Why a chatbot can’t raise your kid with Dana Suskind

Summary

Podcast Summary: ReThinking with Adam Grant – “Why We Need Friction in Relationships” with Dana Suskind
Date: July 21, 2026
Host: Adam Grant (TED)
Guest: Dr. Dana Suskind (Pediatric Cochlear Implant Surgeon, Professor, Author of “30 Million Words” and “Human Raised”)

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the essential role of “friction”—the messy, imperfect, and sometimes challenging aspects of real human interaction—in healthy childhood development and meaningful relationships. Dr. Dana Suskind, author and pediatric surgeon, joins Adam Grant to discuss why human presence and imperfection are critical for raising resilient, empathetic children, especially amid the rise of AI companions and digital parenting tools. The conversation also covers how technology can support rather than replace parenting, the perils of frictionless AI companions, and guidelines for navigating AI-enabled toys and devices.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of Friction and Imperfection in Parenting

• Friction Builds Humanity:
  “The way we learn to be human, the way we learn to connect is exactly through the friction-filled human interaction that you get with good enough parenting. I was one of those good enough parents that had lots of missteps and ruptures, but that is exactly how we teach children how to survive and navigate a human world.”
  — Dana Suskind [01:35]

• Imperfect (Good Enough) Parenting:
  Mess-ups and “rupture and repair” cycles in relationships are not only inevitable but essential for teaching resilience, empathy, and social skills.

• Memorable Quote:
  “There is so much that we don’t understand about how children learn those important soft skills, empathizing, critical thinking, curiosity, all those skills that we want them to have. ... There’s so much that we don’t understand about that connection, that the active ingredients might not be there, and you end up being left not developing those skills.”
  — Dana Suskind [04:02]

2. The Lure and Limits of AI Companions

• Frictionless AI—A Double-Edged Sword:
  Adam Grant posits the seductive upside of AI companions—consistent availability, nonjudgmental empathy—but Dr. Suskind explains that friction-free relationships don’t challenge us to grow. Instead, they can “de-skill” us from connecting with real people.

• Risks of Artificial Attachment:
  AI companions might be more present or responsive than humans, but this absence of rupture and repair deprives children of crucial developmental experiences.
  “What does it mean to be human raised? ... It’s through human presence and human connection. ... Human babies are born incredibly underdeveloped ... and that helplessness is actually the origins of our brilliance, because our babies are born too early. ... It is literally built by human interaction.”
  — Dana Suskind [05:28]

• “Artificial Attachment” Hypothesis:
  Children need to learn that the world consists of other people whose perspectives and needs sometimes conflict with theirs—a lesson a frictionless, sycophantic AI cannot teach. [10:59]

3. Early Childhood Interaction: Nature, Science, and Nuance

• The “30 Million Words” Finding and Its Limits:
  Dana unpacks the 1990s study suggesting affluent children hear 30 million more words than those in poverty.
  “There are many issues with that specific study, but I view that as really just a first sentence in a robust literature showing the power of interaction in the early years for building a child’s brain. ... Talk and interaction feeds the brain.”
  — Dana Suskind [08:58]

• Quality > Quantity in Interaction:
  It’s not just the number of words but the richness and back-and-forth, emotionally engaged interaction that truly develop brains and social skills.

• Attachment and “Neural Synchrony”:
  Real human contact creates brain synchrony and stronger social bonds; AI cannot replicate this.
  — [10:59]

4. Technology in Children’s Lives: Present and Future

• AI in the Playroom:
  Frictionless AI is already seeping into childhood:

  • Screen time embedded with “AI slop” (content of questionable quality) is ubiquitous. 40% of 2-year-olds have iPads.
  • Some plush toys now have LLM (large language model) chatbots built in.
    “It won’t be like, oh, all of a sudden children are being raised by robots. It will be a slow sort of march.”
    — Dana Suskind [12:43]

• Passive Media vs. Interactive AI?
  Is it better for a child to interact actively with AI than to passively watch TV shows? Dana urges a third path:
  “Why don’t we leverage [AI] in ways that take off the burden ... to allow more human presence rather than saying, ‘isn’t this better than screen time?’ ... It’s sort of like saying, oh well, if you take some cigarettes you’ll eat less. ... We don’t need to replace one not positive child centered thing with another.”
  — [14:09]

5. Constructive Uses of Technology in Parenting

• AI as Copilot (Not Replacement):
  Positive possibilities: AI tools can give busy parents targeted, helpful feedback about their parenting style, suggest improvements, or take over administrative burdens so parents can spend more quality time with their children.

  “How can [AI] make us better at the things that we want to be better on? How can it support us rather than replacing us?”
  — Dana Suskind [16:24]

• Potential Pitfalls:
  Even helpful AI tools must be implemented carefully to avoid “crowding out” community and “the village” parents rely on. [17:27]

6. Following Your Parental GPS

• Trusting Parental Instincts:
  Despite evolving technology and expert advice, Suskind encourages parents to rely on their own unique understanding of their child.
  “We all have a parental GPS embedded in our DNA. ... Only you can really understand your child. ... Your understanding of your child supersedes any LLM.”
  — Dana Suskind [18:07]

• When Instinct Isn’t Enough:
  Seek guidance from your community (“the village”) and don’t be afraid to “ride the tide” of uncertainty. Sometimes, just listening to your child reveals what they need. [19:44]

• Embracing Opposite Day:
  If your instincts are mismatched to your child’s temperament, sometimes doing the opposite can open new paths (“at least you’re making a new mistake as opposed to repeating the same old patterns”).
  — Adam Grant [20:49]

• Liberation in “Good Enough”:
  Messes and mistakes are opportunities to teach imperfection, not failures to avoid. “My mess ups ... were really my opportunity to teach my children that the world isn’t perfect, that parents can love you and still not be perfect.”
  — Dana Suskind [21:02]

---

The HOPE Framework: Guidelines for Parenting in the AI Era

Dana offers a practical framework for navigating technology and parenting policy:

• H – Human Connection Is Irreplaceable:
  Not just a nice-to-have, but a biological necessity. [24:44]

• O – Own Your Imperfections:
  Embrace productive struggle in relationships and growth.

  • Strong friendships, as with kids, are forged through rupture and repair, not seamless compatibility.
  • “The effort builds the muscle.” [27:40]

• P – Protect the Early Years:
  The brain’s “hard drive” is written early; remain vigilant about how and when AI enters young children’s lives.

• E – Enhance, Not Replace:
  Technology should assist caregivers, not do the caregiving itself.
  “AI should assist the caregiver, not give the care ... The most important place that we don’t want to be replaced is in parenting.” [32:15]

---

Practical Guidelines & Evaluating AI Products

• AI Toys = Processed Foods Spectrum:
  Some AI products are like wholesome bread—useful tools supporting development. Others are like Twinkies—ultra-processed entertainment with little developmental value.

  • Tools for entertainment only: Use sparingly.
  • Tools with specific educational or therapeutic goals: May be appropriate after vetting. [30:43]

• General Principle:
  Prioritize experiences and tools that foster real human interaction over those that simply occupy children or automate connection.

---

Lightning Round Highlights

• Worst Advice:
  “That you have to be a perfect parent and the stakes are high with every single action that you give.” [35:25]

• Best Advice:
  “No action is that big of a deal and sometimes you just have to ride the tide. It’ll be okay.” [35:37]

• Dream “Parenting” Dinner Party:
  Geoffrey Hinton’s parents, Ada Lovelace’s parents, Martin Luther King’s parents, Adam Grant’s parents. (Prompting laughter and surprise from Adam.) [36:02]

• Changed Mind As a Physician:
  AI-driven “ambient” documentation tools (for note-taking) have increased direct patient connection, offering a constructive medical application for tech. [36:35]

• Privacy Caveat:
  AI tools listening in clinics can create privacy concerns, especially for marginalized communities. [37:30]

---

Bigger-Picture Questions: Empathy, Village, and Society

• Can We Expand Our Circle of Care?
  Dr. Suskind asks if society can truly love “all children as our own” or whether we’re biologically bound to our own tribe.

  • Adam Grant’s View:
    We need both: strong attachment to our kids plus a broader, bounded village.
    • Start local—support the children nearest you.
    • Recognize the power of non-parental support as teens need outside mentors. [38:46]

---

AI, Generational Angst, and Erasure

• Why Are Young People Booing AI at Commencements?
  Mix of psychological, economic, and existential fears (job security, identity, meaning).

  • Students sometimes feel AI is imposed by older generations with little regard for their future employability. [41:33]

• Deeper Fear: Erasure of Humanity:
  “Our identity as humans and what it means to be human is sort of this larger existential...”
  — Dana Suskind [42:49]

• Silver Lining:
  Tech leaders are being forced to address the human and societal side of AI adoption. [44:59]

---

Final Thoughts & Memorable Moments

• Hopeful Guardians:
  Dr. Suskind concludes parents can (and should) be “guardians at the gate” for healthy human development in the AI era. [45:10]

• The Takeaway:
  True connection, imperfection, and messy human interaction are not flaws in child-rearing—they are the essential ingredients for raising full humans. Technology, used wisely, should deepen and enhance—not substitute—our capacity for presence, empathy, and growth.

---

Notable Quotes

• “Friction is how we both learn and learn to be human.”
  — Dana Suskind [24:44]

• “AI should assist the caregiver, not give the care.”
  — Dana Suskind [32:15]

• “Go with what feels right and knowing that your presence is what’s most important.”
  — Dana Suskind [26:46]

• “Parents can love you and still not be perfect.”
  — Dana Suskind [21:02]

• “It is loving your kids and being present.”
  — Dana Suskind [26:46]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:35] — The importance of friction (“good enough” parenting)
• [05:28] — The meaning of “human raised”
• [08:58] — The science behind “30 million words”
• [10:59] — Attachment theory & friction vs. AI
• [12:43] — AI’s current infiltration of children’s lives
• [16:24] — How AI can constructively support parenting
• [18:07] — Parental “GPS” and trusting yourself
• [20:49] — “Opposite Day” and rethinking parental instincts
• [24:44] — The HOPE framework for AI-age parenting
• [30:43] — Evaluating AI toys via the “processed foods” spectrum
• [32:15] — “AI should assist, not replace” in caregiving
• [35:25] — Lightning round: best/worst advice for parents
• [38:46] — Expanding our circle of care for others’ children
• [41:33] — Commencement booing: AI, identity, and future anxiety
• [45:10] — Concluding hope: Parents as “guardians at the gate”

---

For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode offers a balanced, hopeful, and practical roadmap for navigating parenting and childhood development in an age where AI is ever more prevalent. The key? Real, messy, and imperfect human relationships.

Transcript

[Adam Grant]

This podcast is supported in part by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results. On this show, we spend a lot of time questioning assumptions, especially the ones we've accepted as just the way things are. One assumption many organizations rarely rethink how their financial operations actually get done. That's why smart leaders turn to Bill with AI powered automation. Bill isn't just moving money, it's reducing the manual work of invoices and expenses for nearly half a million businesses. In fact, Bill reports that 98 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust them to manage, move and maximize their clients money all in one place. The right systems can free up time, reduce drag and make growth more intentional. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with a platform built to evolve with you. Visit bill.com proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and and get a $150 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com proven terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details. If you run a business or work with employers on benefits, you know the story. Group health insurance costs keep climbing and the plans rarely fit everyone's needs. There's a newer model worth knowing about called an ichra, which lets employers set a contribution and employees choose their own health plan based on their doctors who budget and what actually works for them. Healthcare isn't a group decision, so why should coverage be get coverage you control? Find out if an ICHRA is right for [e-mail]

[Dana Susskind]

the way we learn to be human, the way we learn to connect is exactly through the friction filled human interaction that you get with good enough parenting. I was one of those good enough parents that had lots of missteps and ruptures, but that is exactly how we teach children how to survive and navigate a human world.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant.

[Adam Grant]

Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with TED on the Science of what Makes us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people who explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Dana Susskind is a pediatric cochlear implant

[Adam Grant]

surgeon, a researcher and professor at the

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

University of Chicago, and a best selling author.

[Adam Grant]

Her pioneering work on childhood development led to her first book, 30 Million Words, on how early exposure to language influences brain development.

[Dana Susskind]

AI has evolved, we have not. We want to just connect wherever we can.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Dana continues her exploration of childhood development

[Adam Grant]

in her new book Human Raised. It's a science backed guide to parenting

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

in the age of AI Dana is an expert on early connection, and I can't think of a better voice to

[Adam Grant]

help us figure out how to not

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

screw up our kids. There's been a lot of discussion about, like, AI companions romantically. I've heard less conversation about how AI might interfere with our parenting or might substitute for our parenting. But I have to tell you, as I started reading your book and I started thinking about what are all the ways that AI raised kids could be disadvantaged or deprived, it did cross my

[Adam Grant]

mind that there are some upsides.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I think a good AI chatbot would never be an abusive parent. I think you could get unconditional love. You could have a parental figure who's always available, always responsive, no matter what time of day is what the issue is. And then I think about the evidence that people feel more cared about and empathized with and seen when they interact with a chatbot than a human, at least by text. And I think maybe this isn't so bad. Tell me why I'm wrong.

[Dana Susskind]

What you just described is exactly the seduction of these AI companions, the frictionless openness, sycophantic. You're always right, you're always seen, and there's obvious seduction of that. So, yes, you can imagine why people are flocking to AI companions, but it is exactly how we will sort of de skill ourselves from being able to connect to other humans. The stance that I take is that there is so much that we don't understand about how children learn those important soft skills, empathizing, critical thinking, curiosity, all those skills that we want them to have. And we may provide what we think is the perfect coach, but there's a lot that we don't know and sort of in the similar ways that social media at some level makes a whole lot of sense. Right? You're being connected to all these people around the world. Why wouldn't you feel more connected? But it's because there's so much that we don't understand about that connection that the active ingredients might not be there, and you end up being left not developing those skills. So I think science needs to be part of it. I mean, certainly AI is an incredible technology, but we need to be very thoughtful in how we go forward.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So talk to me about what it looks like to be human raised in an age of AI.

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah. So what does it mean to be human raised? Human raised isn't a rejection or an embrace of tech. It's really understanding what do children need to develop fully as humans, Fully from a cognitive standpoint, all Those things that we've been optimizing forever, but also those important soft skills. How do we raise children so they can have critical thinking, be empathetic, connect all of those skills that you're going to need to have in the age of AI? And really, it's through human presence and human connection. You see, when you're born human babies are born incredibly underdeveloped. They're like little helpless blobs. And that's why parenting is so incredibly hard. But that helplessness is actually the origins of our brilliance, because our babies are born too early. So in those early years, the brain is built. 85% of the physical brain is built, and it is literally built by human interaction. Talking, nurturing, joint attention, physical touch that is building that brain. And based on those early years, that predicts not just how people do in the workforce, how they do intellectually, how they relate to others. Those early years are critical for that.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Dana, I'm curious about how this interfaces with your day job as a surgeon. Why is this such a salient issue for you?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, I'll tell you, it is exactly because I'm a pediatric cochlear implant surgeon that I'm so in this world of the importance of human connection in the early years. So to contextualize how I got into this area, it was actually my experience in implanting children with hearing loss with a cochlear implant and then seeing huge disparities in outcomes of those patients who looked like they should both be thriving after implantation, really learning on par with their hearing peers and other same time out, barely being able to communicate. And it was that experience in seeing that that really took me on this journey of the importance of the early years, the importance of human connection, talk, and interaction for building a child's brain. Because for my own patients, it wasn't the difference in the surgery or the technology. It was the differences in how much interaction they were getting and understanding that has become my life's work, really. The power of human connection for not just building the cognitive skills, but building those human skills.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Hearing you say that, it's really easy to connect the dots. From your work as a pediatric surgeon to the important work you did popularizing 30 million words to, you know, now this work on being human raised. I've always been curious. I remember when I first heard about the finding that kids who go on to basically better lives in many ways are exposed to more words from an early age than kids who struggle. And I've always been so curious about whether that's A causal effect, or whether those are also kids who happen to have more educated parents, who might have parents with genetic advantages intellectually. And it's a selection effect as opposed to something that's actually shaping them. What do we know at this stage? Has anyone randomly assigned kids to. To be exposed to millions more words at a very early age?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

What does that do to their development? Like walk me through the science there.

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, no, so. So you're talking about the Hart and Risley study that basically followed a relatively small number, about 42 children up until the age of three. And what their research purportedly showed was that by the end of the age of three, children, especially children born into poverty, will have heard, quote, 30 million fewer words than. Than their more affluent peers. And this predicted not just test score and iq, but really their academic trajectories. In truth, there are many issues with that specific study, but I view that as really just a first sentence in a robust literature showing the power of interaction in the early years for building a child's brain. I sort of look at the way milk feeds the body, talk and interaction feeds the brain. And really understanding the neuroscience, I think gives a clearer view into it. See, when babies are born, they're born with brains just a third the size of adult brains. That's unlike any other species. They're born with like, I think 100 billion neurons, as many stars in the Milky Way. And really those early years are the time when your early experiences that talk and interaction wires up the brain. It's the instruction guide for the brain. And that is why, why early interaction is so critical for not just building language and literacy skills and those hard skills, but building those socio emotional skills that allow us to connect as humans. And I could go into attachment theory and the like, but that's really how I view it.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

That makes sense. I guess the, you know, the follow on from attachment research is if it's helpful for early developing brains to have more interaction, if it's helpful for infants and very young children to have more communication, what's the difference between having that interaction with a generative AI chatbot versus with a real person?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, I would sum it up in one word. Friction. The messy human interaction that is, you know, imperfect, that has ruptures and repairs that experience initially through good enough parenting, is how humans learn that the world is not just about them, but about sharing the space with other humans. We talk about attachment theory in Ruth Feldman's work showing babies literally have neural synchrony with their adults in their lives, where their Brains sync up and children with more secure attachment have brains that have stronger tracks in the social part of the brain, if you will. Although the whole brain is social and insecure, attachment has less integrated tracks. I then bring up this idea of artificial attachment. How does that change human development when you have, as you say, an AI chatbot that is perfectly responsive, always, always there, never missteps, never looks away. And that is the concern.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

What are the things that you're most worried about are going to get lost in the early years? Because I don't think it's going to be in the near future that 2 year olds are interfacing with ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini. I think I can imagine a farther future where there are AI enabled robots that the kids might interact with instead of parents. But if you think about the coming decade, what might AI take away from us when it comes to human connection while the brain is still developing?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, actually AI is much more in children's lives than you might imagine. So. Yeah, well, I mean it looks much more like screen time, but 40% of 2 year olds have iPads and on those iPads, that sort of AI slop that has proliferated, I call it AI misinformation. Children are being exposed to it in a significant way. So it's not quite the generative AI that we're talking about, but slowly that's going to be embedded into these screen times. But even beyond that, I mean, you go to Walmart or Target and on the shelves are these plush animals that are embedded with LLMs. They're embedded with those chatbots that we're talking about. They look more like teddy bears than actual AI agents. So they are slipping in. But to your point, my concern is that we'll sort of sleepwalk into it. It won't be like, oh, all of a sudden children are being raised by robots. It will be a slow sort of march to having some of that human presence being taken over by technology again.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Taking just a skeptics lens at some level, isn't that better than the status quo though? Wouldn't you rather have generative AI interacting actively with a toddler than them zoning out passively on another episode of Teletubbies?

[Dana Susskind]

The way I view it is this AI is this miraculous technology. We need to be thinking creatively how AI can allow more human presence to allow more human connection. So you're exactly right. I mean, parenting is hard and you can imagine an overly stretched parent turning over an iPad. I mean, certainly my kids did watch some Baby Einstein. I Must admit. But the truth is, is that if we're going to really leverage this incredible technology, why don't we leverage it in ways that take off the burden, you know, the administrative burdens or the invisible labor of parenting. Why don't we leverage it to allow more human presence rather than saying, oh well, you know, isn't a generative AI interactive robot better than an iPad? Which is how it's been sold at some times, like isn't this better than screen time? But this sounds sort of provocative, but it's sort of like saying, oh well, if you take some cigarettes you'll eat less. You know, it's like we don't need to replace one not positive child centered thing with another.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

That's very well put. So I guess, you know, one place where I would love to see value added is I think almost everything we want to get better at, we get feedback as an essential part of that process. I think about sports and music and work. Every skill you try to develop, you have other people who are more knowledgeable than you observing you and then trying to coach you. Parents get almost no feedback whatsoever. And I've started to wonder whether this might be one of the more constructive use cases of AI is like imagine that you got daily or weekly input on hey, you offered your daughter solutions and she was just looking for support again. Or you missed when your, your son started complaining that he was actually asking to play. I would love those kinds of notes as a parent and you know, often I pick up on them too late or Alison and I are both too busy parenting to notice things that, that each other could do better. Do you have any good news on this front? Do you have any hope on this front? Or is it gonna end up creating all kinds of problems and unintended consequences?

[Dana Susskind]

The truism with tech is there are always unintended consequences and that's what we need to be wary of. But at the same time, I'm a big believer in innovation and I'm a cochlear implant surgeon, so I believe in the promise of tech to allow human flourishing. But your example of like how can AI be sort of a co pilot or a backup support, I consider that a constructive potential use case of it. And so actually even in our lab at the University of Chicago, we've built a computer adaptive tool that measures what parents and teachers know about child development. Because the science is all ever evolving. It's not about substituting them as parents, but really supporting them as parents. And I think that's a really important Way to think about this technology. How can it make us better at the things that we want to be better on? How can it support us rather than replacing us?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So you're not freaked out by a future in which we would get AI supported feedback on parenting.

[Dana Susskind]

I think that can be a positive use. With that being said, you know, talking about unintended consequences, you want to make sure that it doesn't crowd out the village, that we want families to have the connections to other humans so, you know, everything, potential upsides and downsides. But at three in the morning, some of my friends probably wouldn't want me calling them to ask for advice. So, you know, wake up that LLM.

[Listener or minor contributor]

Fair.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So we all have decisions to make about what technology to give our kids access to. You say we have a parental gps. What's that about? And how do I upgrade mine?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, listen, we all have a parental GPS embedded in our DNA. Through millennia, we to understand our child better than any LLM can. LLMs can understand the world at large and has all the knowledge of the world, but they only you can really understand your child. And so as parents we have a parental gps. And I really want parents to not just rely on it, but to believe in themselves. So, you know, using experts to give us advice. Absolutely. Gaining knowledge. Absolutely. But your understanding of your child supersedes any LLM.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

It's especially true as a parent when your child is wired like you are. I've found it so much easier to make parenting decisions when, you know, I'm looking at like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm an introvert, I'm shy, like, so are two of my kids with our extroverted child. Much more challenging for me because it's just harder to put yourself in those shoes when you haven't lived that experience. And I think that it's almost like, okay, you know, I've got a parental gps, but unfortunately the map it came with is for Moldova instead of America. And so I don't know exactly where I'm supposed to turn. What do you advise doing when you discover that your GPS is not equipped with directions for the particular constellation of traits that your child has or even just the situation that your child is in that you might handle differently?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, I mean that is exactly where turning to your village and gaining advice from them and also sometimes riding the tide. I have three children who have commonalities, but oh boy, they are so different. So, you know, what do you do when you have a child that you don't totally understand? I think probably the best advice I got was from my mother. You ride the tide. You don't always have all the answers, but sometimes just listening your children will tell you exactly what they need.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I think that's great advice and makes me think a little bit that sometimes when I've remembered to do that, I feel like George Costanza and Seinfeld. If you remember the Opposite Day episode where it suddenly dawns on him that every instinct he's had in his life was wrong and so if he just does the opposite of his instincts, maybe it'll be right. And I do think that in certain situations, if you have a kid who's a polar opposite to you, asking okay, what's the reverse of my instinct?

[Adam Grant]

Is at least a different place to start.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

And if you make a mistake, at least you're making a new mistake as opposed to repeating the same old patterns of the past that you were supposed to have rethought and unlearned. What do you think of that as a strategy?

[Dana Susskind]

I love that. Although I'll tell you, one of the most liberating parts of writing this book was around this idea of good enough parenting and realizing that my mess ups, which were so many, were really my opportunity to teach my children that the world isn't perfect, that parents can love you and still not be perfect. So I love Opposite Day, but I also love I'm just trying to figure you out and I'm going to love you the best that I can and support you the best that I can. But I'm a human

[Adam Grant]

this episode is

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

brought to you by Tonal.

[Adam Grant]

When life gets busy, workouts are usually the first thing we sacrifice, but our health shouldn't be. Tonal makes it easier to stay on track. It's the ultimate strength training system that provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime, right there in your home. After a quick assessment, Tonal sets the optimal weight for every single move and adjusts in 1 pound increments as you get stronger. So you're always challenged but never overwhelmed. And here's what I love. You can choose from a variety of expert LED workouts like strength, high intensity interval training, yoga, and mobility. I've been working on mixing it up more and Tonal makes that easy. It's simple to set up and surprisingly fun to use. Right now, Tonal is offering our listeners $200 off your Tonal purchase with promo code rethinking. That's Tonal.com and use promo code rethinking for $200 off your purchase. That's Tonal.com promo code.

[Sponsor Voice]

Rethinking this episode is brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts. Summer's here, which means it's officially travel season. Road trips, last minute flights, weekend escapes. It's time to get out of our regular routine and into the world. And when you're making plans, you need somewhere reliable to land. That's Best Western. Comfortable, dependable stays that give you one less thing to think about and more time to enjoy your trip. Plus, this summer, get 1,000 bonus points and a chance to win 250,000 bonus points. So wherever you're headed, make the stay part of the journey. Life's a trip. Make the most of [e-mail] no additional purchase necessary. For sweeps, see bonus points, TNCs and sweeps rules for details and visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.

[Adam Grant]

This episode is Powered by AT and T Business there's something we often don't question until it the invisible systems that support our work. When you're building something, whether it's a business, a team, or an idea, you're constantly making trade offs about where to invest your time and energy. Imagine being hunched over a laptop in a quiet corner of the office, finally hitting your stride, only to have a spinning loading icon bring everything to a halt. It's that split second where the momentum just breaks and you're forced to stop what you're doing to troubleshoot a connection that should have just worked when you're already navigating uncertainty, complexity and competing priorities. Reliability isn't a luxury, it's a foundation. That's what makes AT and T Business a strong provider for small business owners. It's built to work so you can spend less time troubleshooting and more time focusing on the work that actually matters. Powered by AT&T Business Built to Work get today at business.att.com

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

so let's talk about hope. Because I think as an acronym, I think it's a really memorable way of capturing what we need to think about as parents. But also from a policy perspective, when I shudder at the thought of anyone in Congress legislating around AI and how to make sure that we don't make some of the same mistakes with AI that we have made with social media.

[Adam Grant]

Consistently.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Like this is the kind of framework

[Adam Grant]

that should start the conversation.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So walk me through hope.

[Dana Susskind]

Absolutely. So I'm a surgeon. I love frameworks. So what is hope? Hope is an evergreen framework that we can all use for understanding how to go forward as we navigate this age of AI and H is human connection is irreplaceable. It is not just a nice to have, it is a biologic necessity. O is owning your imperfections. You know, it's going back to that good enough parenting that we learn through our imperfections. And the productive struggle is exactly how we both learn and learn to be human. P is really protecting the early years. I think we need to be thinking really intentionally about AI throughout the life course. But as I mentioned, the early years are different. It's when we're building the hard drive of the brain and we've got to be really thoughtful about how we allow AI into those early years and then E is enhanced, not replace. I am not at all anti tech. I am a cochlear implant surgeon. I know technology can make our lives better. But if we're going to use it, let it enhance us. Let us enhance the human experience, enhance our connections, not replace us.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I love the framework. I want to talk about each of the elements a little bit more. We've touched on some of them already. I think we covered human connection being irreplaceable. Yeah, I think just to build on that a little bit, there are a lot of so called rules that new parents are given. I know we got them when we first had kids. You need a certain amount of skin to skin time with your newborn and make sure that you have X hours per day of face to face interaction. I think anybody who understands human development knows that those kinds of fixed rules are not realistic. But it is helpful to have guidelines. How do I know if I'm getting enough of that organic face to face time with an infant, with a toddler, with an adolescent. How do you think about that?

[Dana Susskind]

To your point, there's no absolute number and we don't even know.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Right.

[Dana Susskind]

Scientifically. That's why you can't create AI to replace us. Because we don't know. But as parents, we just instinctively know. Being present, being, being connected. So despite being a surgeon, I really go with the good enough parenting. Go with what feels right and knowing that your presence is what's most important. You know, I'm a working mom, I'm a surgeon. I had a whole community, a whole village helping raise my children. They did great. Other parents, some parents stay at home. There is not one way to parent. There's only one way to build that child's brain. It is loving your kids and being present.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

But there's no rigid rule, okay, owning the imperfections. Give me some examples of what that might look like and feel free to Draw on your own parenting experiences if you want.

[Dana Susskind]

Oh, you know, there are two sides of the equation, right? There's the imperfections of the input, the good enough parenting where we misstep, and then there's the other side, the productive struggle, the. The learning. So I'm going to sort of address both sides of the equation. I'm going to actually. I've talked enough about parenting. I'm going to talk about friendship formation. And John, I think you pronounce Gottsman, you know, the researcher who does a lot around marriage. He actually had early research that looked at how kids become friends and who becomes the strongest of friends. And you would think, you know, at some level, it's like people who just have strong affinities that just get along. But actually, the tightest friendships were made through that sort of friction, misstep with rupture repair and that beautiful cycle that deep friendships aren't made with perfection. They're made through imperfection and finding our connections on the friction. You know, the imperfection side of learning. We all know the MIT studies that showed that people who write essays with LLMs, they remember less because there's no friction in the writing. And the effort. It's the effort that builds the muscle. And I tell a story of John, who's my partner. He's a behavioral economist. And when he was little, and this was in the 1970s, when there was unstructured free play and before there were video games, or maybe in the beginning of video games, he had an older brother who didn't always want to play with him. So he would play football by himself in the backyard, and he would don himself in full Packer gear, and he would apparently play both sides of the team. On one side he was John Brockington, who was a Packer, and the other side, who was the Bears. And this imaginary play, if you will, the struggle of trying to figure out how to actually play this game by yourself, I show as an example of how curiosity and creativity aren't built by AI plush toys saying, oh, let's imagine X, Y and Z, where they feed you the information they think feed you creativity, but really it's an internal experience where you have to, in John's case, play both sides of the team. Of course, the packers always won, but the fact that in these experiences, it's having to deal with boredom, create your own games that you really learn, and you become the full human that we want all of our children to become, well, that.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

That's actually a great segue to protecting the early years because there are a lot of parents looking at plush toys right now, trying to figure out which ones are good for my kids, which ones are safe, which ones might be problematic. Do you have advice on how to evaluate AI products that are made for kids to love and marketed to them on TV, on YouTube ads? What should we look at?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, I want to take a step back and say, when I think about AI products, I think of them as sort of the spectrum of processes, processed foods. So, you know, on one side of the processed foods, you have whole wheat bread, which you know is healthy. You don't want to go grind your own wheat. On the other side, you've got the ultra processed foods, which are sort of like the Doritos and Twinkies, you know? And I see AI in the same way. Those AI plush toys that are for nothing more than entertainment, I view on the ultra processed food side of things. On the other hand, there are AI examples both for supporting parents in their parenting or even what Maya Matarak calls socially assistive robots that are developed for specific reasons, not just for entertainment, but for helping children with autism learn social cues or helping children learn to read. When you have tools that are used for specific developmental reasons, that's a totally different game. Just for fun, with all the things that we talked about, the impacts on attachment and learning how to socialize, I would for now steer clear of those.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I think that's probably wise advice. And then let's see, on the E front you mentioned. Well, actually, I'm going to read you to you. I thought this was profound. AI should assist the caregiver, not give the care.

[Dana Susskind]

Yes, that would be the bottom line of what I view most of AI. So much of AI that's being produced is about replacement. Replacement in the workforce, replacement in the schools. We don't want to be replaced at all. But the most important place that we don't want to be replaced is in parenting. We want technology that can support us, make it easier 1000%. But no replacement. That's a gamble.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I would not roll the dice on that one at all.

[Adam Grant]

This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler's Smart Toilet challenges that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vail Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional. It's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet is sleek with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high performance function. That's a long time to get it right, and it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler smart toilets. Find out [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire? They can change everything. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes and find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro. It's your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you. Instead of sorting through applications, you can spend your time talking to candidates and finding your next great hire. With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, LinkedIn found that its users are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire get started by posting your job for free at www.LinkedIn.com AdamGrand Terms and Conditions apply

[Sponsor Voice]

with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Okay, let's go to Lightning round. What is the worst parenting advice that you see given regularly?

[Dana Susskind]

That you have to be a perfect parent and the stakes are high with every single action that you give.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

And your best advice for parents?

[Dana Susskind]

The advice that I got from my mom that no action is that big of a deal and sometimes you just have to ride the tide. It'll be okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

You're putting together a dream dinner party of people whose parenting you would love to observe and learn from throughout history. Who would you invite or whose parents would you invite?

[Dana Susskind]

I was thinking whose parents that I want to invite? I would like to meet Geoffrey Hinton's parents. I would like to meet Ada Lovelace's parents. I would love to meet Martin Luther King's parents. I would love to meet Adam Grant's parents.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

That one can be arranged.

[Adam Grant]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

What is something you've changed your mind

[Adam Grant]

about recently as a surgeon?

[Dana Susskind]

As a surgeon or as a physician?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Oh, either is fair game, actually.

[Dana Susskind]

Okay. The fact that AI can actually allow for greater human presence, I think I first saw in the clinic. I don't know if you know much about ambient AI, but ambient AI used in the clinic has given back physicians presence with their patients. So in the old days, we'd go into the clinic, and we would be so focused on our computers, filling out the electronic medical records. And now with ambient AI, it does it all in the background so I can be completely connected with my patients. So that is a really constructive, powerful example of the use of AI.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So you're saying you don't have to take notes because you have an AI tool listening and capturing?

[Dana Susskind]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Does that raise privacy concerns? Do I want to be recorded when I'm meeting with a physician?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, I mean, that's a really important question. And I, you know, going back to the idea of unintended consequences, I was talking to someone who brought up the point of patients if they're undocumented and being afraid of that. And that completely makes sense, so that's something to be considered. With that being said, it has changed the game and allowed much more human presence by physicians.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Sounds right. Okay, I'll take it. Yeah, I think it's probably, in most situations, a net positive.

[Dana Susskind]

Yes. Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Adam Grant]

Office hours, time.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

What is a question you have for me?

[Dana Susskind]

Ah, I've been waiting for this. So even though early childhood is incredibly important, we have consistently failed to sort of invest in other people's children. And I think part of it may be biological, how we're wired to invest in our own children and tribe. And you've spent your career trying to understand what moves people, how we shift motivation. So my question is, can we actually help people widen this circle? You know, love all children as your own? Is that even a potential. Or should I stop trying this approach and maybe design a system that works around their evolutionary defaults?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Oh, it's such a. It's such an important and complicated question. My first reaction, Dana, is that it's noble and also unrealistic and maybe not even desirable, because if everybody loved everyone's children equally, everyone would neglect their own children. We'd all be busy caring a little bit Bit for every child and not enough for any of them. Yeah, I don't think children were meant to be fully raised by villages. Right. I think it's good to have a village supporting, but I think primary caregivers are really important. So we actually do need some selectivity, I guess is what I'm saying. Right. You want differential care and attachment.

[Dana Susskind]

That's a good point. But how do we get them to. So we invest a little bit more in others or.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Yeah, no, I think that's where we want to go. And I think most people have trouble with the kind of scale you're describing. And so I think we need to bound it and say, who are the children that are closest to you that aren't yours, that could benefit from a little bit of extra care? Who are the children in your neighborhood, in your community that might be falling through the cracks? I think that that conversation is much more palatable in the same way that people might adopt a pet if they saw the opportunity locally, but they're not necessarily crusading or campaigning for animal rights. Yeah, I think expanding the circle of concern, as Carl Weich would have said, with small wins is probably the easiest way to begin. And I think, you know, I think one of the ways that I've gotten through with this message a little bit is to just remind people, look, there are certain things you cannot do as a parent.

[Listener or minor contributor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

For your own children because they consider you too biased or lacking credibility. Like I think every parent learns at some point. Usually by the time our kids are teenagers. Oh. The best thing we can do is help them find a great mentor who will deliver a version of the message that we would hope they would hear from someone that they think is better suited to share it with them. And I think if you recognize that your own kids need that kind of support that you can't provide, you also realize you are in a position to provide it. And I would hope that would be a two way street. That's my first reaction. What do you make of all that?

[Dana Susskind]

No, I like that. Support our children, expand our circle a bit. If we all did that, then we'd have good coverage. So I love that. And then may I ask one other question? These are real questions that I'm curious about your thought. So we're seeing an uptick in sort of the public resistance to AI, the booing at commencements. And I'm curious if you think, are these driven by like political ideology, I don't know, economic concern, or is it something deeper? I don't know, a Deep fear of replacement? Or is it a combination of all of it?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I've been wondering about that, too, and I don't have any easy answers to it. But, Dana, I have to tell you, I was surprised when I first saw a couple commencement speeches get booed where the speakers were basically trying to say, AI is coming. Here's how to think about preparing yourself for it. And I've watched my students use AI to the point that I'm afraid they're

[Adam Grant]

not thinking for themselves.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Like, wait, you're booing the very thing

[Adam Grant]

that you are adopting.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

What is going on here? I'm trying to get you to not use it in your writing, to engage in more critical thinking and more independent creativity. And what is going on here? And I think I've actually asked a bunch of students what's behind this, and the most common answer I've gotten, and I think we need more systematic research to get to the bottom of this. But anecdotally, the most common response has been, well, we're booing the generation that built it and dumped it on us and doesn't have any plans for how we're going to subsist. And most of it seems to be driven by, with a graduating class, fear of, am I going to be employable?

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Am I going to be able to

[Adam Grant]

support myself and my family?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

And so I think it's, you know, it's a combination of psychological and economic and political reactions. What do you think?

[Dana Susskind]

Yeah, I mean, I've thought a lot about it. I think you're right. It's probably not one answer. But I've thought about also this idea of erasure, that our identity is, whether it be, do we have a job? Do we have a partner? Are we parents anymore? Like, our identity as humans and what it means to be human is sort of this larger existential. In the book, I told this story where this big tech executive said, oh, you know, we're going to replace your mom. And then also this little girl, when she was shown this robot, she said, oh, are my parents going to love it more than me? Something to that effect? And I thought, you know, are we. What does it mean to be human? And maybe, like, could the fact that we've created this incredible technology that is, you know, built in our image, but clearly not us, be sort of the coming together of like, oh, now we see what brings us together, you know, the response to the other.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I think your observation about erasure is really powerful. And I think the idea that not only might I struggle to find a job But I don't even matter as a person. Like my identity is being replaced in addition to my social value. That's a scary thought. And I think it's easy to scapegoat a speaker who's representing a generation or an industry that has driven some of this technological change. I think the fear though is real and I don't think any of the so called experts have given useful responses. But. But I think it, if anything, I think the silver lining is it has forced some of the tech overlords and AI pioneers to sit down and really start thinking systematically about what are we going to do to preserve work, what are we going to do to preserve opportunity? How are we going to make sure that the tools we're building because we say they're going to exist anyway and so we're trying to build them better. How are we going to do that in a way that serves society, not just technology or not just us?

[Dana Susskind]

We will see in these next few years. But I'm hopeful that parents, because of their drive to protect their young, will be the guardians at the gate. I hope.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I hope so too. And I think Human Ray is going to help all of us do it and do it better. So thank you for writing it. I think it's such a moving and also practical book about how we can maintain our humanity in the age of AI, which I think should be our, if not our central concern, one of our top priorities.

[Dana Susskind]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Thank you.

[Adam Grant]

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash. Ben Ben Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Layton Brown.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Did you watch the movie Her?

[Dana Susskind]

Absolutely, yeah. Felt like a distant. It didn't even feel like a future. It felt like pure science fiction. Obviously, now it feels different.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

It does feel different. I remember watching it and thinking, who would ever do that? And here we are.

[Dana Susskind]

It is wild.

[Sponsor Voice]

This episode is sponsored by Toyota. Independence is one of those words that sounds simple, but when you really think about it, it's deeply personal. For some people it's about freedom. For others it's about flexibility or just having options that actually fit your life. That idea shows up in interesting ways in the tools we choose. Especially now as more people think about switching to electric vehicles. Toyota's approach is to give people real choice with their new all electric family, the bz, the BZ Woodland and the C hr. Each vehicle is designed a little differently for different kinds of lives. So whether independence means getting through your day more efficiently or having the freedom to explore what's next, it's about finding something that works for you. Learn [e-mail] the new all electric family Toyota let's go places.

Hey Yetis, this is Nick and Jack from the Best One yet podcast. Now, the last company we worked at, they used Paylocity and everything just worked. It wasn't until launching our own media business this show that we realized how rare that is. Because Paylocity is one delicious burrito of operational needs. They roll up HR finance and it seamlessly into one delicious bite. When everything wraps together like that, all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business. You don't need more tools. You don't even need cilantro. You need one Sol and that is why Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR finance and IT with AI driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next. Or as we call it, a delicious operational burrito. Yes we do experience a one place for all your HCM needs besties. So start now at paylocity.com 1paylocity.com O

N E With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC

this summer there are 250 reasons to join T Mobile girls.

Trip booked and switching to T Mobile

help make it happen with experience beyond switch and get $100 back plus $650 in value in built in plan benefits. That's $750 in your first year guaranteed.

And honestly that hundred dollars back, I'm putting it towards the zipline now.

That's how you do summer.

Exactly. Best sweet I ever made.

This is just one reason to join T Mobile this summer. There are 250 reasons. Find yours

[Listener or minor contributor]

savings based on the value of benefits included with experience beyond like entertainment and one year of AAA Classic and DashPass on us. Benefits may require activation CPlan. For details, get $100 via virtual prepaid MasterCard with eligible ported no cash access and expires in six months. Issued by Sunrise Banks and a member FDIC. Allow eight weeks.