right. And so I try to gauge my decisions on like, well, I still see all those users looking back at me. About 570 million of them. So I don't get to actually talk to all of them, but if I was looking them in the eye, could I explain what I did and why I thought it was right? And I think that's missing. And I think it's a way better strategy than growth at all costs.
- [28:15]
Adam Grant
Well, there's a vision for leadership development. Nobody becomes CEO without working customer service first.
- [28:20]
Bill Ready
I love that.
- [28:22]
Adam Grant
Who are your dream dinner guests?
- [28:24]
Bill Ready
I think we're in a moment in AI where there's been a lot of comparisons to nuclear. So talking to like a Robert Oppenheimer or somebody who was early there and sort of thinking through, like, hey, here's this thing that's amazing technology. How do you think through ways that could be world changing or potentially harmful? I think that would be a super interesting conversation to have, I think is appropriate for this moment in time with what we're thinking about with AI and tremendous upside, but also, you know, potential tremendous downside as well.
- [28:51]
Adam Grant
All right, what's the question you have for me?
- [28:54]
Bill Ready
I talked about how we're trying to create a movement around this. And one of the things I see happening is simultaneously, I think there's hope that change is possible, but I also see acceptance that there's a lot of people that think the negativity of social media was just the way it is. And so I'd love your take as an organizational psychologist as to how do you get people past that antipathy and sort of getting them to see like, you don't have to accept this and trying to change that viewpoint to turn that into more of a movement.
- [29:25]
Adam Grant
This was the central question of think again. What does it take to change our own minds and how can we invite other people to do the same? First of all, my biggest takeaway around opening other people's minds was that listening is more persuasive than talking. When people are resistant to change, when they're. When they've really dug their heels in, you're better off, you know, trying to understand their hesitations and, you know, engaging in what psychologists call a motivational interview to try to help them uncover their own reasons for change. And hands down, the most influential version of that that I've ever done is just asking what evidence would change your mind. I would sit down with, you know, whether it's a social media CEO or a policymaker or, you know, a school leader, and just ask them, what proof would you have to see to persuade you that we need to shift the way that we're, you know, running These, these businesses, or we need to change our policies or we shouldn't stick to the way we've always done it and just, you know, let kids run wild with phones and social media and then they'll walk through the evidence that they find compelling and then you can start to introduce them to data and real cases that are happening, like live case studies that are underway right now that meet their terms, as opposed to trying to shove the, the data that you find compelling down their throat. That's, that's where I would begin.
- [30:49]
Bill Ready
Yeah, it's a great insight.
- [30:50]
Adam Grant
Try it at your own risk.
- [30:53]
Bill Ready
Super helpful.
- [30:54]
Adam Grant
Let's talk a little bit about leadership before we wrap today. So DEI is under attack. I've had some concerns that we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And I think from things I've heard you say in the past, you share those concerns. Yes, of course you don't want to engage in reverse discrimination at Pinterest from a hiring standpoint, but you still want to give opportunities to people who have been historically denied them. Of course, you don't want to favor any one group, but you also want to work really hard to include people who might feel marginalized. So what does that landscape look like inside Pinterest today?
- [31:29]
Bill Ready
Yeah, so a couple things I'd say, first of all is that advancing diversity, inclusion is not in conflict with meritocracy. In fact, quite the opposite. You know, there's 8 billion people in this world. Great talent comes from all different backgrounds, all different walks of life. And so, you know, we're in a hyper competitive space. And I would say with Pinterest specifically, we've seen in the nearly three years I've been CEO, we've objectively become much more inclusive and much more diverse. More than half my executive team is women. Our director plus population, which are the senior managers in the company, 52% women. I think we've built one of the most diverse teams in tech by every objective measure. And simultaneously we've created a revival of the platform and have outperformed others in our space over that time period. And I think our focus on inclusion and belonging to has given us an unfair share of great talent because we are focusing on making sure that people from every different background and walk of life can come here and be successful and that they're going to be able to thrive here. And I think that's actually contributing to our results. So again, I think this debate that has been happening out there of like, oh, well, are you going to have meritocracy or are you going to have diversity and inclusion? It's like, nope, a meritocracy done properly must be diverse and inclusive because talent comes from all different backgrounds. And inclusion and diversity done properly are going to be enhancing of a meritocracy because you're going to find more talent from more different places. And I think that's just been lost in the debate. It's actually good for business. And you know, one other personal anecdote I'd share with this, I was first in my family to go to college. I needed Pell Grants to go to college. Pell Grants, if you're not familiar with those, it's for students that are below the poverty line. And had it not been for things like being able to rece scholarships, being able to receive Pell Grants, I might not have ever been able to go to college. And, you know, getting to Silicon Valley and building things for billions of users is like, might as well have been the other side of the universe. So I think we need to continue investing in looking for talent from all different backgrounds and looking to find ways to help talent succeed that may not have had all the same sort of pathways that others may have. And you may get some really surprising and positive outcomes from that. And I've seen that in my own life. I've seen that in many people I've worked with as well.
- [33:57]
Adam Grant
Yeah, that really resonates. So two things that it surfaces for me. First of all, your comments about the rationale for diversity and inclusion. They track with some classic research by Eliel and Thomas where they basically found there are three reasons that leaders gave for adopting these kinds of initiatives. There was promoting fairness and preventing discrimination. There was access and legitimacy, which is, hey, look at our user base. We've got to represent them. And then there was integration and learning, which is where you started. There are people with all kinds of different backgrounds can teach us things. And the argument there was that all of these perspectives can convince people to adopt, you know, diversity and inclusion initiatives. And in fact, depending on your audience, you might have more success with one argument than another. But ultimately you have to believe in the integration and learning message in order to leverage the benefits of diversity. Like, if you think you're, you're just bringing people in because it's the right thing to do, or you're just bringing them in because you need to represent your user or customer base. You're not going to learn as much from their novel perspectives. You're not going to leverage their diversity of thought. You're not going to have your assumptions challenged and surface the kinds of debates that actually challenge your thinking. So I think you're onto something here.
- [35:13]
Bill Ready
Yeah. And again, I'm hoping we can prove that there's really good business in it. A specific thing that we've done is that one of the things that we hire for is resilience. Right. You know, as an entrepreneur, as a business builder, I think resilience is one of the biggest predictors of success for employees, you know, that we hire. And I added that to our hiring criteria when I came in. Well, if you think about resilience, where does that come from? It's going to come from a lot of non traditional places. You know, you look at Silicon Valley, immigrants are disproportionately represented amongst successful entrepreneurs. Well, why is that? They went through tremendous adversity to make their way to this country. You hear these stories of coming over with $20 in their pocket, but then finding a way to go do something. I think that resilience is a huge predictor. And if you're willing to sort of think a little bit differently about how might people build resilience, you're going to find that like, oh, yeah, not only do you get diversity of thought, you're going to get diversity of background and look for those ways that people found their way through despite the obstacles. Boy, those are the people, sort of the underdog kind of mentality. Those are the people I want on the team because they're going to find their way through simultaneously. You also want to acknowledge, like, might there be things you need to do to help them get through? I think I had to demonstrate good bit of resilience to get from where I started to where I am now. But I needed some of those things like Pell Grants that were going to help me be able to afford college. I still worked two or three jobs at a time to put myself through school, but boy, I don't know if I could have done a fourth job if I hadn't had the Pell Grants to help me. So you need to be thinking about those kinds of things too.
- [36:49]
Adam Grant
Yeah. This is why whenever I hire, I don't just want to know what have you achieved? I also want to know what have you overcome.
- [36:55]
Bill Ready
Absolutely right.
- [36:57]
Adam Grant
Okay, so last question. So you, you had this formative experience of working as a mechanic in your dad's auto body shop.
- [37:06]
Bill Ready
That's right.
- [37:06]
Ted (Producer/Host)
How old were you?
- [37:07]
Adam Grant
Thirteen when you started? Is that even legal?
- [37:10]
Bill Ready
Yeah. Well, so it's an auto repair shop. And what I would say is like, 13 is when I got to start working in the front of the shop before that, Even in Kentucky, below 13 was sort of frowned upon. So I sort of worked in the back of the shop before that. But, you know, it was a great formative experience. Some of the best lessons that have helped me in Silicon Valley, you know, I got in a little town in Kentucky because, like, oh, I had to face customers in the eye. I remember I was about 13 years old and it was a farm community, and so I'd messed up on a farmer's truck. And I'm thinking, my parents are going to go explain to them, you know, what happened. And they both said to me, no, you go tell them what you did and what you're going to do to make it right. And if you're imagining, like a Norman Rockwell painting here of, like, oh, the farmer, like, pats me on the head and says, oh, son, it's all okay. No, he needed that truck for his livelihood, to feed his family. He wasn't happy about it. And I remember, you know, knees knocking, lump in my throat, having to explain to him what I did and like, like, you know, him telling me what it meant to him and his family. And it's like, okay, boy. Because I'd made a careless mistake. I sure thought twice the next time because, like, oh, it had a real impact on somebody's life. Well, all these things we talked about, of how I think about what we do for users on our platform, I see all of them looking back at me the same as I did with that farmer in his truck. And I still get a bit of that lump in my throat, knees knocking. But I want to make sure I'm doing everything I can to do what's right by them. But some of the best lessons were, you know, in that little town in Kentucky, working in a little auto repair shop.
- [38:35]
Adam Grant
Wow. I think there are going to be a lot of people who listen to this conversation and think, maybe tech CEOs aren't as bad as I thought.
- [38:44]
Bill Ready
We are all fallible people. We're each fallible in our own ways. And while I think you can look at some disappointing decisions by some leaders, I think you also see a growing movement of people that want to do the right thing has been part of how we've picked up a lot of great talent. I also think it's really important to win the right way and to think about the unintended consequences. And there are still people in the Valley that really want to change the world for the better. And we don't always get it right. But I think there are a lot of people that like that is what, what drives them and that gives me hope.
- [39:13]
Adam Grant
Well, I'm delighted that you're one of them. It gives me hope too, for social media. Bill, I thank you.
- [39:20]
Bill Ready
Thank you so much. Appreciate you having me.
- [39:25]
Adam Grant
Two things really stuck with me from Bill.
- [39:28]
Ted (Producer/Host)
One, social media algorithms should prioritize the.
- [39:31]
Adam Grant
Quality of experience over the quantity of attention.
- [39:34]
Ted (Producer/Host)
Two, to stay in touch with their employees and customers experiences every leader should work.
- [39:40]
Adam Grant
Customer Service Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant.
- [39:49]
Ted (Producer/Host)
The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Walter Winnick and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hilasch, Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika, Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Layton Brown.
- [40:16]
Adam Grant
Well, Bill, I have to tell you, this whole idea of running early is completely foreign to me. I showed up yesterday for a zoom three minutes late and my colleagues asked if I was okay because it was so much ahead of when I would normally arrive. You run early. I had to wonder, is your name a factor in that people expect you to be ready?
- [40:36]
Bill Ready
Yeah, it's definitely heard it a few times, but I don't mind it. Good to be memorable in some way.
- [40:43]
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