Loading summary
Transcript139 lines
- [00:00]
Capital One Bank Announcer
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.
- [00:33]
Nature Raised Farms Sponsor
This episode is sponsored by Nature Raised Farms. Think about your last trip to the grocery store. For many of us, the freezer aisle has become a maze of choices, ingredients and trade offs. After a day spent making decisions, it's a relief when one can just feel easy. That's what I appreciate about Nature Raised Farm farms. It's built on a simple belief. Food shouldn't be complicated. Their chicken is made with simple ingredients offering poultry and great taste in one chicken. That's really just chicken, free from gluten, dairy and soy, made with no seed oils or artificial ingredients. When food is made simple, there's more room in your day for everything else. Look for Nature Raised Farms chicken next time you're shopping and make your choice a little easier.
- [01:23]
Chris Ballard
This was in February in Vermont and they had taken the frozen surface of Lake Memphag, this giant glacial lake up there, and every winter they carve out a swimming pool with chainsaws out of this lake and they hold a swimming race. And that experience was so cold, you can't necessarily discern between heat and cold. It could feel like fire.
- [01:51]
Adam Grant
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the Science of what Makes Us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people who explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. Chris Ballard is a journalist and the author of the Plunge, a fascinating book about cold water immersion. As part of his reporting on the subject, Chris got into ice swimming himself. That Vermont swim in the glacial lake he described, the water was 33 degrees Fahrenheit that day.
- [02:24]
Chris Ballard
You're literally reacting minute to minute, like the first minute for your body in the water is different than the second minute, which is different than the fifth, which is different than the tenth. And it had a far more impactful effect on me than I expected.
- [02:36]
Adam Grant
In this conversation, Chris does some myth busting about the health benefits of cold water. We also talk about the broader lessons he's learned about the psychology of discomfort and endurance and the art of taking risks and embracing challenges. Okay, so the place I want to begin is I am no stranger to uncomfortable experiences. I seek them out for a living. It's almost a personal hobby. It's how I grow. But I hate the cold. I don't know if there's a sensation that bothers me more than cold. To me, cold is pain. Can you change my mind?
- [03:13]
Chris Ballard
In your case? I probably wouldn't try to, really. This was one of the things I. Yeah. One of the things I found interesting about reporting and writing this book was there's people who find this, like, trying a jalapeno pepper or whatever it might be, Right. They find it something they might want to try, and afterwards, like, I'm sort of glad they did that. And there's people where the dread and apprehension of the experience itself overwhelms and any positive reaction you get on the back end. And so just for recovery, which is one of the things people use it for. NBA trainers told me, look, there's a lot of players, Steph Curry on the Warriors, Draymond Green on the warriors, who find this helpful, and they will look forward to it. And that's the eustress, obviously. And then there are players in this case like Andrew Wiggins and Kavan Looney, who just fear it so much that any positive benefit they get on the back end is outweighed by the negative emotional stress on the front end. So maybe this just isn't a thing for you.
- [04:09]
Adam Grant
Well, I don't know if I'm quite ready to land there yet, because you make a persuasive case that we should all be embracing the cold a little bit more than we might instinctively be inclined to. But at minimum, I actually don't struggle with the fear part. It's just the sensation of it that I can't stand. So I think about in my springboard diving days, the early morning practices where the pool wasn't heated or we were training outdoors and we'd have to just do a first dive cold, literally, and hit the water and it's 55 or 60 degrees, and I would rather touch a hot stove. I would rather be punched in the face. Can you help me understand why that is and what is different about people who seem to like the cold?
- [04:52]
Chris Ballard
So one of the thermal physiologists I spoke to, he said essentially, we're divided into what he called warmies and coldies. And if you, like, physically shake someone's hand, you often feel the difference. Someone might have a cold Hand usually versus someone who's got a very warm handsh. This is a genetic component, and this also affects how we deal with cold. You know, some people like to have the heat on. They like to keep it quite warm in their house, and other people are fine going outside and winter wearing shorts. Right. So there's definitely a genetic component to it. There's also a learned element, and this is, for me, I came into this from the outside. I was not a cold person. I literally own a hot tub. Right. This was not something that would have naturally been drawn to. And so there was a lot of this is terrible. This is terrible. And your body acclimates so quickly, usually within about a week of cold exposure, you get through the part of it that is unpleasant, and you get to the rewards a lot quicker. So there is a learned element to it.
- [05:50]
Adam Grant
Okay, so if that's true, why is it the case that after being married for more than 20 years to my wife Allison, when she turns the thermostat down to 60 degrees at bedtime, I still freeze, I still shiver every night. Isn't that two decades of cold exposure? Shouldn't I be acclimated by now?
- [06:08]
Chris Ballard
Theoretically, yes. But also, looking at it, you may have pretty low body fat, Right. So there's a lot of reasons why you're gonna react to the cold differently. Your circulation system might be different than some people's. So there are physiological reasons, and then there's mental reasons. Sounds like yours are probably physiological, so.
- [06:25]
Adam Grant
Interesting. Okay, so the next time somebody calls me a wimp for not liking the cold, I going to say, actually, I'm just in better shape than you are.
- [06:32]
Chris Ballard
There you go.
- [06:33]
Adam Grant
All right, so no pun intended. Let's dive into your experience. I would love to hear about how you got into the plunge and about the coldest place you have gone swimming.
- [06:48]
Chris Ballard
So professionally, as a writer, I've always been interested in these little subcultures, and especially people who are really passionate about things that maybe to the rest of the world, don't seem like natural things to be doing. So I was drawn to this world. It's a subculture. There's fascinating characters. And if you're going to expose yourself to the temperatures that these people are doing for the duration that they're doing, there's nothing performative about it. It's an authentic experience. And so I was also curious what they found on the other side of that, like why and how they did it. Right. And then what they learned from it. So as a writer, I was drawn to it, and then Personally, it happened to align with a point in my life where I had hit the end of the road as an athlete myself. I'd been a college athlete, low level college athlete, and I had a hip replacement at 40. And I had this long period of recovery and I recognized that I had tied so much of myself to sports, in particular basketball. For me, so is my identity, you know, my stress release, my camaraderie, my community was tied to this. And he stole away and I realized I need to get back on the court, but also longer term, finding a pivot. So this appealed to me originally as a way to recover and get back on the court faster. That was that NBA connection of an NBA trainer telling me, you know, this is what the guys in the league are doing. So I was like, sure, I'm game if they're game. So that would be, that would be the impetus. And then as far as the coldest, that would be in Vermont. And this was in Lake Memphir Magog. And this was a thing that talk about my apprehension and my dread that I had worried about the most because the temperature some years gets down to about 32 degrees. The year I was there was around 33 degrees.
- [08:30]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
And.
- [08:30]
Chris Ballard
And you are stepping in a wooden ladder and you're swimming some cases down and back, sometimes just down. And that experience was so cold, it could feel like fire. I found that to be a fascinating experience in the moment, but prior to it there was just so much apprehension.
- [08:50]
Adam Grant
Yeah, no, I can relate to the feeling of cold fire from skiing in Switzerland when it was like below zero Fahrenheit and it feels like your fingers and toes are burning even though they're actually freezing.
- [09:05]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Yes.
- [09:06]
Chris Ballard
Yeah. And that experience is part of what some of these people chase is getting to that point where you've almost scrambled all your body's signals. And so there's a, there's certainly a sense of you are fully in the moment, you are fully present because your body has no idea what's going on.
- [09:23]
Adam Grant
Okay. The inevitable question, why? Why would anyone subject themselves to that?
- [09:31]
Chris Ballard
Various reasons. I think of the ice swimmers, which is swimming in 41 degree water or lower. And this is. These are people who are really serious about it, who commit to it, who will do it through the winter wherever they are with them. There was a sort of a Venn diagram of people who really liked extreme challenges. These are the same people who might be drawn to an ultra marathon, to a triathlon. And here is something wherein if you to them, you know, only, only, you know, 500 people in the world have done this thing and they're like, yeah, I want, I want to do that thing. So the ice mile is the very tip top of this, where you swim, you know, a mile and 41 degree lower water. Very challenging. The, the founder of it says sort of it's something that exists between impossible and possible. Right. More people fail than succeed. So that is a huge lure to some of these people. So there was some of that. Then there was somewhere, this was a community element. And that was the strongest thing I saw where it was a group of people and you went and did this hard thing together on a Sunday morning, whatever it might be. And there was this they call pure positive pressure. Right. So they're all going to be there at 9. I'm in my bed at 7am I don't really want to get up, but I'm going to go down there and we're going to do this relatively efficient hard thing. I'm not going to go run a marathon. I'm going to go in for five minutes and then I'm going to feel this immediate bond with people afterwards. And part of that is the neurochemicals shooting into you. Right. And part of it is what some of the people in the book referred to as essentially like a shared crisis. You both survived this five minutes in the cold water together and you are now bonded immediately. And often it can be strangers. So you'll see that element of it. And the third would be for mental health. And these are people who are looking for a way to create a moment of stillness and a moment of silence in their life and that will last. And maybe it's only a short period, but there is a value to that that people are finding. It's a feeling of here's something I can do that reliably makes me feel good about myself and reliably makes me feel good about the people I'm doing it with. That seemed to be a very strong theme.
- [11:34]
Adam Grant
Yeah. Okay. When I think about these people who seek out challenges, they actually do come in three flavors. There are people who are pursuing achievement. It's a performance challenge for them. There are people who are trying to prove something to others. It's image related and they really want to post about it afterward. And then there are people who are just seeking intrinsic mastery. They want to excel at something and they want to get as good as they can. They want to become experts, which is less about the outcome and more about the process. They like the experience of getting better every day. What is that about what is the draw of the cold?
- [12:08]
Chris Ballard
So I think it's because of the immediate physiological effect that occurs. So the external environment immediately starts changing your body. And I've seen this with people who have gone from pool swimming to open water swimming to ice swimming. It's this whole new set of challenges. So immediately the blood is going away from your extremities and so it's going to become harder. At a certain point, ice swimmers get like a claw hand where they can't really feel the water anymore, and then your back end is going to start sinking. And so there's all these physiological elements that you are fighting at the same time that you're dealing with. Oh, my swim stroke. Am I siting well in the water? How is my engine, my VO2 Max? Are the normal endurance things? I think that's what draws some people to this, is that it's a totally different challenge than you can find, I suppose, like if you're climbing Everest. Right. If you're going to find another environmental aspect like that. I found that to be personally one of the most interesting elements of doing it myself.
- [13:06]
Adam Grant
I know that at least a subset of people are kind of drawn to the idea that they're re engineering their bodies. And this is a bit of the acclamation that you were speaking to earlier, but I'm thinking of the extreme examples. I remember about a decade ago, first meeting Louis Pugh. He swam the highest lake on Everest and also the North Pole. And yeah, I remember asking Lewis, how do you do this? And he explained to me that he had this anticipatory thermogenesis where he'd classically conditioned himself to the point where right before a race his body would just naturally start to heat up 2 or 3 degrees. And that that gave him the capacity to sustain a level of cold that most people couldn't. And I looked at that and I thought, okay, I can see the appeal of basically becoming a frog. That's what Lewis is doing. How many other people can do this? Can you actually train yourself to do it? Is he a genetic or physiological freak or is it actually learnable?
- [14:00]
Chris Ballard
Well, the people that have been studied for it are the people that are essentially already doing it, if that makes sense. So Lynn Cox, who's generally considered one of the greatest open water and cold water swimmers ever, you know, at 15, she said the English chann, male or female, she swam from Alaska to Russia. So remarkable. She was studied by scientists. She could do it as well. But it's one of those things where they haven't studied the rest of us whether we could actually gain this. Ram Barkay, who is the founder of the International Ice Women association, also been studied in this realm. So you got to. It's sort of like, you know, the cart and the horse situation. I would be curious. I don't know. I certainly have not, through three years of doing this, created the ability to warm myself up ahead of time. That would be a fun little superpower to gain, though.
- [14:44]
Adam Grant
It would be, yeah. So what has it done for you? Talk to me about the effects that you've experienced, how they square up with the science and where you've landed on. Should I learn to cold plunge at least? Even if I'm not going to be an ice swimmer, which I don't plan on, is there a case that this is going to enrich my health or my life or my performance in some way?
- [15:06]
Chris Ballard
I came in skeptical. I should start with that as an outside journalist who'd never really even been a swimmer. But it's also worth me noting to people that I started the way most people do, which is like, cold showers, right? And then I moved on to cold plunges, and I moved on to swimming in the bay here in San Francisco, which might be like 55 degrees. So it's sort of a gradual process to the point where I was doing lower temperatures and then competing in some of these ice swimming competitions. So this is definitely not the arc that someone who just, you know, occasionally cold plunges is going to follow. So that, with that said doing it for a couple years, I found these physiological changes for me, one of which was that my resting heart rate got really low to the point where right before the going to the world championships, when I competed there, they measured it at 39. And that triggered a visit to cardiology. Except that I told them, a, I've been doing a lot of endurance sports, and B, I've been doing all this cold exposure. And then so they like, okay, that makes sense. So on the resting heart rate, which makes sense if you're doing a fair amount of cold exposure, elite athletes often get down low. 2 Heart Rate Variability went up, which is generally a good thing. But more, you know, I think more personally what I found was I had hit a point in my life. Midlife, I think, like a lot of us maybe do, you know, you have kids and you get set in your ways. And I think I had essentially underestimated myself. And so I went into this being like, there's no way I could do this. And it turned out to be not as Hard as I expected, or as I'd feared, I suppose. So that led me to bleed over into the areas of my life where my emotional regulation is better. If I'm on like an eight hour flight now and there's a. There's a kid screaming in the row behind, I feel better suited for that. I feel better suited. You know, the peaks and valleys have leveled out a bit. And is that the cold or is that the process of continually having to manage it? Which could. Maybe you could get that through meditation. Right. That's what I found to be most interesting was the. It was the. All these little tests that I took. Like every day I was taking a test and I was passing every day because that test was two minutes of my cold plunge. I never looked forward to the test, but just the process of continuing to take them, I think, is what has been most impactful.
- [17:18]
Adam Grant
This is the point where I need to call you out on a contradiction between what you just said and what you were commenting on earlier, which is you said, I became a competitive ice swimmer and I didn't do it very well. And now you're telling me you were at the World Championships. Those two things do not compute. So can you please own up to how good you got?
- [17:38]
Chris Ballard
Well, one of the great things about a sport like ice swimming is that the pool of ice swimmers is relatively small, Adam. So if I were to be going against my age group swimmers in the United States, I would be far the bottom end of, like, recreational swimmer. I mean, not. Maybe I'm overstating a bit, but if you go in the pool of ice swimmers, so all these, all these elite swimmers, do you want to get in that cold water? The answer is usually no. What's the payoff? For me? Right? And there's a handful that have done it. So there were current Olympian and past Olympians at these World Championships. But as far as the US National Team, like, if you're a decent swimmer and you would show up at the National Championship and you were willing to be part of this, they're like, come on in. And there's age groups, which is great if you're a little older in life. So you could get a medal in the 50 to 55 and the 40 to 45, whatever it is. And that counts just as much at these World Championships as an overall medal. So I was able to end up qualifying for the U.S. national team, which was amazing. That's the only national team I'm ever qualifying for, and go over there and be part of this experience and more so as a fly on the wal. But I got to race and that was fantastic.
- [18:52]
Adam Grant
It's amazing. Congratulations. Can we make a case for ice swimming as a Winter Olympic sport?
- [18:58]
Chris Ballard
Yeah. So a case can be made. And the case is this. Number one, it would be great on tv. So if you think about what does great ratings at the Summer Olympics, it's swimming. Now you add swimming, but it's outdoors. There is snow all around. Maybe you've dropped the pool into an actual alpine lake. You got mountains. You can see the wrath of the competitors. Right. And then you've got this sideline correspondent who is forced to go down to the pool and report back about the temperature, what it feels like. And then maybe.
- [19:31]
Adam Grant
And is wearing a giant parka.
- [19:33]
Chris Ballard
Yes, exactly right.
- [19:35]
Adam Grant
And gloves and a face mask.
- [19:37]
Chris Ballard
Yes. And hurries to and fro. And then you have elite competitors. And then finally got to make sure it's safe. And this is something that the ice swimming crew has spent a lot of time on. And they got to the point where at the World Championships there were no injuries. And that's largely because no one's in the water long enough to actually get hypothermic in these events. And so how long is that? So for most people, that's going to be a, you know, mild hypothermia might kick in by 30 minutes an hours when you're really worried about. And the cutoff at most of these events is 20 minutes. And these are also elite swimmers, so there's no one who's swimming it super slow.
- [20:14]
Adam Grant
Yeah. This is a little reassuring because I was starting to think, you know, what's not good tv? When you see an athlete turn blue and then start to turn into an icicle. No, I don't want to watch that.
- [20:26]
Chris Ballard
No, no, I think it's the. It's sort of like a big wave surfing where the threat of danger is part of the appeal for people. From a viewing standpoint, I would say,
- [20:36]
Adam Grant
you know, Chris, I want to come back to what you were alluding to with, you know, just feeling like you were more capable of just confronting challenges in your day. I think this is obviously bigger than cold. I remember years ago when I was doing work on productivity and procrastination, I got a lot of questions about how is it not hard for you to sit down and tackle writing a book? And I had a hard time following the question because I'm thinking there is nothing, there's nothing that I've ever done in my job that compares in degree of difficulty to even jumping off a 10 meter platform. For me, I was afraid of heights. I'm still afraid of heights, actually. And I forced myself to learn to flip and twist and to go day in and day out and force myself, you know, two hours every day to do things that I was terrified of. I would write a book every year before I even have to do one back takeoff on a 10 meter platform. Not even close. And it sounds like you're describing having experienced a version of that.
- [21:40]
Chris Ballard
Yeah, I'm addiction. You basically put yourself through exposure therapy, Right?
- [21:44]
Adam Grant
Exactly.
- [21:45]
Chris Ballard
Which is wonderful. And most of us don't opt into that. And so in my case, I'll be honest, I would not have opted into this if I weren't going to write a whole book about it. I might have been interested in it, but part of it was like, I know I have to do this today to bring it back to you for a second, Adam, there was a great point you made about your diving career, which I heard you on, actually on Oprah's podcast. And you talked about that moment when you were afraid of heights and you're on the board and you're there for 45 minutes and you're shaking and you're up there and finally your coach is like, you know, are you going to go in? And you mentioned that that was the trigger for you to realize that it is not the confidence that leads to action, it is the action that leads to confidence. And I think that's exactly what you find in this world is that you just got to do it. And then the more you do it, the more, the more strongly you feel you could do it again.
- [22:36]
Adam Grant
Well, I can't disagree with you using my own experience to make your point. Well played, Chris. Well played. This episode is powered by AT&T Business. There's something we often don't question until it the invisible systems that support our work. When you're building something, whether it's a business, a team, or an idea, you're constantly making trade offs about where to invest your time and energy. Imagine being hunched over a laptop in a quiet corner of the office, finally hitting your stride, only to have a spinning loading icon bring everything to a halt. It's that split second where the momentum just breaks and you're forced to stop what you're doing to troubleshoot a connection that should have just worked and you're already navigating uncertainty, complexity, and competing priorities. Reliability isn't a luxury, it's a foundation. That's what makes AT&T business a strong provider for small business owners. It's built to work so you can spend less time troubleshooting and more time focusing on the work that actually matters. Powered by AT&T Business Built to Work get today at business.att.com hey Yetis, this
- [23:43]
Chris Ballard
is Nick and Jack from the Best One yet podcast. Now, the last company we worked at,
- [23:47]
Nature Raised Farms Sponsor
they used Paylocity and everything just worked. It wasn't until launching our own media business this show that we realized how rare that is. Because Paylocity is one delicious burrito of operational needs.
- [23:58]
Adam Grant
They roll up h finance and it seamlessly into one delicious bite.
- [24:03]
Chris Ballard
When everything wraps together like that all at once, your workforce, your tech stack,
- [24:06]
Nature Raised Farms Sponsor
your business, you don't need more tools.
- [24:07]
Chris Ballard
You don't even need cilantro.
- [24:08]
Adam Grant
You need one solution.
- [24:10]
Chris Ballard
And that is why Paylocity built a
- [24:12]
Nature Raised Farms Sponsor
single platform to connect hr, finance and
- [24:14]
Chris Ballard
IT with AI driven insights and automated
- [24:16]
Nature Raised Farms Sponsor
workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next.
- [24:19]
Adam Grant
Or as we call it, a delicious operational burrito. Yes, we do experience a one place
- [24:24]
Nature Raised Farms Sponsor
for all your HCM needs besties.
- [24:26]
Adam Grant
So start now@paylocity.com.
- [24:33]
Capital One Bank Announcer
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking. With Capital One, if he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply see capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.
- [25:09]
Adam Grant
I think I've seen a lot of posts on social media and also encouragement from my friend Michael, who's very into cold plunging. It seems like it's become a fitness fad, sort of a health fad. Is cold plunging actually good for us?
- [25:25]
Chris Ballard
Yeah, that is the key question. Yes, but not in all the ways that you probably have heard on social media. Would be my overarching answer. And the most frustrating part of reporting the book is you go to experts usually when you write a narrative nonfiction story and the experts answer the questions for you. And there is just a lack of deep, rigorous research in this world. So, you know, we can't really track all these claims yet. And that's frustrating because you want to be able to. And so I'd say there's four things that I would confidently say you would get out of cold plunging. You know, the first is some level of athletic recovery. This has been shown it's not great, it's not a magic bullet, but you're going to get it. And especially for soreness. Second would be the immediate mood boost, which can last up to a couple hours. And that makes sense because your body's going into fight or flight. And then you get dopamine and noradrenaline, all these neurochemicals flood you. That is combined with the fact that if you stay in at least 90 seconds, you will become weirdly calm because that fight or flight goes away. And now your body's trying to preserve, it's lowering your heart rate. So you get this interesting state of being alert and calm. And we've seen studies around this, the resilience, which is what we spoke about, and then finally the mental health, which most of the studies around have been experiential. And you could also argue how much of that's community, how much of that's being outside and how much of it is actually the cold water and how much is swimming. So that's the interesting stuff to me.
- [26:57]
Adam Grant
If you were to try to get really prescriptive based on everything you've learned, what's the optimal regimen? Are you saying, okay, do a four minute cold shower after a workout, three times a week, like, what would you boil this down to?
- [27:12]
Chris Ballard
And this also comes.
- [27:13]
Adam Grant
And I know, I know, by the way, I know this is a hard question to answer and there's a ton of nuance, but you have, I think, done the most thorough investigation of this topic that has existed in human history. So who better ask than you?
- [27:23]
Chris Ballard
Well, thank you, Adam. So if you're looking for just like a time saving way to do this, cold shower is great. That's the easiest entry. You'll get a little boost, you move on with your day. That's great. But ideally what you do is you do this with other people. So I would say that my number one thing would be like, find some friends, go to some outdoor place together. It doesn't have to be super cold, 60 degrees or lower. Go in, hang out together afterwards. You'll have a lot of positive associations about the experience in addition to any health benefits that accrue. Otherwise, we just don't have enough data to know how often you need to do it and how much. And I could say anecdotally from the people I know that the people who swim in the winter tend to go seek it out in the summer. They miss it.
- [28:08]
Adam Grant
Okay. And if I don't want to do that because my distaste for wasting time Exceeds my distaste for the cold. How long is the cold shower and how often?
- [28:18]
Chris Ballard
So you could use it strategically. Right. I'm feeling stressed. Like today, I've got a big day. I'm a little nervous this morning. Instead of going hot, I'll go cold or even like half the shower cold. That'll do it. You'll come out feeling different than you would have if you'd stayed in hot the whole time. So deploy it strategically. So if you did it two or three times a week and you did it for 90 seconds, you're probably going to see some of these benefits. Do the James Bond shower that he did in the books, which is you start hot and then just end on cold.
- [28:49]
Adam Grant
The order is counterintuitive to me. I think about, okay, if I have to do this, I'm getting the cold out of the way, and then the hot shower is a reward for it. Why do you want me to go the other way?
- [29:00]
Chris Ballard
I found, and most people find that if you come out last in the heat, you're not energetic. You know, often it's almost like if you wanted to go to bed, you'd take a hot bath. There's that feeling. What the cold does is it fires you up. You're juiced, you're ready to go. You have the dopamine on board, you have the adrenaline on board. So for work productivity, for me, if I do cold plunge, I do caffeine ahead of time, cold plunge, and then go right into two hours of deep focus work in the morning. That's my most productive time. Because you don't want to waste all those neurochemicals.
- [29:34]
Adam Grant
Oh, okay, that makes sense. But it's also a violation of Danny Kahneman's peak end rule. I do not want to land on the most painful part of the cold because then I'm going to remember how much that sucked and not want to do it tomorrow. So it sounds like there's a trade off between what's good for me today and what might motivate me to sustain the routine tomorrow.
- [29:54]
Chris Ballard
And it also the experience of the cold, for most people, at least, you may be an outlier. Right. The experience of the cold is not pleasant, but the 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes after is pleasant. And unless you're getting really cold and actually are shivering it out and there's a significant rewarm. Yeah. The moment you get out of there, you feel good and the hard part is over. And hopefully your brain can latch on to whatever those 30 minutes were when you knocked out 15 tasks.
- [30:23]
Adam Grant
Okay, this is an interesting question for peak end research. Can we essentially move the goalposts on where the end is and redefine it as yeah, this isn't over until I'm 15 minutes post cold.
- [30:35]
Chris Ballard
I mean, I guess if you obviously you know this world better than I do. But question for you, perhaps, like let's say someone really enjoys drinking alcohol and the peak is a very high peak at the moment where they're most enjoying it. But the after effects can be a terrible hangover. I think which one you remember probably determines whether you're going to do that again.
- [30:54]
Adam Grant
Yeah, I think which one you remember coupled with your self control strategies for getting your should self to override your want self or outsmart your want self.
- [31:05]
Chris Ballard
Isn't that like the everyday challenge that we all face?
- [31:07]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
Right.
- [31:08]
Adam Grant
It's one of the fundamental dilemmas of life that is actually a great segue Chris to Office hours segment. So give you the mic. What's your question for me?
- [31:18]
Chris Ballard
So I actually have a couple. So the first one I'm curious about is as a writer myself, I find your interview questions really interesting and I'm curious what the process of becoming an interviewer and doing all these interviews has taught you not only about yourself, but what have you applied more widely in life and work.
- [31:37]
Adam Grant
Ooh. Well, thank you, first of all. Secondly, I think probably the thing that surprised me most is I often ask better questions when I'm less prepared. Because what happens is you can probably tell I'm hyper conscientious and I like to set a goal and then make a plan for how to achieve it and then follow the plan. And what that means is I'm at risk for coming into a conversation, having a script and an agenda and then kind of locking into it. Whereas the best questions stem from in the moment curiosity. And I think riffing on that is one of my favorite aspects of being a podcaster, right. Is I get to learn about things that I didn't even know that I was going to want to know about. And I think the ability to think out loud in this medium is different from any other form of communication we do. You can't do it in a book, you can't do it in an article. And so this is, you know, I think this is much more freeform. And so I have actually learned in some cases to under prepare. I was just talking with our producer Jessica about this where normally we'll create a script of questions and I've noticed when I do live podcasts I have a list, but I rarely look at it because I'm so attuned to what the audience is responding to. And also, you know, my reaction is a proxy for what the audience is going to respond to. And those are often my favorite conversations. And so my best questions come from what is the burning question in the moment? And that's been a reconfiguration for me of how I instinctively work. Did that answer your question?
- [33:10]
Chris Ballard
That's a great answer, because I think we always talk about fail to prepare, prepare to fail. But there's that point where if you're so locked in on what your initial goals were, you're missing those opportunities along the way.
- [33:24]
Adam Grant
Absolutely. And for me, it's actually better in some cases. I don't want to go into an interview having not read your book, but I also don't want to come in having read it yesterday, because then everything I ask you about is basically me choreographing. It's like, you're an actor and I'm your director. I'm like, here, Chris, I have a line for you. Can you recite it as perfectly as possible? And then I'm going to pretend to be surprised by it for the audience's benefit. Whereas, you know, I think I probably read the Plunge. I don't know, was it two, three months ago? What stuck for me are a few of the stories and a few of the unexpected insights and a little bit of your personal journey. And I feel like I know just enough at this point to ask about it in ways that I'm gonna be delighted, the same way the audience is, as opposed to going through the motions with you. So I think there is such a thing as over preparing, or maybe we at least need a lag between our preparation and our performance.
- [34:18]
Chris Ballard
I love the lag idea. That's great.
- [34:21]
Adam Grant
I mean, it does mean you need to be really on top of things to do the prep well in advance.
- [34:26]
Chris Ballard
Yeah, I may not give that advice to my teenage daughters quite yet, but eventually down the line, perhaps.
- [34:32]
Adam Grant
What was your other question?
- [34:34]
Chris Ballard
So one of the older swimmers in the book had this theory about older athletes, and was that essentially, the more hard things you go through in life, whether it's losing a job, divorce, loss of a loved one, whatever it might be, you build this endurance brain. And so his theory was, some of the reasons that older athletes succeed in especially endurance sports is because they have built up this endurance brain. Essentially, the more hard stuff you do, the better you are doing hard stuff when it comes to sports. And I was curious, via research, if that's something that shows up in other areas of life as well.
- [35:11]
Adam Grant
Oh, that's. That's a really intriguing question. So I think. I think the answer is a qualified yes. I think that. I think we can say with good confidence that the more experience people have, not just facing adversity but overcoming it, the easier it is then for them to power through the next challenge that they're facing. But sometimes they have to be reminded of that capacity. So my colleague Samir Nur Mohamed led some research on this that I thought was very clever, taking people in the job search who were really struggling to find a job and having them write a narrative about not just previous difficulties they'd faced, but previous difficulties they'd overcome. And what he was doing was he was putting them in an underdog mindset, but reminding them, hey, I've done this before. I can do it again. And that boosted their, you know, their effort in the job search and ultimately increased their likelihood of finding work. And I think this is. Yeah, it's an American story, right? It's like it's been David against Goliath, and I have beaten the odds before, and that means I can do it again. And I think that's a form of conditioning. And over time, I would guess I haven't seen data for this, but I would guess that you need to be prompted less. It becomes part of your identity. I am a resilient person. I am someone who faces and surmounts obstacles. And so whatever you throw at me, I got this.
- [36:38]
Chris Ballard
That is great. And I love the idea of writing it down as well. We've seen the way that writing imprints a little better, or I'm sure verbalizing might have some of that effect as well.
- [36:47]
Adam Grant
Yeah, you and I are both biased on that one, though, as people who love the written word. But, yeah, it's hard to argue with the power of forming a story and also getting the thoughts out of your head and seeing them staring right back at you.
- [37:02]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
This episode is sponsored by Morning Brew Daily. If you're fascinated by ideas that challenge how you see the world, you're probably curious about what's happening in the world, too. Let me introduce you to Morning Brew Daily, a daily business news podcast that's a quick, fun, and easy way to start your day. Reading traditional news can feel like a chore, but hosts Neal Freyman and Toby Howell make the show feel like you're catching up with two friends rather than sitting through a lecture. Whether they're breaking down the biggest stories in business, tech, or finance, each episode gives you the context you need to feel informed in a way that's genuinely fun and engaging. It's why Morning Brew Daily is the go to business news podcast for millions of people. Start every morning feeling sharper before you've even had your first cup of coffee. Tune in to Morning Brew Daily wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every weekday.
- [37:56]
Capital One Bank Announcer
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking. With Capital One, if he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC
- [38:26]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from ted.
- [38:31]
Adam Grant
The most important lessons about work usually
- [38:33]
Chris Ballard
aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out. As you go on this show, my expert guests and I explore how careers
- [38:44]
Adam Grant
really unfold through change, through doubt, through
- [38:48]
Chris Ballard
the decisions that shape who we become over time.
- [38:51]
Adam Grant
Because those moments aren't the exception. They are the work.
- [38:55]
Chris Ballard
Listen to Work Life wherever you get your podcast podcasts.
- [39:04]
Adam Grant
So, are you ready for the lightning round?
- [39:06]
Chris Ballard
Let's do it.
- [39:07]
Adam Grant
Okay, so this whole lightning round is geared around the extensive time you've spent studying elite performers, especially elite athletes. First question is, what is the worst advice that you see people give regularly for achieving and sustaining excellence?
- [39:24]
Chris Ballard
I think it's mastery at the expense of other aspects. When you see athletes who focus on mastery too early and certainly when the outside world encourage them to do that and they don't build, you know, Steve Epstein would say, the range around it that usually doesn't lead to the same kind of outcome as if someone had other elements.
- [39:46]
Adam Grant
Hard to argue with that one. Okay, good. What about the best non obvious advice for becoming elite at your craft?
- [39:53]
Chris Ballard
I think would be homework. And by that I mean like the in the NBA, the players I saw who had spent the most time looking back over their past performance, who had the best recollection, like LeBron James has got a remarkable memory for past games and you saw this again and again. Kobe Bryant was a total basketball nerd. The people who not only did the thing, but studied the thing, studied who came before.
- [40:19]
Adam Grant
I have such a chicken and egg question about that. Which is, is it the actual studying or is it the passion that led them to do the studying that ultimately propelled them. And I would assume it's a combination of the two.
- [40:30]
Chris Ballard
Right, because if you're not passionate about it, it's not interesting to you, and so there's not the incentive to study. And so unless you're forced to do it, you're not going to do it.
- [40:39]
Adam Grant
All right, you get to organize your dream dinner party of people who are going to help you understand what it takes to reach our potential. Who are you inviting, living or dead,
- [40:48]
Chris Ballard
to reach our potential? I would probably start with one person who's going to bring a humanist approach, maybe George Saunders, someone I've always felt understood us in a way that the rest of us don't. I might bring Steph Curry because I feel like he's reached greatness without sacrificing the parts of it that we often expect others to sacrifice. Maybe I'll bring Shackleton. That would be interesting, if I can do that. And then probably someone in the research realm who could take a 30,000 view of this and study it, whoever that might be, who would be the top researcher in the field.
- [41:28]
Adam Grant
Interesting group. I would like to try to get invited to that dinner.
- [41:31]
Chris Ballard
Yes, he would be a good one.
- [41:33]
Adam Grant
We'll see. What is something you've rethought or changed your mind about lately?
- [41:37]
Chris Ballard
I think the limits that, that we find as we get older, I think there's a fair amount of expectation that as we hit a certain age, there are certain things that are not available to us anymore. And the process of reporting this book, the process of reporting stories I've done recently, have shown me that really, it's just sort of like, you know, rather than going through something, it's like water around a rock. And I feel like that is. It's a great thing to find in midlife.
- [42:05]
Adam Grant
Okay, last question for you. You declined the opportunity to persuade me to embrace the cold. I asked you to rethink your resistance to asking me to think again. Now that you've heard me complain about the cold a little bit and you know more about my psyche than you did coming in, you get one sentence to convince me that I should make cold immersion part of my routine. What's your pitch?
- [42:33]
Chris Ballard
You'll be happy you did it.
- [42:35]
Adam Grant
Now I'm just noticing you didn't say I'll be happy while I'm doing it.
- [42:40]
Chris Ballard
No, no.
- [42:41]
Adam Grant
This is like reading a classic.
- [42:42]
Chris Ballard
No, this is something that was told to me early in the process, and I was skeptical as well. And the other side of that Bridge. You don't know how to get there, and you don't know what's there, but when you get there, you eventually realize, okay, I'm glad I did that thing.
- [42:56]
Adam Grant
Well, as someone who likes both achievement and mastery, that is a very compelling argument to make, because I look at that and I think, okay, you've just reframed this as a challenge for me. Why is it so hard for me? And what's the last time I backed down from a challenge? I can do this.
- [43:14]
Chris Ballard
Yeah. The U.S. national team will hold a spot for you for the next world Championships. Adam.
- [43:19]
Adam Grant
No. No. I will not be competing, let alone finishing fifth. Thank you, Chris. This has been a lot of fun.
- [43:26]
Chris Ballard
Oh, this was great. I really appreciate it, Adam.
- [43:31]
Adam Grant
Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hilesh, Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sang Maniva, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale sue and Allison Layton Brown. Yes. Oh, I feel like I accomplished something today.
- [44:12]
Capital One Bank Announcer
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep. Even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.
- [44:42]
Adam Grant
So good, so good, so good.
- [44:45]
Nature Raised Farms Sponsor
New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores. Now get ready to save big with up to 60% off brands like Rag and Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and free people. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.
- [45:12]
Chris Ballard
Yeah.
- [45:13]
Adam Grant
Maxing is so maxing right now, bro. Get ready for spicy chicken maxing because Carl's Jr. Is saving you big with a 5.99 maxed out double stack.
- [45:21]
Chris Ballard
Double stack.
- [45:22]
Adam Grant
Double stack spicy chicken sandwich. Seriously, just $5.99 double stack spicy chicken. This is unreal value in the bromosphere. The new spicy chicken Max Wallet friendly. Max tasty only at Carl's Jr available for a limited time at participating restaurants.
- [45:39]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Tax not included.
- [45:40]
Adam Grant
Not valid for use within a combo or a combination with any other offered discount.
- [45:43]
Chris Ballard
If the world were like a Sleep
- [45:44]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
Number mattress, everything would adapt for your comfort.
- [45:48]
Chris Ballard
Your coffee would never get cold, your
- [45:50]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
flight would always be on time, and your mattress would always respond to you and your unique sleep needs. Sleep Number mattresses are designed to respond to your body and shift with your
- [46:00]
Chris Ballard
changing life, helping you fall asleep faster
- [46:03]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
and stay asleep longer.
- [46:04]
Chris Ballard
To experience a whole new world of
- [46:06]
Podcast Sponsor/Host
comfort, visit a Sleep Number store or go to sleepnumber.com sleep number to a good life Sleep.