← ReThinking
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- [00:00]
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- [00:39]
Adam Grant
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- [01:32]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I know what I'm working on moving forward.
- [01:34]
Adam Grant
What are you working on, Kindle Scribe?
- [01:38]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I do believe that in politics you have to be yourself, you have to be genuine. And I actually think that in politics, especially in politics, you get pretty much what you deserve. Of course, this is not a universal theory as we know, but more or less the ones who are straightforward. Get up to the top.
- [02:02]
Adam Grant
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the Science of what Makes us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.
- [02:20]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Finland's president, Alexander Stubb, followed an unusual path into politics.
- [02:24]
Adam Grant
He was an academic specializing in political science, ended up winning a seat in European Parliament, and eventually became Finland's prime minister in 2014. But he left that role after just one year, expecting to leave politics behind altogether. After serving as Finland's finance minister, Alex
- [02:41]
Ted (Podcast Host)
went into banking and then back to academia. He wrote a book called the Triangle of Power about understanding and Bringing balance to the new world order. But political office eventually called him back, and in 2024, Alex became the president of Finland. It's a role more suited to him
- [02:57]
Adam Grant
because prime ministers focus on domestic politics,
- [02:59]
Ted (Podcast Host)
whereas presidents are more involved in foreign policy.
- [03:02]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
When I was prime minister, I started my day with a sulk. And when I'm president, I start my day with a smile.
- [03:09]
Adam Grant
And as it turns out, one of his first foreign affairs classes was actually at college in the US Where. Where he studied on a golf scholarship.
- [03:16]
Ted (Podcast Host)
But before academia, he had a few other career ideas in mind.
- [03:20]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
That's right. I mean, I think my life is pretty much along your book. Think Again and therefore rethinking. So I had a lot of dreams when I was a kid. You know, first I wanted to be a professional ice hockey player, and my dad was an NHL scout, so he saw that, no, that guy's not gonna be good enough. So I had to rethink. And then I wanted to become a professional golfer. And that actually took me to the US to study at Furman University in Greenville, South Carolina.
- [03:47]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I'd love to hear a little bit of the backstory on that, particularly because you were told by your dad that even if you didn't become a professional golfer, the skills would come in handy.
- [03:57]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Yeah, indeed. My dad had said to me when I was young that, you know, even if you don't become professional, it's going to come handy to you. And he probably meant business. But I never knew that I would end up on a golf course with the President of the United States.
- [04:11]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Tell me how that happened.
- [04:12]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I mean, it was kind of matchmaking to a certain extent. So Lindsey Graham, who is a senator in South Carolina, he was quite excited about the fact that the president of Finland, a new NATO country, has studied at Furman in South Carolina. And he knew that I was there on a little golf scholarship, and he sort of said, why don't we go and play with the President? I said, well, if you insist, sure. So we ended up playing around the golf in Florida, which was quite pleasant.
- [04:39]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Very, very different context to build a relationship than if you're sitting in the White House. What was that like?
- [04:44]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, it's, you know, anytime you spend the better part of seven hours with someone, so breakfast, then three, four hours in the course, and then lunch, you get to know a person. And anyone who plays golf knows that you play one or two holes with a person, and that reveals the personality more than any meeting room or even quality time at a dinner party, because you're kind of struggling with your own game, how people react to a good shot, a bad shot, you know, how they behave. So it was quite an opening experience, and as I said, a really pleasant one.
- [05:17]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I can imagine being a little bit nervous in that situation, because on the one hand, you don't want to be terrible. On the other hand, do you want to beat the leader of the free world? Do you want to potentially bruise his ego? How did you approach that?
- [05:30]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, I mean, two points on this. First, when you have a few hundred thousand repetitions in your body, there's no need to be nervous. You know that as a diver as well, you know, you can do a backflip or whatever on command. Even after a few years, the second issue, it was solved very easy. We were on the same team. We were playing best ball. So if I made a good score, the President would be happy. If he scored well, he'd be happy. So it was really win, win. And on top of that, we had, you know, legendary Gary Player on our team as well. And as things would happen, we did win the country club tournament. So that was fun.
- [06:07]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Congratulations. What did you see about President Trump that probably most Americans can't, having not golfed with him?
- [06:16]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, I mean, you know, I think all of us have a media Persona, and then we have a private Persona, and those two are very often different with many people. Also with the President. So, to be honest, not only is he a good golfer, but he's a lot of fun to play with. You know, there are a lot of jokes, doesn't get flustered. You know, bad shot, good shot, same type of reaction. So it was unusually good because I've seen a lot of my very good friends get completely het up about golf and going bananas, but there was none of that with the President of the
- [06:47]
Ted (Podcast Host)
US Fascinating and a little surprising to me, frankly.
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Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
As I told you, media Persona is different from private Persona.
- [06:55]
Ted (Podcast Host)
You've had, obviously, dealings with the President since then. I would love to hear a little bit about how has foreign policy been shaped by a golf game?
- [07:06]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, you can't make a direct correlation or causality there, but what quite often happens in these kinds of a setting is that you establish a relationship and then it becomes a network. So, you know, it can be a good or a bad relationship. I would argue that I have a good relationship with the President of the United States, to the point where we don't agree on everything, obviously, so we can respectfully disagree, which is a good thing. But what happens then is suddenly, if you spend that much time with the president of the U.S. other leaders get interested because they start privately to ask exactly the same questions. And then, you know, I come from a small country, so I don't have much power. But for me, information is power. So if I can then start informing my colleagues about what I think that the US Might be doing, or then I can inform what my colleagues might be doing, give that info to the US Or I can be a matchmaker between, say the President of Ukraine and the President of the US that's then what happens through networking. But it's very much a two way street and you can lose that very quickly. You know, I mean, if you don't sort of gather information, if you're not able to share information, then you're a little bit out of the game. So you have to stay active all the time. And that's what I try to do. Sometimes it goes well, at other times they can be a bit of an ebb. But you know, Adam, I'm adamant about this. I don't want to inflate my own role with the President of the United States. I mean, it's good to have a relationship. But if he picks up one out of 10 ideas, I should feel lucky. So he's very much a man of his own mind, as everyone would know by now.
- [08:45]
Ted (Podcast Host)
So we've seen. Has this made you rethink how leaders interact? Because it seems like a lot of the formality of diplomacy meetings and even, you know, when you go to a major conference, you could strip that away really quickly by playing sports together. And I wonder why we don't do this more often.
- [09:02]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, actually, many of us go jogging. That's one of the things that we do. You know, I remember being at a peace conference on Ukraine in Switzerland. I think we're about four or five leaders, went up in the mountains for a little hike and a jog. But it hasn't made me rethink about it because I have always felt that diplomacy is really about two things. One is your traditional state to state relations, which are about history, culture, values, interests, and quite often geography. So do you sort of click or do you have common interests and values to work together? And then the other side is the personal one. The personal one, you know, which is really about your capacity to communicate with someone. It's about your emotional intelligence. It's really about behavioral psychology. And the idea is that you kind of have to scrape the surface because all of us in these types of positions, we have a surface. And then it's a question of are you Able through conversation to open that person up. And then suddenly, if that person opens up in a private setting or in a small meeting, he or she will give you much more information than you would get otherwise. So it's really about building trust.
- [10:14]
Ted (Podcast Host)
When you talk behavioral psychology, do you have go to questions that you ask other leaders to get them to open up?
- [10:21]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
No, I try to read the room. I mean, quite often it can be a link to a hobby or I've read something that they have said. So that kind of opens up, but I allow the conversation to go into a flow. So today, for instance, when we're recording this podcast, it's a great day because Finland just won the world championships in ice hockey in Switzerland. So I've been getting a lot of messages from colleagues. Congratulations. So it's these kinds of small things. So it's almost like. Well, it's not almost. It is normal human interaction, but we just have this sort of image of political leaders being somehow extremely different from your bog standard, Joe Sixpack. But the truth is that we are not.
- [11:05]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Well, congrats on the hockey victory.
- [11:08]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I was fishing for that, Adam.
- [11:11]
Ted (Podcast Host)
So I want to talk a little bit about the effect of sports on your work in a different way, which is you are an avid ironman athlete. Are you still training?
- [11:21]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I mean, ironman athlete always sounds a little bit inflated. I have a philosophy, and the philosophy is that one hour of exercise gives you two more hours of energy for each day. But the reverse is true if I overTrain. So say two hours a day, it'll take one hour of energy away. So I'm not anymore what you would call an avid ironman triathlete. I have done a few ironmen. I like triathlons. So, yes, when I do my daily exercises, I swim, bike, and run, depending a little bit on the day. So I tried to get in my training, but it's much less than what it used to be because of the constraints of time, but also because all we're trying to do now with my coaches and doctors, is to maximize my energy levels.
- [12:04]
Ted (Podcast Host)
One of the research findings I really liked recently was it was a series of studies about morning workouts and why they might be good for us. And I always thought about it from an energy perspective. What I hadn't seen coming was the finding that when you work out in the morning, it actually boosts your confidence through the workday. Because just the simple experience of, okay, I navigated that challenge, I overcame that hurdle reminds you, hey, I can do the same thing in my job, and I'M curious about whether you've experienced that and whether on days where you might miss a morning workout or not have a good workout, you actually see your performance as a president suffer.
- [12:44]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I would say yes, I do feel that my spine is a little bit straighter if I train in the morning. And sometimes depending a little bit on the travel regime and others, we try to do what we call quick, short intervals because that is what sort of increases your testosterone level very quickly, but it doesn't sort of exhaust you as probably longer intervals do. So I do believe in the confidence and I'm grumpy if I don't train and my team knows it.
- [13:13]
Ted (Podcast Host)
You know, Alex, I have to tell you, I don't think that world leaders need more testosterone.
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Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I think you're right. Right now there are a few that have way too many. Even without training. I don't know what they do to get them exactly.
- [13:29]
Adam Grant
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- [15:22]
Ted (Podcast Host)
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Adam Grant
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Ted (Podcast Host)
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Adam Grant
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- [16:27]
Ted (Podcast Host)
So let's talk about your big rethinking decision. You ended up becoming Prime Minister, I think in ways that were probably surprising to a lot of people. We don't see a lot of political scientists run for office, let alone win. And then I have a vivid memory of you saying, after you finish that role, I will never be in politics again. I am done with that. So why did you go in the first place and why are you back now?
- [16:52]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Okay, so I probably have to rewind a little bit because I wanted to be a sportsman, then I wanted to be an academic, and then I was a civil servant. And when I was a civil servant, I felt a little bit constrained and never wanted to do domestic politics and I wanted to do European politics, but that was it. But then one thing led to another and I was asked to become foreign minister in 2008. And again my mentality was I just want to do foreign policy. So I was Trade and Europe foreign minister total six years. And then I was supposed to go to Brussels to become commissioner, but my predecessor as Prime Minister and party chairman said he's going to do it. So there wasn't much I could do. And my first reaction was, well, I'm not going to run for party chairman or Prime Minister, because that's not my thing. But then a week's worth of reflection. I did some rethinking. And again, against all odds, because I came from outside of politics, I won, probably with the wisdom of hindsight. Not only was it a difficult period, but it wasn't my thing. So my sort of Via Dolorosa or my two difficult years in life were from 2014 to 2016, when I was PM, Finance Minister, and party chairman, and things were not going that well. So in 2016, when I was relieved of my duties by my good friend who is now Prime Minister, who challenged me for a leadership challenge, I felt very relieved and I thought, okay. I went to banking, I did academia, and the only thing that brought me back to politics was Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine, because that made a lifelong dream of mine come true, that Finland joined NATO. And then at home with my wife and family, we discussed, should we go for one more round? And sure enough, we did. And. And here I am a little bit over two years into the mandate and
- [18:39]
Ted (Podcast Host)
you haven't rethought it yet.
- [18:41]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
No, to be honest, I know world politics is challenging, it's tough, but I'm enjoying every day of this job. I feel very privileged to serve. I love what I'm doing. It's stuff that I've been either studying or doing for over 30 years, ever since I took my first international relations class at furman University in 1990. So I love every day of this job. As difficult as it can sometimes be.
- [19:08]
Ted (Podcast Host)
How does your training as a political scientist affect the way that you lead big time?
- [19:14]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I think you know me personally well enough to know that there is a scientist in me, albeit a social scientist. So, first of all, I do two things at least. One is I create these frameworks in my head. So I try to read a lot. You know, I write a lot, and that helps me to conceptualize things. So I wrote a book called the Triangle of Rebalancing the New World Order when I was in academia, and that has helped me to frame my thinking. The second thing is that I believe in the way in which science is structured, and that allows me also to accept failure in the sense that I test ideas and then some of the ideas fly, others don't. Of course, I have to avoid major failure because it's about war and peace. So we're not testing anything of that. But when I lead to my team, I always say they have to be the guys who basically contain me. So if I come up with five ideas, I'm happy for them to shoot down four and say maybe on one. And then we test these concepts and then sometimes they work. And also in terms of leadership, I allow for a lot of failure. So, you know, my nucleus team is seven members in the cabinet, plus, you know, a few others, assistants and helping out. And I always tell them that if we succeed, it's thanks to you. If we fail, I take the blame. And that for me comes from academia and this sort of slightly scientific way of thinking.
- [20:48]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I'd just love to give our listeners a vivid view of, you know, when you're testing ideas and trying to figure out what will work and what won't, is there an anecdote or an illustration you could give us to bring that to life?
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Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, sometimes it's about communication. You know, what do we say or what do we not say when I travel, when I give press conferences, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, for instance, if I have information that Ukraine is winning on the battlefield, but we know that this information could change next week. So we pose the question, should we come out with this now and say that in the past five months, Ukraine has been able to decapacitate 35,000 Russian soldiers per month, and the Russians are only able to recruit 27,000. So therefore, mathematically, statistically, we see that Ukraine has an edge. And the question is, do we do it or not? And when do we do it? So these are the types of questions that we do then. I'm also quite scientific. I want to use a lot of numbers in my speeches and also in my interviews, because they stick with people. So a lot of my team has to do probably more academic kind of research before we come up with a thesis or a hypothesis. And it has helped, I think, me personally, hopefully also my communication.
- [22:13]
Ted (Podcast Host)
How are you leading differently this time with the benefit of the two years that you did originally as pm.
- [22:19]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
First of all, the team is smaller, but the big difference is that everyone works in one direction. So the first meeting I had with my Ed de camp, so I have three military officers who basically take care that I survive. And the first thing my first aide de camp said, Mr. President, we're here to protect you as an institution. So it's a team. Whereas if you are a prime minister in a coalition government, or if you are a party chairman with some conservatives, some Liberals, some centrist. There's always going to be intrigue. The party doesn't work as a team, the government doesn't work as a team. And on top of that, you're fighting an opposition and probably a media that in the right way works against you because of media freedom. The other big difference is that when you're Prime Minister, a majority of the population wants you to fail for ideological reasons. Whereas as president, I'm in charge of foreign policy and I'm the commander in chief and for US foreign policy with a border of 830 miles with Russia and is existential. So everyone wants the President to succeed. And I feel very much more confident as president than I was as Prime Minister because that was about domestic politics, which wasn't my strength.
- [23:42]
Ted (Podcast Host)
You mentioned the extensive border that you share with Russia. You've spent time up close with Vladimir Putin and you've obviously spent a lot of time trying to understand his psychology. I'd love to hear you just make sense of how do you influence, persuade, negotiate with somebody who is very difficult, first of all to move and secondly to reason with.
- [24:05]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, I mean, first of all, I probably have to qualify. So when I have met Putin, I was usually a minister in a delegation with the then President or then Prime Minister. So I was a backbencher and it didn't happen very often. I've only met him a handful of times. I know Sergei Lavrov much better who is the Foreign Minister of Russia. So I think the first thing you have to understand is never underestimate someone like Vladimir Putin or someone like Sergei Lavrov. They're extremely intelligent, well read human beings. Secondly, understand that they are strong Russian nationalists and we are all prisoners of our own identity. The narratives of history that we have grown up with and the narrative of history for someone like Vladimir Putin, who is former kgb, comes not only from the Cold War, so very much a zero sum ideological thinking, but it's also historical perspective where he sees Russia as a major power and as an empire. That's why he talks about the biggest travesty in recent history being the dismantling of the Soviet Union. That's why he hails someone like Stalin, who after all was a mass murderer, killing millions of people of his own and around the world. So his philosophy is very much what we call Ruskimir, which is one Russia, which means basically Russia's borders of the 1800s when it was a great power. And that means that there is one Russia, one language, one religion and one leader. And then when you understand that you can try to have an impact or an influence. But as we can see, you know, Vladimir Putin doesn't exactly take advice from anyone, not from the president of Finland, let alone from the President of the United States.
- [26:01]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Well, I think this relates to one of my big takeaways from the Triangle of Power, which is you make a case that listening is an underrated leadership skill.
- [26:10]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Yeah, it's true. I think sometimes we have leaders who simply don't listen. I try to go into any meeting, sometimes succeeding at other times not to learn something, learn something from that person. There's a reason why I travel a lot. So in the first two years, I've done 75 travels abroad, 25 in Finland. I was just in Jordan meeting the king of Jordan. I was in Egypt meeting the president of Egypt. I was in Canada meeting the Prime Minister of Canada, et cetera, et cetera. So I tried to sort of soak in information and listen to what they have to say. And when we prepare for these meetings with my team, like we had today with the president of Slovenia, I wanted to understand the dynamics of countries such as Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia Herzegovina, Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia. And so I try to listen as much as I possibly can. But, of course, sometimes you fail. You know, people in my line of work are not usually very shy. Sometimes they are pretty bad listeners, including myself. But I try to work at it all the time.
- [27:24]
Ted (Podcast Host)
This makes me wonder a little bit about the Nordic tendency toward. I've heard it described as janteloven.
- [27:31]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Jajteloven. Okay. I don't know that word.
- [27:33]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Oh, well, okay. So I'm gonna try to teach you something about your world. Are you ready for this?
- [27:38]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Very good. See, there you go. I'm listening. This is Nord splaining, but it sounds like Icelandic.
- [27:44]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I think it's originally Danish, maybe. But the basic concept is, like, you follow the law of Jante, and one of the core laws is you have to remember you're no better than anybody else. It's supposed to be a Nordic code that enforces humility, or at least cultivates and nurtures humility. And it's such an interesting thing to me to think about. On the one hand, we know the value of humility and leadership. It reminds you that you don't know everything. You have lots to learn from the other people around you. At the same time, politics is not a sphere of life that we associate much with humility. And I'd just love to hear a little bit about how you. You walk that tightrope.
- [28:22]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Sure. Well, first of all, actually, if you look at the five Nordics, so Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland, you would probably make an argument that the most understated and humble and modest are the Finns. It's because we are.
- [28:38]
Ted (Podcast Host)
He says with pride.
- [28:40]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
He says with pride. And you know, a lot of my Finnish compatriots, they say, alex, you know, you don't resemble a Finn at all, but they just laugh at it. But the bottom line is that we are actually inherently quite shy. We speak a very different language, a language which is expressive when you speak it to your kin and your countrymen, but doesn't translate well into other languages. So we do have that humbleness and modesty that is very inherent. But then if you look at the Icelanders, probably same thing, and the Norwegians, and the reason for all of this is that we actually gained our political independence quite late. Norway from Sweden, Iceland from Denmark, Finland from Russia. So, you know, there is this sort of modesty. So we haven't been a major power ever, like Sweden, for instance. But there is this, you know, all of us Nordics, we are at the end of the day, quite humble. We're quite proud of what we do. You know, if you look at all the top rankings in the world, whether it's, you know, quality of life, environment, quality of water, democracy, freedom, index, et cetera, et cetera, or happiness.
- [29:55]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I was waiting for you to mention happiness.
- [29:57]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Finally, happiness. Finland's been the happiest country in the world for eight years running, so we're proud of that. But at the same time there's this sort of toned down happiness with it, and we're quite at ease with who we are. I quite often say that in Finland we are calm, cool and collected. And then when the X hits the fan, as you would say in a public program, we go into the sauna and take a cold bath. And I think that's quite descriptive of who we Finns are.
- [30:29]
Ted (Podcast Host)
How do you think about the Finnish happiness advantage? I'm so curious about what do you. I mean, obviously there are lots of factors that come into play, but what do you think are the key contributing factors?
- [30:41]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, first of all, you know that happiness is subjective, so you know, it's something that comes from who you are. Then there is another subjective matter, and that is that I think the happiness index accumulates. So if you're ahead for eight years, you're going to continue to be there quite high up for a while, the way in which the UN has set it up. But I think it comes from pretty Basic things. So it's a bit of Maslow's hierarchy of needs type of thinking that in my mind, happiness comes from meaning and meaning comes from helping someone else. And in order for you to be able to do that, you need a society which is egalitarian. So you give everyone pretty much equal opportunity through education. I think we're also a fair society. I mean, never perfect. I don't claim that we have a very close attachment to nature, but all of those things can be found in Norway or in Sweden or in Denmark or in Iceland as well, let alone the Baltic states. So, you know, we've been lucky because we also, we don't exactly show our happiness. So give me any Monday morning in a tram in Helsinki in November, and you're not going to go into that tram feeling that, whoa, these people are really happy because that's just how it is. But believe me, after we won the world championships in ice hockey and because of summer, we are very happy.
- [32:05]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Which is still probably understated by American standards.
- [32:08]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Exactly.
- [32:09]
Ted (Podcast Host)
You've mentioned the education system, which also has been, I think, a great source of Finnish pride for a long time. One of the things that I was blown away by when I studied the Finnish education system was just the amount of care and attention that goes to each student to say, we want to bring out the best in every student. And so instead of the American no Child Left behind in Finland, the goal is for every child to get ahead. And I really, I could not believe that the norm is for every school to have a team of psychologists and social workers who are actually checking in on the well being of each student, not just their grades. You were obviously shaped in formative ways by the Finnish education system. What mattered most from your perspective and what could the rest of the world learn from what Finland is doing?
- [32:56]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, well, I probably wasn't the model student at school. I'm quite open about that. But I think a lot of it starts from the sort of Aristotelian thinking that there's nothing more noble than teaching the young. And that mentality then goes into the education system. It's extremely difficult to become a fully qualified teacher because you need a master's degree in education. The community itself is good as well. And you know, no school is of course perfect, as we know, no teacher is perfect, no kid is perfect. But we try to bring everyone up in an egalitarian way. We don't have too many private schools here. They're all public schools. And the good thing is also that the teachers get a Lot of autonomy to teach. There is a curriculum, but you're not forced to follow one particular curriculum. And the pride that I see in the eyes of the teachers when I visit was really good. Now, I have to admit that as president, I've probably now been to 10 schools since I started, even 15. And all the schools they take me to are brand new and they're in great shape. And of course, I'm getting a slightly skewed, you know, but it's. The system seems to work well and we're very proud of it.
- [34:07]
Ted (Podcast Host)
You said something earlier that really surprised me. You said you lost because you were challenged by your good friend who is friends with the person who causes them to lose their job.
- [34:18]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
So basically, it's Finnish politics, so it's a bit complicated. But he, Petri Orpo, who is now our prime minister, he defeated me in 2016 for a party chairman, and he was really humming and haing about challenging, and he felt really sorry about it. And I said, you know, don't feel sorry about it, just go for it. But for me, it was one of those things that I never give up. So I went in for the fight knowing that I might lose, but I didn't allow that, you know, to cross my mind. And when I lost, I felt it was like Liberation Day. So, to be honest, my wife and I, at the conference center, when I lost the vote, we went out for a jog and opened a bottle of champagne and started to think about what our world would look like after the job. And I hold no grudges because I think he's a good guy. And in politics, there are people, to be honest, who are good, and then there are people who are really bad who I simply cannot stand. So had it been someone who I disliked, I would probably not be as positive about it. But I was happy to hand it over to him, and for all intents and purposes, seems to me that he's done a good job for himself.
- [35:24]
Ted (Podcast Host)
That's fair. Well, you know, I think you're also demonstrating something right now that has been a real asset for you, but could easily be a liability, which is just the level of candor and straightforwardness that you speak with. I think you're probably unusually blunt, both for a Finn and for a politician. And, yeah, we can imagine all sorts of ways in which being unfiltered could be a problem, but I think you've used it to your advantage. I'd love to hear a story about how and a little bit of explanation of what's behind this Well, I think
- [35:56]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
because I came from outside of politics. I was 36 when I went into politics, so that's relatively late. And I was very much running on the ticket of being an expert on European affairs and running for the. And I said things that I felt that were true and quite bold. And I think a lot of people at the time felt that he not only knows his things, but he's honest about it. The problem, of course, in politics is that quite often you might get into trouble for being too blunt. So you do have to filter stuff. I mean, even when we're speaking right now, subconsciously, I am filtering and not saying things that I know that might get me into trouble. And this is not only because behind the camera, I can see my head of communication, and I know that she will pop her head up from behind the screen and give me angry faces if I go in the wrong direction. So, you know, it's not complete now. She got up, so it's not, you know, completely unfiltered.
- [36:56]
Ted (Podcast Host)
You.
- [36:56]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
You always do that. But, you know, I see a lot of people who I think are not honest. I think they're fake. And I never see them really climbing up the highest ladder, or if they climb there, they fall down very quickly. And I take comfort in that.
- [37:16]
Ted (Podcast Host)
One of the things I've been thinking a lot about when it comes to the rise of a particular style of a political leader is we have seen an authoritarian turn in the past decade or so around the world. And one of the patterns I've seen in the evidence that at first surprised me and then was ultimately illuminating was in times of turbulence and in times of especially stress, people are often drawn to the confidence of a strong man or a strong woman leader. And they take the, you know, the assurances that I'm in charge as a signal that this person is also going to do right by their country or look out for their people's best interests. And I look at that and I think, well, there's a big gap between what authoritarian leaders stand for and what a servant leader would do. I worry a lot that we, you know, we end up with takers instead of givers if we elevate that style. And it. It sort of creates a chicken and the egg problem because we need a. A more stable world in order to get people to be less drawn to authoritarians and not get that false sense of security from strength. But it's those leaders who are contributing to the instability in the first place. So I would love it if you could enlighten me A little bit on where do we intervene in that cycle, how do we change that dynamic?
- [38:37]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Okay, well, let me preface this by saying, you know, a thing that I said in the book as well. I think we human beings make three mistakes. We over rationalize the past, so think that something happened a certain way even though it's a few hundred years away. Second, we overdramatize the present. So you and I live very much in the present and think that this is probably the most challenging time in the history of mankind, which obviously we know it's not. And then thirdly, when we make these two mistakes, we underestimate the future. So that's where we come to your intervention question. I personally think that democracy has not adapted to modern technology because modern technology allows us to express ourselves within seconds. And democracy was supposed to be slow and compromise seeking and all of these things. And now we live in this sort of cacophony of stuff. Information is thrown at us all the time and we have to react to it. And that makes the world seem quite messy. Then there's a big promise of democracy that everyone's GDP per capita will grow. And some people feel that, well, you know, the promise that I was given didn't happen. And therefore we start basically voting for people who promise things which they then can't keep. So then we seek for these usually actually strong men who, you know, promise us stability from around the world. And this is a cycle of democracy. But the good thing with democracy, it's a little bit like an academic study. It does, you know, test in different directions and then you get a solution. And that's why I think that liberal democracy with all of its weaknesses is still the best. One final point. Yeah, we seek stability. We human beings are conservative, you know, I mean, we like to sometimes just feel that there's nothing new in life we don't want to rethink. You know, rethinking is tough. It's hard. It hurts the brain. You know, you have to connect your neural lasers. It's painful. But all I'm saying to everyone listening today is just have faith. You know, things have a tendency to work out, but you have to work actively at democracy. You have to take the agency that is given to you. You have to vote. You have to try to have impact. You have to be an activist of sorts.
- [40:53]
Adam Grant
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- [41:19]
Ted (Podcast Host)
And it goes beyond looks.
- [41:21]
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- [42:42]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I know what I'm working on moving forward.
- [42:44]
Adam Grant
What are you working on Kindle Scribe?
- [42:51]
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- [43:32]
Ted (Podcast Host)
All right, let's go to a lightning round. Are you ready?
- [43:34]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I'm ready. I'm ready.
- [43:36]
Ted (Podcast Host)
All right, what is the worst advice you've ever been given, career wise?
- [43:40]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Run for Prime Minister.
- [43:44]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I'm glad you followed it anyway. Cause you wouldn't be here where you are now, probably without it, but exactly. Nevertheless, you get to arrange a dinner party with anyone from history. Who are you inviting?
- [43:56]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Okay. I would like to go back to the big figures in history and probably have a mix of intellectuals and politicians. So off the top of my head, I would like to have Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King. I would like to have Virginia Woolf, Mahatma Gandhi, Alexander Hamilton, because I was a huge fan of him even before the musical. I would probably like to have someone like Bertrand Russell just to get the sort of philosophical thing. I would like to have Freud there. I would like to have.
- [44:38]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Oh, you lost me on Freud, Alex.
- [44:41]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I know, I know. But, you know, it's just. I also would like to have Marx there, Adam Smith, probably Keynes. So people who have thought big about the big issues in mankind and humanity. And then finally, I would probably have a few industrialists on the way to understand the first industrial revolution, the second and the third.
- [45:08]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Sounds like an incredible group. I think the one thing missing is a comedian, because every court needs a jester.
- [45:14]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
That's true, that's true. My favorite one right now is Norwegian. Her name is Pernilla Haaland and she takes the mickey out of me on Instagram.
- [45:23]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Oh, can't wait. Okay, we'll look her up. What's something you've changed your mind about recently?
- [45:28]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Talking to Putin. So basically, there has been very much a no go thinking that Europeans should not speak with Putin when the war is going on. But I have changed my mind on that. I think someone in Europe needs to do that and try to mediate peace.
- [45:45]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I'm glad that you've come around on that, because last I checked, peace does not happen through failing to interact.
- [45:52]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
You're absolutely right. Peace needs engagement. It needs mediation. It needs compromises, it needs work. It is painful. My big hero is actually President Marti Atisari, who was one of my predecessors, won the Nobel Peace Prize for mediating peace on three continents. In Namibia, in Kosovo, and in chain, Indonesia. And he used to say that whatever humans begin, humans can also end. And he also used to say that it's not the mediator that counts, but it's the fact that the two warring parties, at the end of the day, feel that the deal is part of them.
- [46:27]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Okay, last question for you. I'll give you the microphone. What's the question you have for me?
- [46:34]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
If you were 30 years old and you wanted to change the world, would you go into politics?
- [46:42]
Ted (Podcast Host)
No, you would not.
- [46:43]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Why is that?
- [46:44]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I think that most of the politicians that I've gotten to know, I've been surprised by how constrained they feel, by how limited their influence is. And I think that if you want to change the world, I would say pick a role where you have more freedom, as opposed to a role that's heavily constrained by the relationships you have to maintain, by the formal duties that you're charged with. It's not to say that politicians can't or don't change the world, but I think that freedom is a big factor in being able to have influence. And yeah, I think the entrepreneurs I talk to, for example, they feel much more powerful in terms of their ability to pursue their goals, to try to drive change. And I think that just seems like a more direct path. What do you think?
- [47:33]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Well, I think it's, you know, six of one, half a dozen of the other. So it depends a little bit on whether you want individual freedom and comfort, then I would go with you. But if you strongly feel that you need to have impact, say in a liberal democracy, you need to intervene in this world where we might end up with strongman rule, then someone has to take the sort of community society hit and do it. But all I want to say to all youngsters who are thinking about a political career, it can be tough, and most political careers end in tears. So in that sense, that's just how it goes. I have a final question, if I'm allowed.
- [48:17]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Bring it on.
- [48:18]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
What is artificial intelligence going to do to behavior of psychology? And I can only give you one minute to the answer.
- [48:28]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I think anybody who believes that they can answer that question is lacking the humility that we were talking about. I don't think anyone knows. I think one thing we can see in the data currently is that a lot of people are offloading their thinking to AI, and a lot of other people are enriching their thinking with AI. And my guess is that we're going to see a bimodal distribution. I think that we're probably going to see a significant deficit of critical thinking for a subset of the population and a significant enhancement of critical thinking for the other subset. And I think we're probably looking at a distinction that Jeff Hancock and his colleagues have used to say, look, at the end of the day, what really matters is are you a passenger or a pilot? And I think the passengers are losing and the pilots are winning.
- [49:17]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I fully agree with you. And I think to probably anyone listening, what I draw comfort in, because I'm a strong believer in emotional intelligence and you and I have brains which are about three pounds. And in order for that brain to work, we only need to produce about 20, 30 watts of power. And we make these types of connections that no machine can make. Whereas artificial intelligence needs acres and acres of data centers and millions and millions of watts of power. So don't underestimate the capacity of the brain to deal with issues such as artificial intelligence.
- [49:56]
Ted (Podcast Host)
That is such a compelling way to make the case for the human edge.
- [50:00]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Exactly.
- [50:01]
Ted (Podcast Host)
Alex, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today on Rethinking.
- [50:05]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
Thank you. My pleasure.
- [50:09]
Adam Grant
Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Layton Brown.
- [50:40]
Ted (Podcast Host)
I think you told me downhill skiing was for wimps and real athletes do cross country.
- [50:44]
Alexander Stubb (President of Finland)
I don't have anything against downhill skiing. I've been doing it ever since I was 6 years old. I just like to do mountaineering. I'd much rather walk up the hill than come down.
- [51:01]
Elise Hu
You've seen the headlines. Technology is reshaping nearly every part of our daily lives. But have you stopped to consider what it's doing to your body? I'm Elise Hu, host of TED Talks Daily, and this week we're taking a closer, more personal look at how tech is changing the way we think, feel and physically experience the world around us. Minouche Zomorodi is taking over as guest host to interview scientists, doctors, artists, parents and more to explore your body on tech. Learn how to live a healthier, more grounded life in this high tech era by listening to these talks and special conversations only on TED Talks Daily. Wherever you get your podcasts.