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- [00:00]
A
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking. With Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.
- [00:33]
B
This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They they actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com so, Eliza, it seems to me that you are not a fan of the gentle parenting movement.
- [01:15]
C
I am not. I'm not a big fan of any parenting movement. Like, I think it's not a religion, so we don't need to be religious about it. There is not a scientist in the world that's like, we are totally certain about anything in this particular, very vulnerable area of raising kids. Humans are too complex.
- [01:37]
B
Hey, everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. Elisa Pressman is a developmental psychologist and the author of the book the Five Principles of Parenting. She co founded the Mount Sinai Parenting center and also hosts the popular podcast Raising Good Humans. Turns out there's a lot we know about raising good humans and a lot we don't. I invited Eliza to talk about what the research does and doesn't say about effective parenting. Over the past few years, we've become friends since she's met my family, which means she's seen me parents a bit. So before digging into the literature, I wanted to start with a more personal question. So, Eliza, I want to start in an unusual place here, which is, oh, you've seen me parent a little bit. What am I doing wrong?
- [02:39]
C
Unfortunately, you're doing so much. Right. That it's going to be a short start to this conversation.
- [02:47]
B
Not the answer I am looking for. What is something I can do better as a parent from what you've observed?
- [02:53]
C
I love that you like feedback. There is absolutely no way that I have observed something that you have done in your parenting that's gonna get you what you're looking for. My only feedback might be that you have to stop thinking you can optimize here because you've done it. Let's talk about what you do. Right? Cause maybe you'll see that you're faking it in front of me and then you'll real how much more to do of that. Because I would say that I know how to be a phenomenal parent. I am only a phenomenal parent every once in a while.
- [03:31]
B
Let's actually start there. Why is there such a gap for you given that you're a parenting expert?
- [03:37]
C
Because ultimately I'm still a human being and I'm still susceptible to my mood, my inner engine, like taking personally something, my self regulation skills. And those are all the things that you need to be in top form to be an amazing parent. On the flip side, I feel I'm not berating myself for it because I also know how critical it is for our kids to see mistakes and bouncing back from mistakes and repair. So I'm like, probably easier. If you asked my kids, they would say you could be a little less with the grace that you give yourself.
- [04:18]
B
Oh, wow. Okay, that's interesting. So I always think about these kinds of disconnects as knowing doing gaps. And I'm curious about what your biggest one is.
- [04:31]
C
My biggest one, and actually my younger daughter called me out on this. This was such a silly small thing. But it really does capture my parenting where I feel pretty good about how autonomy supportive I am. And we can talk about what that means, but it's pretty good parenting. And she was having a bat mitzvah. This was many years ago. And she was wearing a dress and I was getting shoes with her and I said, get whatever shoes you want. Doesn't matter. And then I basically encouraged her to get silver instead of gold shoes. Okay. And every shoe that she wanted, I was steering her away back to the silver shoes. And then I ordered a pair of silver shoes just in case for her to try on both. And she said to me, why don't you just tell me that I don't have a choice and that I can't wear whatever shoes I want? You know, like, why are you pretending that you're so open with this particular thing, why don't you just say, hey, there are certain things that I am not giving you a choice on. And don't make it out to be like, oh, I made this decision and basically she was calling me out on something I do at a much bigger scale that is a flaw, which is I want to do the thing that I should be doing of autonomy support. But sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm just, I know so much better. And so I'm going to intervene when I shouldn't. Even though if I were talking to someone else I would say they have to make these mistakes. And obviously silver and gold shoes is a pretty low stakes mistake. But the idea is just I am so good at knowing when I don't need to intervene, but I intervene anyway
- [06:14]
B
many times when I think about these kinds of challenges. I think one of the mistakes is that we treat every parenting interaction as if it's a unique event as opposed to looking at them more systemically. So part of what I find myself wanting to do here is to say, okay, you know that you want to respect your kids autonomy. You also know occasionally you're going to have knowledge and preferences and want to guide them toward what's best. So why don't you just give yourself a quota? Like what if, what if you had, if you were allowed to intervene once a month and then in that moment you would say, are shoes the hill that I want to die on?
- [06:50]
C
Right, exactly.
- [06:51]
B
Is this the battle worth fighting? Is there any research on this or have you ever thought about like creating some kind of limit to keep yourself in check?
- [07:00]
C
Well, there's no, there's no like study where somebody figured out like how much support or like stepping in, intervening just so. But we do have lots of research on the sort of extreme ends of it. If you were intrusive, like if you're intervening so much, like in those three bag studies that they do a lot of times with younger kids, they offer basically bags of toys, let's say a puzzle over different time periods. And they're looking at the interaction between the parent and the child, the parent is being watched and the way they're guiding or scaffolding or intrusively in a well meaninged way, helping gives a lot of insight into the kind of support that becomes problematic. So it's still support, but it just goes into this category of too much. And I think that would be kind of analogous to what you're talking about of just kind of trying to figure out like, okay, I'M gonna help out a little bit. I'm gonna intervene a little bit, but I'm not gonna intervene so much that they don't think they're capable of making decisions and mistakes without being afraid of both the outcome of that and also my reaction to it.
- [08:16]
B
Yep, that makes sense. It reminded me of one of my all time favorite quotes. All time. It's from you. Oh, you said, you said all feelings are welcome, but all behaviors are not.
- [08:32]
C
Yeah, that's it.
- [08:34]
B
I think. I cannot think of a more important bit of wisdom for parenting, but also for leadership for all kinds of relationships. And I want to spend some time on this. So how did you come to this? Is this a research. Informed.
- [08:49]
C
Yes.
- [08:50]
B
Observation. Give me the backstory.
- [08:52]
C
Basically my whole job is to translate all this research to parents so that it can be applicable or to healthcare providers so it can be applicable. And I was thinking about how ultimately any parenting book you read or any study, it ends up coming down to warmth, sensitivity on one end, and, you know, high demands. You can call it control, you can call it whatever you want, but it comes down to balancing those two things of support and demands. And how do you explain that in every context, except that whatever question you ask about your kids, pretty much with some variation, comes down to all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. So you're giving both the warmth and sensitivity about acknowledging that child's feelings, allowing them to have them. You're not in charge of somebody's feelings. And this would be true. You're right. In any relationship, any healthy relationship. And then that doesn't mean that you don't curb behavior and contain things, because it's our job to set those limits and have appropriate boundaries. And without that, kids aren't safe, people aren't safe, relationships aren't safe, workplaces not safe.
- [10:06]
B
Yeah. So I'm just thinking about the just extraordinary range of situations in which this idea applies.
- [10:14]
C
Yeah, let's do it.
- [10:15]
B
Okay, so on a small scale, like you're allowed to be mad, you're not allowed to slam your door.
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C
Right.
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B
Is a simple example of this.
- [10:22]
C
Exactly.
- [10:23]
B
I guess on a higher stakes level, you know, you're allowed to feel disappointed and discouraged. You're not allowed to call your teacher names.
- [10:33]
C
Yeah.
- [10:34]
B
You're allowed to be bored, you're not allowed to skip school.
- [10:37]
C
I mean, literally every single thing you're saying, down to when people are trying to figure out the rules for their household, I mean, it has to align with your values, of course, and that's where the personal decision comes in. What can you tolerate as a parent? Like, some people don't care about certain behaviors that other families care about, but it applies to everything. And think about your relationships in general. It's sort of a good check with yourself. Did I honor the feelings? Did I maintain and contain the behaviors? And, like, are we still working on those things?
- [11:15]
B
Okay, so honoring the feelings, I think, is relatively straightforward. It's not always easy to do. Right. But the practice itself is pretty simple to acknowledge, to validate feelings as opposed to judging them or shaming them. How do we do that in practice?
- [11:33]
C
I mean, the thing that helps me is I think about the friends of mine who I will go to about any of my shameful feelings and how they respond, and what is it about them that makes me keep coming to them when I'm going through something. And there is something in the way that people who are easy to talk to communicate. They don't even have to say anything. Like, the. All feelings are welcome can happen by just, like, making sure that your particular nervous system is so regulated that it's giving a clue and a cue to the other person that you're not thrown by their feelings. Because that also welcomes feelings without saying. Because, you know, if you said to a teenager, all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. I don't know any teenager that's not gonna be like, get out of my face. That's so annoying. But you're still telling them, by being able to handle what they're going through, that that feeling is welcome. So it doesn't always need to be with words.
- [12:40]
B
I like that. Okay, so then what are examples to get really concrete of things that parents ought to say to make all feelings
- [12:48]
C
welcome so concretely, I would avoid saying things like, if it were me, I would have felt grateful, you know, because you're just continuing to give messages of your belief that, like, how a person feels should be dictated by your belief system. Nobody wants to talk to that person about their deep stuff, and we want our kids to come to us. I would also say something like, I feel that way, too. I get it. Especially with older kids as they start to have kind of really hard stuff where you want to say, this is a nothing burger in your grand scheme of life, but it feels better that you're not diminishing how big it feels for them in that moment. And on the flip side, the first time I had a bad breakup, like my first boyfriend breakup, I. I was so sad, and I told my mom, and she cried, and I was like, well, this is not all feelings are welcome because clearly my feelings are too hard for her to experience. She welled up with tears and it was in the sweetest, most sensitive way. So it can come across in different ways. I would have preferred had she said, this is so hard. I'm here. Let's watch a bunch of sad movies. I'll make you a snack.
- [14:07]
B
First of all, very powerful. Right. Because when you started describing it, my first reaction was, oh, wow, she's empathizing with you. She's crying for you.
- [14:15]
C
Right.
- [14:15]
B
But you're right. It signals that she was overwhelmed by your emotion as opposed to kind of sharing it and helping to support you through it.
- [14:24]
C
Yeah.
- [14:25]
B
And this will not surprise you. This is something I really struggle with as a parent because I want to heal it. Right. What I want to say is, you know what? I remember going through a hard breakup and I wasted days feeling like crap, and I just like, it's just not worth it. And obviously that is not an empathetic response either.
- [14:48]
C
Right.
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B
So can you help me not do that?
- [14:51]
C
I love that you said a few days of a bad breakup, because I'm like, a few days. That feels very adaptive. But I can understand that impulse. But I would probably say you'd be better if you want her to keep coming to you, you would be better off just putting your arm and giving her tissues and going for a walk. I mean, then you don't wanna go so far that you're like, stretching this out and weeks have gone by and she's sobbing and you're co ruminating and then you're like bonding over the pain. But I think there's a space between where you just kind of give her the tissues, let her get through her stuff. Later you might, a few days or a few weeks later say, you know, I've been thinking about it. I just wanted to see what's happening for you, how's it going? And then if she's still sad or if you're getting some hints at feeling better, then you might offer that you do have some wisdom, if she's up for it.
- [15:47]
B
Sage advice on this subject. I'm thinking about another challenge that really speaks to the core of making all feelings welcome and all behaviors not. Which is, I remember once one of our kids said to me, don't be mad. And of course, like, what's the response? I am not mad. But what I got back was like, you're yelling at me. And I was shocked because one of my first unacceptable behaviors as a parent, but also as a person is I Don't yell ever, Ever. And I said, I might be a little animated, but the tone you're hearing is not anger. I'm frustrated. You know, it was something silly like, you know, the ninth time I had said, okay, go upstairs and brush your teeth, please.
- [16:40]
C
Right, right.
- [16:41]
B
And just like no change in behavior whatsoever. And at that point, you know, I, I tried to explain my frustration and is that where I should have started? Like, how do you recommend handling a situation like that?
- [16:54]
C
First, I want to know why anger is not an okay thing for you to feel toward your kids. When anger is a feeling that almost all parents have felt at some point toward their kids, even if it's not expressed with the screaming that you're talking about.
- [17:16]
B
I'm not an anger person, Elisa.
- [17:17]
C
You're just not an anger person.
- [17:19]
B
Mostly I would feel disappointed. I think what bothers me about anger is it's a self centered emotion. It's about me. And rarely is your behavior about me. And I know that. And so what I wanna feel and what I think I feel most of the time is I had an expectation of you and you didn't meet that.
- [17:39]
C
Yeah.
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B
That may or may not have any bearing on me. And so I'm not gonna be mad at you like you screwed me. I'm just gonna be like, yeah, you didn't do what I wanted you to do. And I'm kind of bummed about that.
- [17:50]
C
That is so regulated. It is. No, it is. So that's the first thing. Cause that models for your kids the nuance of all the different unpleasant and challenging feelings you can have that aren't at the level of anger. So I think that's great. And there's research on this. But like, you're not more likely to get the response you're looking for behaviorally asking more than two times. Right. Than you would at nine times. So after two times I feel like, stop asking and just set the limit. Like if they're not doing it, what happens next that you're not gonna be able to do? I mean, when they're younger. And then you also don't get as frustrated cause you're like, I didn't ask nine times. I didn't set myself up to lose it because I said it once. I gave them a reminder, they know what's expected of them. I will await their, you know, good decision making. And if they don't do it, the night goes on and the consequences will be whatever the sort of natural consequences are.
- [18:54]
B
This is so helpful. Sometimes I hesitate to do that because it feels like there's a fine line between a consequence and a threat for sure.
- [19:02]
C
And I think that the consequences just if it's natural or logical, it's not a threat. It's just like the that you wanted to do. We are no longer gonna have time to do. We don't get more time than that. And so it's just a bummer. And also we're on the same team. Like I want you to get this done so we get to do all the things that we set out to do for the end of the night. But I don't think that's a threat. I think a threat is done with our lack of control. When we don't feel in control, we threaten because we just need to grab onto something.
- [19:36]
B
That's a really good point.
- [19:37]
C
The more important thing isn't to defend that you're not mad in that moment or you're not sad in that moment, but rather to say, I'm not in a great place right now, but you're safe. I'm safe. I just am not pleased with what's happening. And that's okay, I don't have to be. And it goes back to all feelings are welcome, but they need to learn the same thing, which is that they are welcome to us as well.
- [19:59]
B
Yeah, I think that's so important to model and easy to forget. This episode is powered by AT&T Business there's something we often don't question until it the invisible systems that support our work. When you're building something, whether it's a business, a team, or an idea, you're constantly making trade offs about where to invest your time and energy. Imagine being hunched over a laptop in a quiet corner of the office, finally hitting your stride, only to have a spinning loading icon bring everything to a halt. It's that split second where the momentum just breaks and you're forced to stop what you're doing to troubleshoot a connection that should have just worked when you're already navigating uncertainty, complexity and competing priorities. Reliability isn't a luxury, it's a foundation. That's what makes AT&T business a reliable provider for small business owners. For Small Business Month, we celebrate small businesses by helping them run better. This means reliable uptime, easy switching, smart Communications powered by AT&T Business built to work get today@business.att.com
- [21:06]
A
with no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC
- [21:37]
B
support comes from WISE. The smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank. Choose the smart way Wise. You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. Can you talk to me a little bit about how to enforce a boundary and maybe how that evolves by age?
- [22:16]
C
So I think when kids are younger it's much more straightforward. It's like how to keep them physically safe. Those are the boundaries that you set and make sure that other people are physically safe. You let them know what's okay and what's not okay. And ultimately we know that kids feel more safe in a structured environment like where the boundaries are super clear. And then as they get older, they want to know why. All of us want to know why. There's a rule that it's not arbitrary. So I check myself with this and this is what I recommend is, is the rule aligned with your values or are you wasting a rule? Like who cares if you don't care? That means they're gonna be able to convince you out of it. I'd rather you just not have it in the first place. So your kids know, like if you have a limit that you're not bending, I mean of course you can have conversations about it. But I know that phones in the bedroom after 9pm Aren't on the table. Like that's just not happening in my house. It's gonna be annoying. It's gonna be cause problems. It's going to be like a source of tension. Except that I'm never changing that rule. So it's going to be easier to set that have a boundary that you aren't letting anybody cross. I think what gets hard is if you're not really sure of yourself, you're like, I think this is what I'm feeling about this. I don't know. And so your kids both can tell and also their right to question you So I try to make sure I really care if I set a limit. And the other thing about boundaries is we are in charge of them. Our kids can do whatever they want. They can cross them or not. It's our decision whether or not we stay true to what we had said. And I think that's also hard for people.
- [24:05]
B
Okay. There's a gray area here which I think a lot of parents find tricky, and that is setting boundaries on expressions of emotion. Mm. Let's say, for example, you've got a teenager who's complaining all the time or who's acting out, and you say, okay, we're gonna set a boundary on how often you do that or, you know, how intensely you do that. And they're like, but I'm just expressing my feelings. Where do you draw the line between feelings and behavior there?
- [24:37]
C
Once it starts impacting other people, it's no longer just feelings. I think that's where you draw the line. And I know that there are certain things that kids can say that can make us panic, and one of them is, I'm expressing my feelings. If you want me to tell you things, then you have to accept this. But I do think that we have to kind of reflect on what are the things that get to me? Like, what is the sentence that my daughter could say that makes me think, wait, am I going too far? Or am I not far enough? Or, can I do something about this? And the answer is, if it's in any way compromising your values or it's impacting you, you have a right to say, I don't like how this is going.
- [25:20]
B
Yes. Yeah. I think that's such a clear differentiation. You can express whatever emotions you want until they're dragging other people down. So, Eliza, from this conversation so far, it seems to me that you are not a fan of the gentle parenting movement.
- [25:39]
C
I am not a big fan, but I am. I think it's wonderful for the pendulum to get wild so that it can find a place in the middle. And I think that's what the gentle parenting movement has accomplished. I think it's just done a disservice because it can be very permissive. Like, do you really wanna hang out with those kids when they grow up? I don't know that you do. And so I think it's something to just be mindful of. But if it works for you and your family, go for it. I just. My issue with the sort of indulgence about feelings and intensity is that the very children that you are more likely to engage in this kind of parenting with. Have a differential susceptibility to permissiveness. And I know that some gentle parenting does have limits, some doesn't. Either way, it's not as good for those particular type of kids who are already going to have higher rates of anxiety and other internalizing tendencies from permissive parenting. And those are the kids that are getting it most. I do think that there are some kids for whom it's irrelevant whether they have gentle parents or not. And there are some kids who are gonna. They're gonna do worse because of it.
- [26:56]
B
Yeah. A couple of reactions. First one is, I love your point that we shouldn't have parenting movements, or at least we shouldn't belong to them and subscribe to them. Like, their ideologies.
- [27:05]
C
Right.
- [27:06]
B
Like, I. I don't want to overdo this, but I think a good. A huge part of parenting is. Is being like a mini scientist, and you're running little experiments to find out what works for you.
- [27:16]
C
Yeah.
- [27:16]
B
What works for each of your kids. And you're like, you find something that works for one, and then it doesn't work for the next one.
- [27:22]
C
Exactly.
- [27:23]
B
Or it works on one issue and not for the next issue or at one life stage and not at a different phase. And if you're not consistently engaging in trial and error, you are not learning and improving as a parent.
- [27:35]
C
Hallelujah to all of that. It's totally true. And also, it's more interesting. Like, it's so much more authentic and fun to develop relationships that way.
- [27:46]
B
Yeah. Although I don't know a lot of parents who are aiming for interesting as part of their relationship. I think a lot of parents would settle for calm and voring.
- [27:55]
C
I just spent the weekend with my older daughter and a bunch of her friends from college, and I was so delighted. Like, I was just like, I love sitting back and just feeling delighted by young people. And if we're present and able to be in real, authentic conversations with them, it's because we're not subscribing to something that we're convinced is one right way, again with, like, the broader guardrails of warmth and sensitive with appropriate limits and boundaries.
- [28:28]
B
Okay. So that also makes me think about something else that I was struck by. My casual read of parenting research is we can be more confident about what behaviors are problematic than what behaviors are beneficial. And I wonder if that's. If that's true or not.
- [28:42]
C
You're. You're absolutely right. We know much more about what is probably not great than we do about the exact details about what is going to be the best for our kids. With the caveat, again, that there are broad concepts that are pretty universally true, but it's just that social science is tricky. And this is social science meets biology meets neuroscience meets psychology. So I think nuance is important. And getting to know your kids is the nuance that we can't provide, you know, in a conversation like this.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah, no, I think that's right. And so just to gut check this, don't be abusive. We can be confident that the following behaviors are abusive.
- [29:28]
C
100% confident. Abuse, neglect, witnessing violence, untreated mental illness. There are certain things that we know are not good for kids and very much in the category of toxic stressors.
- [29:39]
B
Be caring. We have lower confidence about the exact behaviors that are gonna most effectively communicate care.
- [29:46]
C
Caring, loving, sensitive. How we define that is gonna look different in different families, different cultures, different ways of being, different temperaments. And we know that having guardrails of some kind is really important. But what those are need to align with your family and your values and what works for you and your kids. So overall limits are great. Caring, sensitive, warm is great. But how you express it is going to be so personalized.
- [30:20]
B
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- [30:50]
A
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na Member, FDIC
- [31:20]
B
support comes from wise the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank, choose the smart way Wise. You can Count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the wise app today. T's and C's apply. Okay, so I want to go to a lightning round now. You ready?
- [31:56]
C
Mm.
- [31:57]
B
All right. Actually, I'm gonna ask this in the context where it probably bothers you most.
- [32:01]
C
Great.
- [32:03]
B
What is the worst parenting advice that you consistently see on the Internet today?
- [32:07]
C
God, that's so mean. One of them is like, love your kids. That's all that matters. It's not that it's not true. It's just that for some kids, a little bit more than that matters. And sometimes because we love them. If that love translates to wanting to fix all their feelings and make sure that they're always happy, that it can actually be harmful.
- [32:32]
B
Got it. Okay, best parenting advice that we haven't covered in one sentence.
- [32:37]
C
Stop optimizing for the future, and the future will be better for your kids.
- [32:45]
B
Ooh. Love it. Okay, I want to imagine a dinner party, but it's a really unusual one. You get to invite parents and children together, and the question is, what are the parent child relationships that you would most want to witness at that dinner party throughout human history?
- [33:02]
C
Well, I just started watching the JFK junior Carolyn Bissette Love Story series, so Jackie o. And John Jr. And I really want to understand the dynamic between Donald and Fred Trump, and then of course, Anna and Sigmund Freud and Hamlet and his mother Gertrude, or really just Shakespeare and any of his kids. And then, weirdly, is a very specific one. Artemisia and Orazio Gentileschi. They were both beautiful Southern baroque artists, but that story is absolutely fascinating.
- [33:45]
B
Okay, next lightning question. What is something you've rethought or changed your mind about with respect to parenting lately?
- [33:52]
C
Oh, there is a piece of research that has completely changed my thinking, which is Thomas Boyce and Ellis and their orchid and dandelion research. This is the idea that some people have more reactive nervous systems and therefore are going to either flourish in a positive environment or wither in a negative environment. We call them orchids because orchids are so hard to take care of, but when you do it right, they bloom beautifully. And on the flip side, dandelions are incredibly robust and can grow through the cracks of the sidewalk. They are not particularly plastic. They are incredibly resilient, which is awesome if things are great for them. If they came out of the Womb great. They're probably gonna stay great. It could be problematic in that they're not getting the full benefit of all the positive, amazing stuff that you might be doing, because they're kind of gonna be who they're gonna be, whereas other people, they're more plastic. And my sense is that we focus a lot on resilience as a concept that's so important. But I've started to how beautiful plasticity is.
- [35:13]
B
It's so interesting to reflect on this because I'm thinking about a conversation I had recently with Esther Perel about why I'm a bad manager. And part of the problem is I just don't like holding people accountable because as somebody who probably fits more in the dandelion category, I don't get orchids at all. I wonder, do you see similar dynamics, parent, child. Do dandelion parents really struggle with orchid kids?
- [35:39]
C
Yes. I think they either put them in a greenhouse and they're like, I'm going to be so careful because they're so fragile. I don't want to get it wrong. They might bend super permissive, which, of course, ironically, is not good for them. Or they're just like, what are you? This tag is not itchy. This sound is not annoying. Like, just get your act together. And I think both of those are just sort of extreme reactions when you just don't know what to do with someone. But it is interesting because you are raising them, presumably to go into the workforce. So you don't want them to not be capable. You want them to work for Adam Grant and say, I can handle this. It's not on Adam Grant to make it so that I am okay here. I have to figure out if this is a job that I want really badly. How do I adapt when it's hard for me? I think that's the real challenge.
- [36:29]
B
So that actually is a good segue to our mini office hours segment. I'm gonna give you the mic. Do you have a puzzle or a question for me?
- [36:38]
C
I do. And I didn't even know that this would segue so well, but it is. In fact, my curiosity in the workplace is how much is a manager meant to take into account different ways of being in designing how things work to get the best out of everyone? And how much is the onus on the employee?
- [37:02]
B
I mean, there's almost nothing more fundamental to a manager's job than understanding the personality, values, traits of your people and then tailoring to them accordingly. When Satya Nadella was on this show, and I asked him, what is Management about. He said, a manager's job is to care. And I don't need to tell you, you know better than I do. At least said that the table stakes of caring is knowing the individual as opposed to treating them like they're interchangeable. I think that. I think so many leaders get this wrong. I cannot tell you how many leaders I've advised who start to describe their leadership style to me and I have to bite my tongue so hard to let them finish before I say, you should not have one leadership style. Your style should be adapting to the needs of your followers to your point, to bring out the best in them. And there's a whole body of research on this, on what's called situational leadership theory, which basically documents what you're describing and shows that effective leaders are the people who figure out what the challenges and opportunities are in the situation and then adjust their own behavior to meet it, as opposed to expecting their followers to always cater to them. Also, in the transformational leadership literature, this is kind of the charismatic, inspiring style of leadership that we love to put on a pedestal. One of the four key behaviors that has lots of support as effective in that literature is individualized consideration, which is essentially, I treat everybody as a different human. And just like parents are supposed to know, like, you find a style that works with one kid and you don't immediately then rinse and repeat with your next children. I think teams and employees are supposed to work the same way, but a lot of leaders don't realize that.
- [38:53]
C
So good parenting.
- [38:55]
B
Yeah, in a nutshell. I mean, one of the classic leadership models was structure and consideration are the two major factors. That sounds so similar to what you were describing earlier when. When you were talking about the consideration part being sensitivity and the structure part being some element of high standards. It's so author. What is that? That's called authoritative parenting.
- [39:18]
C
It's authoritative parenting. Yeah. And it's been around for decades as sort of best practices. But it sounds so aligned with what you're talking about. It makes so much sense. So given that, what do you think young people going into the workforce, even though your ideal leader is what you're saying, fine, but let's say that's not what you're getting. At what point do you know, like, okay, I need to set myself up for success and I don't do well in this environment. And also, it's not all about you, and you have to sometimes just suck it up. And like, what is the balance as you're kind of launching people into the world Yeah.
- [39:57]
B
I think my. My best advice on this, if you're a young person who has a boss who does not do individualized consider consideration well, is you go to your boss and say, hey, I realize there are a couple things about me that I probably should have shared that would help you get the best out of me, and that's on me. And I'm a little late coming to this party, but here's what I wanted to put on the table. Just so you know, that can't be a brain dump, right? It has to be a nugget or two. You know, it should be a little clue, a hint that makes them curious about.
- [40:30]
C
Huh.
- [40:31]
B
I didn't know that. I wonder if that's why you reacted so poorly when I gave you feedback in this situation, but so well when I gave in in this situation. And I can use that to actually get the results I want. Like, that's. That's a win for me as a leader. And you want to make this a win.
- [40:49]
C
I love that.
- [40:50]
B
So, Elisa, as we wrap up, I have to ask you this. We've. I mean, we're talking about jobs. Parenting is a job. You don't usually get paid for it, and you were never given a job description or really hired for it most of the time. But what do you think the job of a parent is?
- [41:07]
C
To raise human beings that feel worthy for who they are, not the splendor of their accomplishments, and who figure out a way to be in the world and contribute in the world in some way and also to have a good relationship with them.
- [41:23]
B
Beautifully put, Elisa. Thank you.
- [41:25]
C
Thank you.
- [41:28]
B
Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash, Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale sue and Alison Layton Brown.
- [41:59]
C
Was that a chicken? Did I chicken out?
- [42:02]
B
No, no, no. Stop self evaluating your lightning answers. I'm not grading you. Elisa.
- [42:06]
C
I need a grade.
- [42:08]
B
I'm not giving you an A plus. I'm sorry. I'm just not grading it.
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A
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A
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