Podcast Summary: ReThinking — "Talking People Out of Hate"

Host: Adam Grant
Guests: Daryl Davis (musician, author, activist), Jeff Schoep (former neo-Nazi leader)
Date: November 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this powerful episode of ReThinking, Adam Grant explores the pathways out of hate with two extraordinary guests: Daryl Davis, a Black jazz musician known for convincing hundreds of white supremacists to leave hate groups, and Jeff Schoep, a former leader of America’s largest neo-Nazi organization who credits Daryl with helping him leave extremism. Grant’s central inquiry: How can people's seemingly unchangeable beliefs and prejudices be reshaped, and what does it take to transform hate into reconciliation?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Hate and Curiosity as a Catalyst

• Daryl’s Childhood Experience:

  • Daryl Davis, as a diplomat's child, grew up globally, exposed to multicultural environments. When facing racism upon return to the U.S., he questioned the very roots of hate.
  • Notable story (04:43): At age 10, Daryl was attacked during a Cub Scout parade for being Black — an experience that inspired his lifelong quest to understand racism.

  “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” — Daryl Davis (09:50)

• Curiosity vs. Courage:
  Daryl clarifies that his approach wasn’t driven by bravery but by curiosity informed by a diplomatic upbringing (11:03).

2. First Encounters and Building Trust Across Divides

• Daryl Meets Jeff:

  • Daryl had known of Jeff Schoep for decades as a prominent neo-Nazi leader. Their initial meeting in a restaurant began amicably, unraveling into a tense moment when Jeff tried to assert his supremacist ideology—only for Daryl to respond with calm, unruffled curiosity (18:32).

  “I will fight to the last bullet for my people.” — Jeff Schoep (19:45)

  • Daryl’s refusal to escalate left Jeff confused but intrigued, opening the door for honest dialogue.

3. The Psychology of Change: Humanization, Cognitive Dissonance, and Motivational Interviewing

• Human Connection & Self-Reflection:

  • Rather than confronting or condemning, Daryl seeks to understand and respectfully challenge the beliefs of others, planting seeds of doubt about their ideologies (22:23).
  • Jeff describes how hearing Daryl’s story and reflection on humanity “cracked open” a long-closed door.

  “When you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process.” — Jeff Schoep (22:52)

• Motivational Interviewing in Action (26:27):

  • Adam frames Daryl’s strategy as akin to motivational interviewing: “The worst thing to do is to directly tell them to change [...] the best thing to do is to get really curious.”
  • Daryl emphasizes offering alternative perspectives, not direct attacks, to induce cognitive dissonance (28:53).

  “You cannot change anybody’s reality. [...] Offer them a better perception. If they resonate, you’ve planted the seed.” — Daryl Davis (26:40)

4. Process of Disengagement from Extremism

• Leaving and Leading Others Out:

  • Jeff recounts the painful process of leaving, the need for internal motivation, and the importance of support systems (30:27).
  • Both note the journey is gradual; real change comes from within, not forced from outside.

• Dialogues That Plant Seeds:

  • Daryl shares a story about using analogy to challenge a Klan leader’s beliefs (32:13), flipping stereotypes, and demonstrating the irrationality of hate-driven “gene” myths.

  “You are a serial killer. [...] Your gene is latent, hasn’t come out yet.” — Daryl Davis (34:17)

5. Respectful Conversation as a Vehicle for Change

• Five Core Human Values (35:40):

  • Love
  • Respect
  • Fair and truthful treatment
  • Being heard
  • The same aspirations for one’s family as others

  Daryl asserts these values, applied in adversarial situations, enable smoother, more productive interactions.

• Limits of Change (37:00):

  • Both men acknowledge that some people may never change, but persistence and openness—the “open door”—are essential. Even those who appear unreachable may reflect and change later.

  “Let’s not get furious. Let’s get curious.” — Daryl Davis (42:36)

• The Necessity of Listening (38:07):

  • Daryl distinguishes between respecting a person’s right to speak and respecting their ideas. To be heard, one must also listen.

  “Why should I expect them to hear what I have to say if I refuse to hear their premise?” — Daryl Davis (38:40)

6. Guidance for Listeners: Changing Others, Changing Ourselves

Lightning Round Highlights (41:58)

• Worst Advice When Talking Across Divides:

  • “To argue, to escalate.” — Jeff Schoep (42:13)
  • “If you don’t like something, ignore it. [...] Racism is a cancer. If you ignore it, it metastasizes.” — Daryl Davis (42:16)

• On Handling Triggers:

  • Daryl: Know what to expect before engaging; avoid if the trigger is unmanageable (43:14).
  • Jeff: Don’t give away your power by getting angry (43:15).

• Changing Family and Close Relationships:

  • Jeff: Keep the door open; warmth and support can offer an exit when someone is isolated (44:46).
  • Daryl: “Find your line”—everyone has a role, be it frontline activism or quieter support (45:27).

Final Reflections

• Adam observes that everyone can “find their question”—a disarming query that opens dialogue rather than shuts it down.

  • Adam: “What evidence would change your mind?”
  • Daryl: “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” (46:20–46:49)

• Daryl emphasizes that opposing hate should focus on the belief—not the believer:

  “Let’s not be against the person. Let’s be against the ‘ism’ that the person believes in.” (47:31)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

1. On the Nature of Hate and Humanization

   “What can be learned can be unlearned.”
   — Daryl Davis (01:19)

2. On Dialogue Over Violence

   “You cannot beat the Nazi out of a Nazi by punching him or her in the face or whatever.”
   — Daryl Davis (48:53)

   “All the years that I was involved in the movement, not one person ever left by getting punched in the face. In fact, every time there was violence that entrenched people further.”
   — Jeff Schoep (48:57)

3. On Keeping Conversations Going

   “When two adversaries are talking, they’re not fighting, they’re talking. It’s when the conversation ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence.”
   — Daryl Davis (46:49)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Daryl’s Origin Story & Curiosity: 04:43–12:47
• Meeting Jeff Schoep; De-escalation: 16:04–21:21
• Human Connection & Cognitive Dissonance: 22:23–30:27
• How to “Plant Seeds” for Change: 32:13–36:44
• Handling Limits, Setbacks, and Persistence: 37:00–38:49
• Lightning Round (Advice, Triggers, Family): 41:58–47:46
• Final Reflections on Dialogue and Change: 46:49–48:57

Takeaways and Lessons

• Curiosity, not fury, is a powerful antidote to hate.
• Change comes from listening, humanizing, and respectfully challenging with authentic questions.
• Some hearts and minds won’t shift instantly—support and keep doors open.
• Find your unique contribution: whether on the “front line” or providing quieter support, every effort matters.
• Violence rarely changes minds—dialogue, even with deep differences, is the truer path to reconciliation.

Episode in a sentence:
Through stories of improbable friendship and transformation, Daryl Davis and Jeff Schoep illuminate how even those entrenched in hate can change—and what we can all do to foster curiosity, connection, and personal growth.