Whitney Wolfe Herd (2:30)

You know, my whole goal is like let's get you online to get you offline so you can have that real human magic take place.

Adam Grant (2:38)

I wanted to talk with her about the future of dating, but there was something else I had to ask about first. You did some rethinking recently. You stepped down from Bumble, and now you're back as CEO. So I want to hear the backstory. Why'd you leave? Why'd you return?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (2:55)

Well, I. You know, I had been in this building founder mode era since I was 22 years old, and I think it just became a part of who I was. And I had never really taken a break, ever. And if you think about the decade that we all lived through, you know, I went from Tinder to a lawsuit to starting Bumble, to building Bumble to selling Bumble, then taking Bumble public. Pandemics in the middle, two babies in the middle. All the. All the things life throws at you. And I was super burnt out. I was exhausted. And I think, you know, I woke up one morning and just didn't really feel alive anymore inside and just felt like I had lost my joy. And I love Bumble. I've always loved Bumble. But I needed to find who I was outside of Bumble. So I took a breather, and I actually had no intention of going back, Adam. But I realized, you know, with all the twists and the turns, Bumble and I, we weren't done. So I'm back with renewed purpose and perspective.

Adam Grant (4:11)

How are you different as a leader now?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (4:13)

I would say the biggest difference is there's space. I don't think Bumble is the end of the world anymore. So when I was leading the company beforehand, all I had in my mind, everything that existed on planet Earth was Bumble. It was my whole life. It was my bubble. And when I stepped away for a year, I realized that Bumble is just one component of my life. I learned how to gear shift. I was stuck in the same gear for a decade, and I came back, and now I know how to shift gears. So even in a day, we could have tough things going on. And I know how to shift out of that gear into the next gear. Compartmentalize. Have focus, have. Have clarity, have control over my thoughts. And I didn't have that before.

Adam Grant (5:00)

It sounds like, along with compartmentalizing, you also de identified a little bit with Bumble. Yeah, I'm. I'm thinking about organizational identification. And when we study it, we often use an overlapping circles measure where we say, okay, one circle is your identity as a person. The other circle is the organization's identity. Who are they, and what do they stand for? And Then are the circles totally separate? Do they partially overlap like Bumble's circle and your circle were one in the same, and now they're a little bit more separate and they overlap only partially? Is that accurate?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (5:31)

Yeah. Well, first of all, I think that's a brilliant framework. And the short answer is, for a decade, the circles were on top of each other. I don't even know where one began and the other one ended. They were completely intertwined. And it. It was suffocating probably to team members as well, because if that was my whole circle, then it was expected to be their whole circle. And now I would say that the circle's completely separated for about a year. Right. It was a forced separation where I almost went to the extreme, where I stopped wearing the Bumble hats, and I kind of took all the yellow out of my closet and really went on this, like, breakup with Bumble, if that makes sense, to force an identity reset and to really force myself to carve out my own circle. And now with me returning after a little over a year away, it was like I brought that circle together to create harmony and, like, this nice overlap, but they don't suffocate each other anymore, and they don't blend in an unhealthy way anymore. And I think that, you know, I. I really am doing my best to maintain those boundaries, because, Adam, I don't know if you've seen this, but I don't think the circles are cemented. I think they can move. And I think the more you practice keeping those circles in the place that feels healthy and. And good for you, the better. But if you lose sight of it, they can start to kind of overlap too much or pull apart too much. So I like to check in with myself. Even yesterday, I said to husband, I said, I think I'm feeling a little bit burnt out. And I just left my phone at home for two, three hours. I took a walk. I went with the kids, and I felt better afterwards. So now it's like, really making sure those circles stay in a healthy position.

Adam Grant (7:28)

I think that most of the investors and board members I know, they want CEOs and founders who. Who have no, no space between the circles. They want you to live and breathe and sleep your mission and. And your values. So tell me more about suffocation and what was so problematic about that.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (7:51)

Well, I'd have come back a much better CEO. I actually don't think it's healthy when people can't see outside of themselves or outside of their organization. I actually think it's where you start to lose sight. It's almost like you live in a vortex in a bubble, and you can't see things from the outside. The biggest gift I was given with that year plus away was I was able to see Bumble from a different altitude, from a different lens. When you're always looking at something from the inside, from the center, from the nucleus, your perspective is inherently different than being able to kind of zoom out and take a pause and step out and look at it from a different corner of the room. I do think a lot of founders, you know, a lot of them, I know a lot of them. Some of them are my best friends. It's. It's almost such an insular view that it's impossible to be the customer, it's impossible to be the competitor, it's impossible to be the naysayer. You cannot wear those shoes if you are unwilling to step out of this, like, center stage role. And candidly, I'll be frank with you, I do believe there are seasons. And starting a company, I'm not entirely sure you can get a company off the ground without that crazy obsession. I don't think Bumble would be where it was today had I not had those circles so on top of each other. But I think at a certain point, you have to outgrow it and you have to evolve and you have to allow growth to take place or you stifle your opportunity. That's my fundamental belief.

Adam Grant (9:27)

So it sounds like you're saying that whatever you might lose in terms of the sheer time and energy devoted to the company, that cost is outweighed by the benefit of having more perspective.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (9:40)

Yes. I think perspective is the most underrated asset for a CEO or for a founder.

Adam Grant (9:47)

You definitely seem less stressed now.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (9:51)

Yeah, and less stressed now. Thank God.

Adam Grant (9:53)

That's a good thing. The other thing, though, that I'm wondering about is, is there such a thing as too much perspective? There's a version of this, you know, of separating the circles that. That basically leads to, eh, Bumble's just a company. Like companies, you know, they get founded and they grow and they die, and at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (10:14)

I actually feel very opposite to that. I see Bumble as a catalyst to the thing I care most about in the world. So I see Bumble as more than a company. I see Bumble as a vehicle to deliver love to people's lives. And if I thought of it as just a mere company, I probably wouldn't be back at CEO. Candidly, Adam I would have gone and done something else. I cannot find something on planet Earth that feels more important to me than helping bring the world closer to love. Especially in this moment of division, of loneliness, of people falling in love with their chatbots. I think we are at one of the more interesting moments to lean into love in all formats. And I think I went on this quest of self love for a year, Adam, and what I realized was, oh my God, I've walked away from the most powerful vehicle I have, which is Bumble, to actually scale and facilitate love for human beings around the world. I can't let it die. So that's why I'm back, because Bumble needs to outlive me. This opportunity with Bumble is something I cannot let fail under any circumstances.

Adam Grant (11:37)

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Whitney Wolfe Herd (14:17)

Bumble is so much bigger than just an app. And I actually think apps are going to be irrelevant in a couple of years. So, you know, the, the high level goal with Bumble as a company, beyond it being an app, is to really build the world's smartest, most emotionally intelligent matchmaker. But that starts with matching you with yourself. So how do we actually use Bumble to help you get to know yourself, get to understand yourself so that you know when you're actually ready or not ready for a relationship with others? How can we use it as a vehicle to both find your person with Bumble, which is dating, and then find your people with Bumble bff, which is Bumble for friends. So I see this living both online and offline. I see this being integrated into whatever future tech we're all living with, whether that's some device we're not even familiar with yet, or if it's a humanoid in your home. I mean, Bumble will outlive the iPhone is my hope.

Adam Grant (15:12)

Wow, a future with no apps. This is such an interesting and enticing vision. One of the things I have to react to that you said a minute ago is that you wanted to scale love. And maybe I'm just overreacting to Silicon Valley speak, but I'm like, you can't scale love. The whole point of love is that it's not scalable. Does that tension bother you at all?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (15:34)

Well, I think maybe we're thinking about scale in different ways. Because scaling love, I don't mean in a social network capacity. Like more members, more downloads, more this, more that. I'm not doing the like Silicon Valley jargon. When I say that, I actually mean how do we help people like themselves Again, how do we help people out of this rut of loneliness? I think we're in a self hatred epidemic. I actually think we're walking around with people who have been trained to hate themselves through social media, through, candidly, the dating apps. Right. I think we've had a role in the disconnection and the lack of real connectivity. Right. I don't mean digitally, I mean real eye contact, real connectivity. And so I don't think Bumble's perfect right now. I don't like a lot of current Bumble, and that's what the team is actively rebuilding as we speak. But from where we started 11 years ago, there's no way to argue against the impact it's had in the world. I mean, I can't go to a grocery store without meeting Bumble couples. I literally don't go outside my house without meeting someone who met on Bumble. So it's quite magical. Or whether that was another dating app. I think, you know, one to two to four people meet online now. And so when I say let's scale love, I mean let's use the power of technology, which inherently has scale. We have millions and millions of people. How can we actually use technology and these millions of profiles that we have to bring love back online?

Adam Grant (17:14)

Glad to hear that. You know, at some level, this, this is much easier for Bumble BFF than it is for dating, because with friends, physical attraction is mostly off the table. With couples, I don't need to tell you how much more difficult it is to design to overcome that problem. And you made major headlines not too long ago with some provocative comments about how our own AI concierges are basically going to date each other. To try to screen like, okay, are you a major mismatch? Do you have deal breakers? Do you really think this is going to happen?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (17:53)

Okay, so this is hilarious. I was speaking to a couple, like top people in AI recently and they said, you know what you should do? You should build dating agents for everyone. And then the agents talk to other agents and they essentially go through thousands of agents and they declare who is right for you and who is not. And I said this and I got basically laughed off the stage, but it's not wrong. Because if you look at the way AI agents are being used in so many industries, this is already happening. People have already built this capability in other functions. And candidly, Adam, if you have the data that I have, some of the biggest complaints that people have with dating apps is dead end matches. People end up on these dates and they're like, ugh, that person is wrong for me. Like, why did I waste my time and energy going out and meeting someone who I had nothing really in Common with. You don't have to replace the humanity in love. You can actually just save people time, effort, stress, rejection, judgment by leveraging technology to actually procure better compatibility. Right. And so is this tomorrow? No. Is this a reality in the future? Certainly. And if I don't do it, somebody else will. I've already been pitched three or four companies that are doing precisely this in the last few months. So it's not that obscure when you think about it. And frankly, everyone laughed at us too in 2012 with Tinder and laughed at me with Bumble in 2014. Like, oh, you're going to meet a stranger on an app. Oh, that's so crazy. Why would anyone do that? Well, you blink. Ten years later, everyone's gotten married off one of these apps. So, you know, everything seems crazy until it doesn't.

Adam Grant (19:47)

What does this look like though? Is there essentially going to be an AI agent that's swiping left on people?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (19:53)

No, I think.

Adam Grant (19:54)

Are they going to dialog and do you arm your AI with a list of questions to ask? What does this actually mean?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (20:01)

Here's what it actually could look like. It's not so dissimilar from current day algorithms. Right. Machine learning is essentially looking at signals and matching you accordingly. Right. So it's all about. About predictability and preferences and personalization. It's not supposed to be so crazy and out there and sci fi. It's really just about better predictability. Because I think if you were to go around and chat with a bunch of singles that are using Bumble or various other apps, it's kind of needle in a haystack. You're kind of just playing a guessing game until something works out. And we don't want you to do that. We want this to be really relevant to you and productive. And back to your point about Bumble for friends. A lot of relationships start as friends first. And the reason why people become friends is because they have shared values and they have shared interests and they have shared personality quirks or they're attracted to each other's minds and spirit and the way they, they go out in the world. And so when we reimagine this and relaunch, this is actually our moonshot is like friends first and if it leads to love, spectacular. But friendship is the foundation. And I do believe that's the future of love.

Adam Grant (21:06)

So that means, though, that people are going to have to be more selective about their friends if they're fighting friends in the hopes of finding love, right?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (21:13)

Well, I don't think it's so much like that because I also think there's a lot of serendipity and spontaneity involved here. So we hear countless stories of young women or people going out and meeting someone on Bumble for Friends, and then that friend introduced them to their friend group and they fell in love with someone in that group. Had it never been for that connection on Bumble for Friends, they would have never met that person. So it doesn't have to be this direct. Like, we matched on Bumble and we fell in love because we chatted on Bumble. And so I think it really is that ripple effect of just taking the first step and making that first move and just building a connection with someone. I also think meeting people in groups is a lot easier than meeting people one on one. So, you know, it's not this awkward. Hey, are you Adam from your profile? And like sitting down at a coffee shop randomly, it's much more about showing up to that Bumble Safe Bumble event or that Bumble pickleball thing or whatever it might be, and just hanging out in community and in groups. Humans are designed to be in groups. Like, we love to be in groups. It's actually quite awkward to be one on one in the beginning. And so I think this, this like, group format is incredibly interesting.

Adam Grant (22:24)

That's fascinating. It also, I think, to your earlier point, it has the potential to kill two birds with one stone in terms of helping people overcome a little bit of loneliness. It's a lot more efficient too, thinking about all the one on one dates you could do versus showing up to meet a group of people. And you know, okay, like I've, I have somebody I'm interested in talking to, or maybe I don't, but I didn't have to meet all of them separately.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (22:48)

That's exactly right. And you know what's interesting too? If you meet in a small group, the chances, it's just math, the chances of hitting it off with someone goes up. Right.

Adam Grant (22:58)

I think this speaks to one of the other things I love about this group concept, which is, to quote the great psychologist Chris Rock, when you meet somebody for the first time, you're not just meeting them, you're meeting their representative.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (23:09)

Yes.

Adam Grant (23:10)

And I think this is a huge problem on first dates in particular, where people tend to put their best foot forward, they're on their best behavior, and you might be swayed by how they treat you and you have no idea how they treat other people. And maybe then you're starting to pay attention to how they treat the restaurant. Server or the Uber driver.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (23:28)

Right.

Adam Grant (23:29)

You get to see them in a group setting and you see how they interact with a whole bunch of people and they're not equally motivated to impress them all.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (23:36)

Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. I think we don't really know people until we really know people, and that can take a while, so. I totally agree. The power of groups is magical. And you also can see people's humor or their ability to have empathy in a sad story. I mean, there's so much you get out of seeing someone in a bigger environment. So we're very bullish on this. You know, Bumble for friends. Our new tagline is find your people. Because, you know, I think the last decade we've been so focused on find your person, find your person, find your person. But just what if through finding your people, you find yourself and then you find your person? And I think there's something really special about the prioritization of that. Right. I think there's been this broken narrative of a bunch of people walking around thinking they're halfs and they need to find their other half to become a whole. And I believe that you actually really do become a whole through wonderful friends in your life and the people that build you up and the people that encourage you and they help you be better. And that's usually a platonic relationship. And so I think Bumble is going to be known for love beyond romance pretty soon here. That's my hope.

Adam Grant (24:53)

Yeah. What's the term that's in vogue for this? The other significant others.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (24:57)

That's right. Yeah, I like that. I actually haven't heard that one in a while.

Adam Grant (25:01)

Well, you reheard it here first.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (25:03)

We always hear everything from you first. Adam, you are our oracle.

Adam Grant (25:08)

That's a scary thought. Please, please rethink it immediately. I wanna say one more thing about the group dynamic, which is I do wonder if it's gonna be harder for introverts than extroverts.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (25:19)

That's really interesting.

Adam Grant (25:20)

Are you concerned about that?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (25:21)

No, because we have all of it. Right. Whatever works for you. We still have the one to one friend finding mode as well. Right. So, you know, if you are introverted or you are extroverted or you're somewhere in between, like, you should be able to use these products to achieve finding your people in whatever way works for you.

Adam Grant (25:42)

Everything is always easier for the ambiverts in the middle of that scale.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (25:45)

Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Adam Grant (25:51)

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Whitney Wolfe Herd (26:58)

My dad is a business owner and.

Adam Grant (27:00)

Growing up, I'll never forget his old ringtone. He made it as loud as it could go because he could not afford.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (27:07)

To miss a single customer call. That stuck with me. When we started OpenPhone.

Adam Grant (27:11)

Our mission was to help businesses not.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (27:13)

Just stay in touch, but make every.

Adam Grant (27:15)

Customer feel valued, no matter when they might call.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (27:19)

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Adam Grant (27:21)

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Whitney Wolfe Herd (27:28)

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Adam Grant (27:30)

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Whitney Wolfe Herd (27:33)

And with our AI agent answering 24.

Adam Grant (27:35)

7, you'll really never miss a customer.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (27:39)

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Adam Grant (27:42)

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Whitney Wolfe Herd (27:44)

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Adam Grant (27:48)

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Whitney Wolfe Herd (28:04)

Oh yeah.

Adam Grant (28:05)

Who are your dream dinner party guests dead or alive?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (28:08)

Walt Disney.

Adam Grant (28:10)

What is the worst advice you see given to founders?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (28:15)

These people in suits show up and they're like, oh, we need to handle or manage the founder. And it's such a broken model because I think if people wouldn't do that, whether it's investors or people that think they're the grown up in the room, I actually think so many companies would not have crumbled. I don't think that's appropriate. I think it's disempowering and actually crumbles the energy of the company. And so I think over management, over hiring, over scaling over bloating, over maturing for no real reason. It's like it torches the magic.

Adam Grant (28:53)

That was not a lightning answer, but I'll take it.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (28:55)

Oh, sorry about that. I forgot we're in lightning mode.

Adam Grant (28:58)

What's the question you have for me?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (29:00)

Okay. What's your honest opinion on what dating apps have done to culture over the last 10 years? Oh, you can't hurt my feelings.

Adam Grant (29:07)

I'm not worried about hurting your feelings. Look, I'd like to speak with better evidence, and I haven't read the literature on the impact of dating apps on culture, so I'm a little bit out of my comfort zone, but I think it's a mixed bag. Like most technology, I think there have been upsides and downsides. I actually think it's been leveling, very much so, I think for both for women and for introverts. I think the introvert piece is pretty obvious. A lot of introverts would not go to a bar or would not go to whatever event was necessary to meet people. And the fact that you can find potential love on your phone has been liberating. I think you've played a huge role, Whitney, in empowering women to have a sense of ownership and freedom, frankly, from gross behavior by men. And I think that's been a huge step forward. I think, on the flip side, I guess my biggest beef with dating apps is they reinforce our tendency to judge people way too quickly. We already did too much thin slicing of I see somebody, and I've had 0.4 seconds of interaction with them, and I already am judging them, and now we're doing that. The one photo that you happen to post or the most trivial, Actually, here, I want to read you something hilarious that I got. I'll paraphrase it for you.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (30:45)

Okay. I love it. Let's hear it.

Adam Grant (30:47)

I got an email from a woman, I think it was last summer, saying, hey, I know this is a little weird, but I wanted to thank you. And she says, I came across a guy on a dating app and everything about him was wrong. Everything. But he listed you as the person he'd want to have dinner with.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (31:11)

Oh, wow.

Adam Grant (31:12)

And I swore that if anyone ever mentioned Adam Grant, I would give them a chance. Wow. And we're planning our wedding now. What?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (31:21)

Oh, my God.

Adam Grant (31:22)

I was like, whoa. You just put way too much stock in somebody knowing who I was and liking some of my work. But that aside, so interesting that that one little detail changed her opinion. And it shouldn't.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (31:34)

But it's not one little detail. It's A mindset, though. It's a behavior signal, Right? If you like Adam Grant, if that's who you want to have dinner with.

Adam Grant (31:44)

You'Re a huge jerk. Is the takeaway.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (31:46)

No, no, it. It tells you everything about that person. You understand quite rapidly what that person values, what they're interested in, what. What sparks their interest. So I actually, I understand that 100%. But you're right, like, overjudgment is bad.

Adam Grant (32:05)

Yeah. But that is also so broken that if he happened to give a different answer to that question or she didn't happen to get that far, she would have swiped the other way. And then they're not getting married, and then maybe their future children don't exist. And I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing. Maybe she would have found love with someone else. Maybe he would have found someone who didn't judge his taste in cars so quickly. But it just. I don't think it's great that dating apps have amplified our tendency to have those knee jerk reactions to other human beings.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (32:37)

Do you find it that different from how people actually act in the real world, though?

Adam Grant (32:42)

No, because.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (32:43)

Let me play this. Let me play this back to you. That guy was standing at the bar next to her, and she looked at him and she thought, not for me. Don't like his shorts. His shoes are weird. Whatever. He ordered a weird drink, whatever it was about him that signaled to her, not for me. But then she overheard him speak, saying that, oh, God, if only I could have dinner with one person, it'd be Adam Grant. And then she turns her head and says, wait, you love Adam Grant? Tell me more. So my question is like, are. Are. And I'm not defending us at all, but are dating apps responsible for it, or is it just maximizing how humans already behave?

Adam Grant (33:23)

I think. I think you're right. I think that the same thing could, could, and often does happen in a bar. I think what's different, though, is the number of signals you're getting and how 3D they are. And I think that dating apps have flattened people in a way that just makes it easier to swipe. And I think in a bar or wherever they were to meet in person, you're more likely to be presented with the conflicting cues. You're more likely to see the nuance and the ambiguity and the 3D version of the human. And I don't love that dating apps have. I don't want to say exploited how quick we are to judge, but maybe capitalized on it. And I think a Better app would force you to look at multiple signals before you make a determination. But of course that, that goes counter to the goal of efficiency.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (34:15)

I think you're totally right, and this is the big debate that we all have. Because what's interesting is every time we've tried to put more friction in and you know, kind of say you have to look at more photos, you have to read their bio, you actually get a lot of blowback saying, like, you're forcing me to spend time on people that I'm telling you I'm not interested in. But I think what you're saying is it's like the paradox of choice. And, and we're kind of perpetuating this, this thing that social media has maybe been responsible for, which is the over amplification of choice and the overselling of, there's always a bigger, better deal out there. The grass is always greener.

Adam Grant (34:56)

I think you're right. I think designing for more friction is not the answer. I do wonder if there's a way to get faster to. Well, I guess to complexifying cues. Right? To signals that tell you right away this person is not exactly who you think they are.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (35:12)

Right.

Adam Grant (35:12)

Like the person who's wearing the Grateful Dead shirt in their photo also, you know, reads Maya Angelou. Finding that out would be immediately intriguing.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (35:23)

Right? But see, that's the whole point of that dating coach that I was talking about. The entire purpose of my original concept of your matchmaker should talk to my matchmaker is precisely to avoid people over judging or underestimating someone's quality. Because a photo isn't gonna cut it and a random bio is not going to cut it. So imagine if it knew your favorite Maya Angelou quotes and books and knew, you know, that you studied. You have a PhD in X, Y and Z. But yeah, maybe you've got a backwards hat on and you're like, you're of kind covered up in a ski mask in your photo. And so someone would have said no. This actual digital matchmaker can intervene and say, wait a second, you've missed something great here. And so I think having someone be there to actually help people stand out beyond just some random profile was really the end state goal. Because the story you just told is exactly what would have happened to me and my husband. And we joke about it. I would not have swiped right on him. His photos were ridiculous. And so, you know, I've been trying to solve for this for 10 years. I'm like, how would I have avoided, avoided missing my husband on my own product?

Adam Grant (36:37)

Okay, so your vision for the future of dating is we're going to have AI coaches that are going to basically encourage us to give people second chances from time to time, and then they're going to get us off the apps and send us out into the world to meet a bunch of people.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (36:54)

I think my vision for the future of love is very simple. Love first starts with getting to know yourself, getting to understand yourself, starting to really understand who you are and why you do the things you do and understand what really matters to you. How do we help you really understand who you are first? So that's the first place. The second future of love for me is to really go out and help you find truly compatible people on your behalf, whether that's a human in the loop or some hybrid of human matchmaker and AI matchmaker, but to really bring people that are genuinely compatible for you, not just someone you thought was quote unquote hot. Right. This should not be hot. Or not going forward and then really getting you offline. Like, I genuinely believe we can use AI to make love more human again.

Adam Grant (37:46)

Wow, that's an exciting vision. I just want to say, for the record, I definitely want to debate you on your first point that you should know yourself as a precursor to finding love.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (37:56)

Okay, let's debate this.

Adam Grant (37:57)

Yeah, okay, good. Okay, I see the argument. I also think it's for many people in many situations, backward.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (38:04)

Okay, tell me more.

Adam Grant (38:05)

You come to know yourself by falling in love and getting your heart broken and seeing what versions of you get elicited by the people you're with and then discovering who you want to become in a relationship. And I worry that people doing the work and going to therapy and meditating and journaling until they know who they are and then looking for love will actually stunt their growth. As opposed to saying no, we discover who we want to become in relationships, not before relationships.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (38:37)

Okay, so it's an interesting debate, and I actually don't 100% disagree with what you're saying. However, I think I'm coming at it from a different lens. I'm coming at it from living through a lot of really painful relationships and realizing at the end of it, had I just had a little bit of self love, a little bit of self respect, a little bit of confidence, I could have avoided multiple years of hell and heartache and pain. So I don't disagree in the fact that you learn a lot about yourself through relationships. However, my hope and wish is that I don't meet more women in their 40s and 50s that are on the ground and have lost every ounce of who they are through abusive, toxic relationships. And so when I say if we could just help people learn to understand themselves better so that they can have that confidence and have that. That belief in themselves that when they do go out into the world and date various people, they don't come back a shell. So I think it's like a bit of a different approach.

Adam Grant (39:43)

Yeah, No, I think I agree with everything you just said. And so I guess we had different ideas in mind about what it meant to know.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (39:50)

Yeah.

Adam Grant (39:50)

And what I was thinking about is figuring out what you want through experience. And what you're saying is before you gain that experience, you should figure out how you deserve to be treated.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (40:01)

Amen. You just nailed it.

Adam Grant (40:03)

No, you nailed it. I was reflecting back to you what I heard.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (40:06)

Okay, well, we both said it. And so I think what matters most is you can't understand what works for you in a relationship without real human relationship experience. That's true, but you shouldn't get into a relationship feeling like you're not worthy and that you don't deserve to be treated with respect. So if we can help you build that muscle and that strength before you get out there to learn what does work for you and doesn't work for you, we'd leave the world off a whole lot better.

Adam Grant (40:33)

Beautifully put. I love that. Whitney, thank you. This was so much fun.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (40:39)

Thank you, Adam.

Adam Grant (40:42)

My main takeaway from Whitney is that there's a risk in defining yourself by your work. Yes, you can have too little attachment to your job and your organization, but you can also be too strongly attached to the point where you lose the ability to see it clearly and objectively. And I think a little bit of distance from the things we care about can be healthy. Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash, Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manibong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Layton Brown. Last thing, just on a purely amusing note, you were a little hard on Hot or Not. I honestly miss it, and let me tell you why.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (41:41)

Tell me, please.

Adam Grant (41:43)

I actually used to use it to convince people they're more attractive than they think they are. You just put their photos on and then show them that other people think they're hot.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (41:51)

Oh my God. I will call the product team right now. We will get Atom Mode hot or not rebuilt for you.

Adam Grant (42:01)

Only.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (42:01)

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Adam Grant (42:03)

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Adam Grant (42:06)

New 5G phone?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (42:07)

Enough.

Adam Grant (42:08)

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