Talking people out of hate with Daryl Davis and former neo-Nazi Jeff Schoep

Summary

Podcast Summary: ReThinking — "Talking People Out of Hate"

Host: Adam Grant
Guests: Daryl Davis (musician, author, activist), Jeff Schoep (former neo-Nazi leader)
Date: November 18, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this powerful episode of ReThinking, Adam Grant explores the pathways out of hate with two extraordinary guests: Daryl Davis, a Black jazz musician known for convincing hundreds of white supremacists to leave hate groups, and Jeff Schoep, a former leader of America’s largest neo-Nazi organization who credits Daryl with helping him leave extremism. Grant’s central inquiry: How can people's seemingly unchangeable beliefs and prejudices be reshaped, and what does it take to transform hate into reconciliation?

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Hate and Curiosity as a Catalyst

• Daryl’s Childhood Experience:

  • Daryl Davis, as a diplomat's child, grew up globally, exposed to multicultural environments. When facing racism upon return to the U.S., he questioned the very roots of hate.
  • Notable story (04:43): At age 10, Daryl was attacked during a Cub Scout parade for being Black — an experience that inspired his lifelong quest to understand racism.

  “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” — Daryl Davis (09:50)

• Curiosity vs. Courage:
  Daryl clarifies that his approach wasn’t driven by bravery but by curiosity informed by a diplomatic upbringing (11:03).

2. First Encounters and Building Trust Across Divides

• Daryl Meets Jeff:

  • Daryl had known of Jeff Schoep for decades as a prominent neo-Nazi leader. Their initial meeting in a restaurant began amicably, unraveling into a tense moment when Jeff tried to assert his supremacist ideology—only for Daryl to respond with calm, unruffled curiosity (18:32).

  “I will fight to the last bullet for my people.” — Jeff Schoep (19:45)

  • Daryl’s refusal to escalate left Jeff confused but intrigued, opening the door for honest dialogue.

3. The Psychology of Change: Humanization, Cognitive Dissonance, and Motivational Interviewing

• Human Connection & Self-Reflection:

  • Rather than confronting or condemning, Daryl seeks to understand and respectfully challenge the beliefs of others, planting seeds of doubt about their ideologies (22:23).
  • Jeff describes how hearing Daryl’s story and reflection on humanity “cracked open” a long-closed door.

  “When you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process.” — Jeff Schoep (22:52)

• Motivational Interviewing in Action (26:27):

  • Adam frames Daryl’s strategy as akin to motivational interviewing: “The worst thing to do is to directly tell them to change [...] the best thing to do is to get really curious.”
  • Daryl emphasizes offering alternative perspectives, not direct attacks, to induce cognitive dissonance (28:53).

  “You cannot change anybody’s reality. [...] Offer them a better perception. If they resonate, you’ve planted the seed.” — Daryl Davis (26:40)

4. Process of Disengagement from Extremism

• Leaving and Leading Others Out:

  • Jeff recounts the painful process of leaving, the need for internal motivation, and the importance of support systems (30:27).
  • Both note the journey is gradual; real change comes from within, not forced from outside.

• Dialogues That Plant Seeds:

  • Daryl shares a story about using analogy to challenge a Klan leader’s beliefs (32:13), flipping stereotypes, and demonstrating the irrationality of hate-driven “gene” myths.

  “You are a serial killer. [...] Your gene is latent, hasn’t come out yet.” — Daryl Davis (34:17)

5. Respectful Conversation as a Vehicle for Change

• Five Core Human Values (35:40):

  • Love
  • Respect
  • Fair and truthful treatment
  • Being heard
  • The same aspirations for one’s family as others

  Daryl asserts these values, applied in adversarial situations, enable smoother, more productive interactions.

• Limits of Change (37:00):

  • Both men acknowledge that some people may never change, but persistence and openness—the “open door”—are essential. Even those who appear unreachable may reflect and change later.

  “Let’s not get furious. Let’s get curious.” — Daryl Davis (42:36)

• The Necessity of Listening (38:07):

  • Daryl distinguishes between respecting a person’s right to speak and respecting their ideas. To be heard, one must also listen.

  “Why should I expect them to hear what I have to say if I refuse to hear their premise?” — Daryl Davis (38:40)

6. Guidance for Listeners: Changing Others, Changing Ourselves

Lightning Round Highlights (41:58)

• Worst Advice When Talking Across Divides:

  • “To argue, to escalate.” — Jeff Schoep (42:13)
  • “If you don’t like something, ignore it. [...] Racism is a cancer. If you ignore it, it metastasizes.” — Daryl Davis (42:16)

• On Handling Triggers:

  • Daryl: Know what to expect before engaging; avoid if the trigger is unmanageable (43:14).
  • Jeff: Don’t give away your power by getting angry (43:15).

• Changing Family and Close Relationships:

  • Jeff: Keep the door open; warmth and support can offer an exit when someone is isolated (44:46).
  • Daryl: “Find your line”—everyone has a role, be it frontline activism or quieter support (45:27).

Final Reflections

• Adam observes that everyone can “find their question”—a disarming query that opens dialogue rather than shuts it down.

  • Adam: “What evidence would change your mind?”
  • Daryl: “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” (46:20–46:49)

• Daryl emphasizes that opposing hate should focus on the belief—not the believer:

  “Let’s not be against the person. Let’s be against the ‘ism’ that the person believes in.” (47:31)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

1. On the Nature of Hate and Humanization

   “What can be learned can be unlearned.”
   — Daryl Davis (01:19)

2. On Dialogue Over Violence

   “You cannot beat the Nazi out of a Nazi by punching him or her in the face or whatever.”
   — Daryl Davis (48:53)

   “All the years that I was involved in the movement, not one person ever left by getting punched in the face. In fact, every time there was violence that entrenched people further.”
   — Jeff Schoep (48:57)

3. On Keeping Conversations Going

   “When two adversaries are talking, they’re not fighting, they’re talking. It’s when the conversation ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence.”
   — Daryl Davis (46:49)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Daryl’s Origin Story & Curiosity: 04:43–12:47
• Meeting Jeff Schoep; De-escalation: 16:04–21:21
• Human Connection & Cognitive Dissonance: 22:23–30:27
• How to “Plant Seeds” for Change: 32:13–36:44
• Handling Limits, Setbacks, and Persistence: 37:00–38:49
• Lightning Round (Advice, Triggers, Family): 41:58–47:46
• Final Reflections on Dialogue and Change: 46:49–48:57

---

Takeaways and Lessons

• Curiosity, not fury, is a powerful antidote to hate.
• Change comes from listening, humanizing, and respectfully challenging with authentic questions.
• Some hearts and minds won’t shift instantly—support and keep doors open.
• Find your unique contribution: whether on the “front line” or providing quieter support, every effort matters.
• Violence rarely changes minds—dialogue, even with deep differences, is the truer path to reconciliation.

---

Episode in a sentence:
Through stories of improbable friendship and transformation, Daryl Davis and Jeff Schoep illuminate how even those entrenched in hate can change—and what we can all do to foster curiosity, connection, and personal growth.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Dogs are more than just pets. They're arguably the most important member of your family, so of course you'd do anything to keep them happy and healthy. Ollie delivers fresh, protein packed meals made with real human grade ingredients. Choose from five recipes with personalized plans tailored to your dog's needs. Meals come in perfectly portioned mess free packaging with a scoop for easy serving and a storage container to keep food fresh. Worried about transitioning your dog's food? Ollie offers in App Health Screenings where their team of experts will guide you every step of the way so you can feel good knowing you're doing what's best for your best friend. Visit ollie.com tedtalks and use code TEDTalks for 60% off your first box.

[Adam Grant]

This episode is sponsored by Stripe. 1.3% it's a small number, but in the right context, it's a powerful one. Stripe processed just over $1.4 trillion last year. That figure works out to about 1.3% of global GDP. Empowering that figure are millions of businesses finding new ways to grow on stripe like Salesforce, OpenAI, and Pepsi. Learn how to build the next era of your [e-mail] Enterprise.

[Daryl Davis]

As kids, we all are taught a tiger does not change its stripes. A leopard does not change its spots. So why would anybody think a Nazi would change his swastika or a Klansman would change his robe and hood? Yes, a tiger and leopard cannot change their stripes and spots because they were born with those immutable characteristics. That's who they are. But the Klansman or Nazi is not born with that robe and hood or that swastika. That is acquired. That is learned behavior. And what can be learned can be unlearned.

[Adam Grant]

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the Science of what Makes Us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. The KKK is one of the tightest knit tribes in America. Once people join the white supremacist group, they're usually members for life. But in the 1980s, they began losing members. Since then, more than 200 people have renounced their affiliation, who all give credit to the same man, a black jazz musician named Daryl Davis.

[Daryl Davis]

For me, it wasn't courage as much as it was curiosity. I want to see how these people think. So rather than get furious, I got curious.

[Adam Grant]

I wrote about Darrell in my book Think Again. He's a master of talking people out of hate and he has a closet full of KKK robes and hoods from former members to prove it. Darrell's most recent book is called the Clan Whisperer, and he's also a co founder of the Pro Human Foundation. It's become his life's work to show how people can change their deeply held beliefs about others, even those they profess to hate, like Jeff Scoop. Jeff spent more than 20 years leading and growing the largest neo Nazi group in America. After he met Darrell, he started questioning his ideology. The following year, Jeff helped organize the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville and then abandoned the movement. He was adrift until he got a call from Darrell, who helped change the trajectory of his life.

[Jeff Schoep]

When Darrell called me after I had left the movement, I was at rock bottom. His phone call was so uplifting for me. Like, I was just filled with emotion at that moment because I had almost nobody that were not in the movement. So it's really important to leave that door open, be that support system, be there for those people that doesn't signify that you agree with them, but leave that door open for love, because that can change the world.

[Adam Grant]

For this conversation, I wasn't interested in rehabilitating Jeff's image or downplaying the violence and discrimination that people of color have faced in this country since its inception. To put it plainly, I wanted to explore the ways in which people's minds can change, even from the deepest depths of hate. And I wanted to find out how those same people can begin to grow and begin to make a positive impact in the world. Okay, Darrell, I think that when I first became aware of you, my understanding was that there was sort of a growing swell of former white supremacists leaving the Ku Klux Klan. One man, one musician had managed to talk several hundred people out of hate. How did you end up getting into that?

[Daryl Davis]

Okay, so I'm age 67 currently, and I grew up as a child of parents in the US Foreign Service. So I was an American Embassy kid. You get assigned to a foreign country for two years. At the end of that two year assignment, you come back home to the States, you're debriefed, and then you go back overseas again a few months later, perhaps a year later, to another foreign country for two years. So back and forth, back and forth were the formative years of my life. And my first introduction to school was abroad. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries. When I was in school abroad, all my classmates were from all over the world. Because anybody who had an embassy station where we had our American embassy, all of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this desk next to me might have been from Czechoslovakia, this kid from Japan, that kid from Italy, that kid in front of me from Nigeria. So to me, that was the norm for what school was supposed to be. But every time I'd come back home here to my own country, I would be either in all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And even though desegregation was passed four years before I was born, schools did not integrate overnight, Right? So one of those times that I came back, I was age 10, 1968. I was in fourth grade, and I was one of two black kids in the entire school. There was a girl in second grade and me in the fourth grade. So consequently, all of my friends were white. They were fourth and fifth graders. And several of my male friends were members of the Cub Scouts. And they invited me to join, which I did. I was the only black Scout anywhere in the area. This was in Massachusetts. And we had a parade along with several other organizations. The sidewalks were lined with nothing but white people waving and cheering as we're marching down the streets until we got to a certain point I began getting hit with our bottles and soda pop cans and small rocks from just a small group of spectators off to my right. I turned to look to see what was hitting me, and I saw about four or five people. I remember a couple kids who I did not know and a couple of adults who I assume were their parents, and they were throwing things. And my first thought was, oh, these people over here, they don't like the Scouts. That's how naive I was, because I had no precedent for that behavior. You know, that's all I could think of. It wasn't until my Cub Scout leaders came running, and they're all white, and they covered me with their bodies and quickly escorted me out of this danger that I realized that none of my fellow Scouts were getting this special protection. So obviously, I had done something to incur their ire, you know, And I kept saying, what did I do? I didn't do anything. Why are they doing this? And all they would do is kind of shush me and rush me along, telling me to keep moving, keep moving. Everything will be okay. I kept moving, but they never answered my question. And at the end of the march, when I returned home, my mother and father were at home. They weren't at the march, and they were cleaning Me up, putting band aids on me and asking, how did you fall down and get all scraped up? I told, I didn't fall down. I told them exactly what had happened. And for the first time in my life, at the age of 10, my mother and father sat me down and explained to me what racism was. At age 10, believe it or not, I had never even heard the word racism. I had no clue what they were talking about because that word and that behavior again, was not in my world. I was around people from all over the world. So that's why what I'm saying is that unless you have that kind of exposure and experience, you don't think about those kinds of things. And now I'm being forced to think about it because it's in my face and my parents are telling me this. And I didn't believe my parents. I didn't believe them that because my 10 year old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me, never spoken to me, knew nothing of me, would want to hurt me for no other reason than the color of my skin. That made absolutely no sense. And to prove to them that they were wrong and I was right, I pointed out the fact that my friends, my fellow scouts, my schoolmates, my friends overseas, whether they're my little Danish or Swedish or Norwegian or French friends, did not look any different than those people over there on the sidewalk. Same color. So color had nothing to do with the reason why they were targeting me. I still didn't know the reason. And you know, we went back and forth. Well, I didn't believe them. This is 1968. Martin Luther King was assassinated. I remember it very well. Every major city in this country burned with violence and destruction, all in the name of this new word I had learned called racism. So now I accepted the fact that my parents had not lied. This phenomenon does exist. But I didn't know why. And that's when I formed that question in my mind. How can you hate me? We don't even know me. And for the next 57 years, because I was 10 then, 67 now, I've been looking for the answer to that question. So when I, you know, I have a vast library, Adam, tons of books on black supremacy, white supremacy, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis, the neo Nazis, antisemitism, racism, you name it, I've read them all. They all talk about it, but they don't tell me why. And when I would ask people, they would say, oh, Darrell, you know, some people are just like that. That's just the way it is. Well, that's not an answer for me. And so who better to ask that question of than someone who would go so far as to join an organization with over 100 year history of practicing hating people who don't look like them?

[Adam Grant]

Darrell, please.

[Daryl Davis]

Yes, sir.

[Adam Grant]

I'm just mystified by one aspect of this. Who worse to ask that question of? I cannot. Who in their right mind goes up to someone who.

[Daryl Davis]

Who said I was in my right mind? Fair, fair.

[Adam Grant]

Let me ask that one differently. I mean, who has the audacity, the courage to approach someone who thinks that they don't deserve to exist and want to learn from them?

[Daryl Davis]

Excellent question. All right. It goes back to my experience. My dad's job with the US government was to go to a foreign country and improve relations between the foreign countries government and the US government. That's what a diplomat does, right? So now I wasn't a diplomat. I was a child of diplomats. I was around diplomacy all growing up. I just absorbed it. So for me, it wasn't courage as much as it was curiosity. I want to see how these people think to. If I had grown up here in my own country and not gone abroad and been exposed to those things, would I be doing this work today? Maybe not. Maybe I'd be staying as far away from those people, it'd be us versus them kind of thing as I could. You stay on your side of the tracks, I'll stay on my side of the tracks and we'll just go parallel, you know, not interact. You know, people ask me, well, how come your parents didn't warn you about this? Certainly you know they knew about racism. Yes, of course my parents knew about racism. My parents were from Roanoke in Salem, Virginia, the seat of the Confederacy. They weren't allowed to drink from certain water fountains or use certain restrooms. And they had to ride in the back of the bus. Right. So, you know, I'm glad they didn't tell me about it. And I'll tell you why. Suppose my parents had told me about racism before I had that incident with the bottle and rock throwing. Would I be wary of every white person I saw? Oh, I wonder if that's a white person that my parents were, were telling me about. If he's going to act like that, maybe I'd be a little leery. But as a result of not knowing and finding out that way, I became curious, why is that person like that, but this white person is not like that, you know, so I'm glad it worked out that way.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I am too, because otherwise we wouldn't have you setting an example that the whole world needs to learn from. This episode is brought to you by Ambetter Health Group health insurance can put businesses in a tough position. If you're a business owner, a CFO, or an HR leader, this is probably going to sound familiar. It's fall and you find out your group health insurance premium will be more expensive next year, maybe by a lot. And as usual, you have to pick one carrier and a few plans for all the employees. But they each have different medical needs, different budgets and different preferences for doctors. Plus, the carrier's network might not be strong where all employees live. Fortunately, there's a new approach. It's called an ICHRA or icra and it's a game changer. Ichras make costs predictable with stable pre tax contributions and a larger risk pool. And they make health plans personal because employees can buy any plan that fits their needs from any carrier. You choose how much to contribute. They choose what works for them. It's about time, right? For coverage you control plan on an ICHRA. Learn more at ambetterhealth.comichra. this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. If you're a small business owner, work rarely stops. When the day ends, your business is always on. And when it's time to hire, you need a partner who's just as committed. That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes hiring simple. Post your job for free and share it with your network. Their new feature even helps write job descriptions and gets your posting in front of the right candidates with deep insights. Want more reach. Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. Here's what matters. Quality. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn say it's helped them find high quality candidates. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring and find your next great hire today. Post your job for [e-mail] Adam that's LinkedIn.com Adam to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

In today's fast changing digital world, proving your company is trustworthy isn't just important for growth, it's essential. That's why Vanta is here. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading, AI, automation and continuous monitoring. So whether you're a startup tackling your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's Trust management platform makes it quicker, easier and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so you can win bigger deals sooner. The results? According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slash over $500,000 a year in costs and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic. 10,000 global companies trust V including Atlassian, Quora, Chili Piper and factory. Visit vanta.comtedaudio to sign up for a free demo today. That's V-A-N-T a.comtedaudio.

[Adam Grant]

So, Darrell, how did you get to know Jeff? You must have known who he was before, since he'd been an influential neo Nazi leader for a long time. How did you get to know him?

[Daryl Davis]

I've known Jeff personally since about 2016, but I knew of him 20 years prior. I was watching a TV talk show. I think it was Rolanda. And he was just a teenager back then, I believe. I'm like, you know, what are these guys talking about? What is wrong with these people?

[Jeff Schoep]

I want you to meet 22 year old Jeff.

[Daryl Davis]

He's a leader of a group called the National Socialist Movement. I have to admit, I look at.

[Adam Grant]

You, you're so young.

[Daryl Davis]

It breaks my heart to think that you might be filled with so much hatred. How did you get involved in a group like this?

[Jeff Schoep]

Well, let me tell you, it's not hatred. It's love for our own people, love for our own race. We need a white homeland. And no matter what happens, we're gonna have that white homeland. Any means necessary.

[Daryl Davis]

And I never dreamed that I would be meeting him, but I did. And today he is my brother. We work hand in hand all around the country, sometimes separately, sometimes together as we are right now.

[Adam Grant]

Wow, Jeff. It's just. It's hard to even imagine somebody traveling the distance that you have traveled. So I know you were involved with some pretty hateful groups. How old were you when that began?

[Jeff Schoep]

I came from a family connection. My grandfather fought in Hitler's army during the war. My great uncles fought as well. And one of my uncles was captured at Stalingrad and my grandfather was in a POW camp and my other great uncle was wounded in Ardennes. It was that historical and family connection. But I have to say that with the caveat that it wasn't my family that propagandized me or got me into this. In fact, they actively tried to discourage that. I sought out the movement on my own and joined up at about 18.

[Adam Grant]

Wow. I mean, it's just so hard for me to imagine. Didn't you grow up understanding that Nazis were evil?

[Jeff Schoep]

Well, I mean, they are. That's the truth. But you know, the thing is, is I was looking at it through a different lens. I was of the mindset that the victors wrote the history and that my people could never do something like the Holocaust or anything like. So I became a Holocaust revisionist and I didn't believe in that narrative. I didn't believe the true facts and I believed the set of so called facts that fit my narrative. So it's pretty dark.

[Adam Grant]

Take us to 2016. What were your views when you met Darrell?

[Jeff Schoep]

So in 2016 I was the head of the National Socialist movement, which was at the time was the largest Neo Nazi organization in the country. And I had gotten contacted by a filmmaker and they said, hey, would you come and participate in this film? And I would participate in all the films that I could participate in because it was a chance to spread the propaganda of the movement. You know, I didn't know that I was meeting with Daryl Davis. I knew who Daryl Davis was because he was getting people out of these movements. He's pulling people out of these groups. So we knew who he was. He's the enemy. Right? The producer didn't tell me. They didn't say Daryl Davis or if they did, I didn't. It didn't register for me. So we come into the restaurant, we sit down, we're getting along and we start talking about music. I was a singer in a long haired rock and roll band in my early. And then it clicked in my head, hey, you're the commander of the National Socialist movement and you're getting along with this guy too well. And it clicked right at that moment. I know who this guy is. He's somebody that gets people out of these groups. So I'm thinking, this isn't going to look good on film. So I pound my fist on the table and I said, you know what, Darrell? I'll fight to the last bullet for my people. And you would think in a normal scenario like that the other side, when you try to escalate, they escalate back. Darrell doesn't escalate. He just goes, hmm, and just continues the conversation. Like I didn't raise my voice, like I didn't get aggressive or anything.

[Daryl Davis]

We were getting along too well. I mean, we were laughing and joking about different things. And then all of a sudden, just like you said, out of the blue, he pounded his fists on the table and said, I will fight to the last bullet for my people. I'm like, mm, okay. So I just continued talking to him.

[Jeff Schoep]

You know, and now I'm just like, what is up with this guy? Why is he not reacting? What is going on here?

[Adam Grant]

This is.

[Jeff Schoep]

Something strange is happening here. So now I'm really tuned in. I'm trying to figure him out. And Darrell says to me, he says, can I tell you why I do the work that I do? And, of course, conversations are reciprocal, and he was respectful to me, so I'm being respectful to him, despite our ideological differences. And Darrell shared with me about how hate racism affected him growing up when he's in the Boy Scouts, and how he was targeted by white adults, and they were throwing rocks at him. And it didn't sit right for me. Like, bothered me. Like, if this ideology that I stand for is causing that kind of pain to somebody, like, how is that. How is that noble? How is this. This grand cause that I. That I think it is? How is that true? And Daryl says, you know, how could someone hate me when they don't even know me? And that hit like. Like a ton of bricks. And I'd like to say right at that moment, everything changed. My whole life changed. It did on the inside, but it took time. It took time because I'd been involved in this st for a lifetime. It was 27 years total.

[Adam Grant]

This is unbelievable.

[Daryl Davis]

And when we finished the interview, the camera people, you know, were wrapping up, and I pulled Jeff aside and just talked to him one on one, you know, man to man, and, you know, just shared a few things with him, and that was it. And then he gave me his phone number, and I gave him mine. And then the next year, Charlottesville happened with the white supremacist rally there. And Jeff had participated in the rally, and I guess a while after that, it may have been that year, he kind of went under the radar. And then a little while later, I had heard that he had left the movement. And so I reached out to him. I called him on the phone, and we talked for a good, I don't know, half an hour, 40 minutes, and said, you know, we gotta figure out, you know, what we can do together. He said, well, let me know. I'm game. You know, I really appreciate, you know, your calling me, and I really respected you back then at Chris's Hot Dog Grill, you know, you took me aside, talked to me man to man. He bonded with me on the phone.

[Adam Grant]

It's incredible. Okay, Darrell, you go into these conversations with white supremacists initially to Learn from them. Having no idea that your curiosity is going to be a catalyst for them changing their views and, you know, in, in many cases, abandoning their hate. Let's start with the question, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? Jeff, for you, it was a life changing question. Why did that question get through to you when other efforts hadn't?

[Jeff Schoep]

You know, my family and everybody had tried to read me for years and years and years, and I wasn't hearing it. When you're entrenched in it, you think you're doing this noble thing. So when someone tells you you're wrong, you're hateful, you're off, you automatically push back. It's just human nature. That's what we do. That's all of us do. Darrell didn't do that. And see, and when he shared that deeply personal story, that was a humanistic connection. He showed me his humanity at that point. And when you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process. And I had been chief dehumanizer for many, many, many years. So when Darrell showed me his humanity, it cracked open like this window or cracked open this door that hadn't been cracked open in a really, really long time. So instead of being immersed in this ideology and this thought that I'm doing thing, here, I'm sitting across from somebody that's not telling me that I'm wrong. He showed me how wrong I was. And all of a sudden this ideology starts collapsing because how can it be good and noble and honorable and just if it's doing that to a child and if it did that to Darrell, how many other people is it doing it to? And that's where I was talking about compartmentalizing it. You try to set it aside and go, okay, that was just one incident. And I would do that sort of thing psychologically. Whenever there was mass shootings, whenever there was somebody that had done a terrible crime affiliated with the ideology, you always try to say, well, that was a crazy person. Never the ideology, always the individual. You'd say, well, that person had some screws loose, there was something wrong with them. But when it happens again and again and again and again and again, you have to at some point start reevaluating and going, you know what, maybe it is the ideology. But you see Darrell's approach and why it works. And it's the same approach we use at. I run up nonprofit called Beyond Barriers. And it helps get people out of extremist groups that can be far right, far left, cults gangs, et cetera, is not tell the person they're wrong is but to show them how they're wrong. And I don't want to speak for Darrel, but I'm sure he'll probably concur on this too. Like, when people say, we're converting people, we want them to feel like they've done it themselves. They have to feel like they've done it themselves. Because if they say, well, Daryl Davis made me change, or Jeff Scoop made me change, or my wife or my husband made me change, that's not real change. That's a forced change. Real change has to come from the heart and from the mind. So the person individual has to do it themselves.

[Adam Grant]

I think you're right. I don't think that you guys are changing anybody's minds, but I think that you're planting seeds that then people go in water. And Daryl, when I think about what you do, the magic of Daryl Davis, if I had to break it down, I would say you're a master at motivational interviewing, where in psychology, we would say if somebody is defensive or resistant to change, the worst thing to do is to directly tell them to change or attack their position. The best thing to do is to get really curious and start to interview them and say, hey, I'd love to understand your attitudes a little better. And then ask them questions like, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? That bypass their defensiveness, that lead them to reflect genuinely and start to wonder, yeah, what? I don't know this man. Why do I hate him? And then realize that their attitudes are more complex than they might have thought. Realize maybe that they don't have good reasons to hold the views that they hold, and then start to find their own reasons for change. Okay, Darrel, tell me what you think about the psychology of motivational interviewing. Is that what you are?

[Daryl Davis]

Yes, that's exactly what I do. We don't convert people. You know, when you see my name in the media, it'll say, you know, Black musician converts 200 white supremacists or KKK people, whatever. No, I did not even convert one of them. Yes, I am the impetus for over 200 to convert themselves. And you've heard the expression, Adam, one's perception is one's reality, and that is so, indeed true. Whatever somebody perceives is their reality, even if it's not real, is their reality. You cannot change anybody's reality. You're going to get pushback. So if you want to affect change on somebody's reality, it's counterintuitive. But don't attack their reality. Offer them a better perception or perceptions, plural. And if they resonate with one of your perspectives or perceptions, you have planted the seed. And it ruminates in their mind. If it causes a cognitive dissonance and they try to find out why, and the next thing you know, it's the introspection that does, oh, you know what? Maybe I better change my path. And with Jeff Scoop here, it's very important to note, you know, this man was a commander of this organization for 25 years. He built it into the largest neo Nazi organization in the country. He is responsible for recruiting a large number of people. So in that position, right, people looked up to him. You know, when he got out, I had people I didn't even know, neo Nazis emailing me, asking me, is this true? Did Jeff really leave? And some of them, you know, they want to leave, too, but they came through me, and I sent them to Jeff, right? Now, Jeff, as a commander, he brought a lot of people in. He has to sit around and debate because people looked up to this guy. You know, this was their commander. They joined this organization to serve him, right? And now he's coming and saying, hey, folks, you know, I was wrong. Does he want to go and admit this? How is he going to look in their eyes now? Does he want to lose that throne of power, that seat of power that took a lot of. Now, that is the definition of courage, not curiosity. That's courage to come out and say, hey, I was wrong. This is not right.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I'm gonna just disagree with your premise there. I'm gonna say, I think you're both courageous. I think that Jeff, in your case, you had something to gain and something to lose by leaving the movement. As far as I can tell, Darrell, you have nothing to gain through the work that you do other than making the world a better place.

[Daryl Davis]

Well, I gained a lot of friends, man. Jeff is my brother. I'm an only child. Now I got a brother.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, he wouldn't have even made my top thousand list of people I want as a possible brother. But you're.

[Daryl Davis]

But he does now.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so you used a keyword, cognitive dissonance. I'm so glad you brought this up, because it struck me that now, with both of you planting seeds to try to help people find reasons to change the way that you do, it is very different. And it seems to me that your identities have something to do with that. Darryl, the fact that you approach a white supremacist as a black man, and they have a pleasant, respectful conversation with you. They discover that you're kind, you're intelligent, you're immediately shattering some of their stereotypes. And so the dissonance is almost inherent to the interaction. Jeff, in your case, it seems to me that the cognitive dissonance is more around saying, I used to share your beliefs. I used to think I was in the right, but actually I was wrong and I've seen the light. And now they have to confront the question of is it possible that the current version of Jeff is right and the old version was wrong. I'd love to hear the two of you riff on that a little bit and how you each think about using dissonance.

[Jeff Schoep]

I think, you know, we don't tell people that they're wrong. We really try to show them how that is. You know, as Veral said, you know, this is about seed planting. If you go into these situations and expect somebody to do a full 360 degree turn and a snap of a fingers, that is almost unheard of. I mean, I have a couple of scenarios that I can think of throughout my whole lifetime where things have happened that quick, but the vast majority, like the hundreds of people that we know that have left, it's a process, it takes time. Curiosity is a big part of it. I know when I first got out, they automatically think you flip to the other extreme. So I'm getting all these emails going, what's the deal? Did you really leave the movement? Are you antifa now? Are you a communist now? And I'm stressing out at this point. I'm going, why are everybody think I'm antifa? Why do they think I'm a communist? What am I saying that's making them think that, you know, and I'm getting really stressed about it and I start thinking, you know, no, don't get angry, answer them, say, no, I'm not antifa, I'm not a communist. Why do you think that? You know, and just start the conversation. And this is exactly what Darrell does, is not get angry, but try to understand them. So a lot of times what I found in those conversations with people that originally came at me kind of hard is w so I could leave the movement and still be conservative or still be somewhere over here on the right, just not be a racist. And you're like, yes, that would be great. Or you can be on the left, just don't go way out to the extreme. It doesn't matter where you land, just don't be on those extremes. Don't Hate people. And they're just like, wow, that's pretty cool. So when they have those questions, if they're reaching out in the first place, there's probably some little voice in the back of their head going, maybe this isn't the right path that I'm on. And they're starting to kind of guess those things.

[Adam Grant]

Yep.

[Daryl Davis]

Let me give you an example of exactly what Jeff's talking about. So one time I had this Klan leader in my car, he was a district leader and he's in the passenger seat, I'm driving. And somehow we got on the topic of crime and he used that figure of authority called they. You know, they say we never know who they is. You know, they say all black people are born with a gene that makes them violent. That's what he's telling me. And I said, well, what do you mean? He said, well, who's doing all the drive bys and carjackings in southeast. He was referring to Southeast Washington D.C. which is predominantly black and high crime ridden. I said, okay. I said, it's black people. I said, but that's what lives there. You're not considering the demographics. Who's doing all the crime up in Bangor, Maine? White people, because that's what lives there. He goes, no, no, no, that has nothing to do with it. You know, you all have this gene of say black people are born. So, you know, my gene almost came out. But I, but I maintain my calm and I realized, you know, that that was his reality. So how can I tell him something that's going to make him think. I can't give him any thesis from some psychologist or psychiatrist or some other person who studies this. He's not going to know the person, he's not going to read the book or whatever. So I had to go to where he was. And so I said, look, man, I'm as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a carjacking or a drive by. How do you explain that? And he didn't even think about it. He answered me like that. He said, your gene is latent hasn't come out yet. Right. How do you even bite into that? So I was speechless just driving along. He's over here all smug like, Mm, you got nothing to say? I had to think about it. So I used his figure of authority. They, I said, well, you know, they say all white people have a gene that makes them a serial killer. He says, what are you talking about? I said, name me three black serial killers. He couldn't do it. I said, just name me one. He couldn't do it. I said, charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler. On and on and on. I said, son, they're all white. You are a serial killer. He said, darryl, I've never killed anybody. I said, your genus Leighton hasn't come out yet. He goes, well, that's stupid. I said, well, duh. I said, you're right, it is stupid. But it's no more stupid for me to say that about you than what you said about me. And he got very quiet, but I could almost hear the wheels in his brain spinning.

[Adam Grant]

Bzz.

[Daryl Davis]

And then he changed the subject. But within four to five months, he quit the Ku Klux Klan based on that conversation. And his robe and hood was the first robe and hood I ever got.

[Adam Grant]

I love that story.

[Daryl Davis]

So, I mean, it was a stupid analogy, but that's where I had to go, okay? So I didn't attack his reality. I gave him another perception. So that caused a cognitive dissonance, especially when the shoe was on the other foot.

[Adam Grant]

Yes, it did. It did. I mean, that. That is a brilliant and beautiful example of analogical reasoning where instead of just attacking his reasoning head on, you give him an adjacent case and say, well, you know, if that logic holds, what happens when we put the shoe on the other foot and all of a sudden he doesn't like the logic anymore?

[Daryl Davis]

One thing I've learned, Adam, in my travels is this. Every human being wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved. Everyone wants to be respected. We all want to be treated fairly and truthfully. We all want to be heard. We want the same things for our family as anybody else wants for their family. And if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those five values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation, it doesn't even have to be about race. It could be about anything. Abortion, nuclear weapons, Gaza and Israel, Russia and Ukraine, you name it. There are a lot of hot topics out there. You're on one side, somebody else is on the other side. If we can learn to apply those five core values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we are uncomfortable or unfamiliar, our guarantee that your navigation of that situation, that culture, that society, will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive.

[Adam Grant]

It almost sounds too easy. And I know this is often Months or years of conversation, but I'd love to push the limits of it a little bit. Are there times when you haven't been able to get through to people? Are there kinds of people that you cannot reach?

[Daryl Davis]

Yes. There are gonna be people on all sides, regardless of the color of their skin, who will go to their grave being hateful, violent and racist or anti Semitic, what have you. I don't give up on those people because I've seen some of them, some of them come back to me and apologize. I have put some of them in the hospital when they put their hands on me. I've had to fight. Violence is not my thing that I go to first. But if I feel under physical attack, I'm not going to sit there and take it. I've put people in the hospital, I've put people in jail. And some of those people have come back to me and apologize and have later changed. Not all of them. Some of them have died and gone to their grave feeling that way. And that's fine. I don't give up on them. I move them down my list of priorities.

[Adam Grant]

I love the idea of moving them down your priority list. And it's remarkable to me that you don't give up on them. I cannot imagine being as forgiving as you are. And yet that's part of what I think opens the door for some people to change, is the fact that you're not hitting them back and you're not judging them as harshly as they judge you.

[Daryl Davis]

Okay, so let's understand respect. I will sit there and listen to somebody spew all their white supremacist stuff. I don't respect what they are saying, but I respect their right to say it. It. It's my choice whether I want to believe it or not or whether I want to comply with it or not. And I expect them to respect my right to give my rebuttal if I have a rebuttal which may not agree with them. But I want them to hear what I have to say. So why should I expect them to hear what I have to say if I refuse to hear their premise?

[Adam Grant]

I mean, that makes so much sense. If you want people to listen to you, you have to be willing to listen to them. If they don't feel understood, they're not going to want to understand you.

[Daryl Davis]

Precisely. We will answer your call as soon as we can.

[Jeff Schoep]

Are you still running your business? With one creaky old phone system, missing calls, losing track of messages, and scrambling to keep up with your team, it's time to Break up with the past and say hello to Kuo. Kuo is the number one business phone system with 4.7 stars across 3,000 reviews on G2. Quo brings all your business phone calls and texts into one app for your team. No more juggling devices or being tied to a landline. Quo's built in AI logs, calls, creates summaries, automates follow ups, and can even answer and route calls so you never miss an opportunity. Whether you're a solo operator or leading a growing team, Quo keeps you connected and helps you deliver standout customer experiences. Join over 90,000 businesses using Quo and see why it's the one business phone system for customer satisfaction. Level up your workflow with quo. Get started free plus get 20% off your first six months at quo.comtech that's quo spelled q u o.com tech and if you have existing numbers with another service, Quo will port them over for free. Quo no missed calls, no missed customers.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Dogs are more than just pets. They're arguably the most important member of your family, so of course you'd do anything to keep them happy and healthy. Ollie delivers fresh, protein packed meals made with real human grade ingredients. Choose from five recipes with personalized plans tailored to your dog's needs. Meals come in perfectly portioned mess free packaging with a scoop for easy serving and a storage container to keep food fresh. Worried about transitioning your dog's food? Ollie offers in App Health Screenings where their team of experts will guide you every step of the way so you can feel good knowing you're doing what's best for your best friend. Visit ollie.com TED talks and use code TEDTalks for 60% off your first box in today's fast changing digital world, proving your company is trustworthy isn't just important for growth, it's essential. That's why Vanta is here. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading, AI, automation and continuous monitoring. So whether you're a startup tackling your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so you can win bigger deals sooner. The results According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slash over $500,000 a year in costs and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic. 10,000 global companies trust Vanta, including Atlassian, Quora, Chili Piper and factory visit vanta.com tedaudio to sign for a free demo today. That's V A N T A dot com TEDAUDIO.

[Adam Grant]

All right, I want to go to a lightning round. Goal of this round is to get each of you to answer in one sentence. Jeff, you can start with question one, which is, what is the worst advice that people give for talking to people who disagree with you?

[Jeff Schoep]

To argue, to escalate.

[Adam Grant]

Boom.

[Daryl Davis]

Darrell, the worst advice is if you don't like something, ignore it. There are things that we can ignore, like a headache or a bellyache, because they will go away. But no. Anti Semitism, racism, discrimination is a cancer. If you ignore it, it metastasizes and spreads, and then you go away. So let's not ignore it. Let's address it. Let's not get furious. Let's get curious.

[Adam Grant]

Darrell, when you were talking about how your latent gene almost came out.

[Daryl Davis]

We.

[Adam Grant]

All have those moments where we're trying to be curious and somebody just pushes our buttons or trips one of our triggers and we lose our cool. How do you avoid that?

[Daryl Davis]

Well, in my case, I realized I got myself into this. I cannot go to a Klan rally and not expect to hear the N word. Okay? It's all over the damn place. So I know that going in. So if I'm gonna be triggered by it, then don't go.

[Adam Grant]

Jeff, what about you?

[Jeff Schoep]

My take on that would be basically, if you're letting someone else get under your skin and you're getting angry, you're giving away your power to them. You're empowering them by doing that. If I'm letting this person get me angry, that costs energy. That's giving them my energy. And if you can look at it like that or put it in that perspective, it's very helpful, I think.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. Okay. One more lightning round question. You get to organize a dinner party, and the people you invite are the people whose minds you would most love to change. Who are you inviting to dinner, Jeff?

[Jeff Schoep]

Oh, boy. I think the heads of the major political parties in the United States. Because there's so much divisiveness and division right now there, I think I would try to invite them to help the country together and not be quite so partisan or hateful to one another.

[Daryl Davis]

I concur with Jeff.

[Adam Grant]

Last question for the two of you. One of the things that's striking to me as I reflect on this conversation is in psychology, we know that change requires two basic ingredients. One is ability. The other is motivation. And I think the skill part is much easier than the Will part. And you two have given many people the will to change or at least help them find their own will to change. We have a lot of listeners who are struggling with that, and I'd love to just ask each of you for your closing advice. For anybody who's listening, who may want to start changing, where should they begin and. Or if they've got somebody in their life that they want to help change, what else would you advise that we haven't already covered for, like a family.

[Jeff Schoep]

Member or someone else that's concerned about somebody? Don't slam the door on that person 100%. You know, you can say, hey, I disagree with you, but I still love you, or I don't agree with what you're doing, and I can't. I can't hand you over. But know that I still love you. I'm still here for you. Doing that gives them an opportunity to know that there's a door or a window open for them. Because I tell you what, when you get involved in these groups or gangs, cults, far right, far left, religious extremism, whatever type of group that is, it is so isolating. It is very isolating. And either you cut off everybody that's outside of your circle or bubble, or they cut you off. So a lot of times you don't have that support system, and that's a really difficult thing.

[Daryl Davis]

Darrell, find your line. And what do I mean by find your line? Jeff and I are on the front lines, okay? We're out there with these people, so to speak. Some people, they can't do that. They cannot bring themselves to sit down with a KKK member or a neo Nazi. I can't sit with those people. I'm afraid of them, or I'm afraid I might punch them out. They just irritate me or whatever. Got it? You don't belong on the front line, all right? Maybe you can be on the back line, maybe you can be on the sideline, Maybe you can be online. Find the line where you most feel comfortable, all right? And participate. And because we all have to work together, there's no line that you can be on that is any more important than any other line. We all have to work together, put all these lines together, and that's how we create a great society. Just find your line.

[Adam Grant]

Darryl, you said find your line. And I think a great lesson from the impact you've had is also find your question. The one thing you can ask people your go to question that opens them up. So mine is, what evidence would change your mind? Darrell, yours is, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? And I think that everybody is in a position to find a question they can ask that opens people up instead of shutting them down.

[Daryl Davis]

We're coming up on Thanksgiving, and for years, you know, I've been hearing people say, I'm not going to Thanksgiving with my family because my sister voted for so and so and I voted for this one. Families are being torn apart over politics. When two adversaries are talking, they're not fighting, they're talking. They may be disagreeing. They may even be getting a little loud, but at least they're talking. It's when the conversation ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So you want to keep the conversation going and remember that a missed opportunity for conversation is a missed opportunity for reconciliation. You know, let's not be against the person. Let's be against the ism that the person believes in. Okay? Let's be anti racism. The message. Let's not be against the person because that person learned that. Let's help that person, but let's be against the ideology behind it.

[Adam Grant]

Darrell, you are a national treasure. Jeff, you are a former terrible person working to become a better one. No, I really appreciate the work that you're both doing to help people become more decent.

[Daryl Davis]

Well, see, you are one of the people who are online. That's your line. Because, you know, you're helping to promote our message of reconciliation and peace. And we really appreciate that, Adam, very, very much.

[Jeff Schoep]

We do. Thank you.

[Adam Grant]

It's an honor to have a chance to help share your message.

[Daryl Davis]

Thank you.

[Adam Grant]

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne hi, Lash Bambam Cheng, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Layton Brown. Do you believe that some people just need to be punched in the face?

[Daryl Davis]

You cannot beat the Nazi out of a Nazi by punching him or her in the face or whatever.

[Jeff Schoep]

No, I want to amplify that. All the years that I was involved in the movement, not one person ever left by getting punched in the face. And in fact, every time there was violence that entrenched people further.

[Adam Grant]

Why give someone more reasons to be enraged? Hey, it's Adam Grant from ted's podcast Work Life and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 companies use the ServiceNow AI platform, while other platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for [e-mail] we live in a culture.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Obsessed with dieting, weight loss and exercise, and that can make eating disorder behaviors easy to miss. But the reality is, eating disorders are serious mental illnesses that take a major toll on your health and your life. But recovery is possible. Eating disorders are more common than you might think. Chances are you know someone who is struggling with one, or maybe you're struggling yourself. If you're concerned about an eating disorder in yourself or a loved one, I want to introduce you to eqip. EQIP is a fully virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home. Every EQIP patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietitian, medical provider and mentors. And you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health to learn more. That's Equip Health. Want a calmer Thanksgiving this year? Ruby's Thanksgiving Guide can help. Inside you'll find chef tested recipes, clear step by step technique, techniques, and short video lessons that make the meal easier to manage and more delicious. It's perfect for hosts, helpers, and anyone who wants to cook with confidence instead of stress. All for just $25. Make this your easiest Thanksgiving yet. Get your [e-mail] that's R O U X B E.com hey guys, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. And if you're anything like me, holiday shopping has officially started and you know where I'm going. Ulta Beauty they have the cutest gift sets right now like the Sol de Janeiro, Shea Rosa and Cheer Perfume Mist Trio. It smells so good I've been misting it everywhere on me on the street on my pillow. It's a whole vibe I'm obsessed with the Tarte Kindness Cafe Collector set. It's packed with everyday makeup must haves and it's honestly too cute to wrap. And if you need a cozy little self care moment, the Moroccan Oil Hand Care Essentials Kit and is luxe, hydrating and smells delicious. Don't worry if you can't decide right now. An Ulta Beauty Gift card is the perfect gift for everyone. So whether you're gifting your bestie or yourself, make the season yours and head to Ulta Beauty. Today. Ulta Beauty Gifting happens here.