Podcast Summary: ReThinking – "What motivates great Americans" with Ron Chernow

Podcast: ReThinking
Host: Adam Grant (TED)
Guest: Ron Chernow, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer
Date: July 8, 2025

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode features a deep conversation between organizational psychologist Adam Grant and renowned biographer Ron Chernow. Grant explores Chernow's unique approach to chronicling the lives of towering American figures—such as George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, Ulysses S. Grant, John D. Rockefeller, and Mark Twain—probing how Chernow selects his subjects, unearths their motivations, and interprets their contradictions. The discussion also delves into the art and science of biography and the enduring question: What motivates the people who shape American history?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Art and Science of Biography

• On Choosing a Subject:

  • Chernow compares selecting a biography subject to marriage:

    "If you pick the right person, nothing can go wrong. If you pick the wrong person, nothing can go right." (01:16)

  • He looks for figures who built the foundations of American culture and enjoys challenging historical consensus.

• Uncovering What’s Missing:

  • Chernow cites Hamilton as an example, noting he was once underappreciated and misunderstood:

    "...almost all the books up until the show portrayed Jefferson was this saintly figure and Hamilton was this, you know, villainous character...he had become the least known of the founders." (03:49)

• Research Process and Immersion:

  • Chernow is a "documents person":

    "When I sit down to write, I have approximately 25,000 cards...arrange in these index card boxes." (04:57)

  • He describes biography as developing a photograph—letting the image slowly appear from fragments.

• Embracing Contradiction:

  • Both biographer and psychologist must accept that people are inherently contradictory:

    "People are inherently contradictory...readers...find it more convincing because everyone they know is as contradictory...as the person you're writing about." (08:41)

Psychological Portraits of Historic Figures

• Father Figures:

  • All of Chernow’s subjects had problematic, distant, or domineering fathers. He sees a connection between this adversity and their later toughness or precocity.

    "[They] never talked about their fathers. The father was a figure of fear and hatred..." (09:49)
    "By having to protect yourself or push back against a dominant father, I think you become maybe more precocious, you become tougher." (11:45)

• Leadership, Vision, and Single-Mindedness:

  • Successful figures like Grant, Hamilton, and Washington are united by clarity of vision and the ability to rally others:

    "...clarity of vision, there was a single mindedness of purpose, of an ability to focus on a goal and then harness all of their energy to achieve that goal, and...to be able to communicate that to the people around them." (13:06)

  • Leadership is contagious:

    "In terms of leaders, courage is contagious and fear is no less contagious." (13:06)

Case Studies: Grant and Twain

• Ulysses S. Grant:

  • Grant’s military leadership suited his historical moment, but his presidential years were marred by naiveté:

    "...he was the most lovable great child in the world...when he got into the White House...he seemed to be completely blind." (15:11)

  • Recent scholarship has begun to re-evaluate Grant’s significance.

• Mark Twain: Contradictions and Motives:

  • Twain as American archetype: rural, vernacular, democratic spirit.
  • He spent 11 years abroad and was worldly and cosmopolitan.

    "He wrote for the masses...he infused this new democratic spirit into American letters." (19:34)

  • Hidden melancholy beneath wit:

    "Life was a tragedy with comedy distributed here and there in order to heighten the pain and magnify it." (21:48, paraphrased)

  • Manic creativity and chaotic work habits, with signs reminiscent of modern psychological diagnoses (though Chernow avoids explicit labels):

    "...an almost sort of manic creativity...his room would have papers everywhere...He always said he was very, very lazy. And yet he left behind 9,000 letters, 50 notebooks, hundreds of unpublished manuscripts..." (22:56) "I did speak to a friend who is a psychologist and I was describing Mark Twain. She said, oh, attention deficit disorder." (23:54)

Twain’s Modern Resonance

• On Patriotism and Politics:

  "Twain said he was driven up the wall by the saying...‘My country, right or wrong’...‘Our country we should always support and our government whenever it deserves it.’" (26:14)

• On Hyperpartisanship:

  "He said that the partisanship had become so extreme that if the Democrats incorporated the multiplication table into their electoral platform, the Republicans would vote it down..." (26:14)

• On the Press:

  "He said that irreverence is the champion of liberty, and it's sure's defense...the devil's aversion to holy water is light matter compared to the dread of a despot at a newspaper that laughs." (27:18)

• Courage vs. Cultural Power:

  • Twain only became outspoken late in life; switching from beloved figure to contrarian came at a cost.

Twain and Grant: An Unlikely Friendship

• Twain helped Grant finish his memoirs as Grant was dying.

  "Twain said that Julius S. Grant was the greatest person he ever knew...‘manifestly, dying is nothing to a really great and brave man.’" (30:39–32:06)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Revealing Character:

  "Even when we're trying to hide, we reveal ourselves in the methods by which we try to hide." (07:59, Chernow)

• Twain’s View of Nostalgia:

  "I would like to relive my youth and then drown myself." (20:57, Twain via Chernow)

• On Contradiction and Empathy:

  "People are inherently contradictory...readers...find it more convincing because everyone they know is as contradictory...as the person you're writing about." (08:41, Chernow)

• On Twain’s Business Misadventures:

  "He said, 'I must speculate, it is in my nature.' And he fails at one business after another. There is no learning curve." (34:51, Chernow)

• On Marital Dynamics:

  "His wife, Livy...had to teach him when he wrote an angry letter instead of sending it to put it in the desk...they had this system of cards at a dinner party...red card meant, why don't you stop monopolizing the woman who's sitting to your right? A blue card would mean, are you gonna sit back and say nothing all evening?" (36:32, Chernow)

Lightning Round (34:40–40:42)

Biggest Surprise about Twain:

• His disastrous business instincts:

  "There is no learning curve...it's just one self-inflicted wound after another. That's the tragedy." (34:51)

Worst Advice Twain Gave:

• Life as a cautionary, not inspirational tale:

  "The lesson of his life is when you're hurt. Let it go." (35:31)

Potential Female Biographical Subjects:

• Chernow would have considered Abigail Adams, Harriet Tubman, and Eleanor Roosevelt—but acknowledges strong prior biographies exist.

On Twain's Narcissism and Family Impact:

• Family felt overshadowed:

  "She said he would flood the room with his talk...a tragic blindness that he had." (38:43–40:33)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:16–02:48 – Chernow on choosing biography subjects
• 03:44–04:44 – Example: Hamilton and challenging the consensus
• 04:57–05:44 – Inside Chernow’s research process
• 07:59–09:40 – How people reveal themselves even while hiding
• 12:41–13:59 – Commonalities among great Americans: vision, resilience
• 14:43–16:19 – Ulysses S. Grant: strengths, flaws, re-evaluation
• 19:19–20:57 – Why Twain matters; his American identity
• 21:48–23:54 – Twain’s hidden melancholy and "manic creativity"
• 26:14–28:42 – Twain’s views on patriotism, politics, press
• 30:39–32:06 – Twain’s relationship with Grant
• 34:40–40:42 – Lightning round: surprises, lessons, family, and legacy

Conclusion: The Complex Humanity of History’s Giants

Chernow and Grant reflect on how, even after thorough research and psychological probing, historic figures remain layered and full of contradictions. The episode underscores the power of biography: to build empathy, embrace paradox, and see past the myths towards the rich, often messy inner lives of “great” Americans.

"Someone who's so brilliant could be so blind." (40:38, Chernow)

This summary retains the conversational intimacy and intellectual curiosity of the episode. Chernow’s anecdotes, Adam Grant’s probing questions, and both men’s willingness to ponder uncertainty provide unique insights into how and why great Americans rose—and how biography can invite us to rethink them, and ourselves.