He Helped Build the Religious Right. Now He’s Fighting ICE.

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Reveal
Episode Title: He Helped Build the Religious Right. Now He’s Fighting ICE.
Date: January 28, 2026
Host: Al Letson
Guest: Rob Schenck, evangelical minister and former leader in the Christian nationalist movement

This episode focuses on the personal and political transformation of Rob Schenck—from a foundational figure in America’s religious right to an outspoken critic of the movement he helped build. The conversation centers on Schenck’s experiences joining faith leaders in Minneapolis to protest recent violent ICE raids, including the police killings of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy. Schenck reflects on his own complicity, the mobilization of religious communities, and the broader prospects for justice in the face of government overreach and state violence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rob Schenck’s Presence in Minneapolis

• Schenck answered a nationwide call for clergy to support their Minneapolis counterparts in the wake of immigration raids and fatal shootings by agents ([02:53]).
• He describes arriving to find over a thousand religious leaders—Christian and interfaith—gathered for support, solidarity, and public witness.

  “I thought I would find 30 or 40 here… I counted over and over again. It was just amazing to see it.” — Rob Schenck [03:23]

2. Interfaith and Community Solidarity Amid Crisis

• Clergy provided not just moral support but also tangible assistance, especially as local churches cared for injured community members avoiding hospitals out of fear of ICE ([07:00]).
• Schenck discusses a harrowing moment in a church during a lockdown, following a violent ICE encounter with parishioners.

  “…their own members being many immigrant members in that church, they won’t go to emergency rooms or urgent care facilities because they are afraid that ICE will hunt them and capture them there.” — Rob Schenck [08:27]

3. Personal Reflections at Memorial Sites

• Schenck visited both the site of Renee Goode’s death and George Floyd Square, describing intense grief and personal resonance as a father and grandfather seeing echoes of his own family ([09:41]).

  “As I opened my eyes after praying, it was like I was looking at my daughter because of how close they are in age.” — Rob Schenck [11:23]

• At Alex Preddy’s memorial, Schenck found meaning in collective chants and prayer.

  “Say his name. And I chanted his name with the crowd, and it became a litany for me… This was just perfect. To pronounce his name as a litany of prayer.”— Rob Schenck [14:19]

4. Reckoning with Personal Legacy and Movement Baggage

• Schenck candidly assesses his role in building the religious right’s political machine, now appropriated by MAGA and Trumpism, acknowledging both external criticism and self-imposed accountability.

  “I helped construct the platform this has been built on. It wasn’t just me, of course… So I came here loaded with that. I came here with the evangelical label. That’s how I’m known. And there were different reactions to that.” — Rob Schenck [15:21]

5. Can the Awakening of Conscience Fracture Power?

• Asked if grassroots resistance is strong enough to counter entrenched political power, Schenck is guarded but hopeful:

  “I think we’re starting to see, for example, the FBI agent who was tasked with investigating Renee Goode’s wife resigning... When people discover their conscience within the administration, in Congress, in the legislative branch… as more and more people find their conscience and then act on their consciences…it could fracture Trump’s capacity to pull this off in the end.” — Rob Schenck [19:11]

• He underscores that government abuses are increasingly visible both on the streets and within institutions, and that change may come from both public protest and internal dissent.

6. Comparisons to History & the Nazi Era

• Schenck admits to having long feared a turn towards state violence, drawing parallels with the complicity of German churches under the Third Reich ([23:07]).

  “I based that mostly on my study of what happened in Germany… and how the churches behaved in that period. And the churches in Germany in the 1920s and 30s were very close culturally and... doctrinally to the evangelical church in the United States today.” — Rob Schenck [23:51]

7. Signs of Hope in Public Mobilization

• Both host and guest find comfort in mass protest and public solidarity, noting differences between the popularity of Hitler and current poll numbers for Trump ([24:27]).

  “It was emotionally overwhelming for me to see this, these were just ordinary folks… Several told me I don’t go to church. But I knew I had to be here for this… when you see that kind of organic flow of humanity, I find it very, very hopeful. And history would teach that when movements gain that kind of force and participation, the outcome is inevitable. Victory.” — Rob Schenck [26:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On community and personal transformation:
  “You know, I came with a lot of baggage... Some people most warmly embraced me... But others are angry with me and understandably so. And I get that. I don’t need to give them permission... I honor it. I understand it.” — Rob Schenck [15:21]
• On the church’s role in protest:
  “Clergy are the conscience of a culture. So I thought it was extremely important that clergy be called and respond.” — Rob Schenck [04:12]
• On collective resistance:
  “I have to kind of give myself a gentle slap on the cheeks and say, wait, we are still here. This is still happening.” — Rob Schenck [18:27]
• On why hope persists:
  “In seeing the response of the people here from the 50,000 person march…it looked incalculable to me. It was just a sea of humanity… A lot of them spoke during the service and said they had never done anything like this… But they had to with this. So when you see that kind of organic flow of humanity, I find it very, very hopeful.” — Rob Schenck [25:09]

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Key Timestamps

• [02:53] — Why Schenck came to Minneapolis; the mass interfaith clergy turnout
• [07:00] — Experience of ICE agents outside a church, parishioners injured
• [09:41] — Reflections at memorial sites for Renee Goode and George Floyd; personal resonance as a father
• [14:19] — Praying at Alex Preddy’s memorial, the power of collective mourning rituals
• [15:21] — Schenck’s reckoning with his past
• [19:11] — On the awakening of conscience within government as a path to change
• [23:07] — Parallels to church complicity in 1930s Germany
• [25:09] — The importance and hope of grassroots activism and public protest

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Summary

This episode offers a raw, insightful window into both the stakes of contemporary protest against state violence and the deep introspection of a man who helped build the structures now being resisted. Rob Schenck’s journey from architect of the religious right to protest chaplain is framed not only by political context but by personal loss, regret, and reluctant hope. Through powerful real-world vignettes and honest accountability, the conversation navigates despair, resistance, and the ever-present possibility for redemption — both individual and collective.

Transcript

[Rob Schenck]

As agonizing as the last several days have been for me here in Minneapolis, I'm actually coming away guardedly optimistic about how this will end.

[Al Letson]

On this week's More to the Story, a conversation with evangelical minister Rob Schenck. He spoke to us from Minneapolis where he joined clergy from across the country to protest immigration raids in that city. She talks about the fatal shootings of protesters and how he's trying to undo his own legacy as a former leader of the Christian nationalist movement. Stay with us. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. This is More to the Story. I'm Al Letson. Over the weekend, a federal immigration agent killed another US citizen. 37 year old ICU nurse Alex Preddy was shot after being held down by multiple federal agents. The Trump administration alleged that Preddy threatened agents with a gun. But videos show Preddy, who was carrying a licensed handgun, was only holding his phone in his hand when he was tackled and killed. Following Preddy's death, thousands of protesters once again flooded the streets of Minneapolis. One of them was Rob Schenck. You might remember Rob, he was the very first guest I interviewed for what eventually became this podcast. More to the story. Rob was once one of America's most influential evangelical leaders. He routinely lobbied legislators to adopt a Christian conservative agenda and work to persuade Supreme Court justices to rule in favor of the religious right. But Rob began doubting the movement and his own role in it, especially once Donald Trump came to. Since then, he's made a moral and political 180 and is now working to undo his decades of activism that he believes helped lead to this moment. Rob, it is really good to see you. Thanks so much for coming onto the show again.

[Rob Schenck]

Likewise, Al. After nearly a week in this Minneapolis cauldron, I can't think of anyone more soothing to talk with than you.

[Al Letson]

Wow. Thank you. That's a beautiful thing to say. So why did you come to Minneapolis?

[Rob Schenck]

Well, for so many reasons, there was a call to clergy to come to Minneapolis and support our clergy siblings in this city and stand with them and help them in some cases give them some relief, but certainly support and camaraderie and increase their numbers. And over a thousand clergy responded to that call. I couldn't believe it. I thought I would find 30 or 40 here when I arrived. And we went into a mammoth old sanctuary, and I saw it, I just couldn't believe it. I counted over and over again. It was just amazing to see it. It was across Christian denominations, interfaith. There were Buddhists, Sikh, Jewish leadership, a number of Unitarian Universalists, on and on, but I'd say the majority were Christian. And that was the first reason I came. But underlying that was my thoughts about when faith leaders literally took the front line of defense and led the marches with mlk. And, you know, I've always thought of Martin Luther King, Jr. As what he was, an ordained preacher, pastor, prophet in that movement. So I understand the importance. And in many ways, clergy are the conscience of a culture. So I thought it was extremely important that clergy be called and respond. So I was going to go. I don't have the resources that I used to have. So I put out a little test to a small circle of people that helped me in many ways. And I said, you know, if you have any inclination to help me to get there, here's a way you can do it. Within an hour, I had raised all the funds needed to get here to Minneapolis and stay here for however long. And I'm very, very grateful to the folks for doing that. But I'd like to tell you that it's all altruistic. That was certainly a big part of it. My concern after seeing the slaying of a mom, a wife, a community, certainly a neighbor to many, and a vibrant part of her community. Renee Goode. I have a daughter about her age who's been doing some of the things that Renee has done and cares deeply about her neighbors, particularly of color. And so it was personal for me, and that drove me here. But then while being here to have another state killing in the street, a summary, extrajudicial execution. And that's clear now from the images, both video and still photography, crystal clear. This man was executed in the street after he had been disarmed, after he had been fully subdued and was literally on his hands and knees, shot in the back. It's impossible to justify that. When that happened, it just solidified my resolve that I had to be here with my fellows. And I'm. You know, it's been a torturous week, but I am so happy I came.

[Al Letson]

Tell me about that. What have you experienced this week in being in Minneapolis?

[Rob Schenck]

Oh, a rollercoaster ride. Because at one moment, there's every temptation to give in, to despair, into fear, but at the same, almost simultaneously, you look over and you see people being so courageous. Now, I had no close encounters with ICE agents, but plenty of the people around me did. And in one case, we were at a church where we had stopped just for a simple soup lunch. They were serving us. The people here have just been overwhelmingly hospitable, just beautifully hospitable. And they were serving a few hundred of us. And while we were in. We were told the church was in lockdown. ICE was outside. There had been an incident where one of the laypeople, not a clergy member, but there were two women in a car coming to the church. They were stopped. I don't know all the details, except that their side window was shattered. And when I moved into the lobby of the church, I saw them escorting a woman in. I thought she had chemical burns on her face, but it turned out they were injuries from the glass fragments and she was bleeding. Oh, man. And they were taking her to a clinic that had been set up in the church and staffed by volunteers because their own members being many immigrant members in that church, they won't go to emergency rooms or urgent care facilities because they are afraid that ICE will hunt them and capture them there. So this church provides urgent services for their urgent medical services. And she was taken in and cared for there. And again, this was just a neighbor. So you go through highs and lows. So it's exhilaration and despair and then despair and exhilaration. But I know you speak the lingo, so I don't mind saying that in some ways, this has felt like a spiritual revival. It's been amazing.

[Al Letson]

Can you tell me about visiting the Renee Goode Memorial? Like, what was that like?

[Rob Schenck]

Well, I visited Renee Goode's death site on the same day I visited, for the first time George Floyd's death site. So I went to George Floyd Square, went to the exact location where he took his last breath under his killer's knee. So I had that. I was holding that when I approached two spots on the road where Renee Goode was killed. One was where she was first shot. Then you walk a little stretch where she was shot two more times. And then where her vehicle careened off the street, the roadway, and struck another car, which then was jammed up against. I guess her car was against a tree there. And the other car went into a telephone pole. Right there is where this beautiful memorial has been erected. And I looked at her because there were some photos. There was a beautiful. I think it was a pen and ink rendering of her beautiful face. And I prayed for her. Her Loved ones. And for the same courage that I would find somehow, the same courage she had in that moment. And as I opened my eyes after praying, it was like I was looking at my daughter because of how close they are in age. So it was waves. I almost. In that sense, I felt grief because, you know, this is the world my adult children are now inhabiting. And that brought me grief. I have a beautiful grandson, my first grandchild, who's a little brown boy, beautiful brown boy. And his parents are so afraid of the world that he inhabits, and they shield him for a lot of reasons. And all that came at me while I was there. But we were told to hurry. There was a lot of police presence there, and we were told to quickly return to our bus. And I was on my way back to the bus when I realized I hadn't done what I really wanted to do there, which was to leave a meaningful token of some kind. So I ran back, and police were on alert, and I realized running at them was not the best idea. So I had to slow down, pace myself, walk safely. I was wearing my stole, as I usually do in public settings like that. My minister's stall that indicated I was clergy. So they were a little. They weren't sure what to make of me. But I slowed down. Then I approached, and I went back to that pen and ink rendering of Renee's face. And I took a whistle that we were given. Each of us were given whistles to sound the alarm if we saw ice activity and to alert others. And I took that whistle because I knew she used a similar one in her work. And I laid it as my token, my offering. So it was a very intense, very emotional, but very meaningful moment. I did something similar at the site where Alex died. And that was beautiful in a different way, because I knelt to pray there again for him, for his loved ones, especially his parents. I read the public letter that they had put out about their son and their love for him and who he was. And I prayed for them kneeling. But just as I started those prayers silently, the crowd, maybe 75 people or so surrounding that site, started chanting Alex's name. And there was a call for it that was almost plaintive. It was, oh, beautiful cry. Say his name. And the woman putting that call out had a voice that was. That was otherworldly. Say his name. And I chanted his name with the crowd, and it became a litany for me. You know, when we pray, sometimes we use a repetitious litany, a repetitious line. And this was just Perfect. To pronounce his name as a litany of prayer. So both of those, I have to say, one was as meaningful as the other, but in different forms. Look, you know, I came here with a lot of baggage. I helped construct the platform this has been built on. It wasn't just me, of course. I was part of thousands upon thousands of, you know, religious rights operatives who constructed a certain platform on which the Tea Party, then MAGA built the Trump monstrosity. So I came here loaded with that. I came here with the evangelical label. That's how I'm known. And there were different reactions to that. Some people most warmly embraced me, welcomed me, extended grace to me In a way 20 years ago, I would not have extended to them. But others are angry with me and understandably so. And I get that. I don't need to give them permission for that, or I just say it's there. I honor it. I understand it. So, you know, I came with a lot of baggage.

[Al Letson]

Coming up, Rob says there is more.

[Rob Schenck]

Work to do as more and more people find their conscience and then act on their consciences and they step away and they condemn this. It could fracture Trump's capacity to pull this off in the end.

[Al Letson]

More with Evangelical Minister Rob Schenck in a minute. But before we continue our conversation, I want to remind you there is a really easy way that you can keep up with all the important work we're doing here at Reveal. You can sign up for our free newsletter. Just go to revealnews.org newsletter to receive your weekly email reminding you about all of our good reporting. We have to stay connected now more than ever. All right, thank you. And we'll be back in a minute with Rob Schenck. This is more to the story. I'm Al Edson, and we're back with Evangelical Minister Rob Schenck. You would probably know better than most that this administration has built a firewall around itself. This administration has the Supreme Court in its pocket. They currently have the House and the Senate in its pocket. And so I'm just curious if you believe that sleeping giant, the power that the people have that is being awoken is a strong enough adversary for the administration and will actually make change out of it.

[Rob Schenck]

Well, I guess I'm a realist like you, and, you know, and again, you were asking about the range of, you know, experience and feeling, and I. I have to kind of give myself a moment of sobriety because you feel, you know, the uplift when you're marching with 50,000, when you see a thousand clergy coming into the city from all points in the United States. When you see these neighbors and friends being so brave, so courageous in the streets, and you think, wow, this is going to do it. And then I have to kind of give myself a gentle slap on the cheeks and say, wait, we are still here. This is still happening. But I think we're starting to see, for example, the FBI agent who was tasked with investigating Renee Goode's wife resigning when the GOP candidate here in Minnesota just said, I can't associate myself with this, and for all the proper reasons that he articulated. And so he's withdrawing from candidacy, from the gubernatorial race. And when people discover their conscience within the administration, in Congress, the legislative branch, and maybe, maybe, I mean, we've certainly seen some courageous and moral, ethical federal judges taking action, speaking boldly against this, we haven't seen any change at the court. From my encounters with Chief Justice John Roberts over a number of years, I would guess that he's burying at least portions of his conscience, that he's likely having a little trouble sleeping at night. He may be tossing once or twice before he falls off, and who knows? But as more and more people find their conscience and then act on their consciences and they step away and they condemn this, it could fracture Trump's capacity to pull this off. In the end, there is a bumbling incompetence. You can see it in the streets here in Minneapolis. You can see it in the behavior of these ICE agents. They are not a professional, disciplined law enforcement operation. It's clear some of them are. They're looking for the brawl. They're like guys in a beer hall looking for any provocation to get somebody out in the alley and punch some faces, you just see that. And some of them have eyes that look like they want to kill, and they're just looking for their moment to kill. So as people call that out who are inside government and step outside of government, maybe that together with their incompetence could at least weaken this. And maybe in the end we get a correction, first in the midterms, then in the presidential, and we begin to repair the damage, the catastrophic damage that's been done to our culture, to our government, and in my world, to religion, which has been almost mortally damaged.

[Al Letson]

I'm just curious now, after you had your moment when you realized that your push for right wing fundamentalism or maybe a right wing version of Christianity, when you had that moment where you kind of came out of it and realized that you didn't believe any of that stuff anymore, did you ever think that it would get to this point that we're in right now, like where we are with ICE kind of ripping the country apart? And I say ice, but it's probably proper to say with President Trump, with the backing of the Supreme Court, kind of ripping the country apart?

[Rob Schenck]

I'm afraid I did. I did worry that it would come to this point, but I suppressed it. I did my best to manage it. The thought of it was overwhelming, of course, for me, my exit from what I think of now as the right wing religious cult that has become maga, that was a decade long process for me. And the closer I got to my awakening, my full awakening, the more I became almost resigned to the fact that we would get to the level of state ordered killings. And I based that mostly on my study of what happened in Germany in the lead up to the Nazi horror that was the Third Reich and how the churches behaved in that period. And the churches in Germany in the 1920s and 30s were very close culturally and historically and even doctrinally to the evangelical church in the United States today.

[Al Letson]

The one thing that does give me hope is that Hitler was extremely popular. If we look at where we are today, there is an uprising around what this administration is doing, and President Trump's poll numbers are in the toilet. So we do have that difference between the two things.

[Rob Schenck]

I agree with you completely. And frankly, as agonizing as the last several days have been for me here in Minneapolis, I'm actually coming away guardedly optimistic about how this will end. Although I'm not fooling myself into thinking there's still a lot of suffering going on in this moment. There's a lot of violence being perpetrated in this moment as we're talking. And there will be more before there's any cessation of this. There may be much more. But still, in seeing the response of the people here from the 50,000 person march, or however many were there, it looked incalculable to me. It was just a sea of humanity that I marched with on Friday all the way to a little corner Lutheran church. You would drive by and not even notice. And I dropped in there for a vigil. And at first there were just a dozen people in an evening prayer service. And I thought, this is nice. They're coming out to support one another in this time and to speak out against the horrors being perpetrated against them here. And then they opened the front doors and 200 people marched in with candles in their hands. And it was emotionally overwhelming for me to see this, these were just ordinary folks. And I talked to many of them afterwards and several told me I don't go to church. But I knew I had to be here for this and I wanted to come and I wanted to lend my support or they said, this isn't my church. I only go on Christmas. But I came tonight. This is so important. And a lot of them spoke during the service and said they had never done anything like this. Never, never had they gone out into the street to make a statement against anything. But they had to with this. So when you see that kind of organic flow of humanity, I find it very, very hopeful. And history would teach that when movements gain that kind of force and participation, the outcome is inevitable. Victory.

[Al Letson]

Reverend Rob Schenck, thank you so much for talking to me. And we are definitely talking again because there's so much more to unpack and the world unfortunately keeps giving, you know, like we, we keep having reasons to come back together. So hopefully one day we'll have a good reason to talk.

[Rob Schenck]

I look forward to that. AL.

[Al Letson]

That was evangelical minister Rob Schenck. If you like this show, be sure to check out our interview with Rob back in 2024 called a Christian Nationalist Has Second Thoughts. It was an emotional conversation about his decades of activism for the religious right and the regrets he has today. Lastly, a reminder, we are listener supported. That means listeners like you, you can help us thrive by making a gift today. Just go to revealnews.org gift again, that's revealnews.org gift and thank you. Today's show was produced by members of the Justice Society, Josh sandburn and Kara McGurk. Allison Brett Meyers edited the show. Special thanks to Jamila King and Marianne Zegedy Mazak for coordinating this interview, theme music and engineering, helped by Fernando my man Yo Arruda and Jay Breezy. Mr. Jim Briggs, I'm Al Letson. And you know, let's do this again next week. This is more to the story. From prx.