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- [00:03]
Al Letson
Why do you think this is one of the first moves from the Trump administration to get rid of the inspectors general?
- [00:09]
Larry Turner
I think it's intentional. It was a power play. It was a power purge to get rid of the people, the watchdogs that actually provide oversight. And as you saw, we were the first group for that to happen to. And then since that time two months ago, now you begin to see you saw a lot of other watchdogs in other different areas of the government. So that is why it appeared that this was an intent to remove any oversight.
- [00:33]
Al Letson
On this week's more to the story, I talk with Larry Turner, the former inspector general for the US Department of Labor. He was one of more than a dozen IGs across the government who was fired by President Trump. What that was like and what losing inspectors general means for the country. Coming up foreign.
- [00:59]
Progressive Insurance
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- [01:29]
Al Letson
This is more to the story. I'm Al Letson. One of the first moves President Trump made when he came into office was to get rid of a key layer of oversight within the federal government that most of us might not even know is there. Inspectors general. For the last 50 years, IGs have been crucial in unearthing and publicizing fraud, waste and abuse happening within government agencies. But now career officials who've been doing this kind of work for years are gone. One of them is Larry Turner, who until recently was inspector general for the Labor Department. Before that, he held similar positions at the Defense Department and the Army. This is his first extended interview since losing his job.
- [02:18]
Interviewer
Larry, thanks so much for coming in and talk to me.
- [02:20]
Larry Turner
Good morning. Thanks for having me.
- [02:22]
Al Letson
So let's start by going back to the election. When you saw Donald Trump would be the next president, did you worry that.
- [02:28]
Interviewer
He might target the office of Inspector General, your office at the Labor Department?
- [02:33]
Larry Turner
Well, we were a little worried. Not only Labor OIG, but a lot of the IGs were a little concerned because we knew that there was a possibility. Also, the last time when he became president, he tried to fire IGs. Then the first weekend I think he was in office, he sent out a notice to igs to tender their resignation. The igs fought that hard over the weekend, and when Monday arrived, they just chopped off because there was a lot of pushback, and so therefore, they backed off. And then through his administration, he had fired five IGs in a matter of a month. When they went through that period where they fired like five IGs, they. There was concern that he would fire others. Matter of fact, I was the acting IG at the time, and I had the then Secretary Scalia and his deputy, they reached out to me, they said, hey, you know, we see that the president. I know you're probably aware of the president as firing IGs. We haven't been called by him yet, but we just wanted to see if you were interested in having the permanent position, because we think that you're doing a great job, and we think that you're fair. And this is Republican Secretary of Labor. So I felt good that they respected the job that I was doing. So this time come around. We knew that that possibility was out there at labor oig. We thought we were in a good position because our work has been lauded by all of our stakeholders, to include Congress, to include the White House. So that's why I thought we were really in a pretty good position.
- [03:56]
Interviewer
So everything is moving in the right direction as far as you're concerned as leading this organization, and then the rug gets pulled out from under you.
- [04:04]
Larry Turner
Yeah.
- [04:04]
Interviewer
How did it affect not just you, but your staff that worked for you?
- [04:09]
Larry Turner
Devastating. My folks have been going through this, and to have them treated this way, I am just shocked and saddened. So the night that I got that termination notice, initially I thought maybe it was just me or one or two others that had been appointed by Biden. But then to find out it was like 19 others was just shocking. And it let me know that it was more than just about who appointed me, because some of those guys had been appointed by Trump himself. And it was surprising because the note that we received one Friday night received an email basically saying that we were terminated, it said, because the administration had changing priorities. And so, you know, we kind of thought it was kind of odd that they would say changing priorities, and then you would have Elon Musk come by and start looking for cuts when it comes to fraud, waste, and abuse, because that was kind of the opposite of what we were told. And, you know, and that's really our calling, you know, fraud, waste, and abuse. To find that throughout the government. So to have him doing that is just kind of. Is a little different. Also to have in the time period that it took for them to come up with some of the kind of fraud, waste, and abuse, I just find that it Just doesn't really make much sense to me that you could find that kind of fraud in a matter of four or five days, because it takes us about a year or so if we're really investigating the program.
- [05:30]
Al Letson
I mean, just to put a little bit of a finer point on it, over the years, both parties have fired or changed out inspectors general. But this feels different. From your perspective, how is this different from what other administrations have done over the years?
- [05:48]
Larry Turner
Okay, good question. So here's part of the problem. Congress decided, hey, you know what, we need to beef this up a little bit. So we're going to put a requirement in there for give them Congress a 30 day notice. If you want to get rid of an IG, and you've got to give us specific reasons like dereliction of duty or some kind of criminal fraud or intent that was committed, and that's the reason you're getting rid of them. And here's the other part with that. To get rid of an ig, you know, one reason that we've stayed through administrations is because IGs need that independence to do their job. So, for instance, if I was going to write a bad report, I'm able to write it knowing that it's not going to cost me my job. So what has happened now? They've removed all the IGs. It's a chilling effect to know that I could write a negative report and then what would happen is I put my job at risk and then I don't know if the IGs will ever be the same again. Because now that what they are doing, is another administration going to feel this need to hire somebody of my party to sit in as the ig, knowing that they're going to only just, they're not going to really write anything negative about me, about my organization.
- [07:00]
Al Letson
Why do you think this was one of the first moves from the Trump administration to get rid of the inspectors general?
- [07:06]
Larry Turner
I think it's intentional. It was a power play. It was a power purge to get rid of the people, the watchdogs that actually provide oversight. And as you saw, we were the first group for that to happen to. And then since that time two months ago, now you begin to see, you saw a lot of other watchdogs and other different areas of the government. So it was a strategic plan to get rid of that. And it allows, like for instance, some of the things that you see going on in the government right now with, you know, even with Musk and some of the things he's doing would be considered a conflict of interest. And some of the IGs will be taking a look at that to see if it was legal. So there's no doubt in mind it was intentional. I think had it been like, one or two IGs, fire and there'd have been reasonable cause for that, it would have been more understanding. But when you go after. Let me just tell you, these IGs that they went after were the best of the best. If you were going to put together All Star team or a dream team, these are the group of IGs, because they are IGs for the biggest agencies in the government and more powerful agencies than the government. So that is why it appeared that this was an intent to remove any oversight. We are really the eyes and the ears for the American public. I think a better way to look at it is if you were having a home built, you would have the builder who would, for instance, take a look at all the different things from material to codes, and then he would build your home. Okay, so. But of course, the builder may cut corners. And so what the IG does is really, we're like independent inspectors. And what we make sure is that they are building to code and they are building like you expect it to be when you sign the contract.
- [08:42]
Interviewer
How did you end up becoming an inspector general? Like, what was it that, like, I mean, I didn't even know it was a career track that you could get on.
- [08:48]
Larry Turner
Well, that makes two of us. You know, initially, I started out as a army officer. Logistics, quartermaster Corps. Did 24 years in the army. And when I came back to school, they were starting a new position at the Army Installation Management Command in the Inspector General's office. And so they needed a deputy. And with my background in the army as far as conducting investigations and. And just a guy that could read regulations and follow laws and directives. They thought I would be a good fit and asked me if I was interested in it. And that kind of started my career, as in the inspector general field.
- [09:23]
Interviewer
So can you give me a little bit of a sense of the scope of your job at the Labor Department? How many people worked for you? How big was your budget, that kind of thing.
- [09:31]
Larry Turner
So our budget was about $100 million a year. About 350 people work. At one point during the pandemic, we was up to about 400. You know, five years ago, when the pandemic hit, we were one of the more active OIGs. I mean, we really had our work cut out for us, because in addition to our $100 million budget, Congress actually authorized another $38.5 million for us to provide oversight of unemployment insurance fraud funding. During COVID the government was providing benefits. The states were actually administering benefits for people that lost their jobs. And so there was some small businesses, like whether it be Lyft drivers, Uber drivers, that file for claims. And some of those people were false, filing fraudulent claims. But the bigger problem came when there were people that were stealing people's personal identification, like your Social Security number. We identified $47 billion that was stolen using personal identification numbers. And they were in four categories that our data analysts provided. It was from deceased individuals, federal prisoners, multi claims, and suspicious emails. So I had went to my staff and said, hey guys, this is our chance. Because we're like the 12th largest OIG, but we were really understaffed and we had to really build our staff up to handle this new mission. And so I challenged my team that, hey, you know, this is emergency that's going on across the world and we need everybody to step up. We need all hands on deck. And they knocked it out apart. And so that's what really bothers me about all of this. All the great work that they've done. And they've been operating on funerals because we've been in a hiring freeze for the last two years.
- [11:11]
Interviewer
Right. Would it be fair to say that where we are right now, with President Trump and Elon Musk coming in saying that they are going after waste and they are looking at government spending, would it be fair to say that what they said say that they want to do is exactly what the Office of the Inspectors General is supposed to be doing?
- [11:36]
Larry Turner
That's correct. Matter of fact, that's why a lot of us IGs and even the OIG community were surprised that they didn't take advantage of an asset that was already in place.
- [11:46]
Interviewer
One of the things that really stands out to me is that the conversation around what the President and what Elon Musk is doing is they keep talking about waste and they talk about firing people. Basically, these people are a waste of time and they have wasted our taxpayer money, which I think you can argue about that, but I think what you can't argue about is that these are human beings, these are people with families. These are people who contribute to our economy and the impact that that has not just on that family unit, but, but on us as a society. I think that the damage that we're seeing cannot be understated as far as, like, what it means to people individually, but what it means to us as a country on a whole.
- [12:37]
Larry Turner
Well, let me Just say they have basically dismantled the civil service, okay? And what they have done is cruel. You sign up with the government because you want to serve. You know, and some of our vets, they signed up with the government because they served in the military. Now they're out of uniform, but they still have this desire for service. And to know that you have come in to do a great job and. Let me go to even get more specific, when I came to Labor OIG 10 years ago, we had a couple employees that were not pulling their weight. And what they used to do was just move them from one section to another section. I cut that out. I said, we're not going to pass somebody else's problem on to somebody else. We're going to get rid of them. And that's what we did. And so, you know, and to have a staff that have made the sacrifice. My staff during COVID worked long hours because they understood the mission. We could not fail. And to have that and to be treated this way, it's just terrible. Here's another part that people don't understand and may be missing. You know, the government has an aging workforce, right? So we were trying to figure out how can we get younger? So we're looking to recruit people coming from college. We're looking to bring them on board, and what message are we sending to them? Why would a college student want to come work for the government? The other part that really bothers me as a military person and as a leader of an organization, to have folks be mistreated, and after we've promised them that we would take care of them, they do the best for them. I just think it sends a terrible message. The other thing I would say, as a military guy is that, you know, one thing I learned about leadership is you never go into any organization and make any changes about, you know, two or three months because you've got to observe where the problems are. And the other part I would say about that, if you want to find out how people are performing, go to the latest performance appraisal. They should have done that if they were seriously interested in finding out who was not performing. That's where you would start. And even as an agency head, I depend on my first line and second line supervisors to tell me who's performing and who's not.
- [14:56]
Interviewer
It feels like what's happening now is just absolute chaos. Like, it's like throwing everything up in the air and saying. And picking something and saying, oh, this is fraud, and not really understanding how it's connected to other pieces of the puzzle.
- [15:11]
Larry Turner
Well, you know, Al, you know, you bring up an interesting point. And what I would like to say about that is it is tandemount to me going to maybe a car company and they have on a car that maybe costs about $50,000, and they're saying, hey, I want you to reduce the cost of that car in half to 25,000, okay? And so without me having any understanding or experience on cars, I'm not an engineer, not a mechanic, and I just say, well, you know what? I'm going to cut that in half. And I'm going to, you know, because I think you're wasting $25,000. So what. What would then happen is I would say, you know, just as a novice, someone that didn't know much about cars, I would say, why don't you remove the transmission? And do you. Do you really need four tires? Maybe you could do it three, you know, so to me, what they are doing is something similar. They have people that are not experienced in these different departments and saying, I want to cut that staff in half. 50%, in some cases 90% think they were looking at cutting 80,000 people from VA. And to think that you could just get rid of them and not feel an impact just makes no sense at all.
- [16:25]
Al Letson
When we come back, the firings at government agencies raise questions about the future of our democracy.
- [16:32]
Larry Turner
I am concerned because we're not following the constitution. In some cases, we're not following the process as it has been for years. And to now to have, you know, citizens around the country just really don't know what's gonna happen.
- [16:50]
Al Letson
There's a lot more to talk about with Larry, but first, since you're here.
- [16:54]
Interviewer
With us, I know that you must appreciate what we do at Reveal, and.
- [16:57]
Al Letson
We don't want you to miss a thing. And so don't miss out. Sign up for our free newsletter by going to revealnews.org newsletter and we'll send you the latest from our newsroom in a weekly email. We have to stay connected now more than ever, okay? So don't go anywhere. There's more to the story.
- [17:22]
UNHCR
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- [17:53]
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- [18:55]
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- [19:39]
Al Letson
It's more to the story. I'm Al Letson, and I'm back with former Labor Department Inspector General Larry Turner.
- [19:47]
Interviewer
Larry, do you ever wish you had the power that Doge does?
- [19:49]
Al Letson
I mean.
- [19:53]
Interviewer
Tell me if I'm right, if I understand this correctly, that the inspectors general, they don't have a whole lot of enforcement behind what they can do, right? Like, if you find something's wrong in a government agency, you can go to Congress or go to that agency and present it to them, but they have to take action. Is that correct?
- [20:13]
Larry Turner
You're correct in that. And there lies some of the problem because you need Congress to identify. Because what happens is just a lot of IG does a lot of IG reports over the years, and sometimes there's not an immediate correction to some of the things that we find, and we've talked about this to Congress, we've put in our semiannual report that we provide to Congress as well. But that's where some of the challenges lie. The other thing that I will tell you that really disturbs me and that's the fact that some of the fraud that DOGE is supposedly have found. I just find it amazing because, you know, when we audit a program, okay, we usually put together a team of maybe anywhere from, you know, six to eight people. And they will go look at, like, let's use Job Corps. Job Corps is a huge program. And so we wouldn't be able to go look at all the Job Corps. We would go look at an aspect of Job Corps. Like, for instance, we may go look at, okay, we heard there was some violent incidents that were taking place. So let's focus on that and send a team out to do a study doing an audit on it. Okay? And that may take. With that team usually get, you know, a staff that has worked on that program before. So they are. They start out familiar with it, and then they have to get up to speed and learning how that program works. And that even requires interview with the Job Corps staff. And then it takes us 9 to 12 months to complete an audit. And in that year, we also, as we write this report up, we share this with the department so they can have a chance to provide a rebuttal. Now, this is what we take as professionals, as auditors, that years of experience. It takes us maybe a year to do that. How can a team who are not auditors, who most likely, from everything I hear may be a data analyst or IT specialists, come in and do that same thing for across the government, not just within labor, OIG or labor program, across the entire government. Impossible.
- [22:16]
Interviewer
How did you feel when you found out or when the reports came out that the DOGE team was going in and having access to everybody's personal records?
- [22:29]
Larry Turner
As a private citizen, I was concerned because we live in a world, and I will tell you as the ig, my personal information was compromised. Some crook stole my information and filed for unemployment insurance.
- [22:45]
Interviewer
You're talking about. Hold on, hold on. You're the inspector general and somebody stole your personal information and used it. Oh, my goodness.
- [22:56]
Larry Turner
I mean, one day I got one of my agents. The agents came to my office and, sir, we got something to tell you. Somebody actually used your information and filed a claim. I was like, what? I even told that to. I went on the Hill one day and I told us the Congress, because they would tell me about their wife or somebody said, what happened to me?
- [23:12]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [23:12]
Larry Turner
It's like they didn't even go to even research who Larry Turner was, where he worked at. They just stole my information.
- [23:19]
Al Letson
Wow.
- [23:20]
Larry Turner
So I am concerned because, you know, I've had my, you know, Credit cards compromised a few times or two. And so to notice somebody is going in, someone unauthorized to do so, and someone that may not even have any kind of credentials, may not have the correct security, not even going through the security process, and then they're going and messing and looking at your information. Yeah, that's personal. And one of the things that we all concerned about is with this data, you know, world that we live in, that we gotta make sure that's protected. So, yeah, just even as a private citizen, I'm concerned about that.
- [23:55]
Interviewer
Who took your place? I mean, do you think that Trump is going to install new IGs?
- [24:02]
Larry Turner
We really don't know what's going to happen with that. Right now. All the IGs that have been replaced, their deputies, would be the acting IGs, as mine is with later OIG. And that's problematic in itself because think about it, the IG as well as the deputy ig, they have full time jobs of themselves that are separate. I mean, they work together. But when I was the acting ig, I couldn't wait to become confirmed. And it took me about a little over a year to be confirmed because until that happens, you're doing two people jobs.
- [24:35]
Interviewer
Yeah. One thing that you brought up that made me think about this is that in Trump's first term, he was restrained a little bit by Congress. And it appears where we are is that Congress is no longer doing its job. It is just a rubber stamp for President Trump.
- [24:55]
Larry Turner
I would agree totally what you said. You know, let me just say this. IGs usually get support from both sides of the aisle. You know, when I go down the Hill, maybe, maybe once every six weeks or so to go talk to, you know, Democrats and Republicans and they all embrace our work. When I meet with like say Democrats and Republicans and both of them tell me, great job. I've had Republican congressmen tell me, hey, I just want you to know you got somebody that's, that believes in you. Because when I as an ig, I take this serious to being independent and nonpartisan and I want to be fair to everybody. To me, I'm doing my job, I'm being fair. And as an ignorant, we follow where the facts lead us. I don't have a side because at the end of the day I want to do a great job.
- [25:41]
Interviewer
I have a question that I think about a lot, that at night it kind of keeps me up. Are you scared for this country right now?
- [25:51]
Larry Turner
Oh, without a doubt. I think we are on uncharted territory and I'm concerned about our democracy And I'll be honest with you, when I became an ig, understand, I'm an army guy. So I come be an IG and then see this new world, right? And you know, even work for the government. But seeing this whole new world and funny thing about it, it works just like it's supposed to. When I go to my first meeting of IGs, we call it Siggy, but when I first go to my first meeting, it's like I see all these IGs represent all these different agencies and they are all professional and they're all, you know, executing their job the way that the IG act expects them to do. And so this is one of the biggest tools for the government to have somebody American public, to have somebody that's looking after your best interest. And so to have this just tossed out is shocking. And I don't think our citizens understand just how badly this is. And so I am concerned because we're not following the Constitution in some cases, we're not following the process as it has been for years. And to now to have citizens around the country just really don't know what's going to happen.
- [27:13]
Interviewer
Larry Turner, let me say thank you for your service and thank you for this interview.
- [27:19]
Larry Turner
Well, thank you for the opportunity. You know, I haven't had a chance to share some of my thoughts as deeply as I have with you, and this has given me an excellent form to do so. So thanks.
- [27:32]
Al Letson
This week, a federal judge will hear a lawsuit brought by Turner and seven other inspectors general who were fired by the Trump administration. The former IGs are asking the courts to reinstate them immediately, arguing that their firings violated federal statutes designed to protect them from political interference. Larry Turner says if the lawsuit is successful, he'll return to work at the Department of Labor. To learn more about firings at U.S. government agencies, check out the coverage by our colleagues at Mother Jones. You'll find it@motherjones.com lastly, consider donating to Reveal. We're a nonprofit and our journalism is listener supported. We're celebrating our 10 year anniversary right now and to be here for another 10, we need you. Please donate. Just go to revealnews.org 10 Again, that's revealnews.org 10. This episode was produced by Josh Sanburn and Kara McGurk. Allison theme music and engineering helped by Fernando Mamano Arruda and Jay Breezy. Mr. Jim Briggs, I'm Al Letson. And let's do this again next week. This is more to the story from prx.