Tremaine Lee (3:29)

Yeah, man, More than that. When I first turned those, that 90000 word manuscript in, it was really super rough. The book it is today is honestly about 25% of what it was into what it became. Initially I was always going to hold the reader's hand a little bit and speak to my own experiences. My grandfather's murder in 1976 is this massive space in my life. It occupies a massive space in my family's life two years before I was born. Growing up seeing my family's portraits of better days and people talking about his voice and his sense of humor and just how he moved through the world. I always knew that part. And so part of the storytelling was even your friendly neighborhood journalist who you've come to know telling these stories has been touched by this thing. And here's what it cost my family. What I had less of an understanding of was that my grandfather's was not the first murder in our family. Going back to the rural South Jim Crow, Georgia in the early 1920s to discover that my grandmother, who was a baby at the time, had a 12 year old brother who was shot and killed in a sundowntown where the men came together and this is documented in the newspaper, came together in Fitzgerald, Georgia to outlaw black labor and black voting in this community in the late 1800s. That spark my family's journey into the migration to Philadelphia first and then South Jersey, only to have a second of my grandmother's brothers shot and killed by a state trooper. And to for the first time look at those headlines where it says Trooper's gun kills youth. As if this gun just hopped up and shot a black teenager right under these weird circumstances. And then 20 plus years later, my grandfather's murder, a prospective tenant, they owned an apartment in Camden, New Jersey and we're going to rent it to a guy. He disappeared after leaving a deposit, won his money back. My grandfather said no, I'll see you in court. He came back and murdered my grandfather. Twenty years after that, my stepbrother shot and killed in Camden. A girl put a bullet in the back of his head. In the early 2000s, another cousin killed in Atlantic City. So the psychic residue of what's been passed down and me grappling with telling these stories that black families across the country experience in terms of the violence of police in the System and the violence of the community and the systemic violence, again, that binds us all, wraps us all up. This became so much more personal. And as you know, for a long time, I was trying to be somewhat arm's length, even though I was very close to telling these stories. Now it was time to drop all of that and speak honestly about what I now know to be crushing down on me, which is the weight of this family history.

Al Letson (6:16)

Yeah. As you were talking about it, it just made me think about my own family history and think, like, our stories are so similar. My great grandfather, the reason why my family ended up in New Jersey is because something happened to him in the south. And there are no records of it, but family lore is that he was lynched. I don't have anything to prove that, but the family lore is that he was lynched, and then that moved my family to New Jersey, and then all sorts of violent incidences happen there as well. And it just kind of seeps into you. And, you know, the funny thing for me is that, like, I had no idea about any of that until I started reporting on a story. And I thought, like, let me look into my genealogy and just think about, like. And when I saw it all, I was like, wow. I am like, I am reporting on the story of my family and didn't even know it.

Tremaine Lee (7:11)

Time and again, time and again.

Al Letson (7:13)

Time and again. Like, you find yourself in these horrible stories, sad stories about people that look like you, and then you find out they are you. You know, it's like. And it's like, heavy weight to carry. At Reveal, we worked on this series called Mississippi Goddamn. And oof. I get choked up when I talk about it. I remember, oh, God, man, I'm so sorry. I'm getting choked up. I remember feeling like it was gonna kill me. My blood pressure was ridiculous. Like, I would check my blood pressure in the morning, and I thought to myself, like, it was. It was like, literally the blood pressure thing would tell me to go. To go to the hospital because it was that high, but I couldn't stop because I had to. I had to turn in this story. I had to turn in this story. And I felt like I. And I did. I don't think this was wrong, but I felt like I owed this family and I owed the young man that I was telling the story about. Like, I had to finish it. But also, when I look back, I owe my children to be around if I can, and. But I couldn't see it then. You know, I just was like, of course not. You Gotta get through this thing. Oof. Man, I'm so sorry. Not much, man. Every. Every time I sat down at that computer or to write these episodes and listening to this tape and looking at autopsy reports and all of that type of stuff, and graphic photos of this young man's death, I felt like I had to keep doing it. And the more I did it, the higher my blood pressure went, the more I thought I literally would think I'm going to stroke out. But I. But I don't have a choice. I have to finish this. I have to finish this. And, you know, I mean, just to be honest, like, Reveal, especially at that time, was a very. You know, most of the people in that workplace were white. And I had worked so hard and championed this story for so long that, like, I was finally getting a shot and I knew I couldn't drop it. And just the. The amount of pressure and time it took. And then afterwards, I realized, like, bro, you acting crazy. So I went to a therapist and got into therapy, and I took, like, three months off from Reveal. Like, I just couldn't do it. Cause I thought it was gonna kill me. And I think by the grace of God, it didn't. But carrying that.

Tremaine Lee (9:50)

Oh, my God, bro, that same feeling. And again, I feel like I'm looking into a mirror and I'm hearing the echo. I'm hearing an echo bounce from me to you and back to me. Those early days especially. There is nothing like arriving at a crime scene. Right. And seeing someone that looks just like you dressed just like you. Got some Air Force ones fresh just like you.

Al Letson (10:13)

Yep. Yep.

Tremaine Lee (10:14)

With their brain matter splattered across the pavement.

Al Letson (10:18)

Yeah.

Tremaine Lee (10:19)

And the family. And that look in a mother's eyes.

Al Letson (10:23)

Yeah.

Tremaine Lee (10:23)

That could be your mother. There's zero things in this universe like that pain.

Al Letson (10:29)

Yeah.

Tremaine Lee (10:29)

And that we are the burden bearers of that. And we have to be. And we have always had to be. Ida B. Wells did not like this season either.

Al Letson (10:38)

Yeah.

Tremaine Lee (10:39)

Her blood pressure was probably through the.

Al Letson (10:41)

Absolutely.

Tremaine Lee (10:42)

But it's a reminder that we cannot report our way out of the pain. We cannot educate our way out of the pain. We cannot drink our way out of the pain.

Al Letson (10:53)

No.

Tremaine Lee (10:53)

When you're a young man, you can't run around and have sex. You can't sex it away. We have to engage with it. And until we have those conversations about what it means to carry that weight. When you have to carry the weight. Because no one else will. And no one will care when we die of a heart attack. Because it happens every single day.

Al Letson (11:12)

Yeah, right. No, absolutely.

Tremaine Lee (11:16)

What you got me doing here, bro?

Al Letson (11:20)

This is probably what we need, though.

Tremaine Lee (11:21)

This is probably what we need.

Al Letson (11:22)

Not anymore. Listen, I'm just mirroring you, bro. Cause I'm sitting here talking to you with tears in my eyes, trying to be like, brother, calm down. Like, what are you doing, Mr. Letson? So to go back to trauma.

Tremaine Lee (11:39)

Let's do more.

Al Letson (11:40)

Yeah, let's do more. One of the things in your book that I think about a lot, and again, I'm giving so much personal information here. So. My oldest son, I had no idea he was born. I didn't find out about him until he was five years old. And he lived all the way across the country. We had no communication or contact until I found out when he was 5. And I was 23. So I was 23. I was a kid. When I flew out to get him, I was, like, taking him home, back to Florida, and I didn't know what to expect. I'd seen his picture. This was long before the days when we had video calls. So I talked to him on the phone a little bit. Back then, my thing was with him. When I found out about him, I started writing postcards and sending them because he was a kid, and getting mail's a big thing, and I was a flight attendant, so I'd be in different places and send him stuff. Anyway, I. I go to get my kid, first time meeting him in person. And the thing that tripped me out is that he was so much like me at that age. Like, I mean, things that he would say were things that I said. Like, really specific things. Like, you know, I'm a little bit older than you, but when I was young, we had this saying. I think it went something like, up your nose with a rubber hose or something like that, right? And I remember, like, the first time I'm meeting my kid, he's like, your nose with a. And I was like, what? Then I brought him home to my mother, and my mother, who likes him more than me, was like, this is you as a kid. Like, he was so much like me. I tell that story to just say that. Like, I believe that DNA is way more powerful than we. Than we talk about that. I believe that, like, our family's history is encoded in our DNA, and we carry both the good, but also the trauma. And you can't get away from it. It is in you. It is in your blood. It is in your bones. It is who you are. And I think especially for black folks in this country whose ancestors have experienced a crazy Amount of trauma, you carry it with you every day. And so when you talk about going into your grandparents home and being at the spot where, you know, your grandfather died. Can you talk to me about that?

Tremaine Lee (14:07)

Yeah, man. That there's, there's the ways that these moments reshape the way we raise our children and the way we move through the world, how we teach them to survive in America and teach them to carry a bit of this trauma. That's one thing in a practical way. Right. This moment changes everything. There's this emotional. The emotional pain that we experience. You think about those epigenetics and that post traumatic slave disorder that we've arrived at that moment after a long series of these cuts and slices. And there's one part of the book that I had to shrink down for the sake of the story, but it's the guns for slave cycle and a psychic connection to the violence and the pain. Not just a genetic one too.

Al Letson (14:52)

Right, right.

Tremaine Lee (14:53)

But there's this other one, this ethereal psychic trauma that we carry from being bartered for guns. And that Europeans plied these regional African powers with guns, and some would only trade in guns for enslaved people to create war and instability. So this idea that we were forced out of Mother Africa with a Muslim, a gun at our back, and then we arrive at the hell of the Western world and experience all this other violence and trauma that we then pass down for five, six, seven, eight generations. To arrive on the south side of Chicago, to arrive in Camden, New Jersey, to arrive in West Berlin, New Jersey, where my grandfather was killed, stand in that spot, and then read in the newspaper about how the blood was smeared on my grandmother's nightgown and what it means and how, how do we disrupt that? Is there any disrupting that? I think acknowledging it, that it exists. Right. And this is not some sort of fantasy of our hoodoo voodoo imaginations.

Al Letson (15:48)

Right.

Tremaine Lee (15:48)

That we're carrying that. But. But I think it's something that we have to. We have to acknowledge because it's there and we know it's there. We know it's there. And I just don't know how we reconcile that.

Al Letson (15:59)

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. Is that the key is talking about it. Cause America will convince you it is not there. We are, I wouldn't say the beginning, but maybe America has always been in the process of the great forgetting. Like America loves this idea of collective amnesia that it continually pushes on people. And so if you're pushing the collective amnesia, like we're not engaging with all the things you just talked about about. And if you don't engage with it, it just gets bigger and it begins to guide your steps in the future. Because you don't know it's there, so you have to talk about it.

Tremaine Lee (16:39)

That's right. You know, one of my guiding. And this is a guiding principle for my journalism, but also for this book in particular, because this is not a very prescriptive book. This is not a policy book. This is about how we've been shaped in our experience with the violence. But it's that ain't nothing wrong with us. Ain't nothing wrong with us. If you want to understand what's wrong with us, let's look at this machinery around us, Right? Right. Let's look at what we've carried in us, what was sparked by this white supremacist violence and a society bent on our breaking. That's what's wrong with us. And so even though the gun is certainly the vehicle and that kind of violence is the vehicle, for me, it's like this is how we arrived at this moment. Right. This is how we got here. But ultimately, there is nothing wrong with us. Right. Except for how we've experienced this country.

Al Letson (17:27)

Coming up, Tremaine says there is healing to be found in facing down some.

Tremaine Lee (17:32)

Painful realities, confronting the violence, the silent, quiet violence from within and as men in particular. But in general, finding the strength and courage to face that down and live freely and live happily and find peace. That's why this matters, because it hurts so bad.

Al Letson (17:53)

But before we get to that, we have been bringing you more to the story for six months now, and I just want to thank you for coming along on this ride with me. Getting to bring you all these kinds of conversations has just really meant the world to me. We are building a community of people who care about the world we live in, and we need to grow. So come on, please invite your friends to take a listen. Give us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app. Share it on your social media posts. All the things. You know what it is. Because what we are trying to build is powerful and these type of conversations are needed now more than ever. All right, back to me and Tremaine in just a moment. Hello, listener. My name is Najeeb Momini and I am a producer here at Reveal. Reveal is a nonprofit news organization and we depend on support from our listeners. Listeners like you. Donate today@revealnews.org donate. It helps fund the stories that we tell and helps me feed my cat. So thank you. This is more to the story. I'm Al Letson. Journalist. Tremaine Lee and I are going deep today talking about what it means to be black in America and the weight of. Of being a journalist bearing witness to the violence that has surrounded black families for generations. So this country is moving. I wouldn't say, I've heard people say that this is unprecedented, what we're seeing right now. I would say that, like, we saw all this at the end of reconstruction and this is a rerun of reconstruction. Just the writers of America season five are pretty bad.

Tremaine Lee (19:52)

Season five, they really jumping the shark, man.

Al Letson (19:53)

This is crazy. This is like, what are you doing? We need new characters. But as we are living in this time period and given all that you have reported on and gone through personally, where's your work gonna take you now that we're here?

Tremaine Lee (20:13)

Now that we're here? You know, I've been having these conversations a lot lately with black men in particular, but black people in general, not unlike those, you know, post reconstruction days when the nadir or the nader. I'm from New Jersey. I say nadir, I might be wrong. Sound right to me. But. But beating back our efforts at nation building and institution building and finding for the first time some fullness, some fullness of what it means to be an American and solidify this conditional citizenship that we've had, I think now is the time that we build and collaborate and double down on telling our stories and telling the truth. And so for me, I think this book is an important bridge for me. For more than 20 years, I've been a journalist in the newsroom, in print, in digital, in broadcast, in podcasting. Now I have my first film coming out on the anniversary of Katrina on Peacock. I have the book coming out. I want to expand ways in which we speak to the black American experience. And this is not new or novel, but I think now is the time to continue to build in that catalog. Because what's going to happen is as they continue to try to erase us and erase our story in 100 years, when they're on the fourth nadir, when they're on the fourth burning down of any kind of reconstructive efforts, they have to understand that this is not unprecedented, that this is precedented, that this is the default position and this is how you survive it. This is how you survive it, is to look at Square's face and tell the truth as they are renaming military bases after these fake Robert Elite they're so bent on making sure they honor.

Al Letson (21:57)

It's so ridiculous.

Tremaine Lee (21:58)

The Heroes of.

Al Letson (21:59)

Can we just talk about the ridiculous?

Tremaine Lee (22:01)

That's Robert Jenkins.

Al Letson (22:03)

Exactly.

Tremaine Lee (22:04)

Think about this. We've been around long enough. We are just now comfortable enough to say white supremacist system, White supremacy.

Al Letson (22:11)

Oh, my God.

Tremaine Lee (22:11)

We couldn't say that.

Al Letson (22:12)

No.

Tremaine Lee (22:13)

We're just there.

Al Letson (22:14)

It's just that, like America's understanding of what it means to be black and how we see the world and experience the world, we haven't caught up. And journalism absolutely hasn't caught up.

Tremaine Lee (22:28)

Even among our friends and friends of the truth, there is an acceptable level of anti blackness in this country that is okay.

Al Letson (22:35)

It's okay.

Tremaine Lee (22:35)

Even among people who wish it would be different. But we've accepted it. It's part of what this is. Right. And so that's why you have to have an argument about whether the founders of this country, these transnational human traffickers, are white supremacists or not.

Al Letson (22:51)

But the idea that my ancestors lives didn't matter. One of the things that our friend Nicole Hannah Jones talks about a lot is that you can't have this history and it matter. Suddenly this history doesn't matter. Like it just. It. It doesn't make sense.

Tremaine Lee (23:10)

That's right.

Al Letson (23:10)

It doesn't make sense. You got to own the whole thing, America. You just gotta own it.

Tremaine Lee (23:14)

That's right. You can't. Our friend Ta Nehisi Coates. You can't have the credits without the debits.

Al Letson (23:19)

Exactly.

Tremaine Lee (23:19)

It has to be both. But also the idea that our existence and experience is kind of inconsequential.

Al Letson (23:26)

Right.

Tremaine Lee (23:26)

When we are foundational in all of the ways we were. The economy.

Al Letson (23:30)

Absolutely.

Tremaine Lee (23:31)

Where our flesh.

Al Letson (23:33)

Exactly.

Tremaine Lee (23:33)

And the fact that we're still fighting to tell these stories. And you'd imagine a great nation would say, look how far we've come. And when we could do the right thing. We did. Certainly this founding was A, B, C or D. But we are such a great nation where. Look at the strides. The strides were made through bloodshed.

Al Letson (23:51)

Absolutely.

Tremaine Lee (23:51)

Sacrifice.

Al Letson (23:52)

Absolutely.

Tremaine Lee (23:53)

Come on. The truth is, we know. It's so dangerous, though, because the idea that, especially with black people, this idea of liberation, but that America itself will be freed, finally freed. That's a very dangerous proposition for those who don't believe in our equality or humanity.

Al Letson (24:08)

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Tremaine, is there anything that you wanted to hit on the book before I let you go?

Tremaine Lee (24:17)

I don't think so. Just that this truly is my life's work. I have joked that this book almost killed me, which it did. But it truly is my life's work. And it finally became what it was supposed, supposed to be. And I hope people not only find an understanding about how guns have shaped us and the industry that profits while there's so much pain here, but that there is a healing and power and strength in facing down the hardest parts of what we harbor within. Right, confronting the violence, the silent, quiet violence from within and as men in particular. But in general, finding the strength and courage to face that down and live freely and live happily and find peace. That's why this matters, because it hurts so bad what we've experienced, what we've carried in our genes, the psychic residue of the violence that we've experienced, the systemic violence and the actual violence, what it means to finally find peace within that. That, to me, I hope, is the great strength and power of this book. And I hope it finds the audience that it deserves.

Al Letson (25:22)

Tremaine Lee is the author of A Thousand Ways to the True Cost of Violence on Black Life in America. Tremaine Man, I feel like we just did a therapy session with each other.

Tremaine Lee (25:32)

We laughed, we cried, brother. We confronted all the things. This is an honor, man. Thank you.

Al Letson (25:37)

Thank you, man. Good to talk to you.

Tremaine Lee (25:38)

Likewise.

Al Letson (25:42)

That was journalist Tremaine Lee. His book A Thousand Ways to the True Cost of Violence on Black Life in America is available now. We have a link to it in our show notes. So you heard me talk about it, but I would love for you to listen to the Reveal series, Mississippi Goddamn. Not only did it win a ton of awards, but I poured my heart and soul into this project with an amazing team. It's the kind of reporting that can only happen with your support. That's right. We are listener supported. That means listeners like you, you can help us thrive by making a gift today. Just go to revealnews.org gift again, that's revealnews.org gift and thank you. This episode was produced by Josh sanburn and Carl McGurk. Allison. Brett Myers edited the show theme music and engineering helped by Fernando, my man, yo Arruda and Jay Breezy. Mr. Jim Briggs, I'm Al Letson. And you know, let's do this next week and why don't you bring some friends with you. This is more to the story from prx.