ReThinking with Adam Grant

Episode: What being a lawyer taught John Grisham about writing novels
Date: October 14, 2025
Guest: John Grisham

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, organizational psychologist and host Adam Grant sits down with bestselling author John Grisham to explore how Grisham’s legal career shaped both his writing process and worldview. They discuss Grisham’s early days as a nervous young lawyer, the transition into writing bestselling legal thrillers, his disciplined creative routine, how he wrestles with doubt, and his profound change of heart on the death penalty. Grisham also shares insight into his approach to writing, his activism for the wrongfully convicted, and rethinking justice in America—all with candid stories, humor, and reflection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. John Grisham’s First Trial and Early Legal Experience

[03:36] – [08:01]

• First Case Nerves: Grisham recounts the harrowing experience of his first murder trial, unprepared and just seven months out of law school.

  • Quote:
    “I had no business trying that case by myself seven months out of law school.” — John Grisham [03:53]
  • He describes being so nervous before his summation that the judge sent him out to vomit, but he returned, improvised his closing, and won a not-guilty verdict.
  • Quote:
    “I had this really strong urge just to go out the hallway and start running and keep running and not come back.” — John Grisham [05:47]

• Duty and Grit: The sense of duty to his client kept him in the courtroom.

  • “You can’t just leave the courtroom and leave your client. I had a duty to my client at that point.” — John Grisham [07:18]

• Early Career Dreams: The thrill of his first win kept him motivated to pursue the dream of being a big-time trial lawyer, despite many setbacks.

2. Transition from Law to Writing

[09:10] – [11:02]

• Grisham’s dream shifted when he began writing. Despite early publishing struggles, “the freedom or to dream of doing nothing but writing books… became all consuming.” — John Grisham [10:45]
• Lack of financial reward and fulfillment in his legal career further motivated the change.

3. The Discipline of Writing

[11:02] – [15:20], [23:30] – [27:40]

• Structured Routine: Writes every morning from 7 to 11, without distraction—no phones, Internet, or music.

  • “[There’s] a period of time each morning … when I’m all alone in my writing room, my little office at home on the farm, with nobody else around… And I sit down at 7, 7:30…” — John Grisham [11:28]

• Preparation and Outlining:

  • He won’t start a novel until thoroughly working through the story, characters, and plot twists in his mind for months.
  • Creating a comprehensive outline helps him avoid getting stuck and wasting time on false storylines.

• Revision Style — Basher, Not Swooper:

  • Inspired by Vonnegut’s distinction, Grisham identifies as a “basher,” revising as he goes and keeping draft quality high.
  • “My goal each day is to write a thousand words… When I’m done, I’ve written the last sentence. I don’t want to see it again until the next morning. And when I sit down the next morning, I go back and read what I wrote the day before and make a lot of edits.” — John Grisham [23:35]

• Early Lessons: On his first book, he overwrote and later cut a third of the manuscript.

  • “The manuscript for A Time to Kill was almost 1,000 pages long. So it got rejected…” — John Grisham [26:34]
  • Lesson: Learn to streamline and make the prose “leaner, faster.”

4. Creativity, Doubt, and the Writing Process

[18:01] – [22:27], [19:41], [23:07]

• Handling Doubt: Despite a record of consecutive bestsellers, Grisham admits, “My big fear in life is I'm going to write a book and my wife is not going to like it at all. And my agent and my publisher are going to really dislike the book… It has not happened yet.” — John Grisham [19:23]

• Healthy Self-Reflection: He encourages self-doubt and careful revision as healthy and necessary for both writers and lawyers.

  • “The self-doubt is always healthy. The self-reflection is very important in psychology.” — John Grisham [19:59]

• Balancing Structure and Surprise:

  • Downplays the romantic notion of purely organic creativity, advocating for structure but allowing for surprises as a story develops.
  • “You can’t plan everything. And you don’t want to, because the surprises are always fun.” — John Grisham [14:26]

• Belief in an Idea:

  • Grisham describes a gradual process—only stories that withstand weeks and months of scrutiny and still excite him make it to paper.

5. Approaching Endings & Dealing with Doubt Mid-Book

[18:01] – [19:41]

• He recounts how his latest book, The Widow, required rewriting the ending after feedback from his wife and agent.
  • “There are times with every book when you become very frightened by what you’re writing and you say, who wants to— this story doesn’t make any sense. … And you have to, you know, fight off the doubts and keep going.” — John Grisham [18:35]

6. Quick-Fire Round: Personal Insights

[29:49] – [31:17]

• Dinner Party Guests: Mark Twain, Jackie Robinson, Howard Cosell.
• Worst Writing Advice: Don’t write multiple stories at once—a focus on one at a time is best.
• Magic Tricks: Grisham praises Grant’s card tricks, adding a humorous break.
  • “The last card trick was pretty amazing. We scattered the deck all over the floor, ceiling and walls. And then you pulled out the one card from the thin air.” — John Grisham [30:58]

7. Rethinking the Death Penalty – Personal & Moral Transformation

[31:17] – [39:56]

• Changing His Mind:

  • “I became a very strong opponent of the death penalty.” — John Grisham [31:51]
  • He describes the crucial moment: a death row chaplain simply asked, “Do you think Jesus would approve of what we do here?” [32:29]

• Moral and Pragmatic Arguments:

  • Details the errors inherent in the U.S. death penalty system, citing Texas’ record of exonerations.
  • “We as human beings should have proven by now that we can’t be trusted to kill people on behalf of the state. Even if you support the death penalty, you cannot support the system of the death penalty. There are just too many mistakes.” — John Grisham [36:21]

• Role of Literature & Activism:

  • Says he doesn't deliberately write books to change minds, but hopes to raise awareness of issues like wrongful convictions and justice.
  • “Every wrongful conviction should be its own book, should have a book, because the stories are so compelling.” — John Grisham [35:39]
  • He’s active on the board of the Innocence Project and other exoneration projects.

• On the Slow Demise of the Death Penalty:

  • Grisham points to changing attitudes among jurors, not lawmakers, leading to fewer executions in the U.S.
  • “The death penalty is dying a slow death itself. There are fewer executions, fewer death verdicts, not because of courageous lawmakers or courageous judges, but because of courageous jurors.” — John Grisham [37:45]

• The Core Argument:

  • “We can all agree that killing is wrong. So why do we allow the state to kill? We are the state. We're part of the state. … It's still wrong.” — John Grisham [39:38]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The thrill of that win, the courtroom victory was so, so enormous for a rookie.” — John Grisham [08:08]
• “If you know where you're going, it's very hard to get lost.” — John Grisham [14:08]
• “The self-doubt is always healthy.” — John Grisham [19:59]
• “You want an ending that is satisfying but not predictable. And it's gotta be plausible, it's gotta be smart, but it can't be predictive.” — John Grisham [22:45]
• “[The death penalty] is dying a slow death itself… not because of courageous lawmakers or courageous judges, but because of courageous jurors.” — John Grisham [37:45]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• First court case & early legal lessons: [03:36] – [08:01]
• Transition from law to writing: [09:10] – [11:02]
• Daily writing routine & process: [11:13] – [15:20], [23:30] – [27:40]
• Coping with doubt and creative process: [18:01] – [22:27]
• Lightning round (dinner guests, writing advice): [29:49] – [31:17]
• Changing views on the death penalty: [31:17] – [39:56]

Tone & Atmosphere

The episode balances humor (“My wife makes me take out a lot of [the jokes] because she doesn’t think I’m funny.” — John Grisham [02:10]), self-deprecation, and serious reflection. Grisham is candid and modest, and Adam Grant is curious, warm, and sharply insightful, creating a conversation that is both enlightening and accessible.

For Listeners Seeking Takeaways

• Grisham’s legal background deeply informs his storytelling, structure, and sense of justice.
• Creative success relies on discipline, humility, and the willingness to rethink—whether in courts or on the page.
• Courageous self-reflection can lead to profound personal and political transformation.