How Sports Became a Battleground Over Trans Rights

Summary

Reveal Podcast: "How Sports Became a Battleground Over Trans Rights"

Date: January 24, 2026
Host: Al Letson
Producers/Reporters: Madison Pauley (Mother Jones), Steven Rascon, Imogen Sayers

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode investigates how the world of sports became a focal point for the fight over transgender rights in the United States. It traces the political, cultural, and scientific forces that transformed disputes over trans women athletes into a national debate—and ultimately, a conservative rallying cry. The episode centers on the media and political rise of former collegiate swimmer Riley Gaines, the science behind hormone therapy and physical advantage, and the experiences of a trans NCAA swimmer under increasing restrictions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The NCAA Race That Ignited a Movement

• [01:25–05:18]
  • 2022 NCAA Championships: The spotlight is on swimmer Leah Thomas, the first openly trans woman to compete at this level.
  • Fifth Place Tie: Leah ties with Kentucky’s Riley Gaines. Despite a fifth-place finish, controversy arises when the NCAA awards Leah the trophy, sparking Gaines’ protest.
  • Riley Gaines Speaks Out: At first measured, Gaines’ critiques soon take a more aggressive anti-trans tone, calling Thomas and other trans women "men" and likening them to predators.
    • Quote: "Any man forcing his way into a woman's private changing area...is absolutely a predator." — Riley Gaines [04:41]

2. From Wedge Issue to Conservative Cause

• [05:18–11:25]
  • Conservative Search for a New Cause: After the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in 2015, conservatives pivoted to transgender issues—first "bathroom bills," then sports.
  • Political Strategy: Conservative think tanks run ads (e.g., 2019 Kentucky governor race) questioning trans women in women’s sports. These ads shift public opinion and inspire state-level legislative bans.
  • Shortage of Trans Athlete Examples: Until Leah Thomas’s high-profile win, most proposed bans had little real-world basis.
  • Riley’s Transformation: Gaines quickly becomes a media fixture, keynoting at CPAC, earning a center in her name (funded primarily by the DeVos family), and cashing in on speaking, media appearances, and advocacy roles.
    • Quote: "I never would have imagined that things worked out the way they did now." — Trinity Ward, former teammate [12:27]

3. Conflicting Narratives: Locker Rooms, Coaches & Abuse

• [11:25–18:55]
  • Changing Perceptions: Teammates recall Gaines as down-to-earth and practical, but grow increasingly disillusioned as her rhetoric sharpens.
  • Locker Room Debate: Riley describes Leah’s presence as a violation; others at the meet remember Leah keeping to herself, trying not to draw attention.
    • Quote: "Any of the times I would see her in there, she's like wrapped in her towel, turned around, not facing anyone. I honestly, I felt bad for her." — Anonymous swimmer [14:43]
  • Real Threats Overlooked: Teammates argue the actual risk was not trans athletes, but abusive coaches. UK coach Lars Jorgensen is banned for life after sexual assault claims.
  • Riley’s Focus: Despite abuse revelations, Riley largely reverts to anti-trans advocacy after briefly commenting on the scandals involving her coaches.

4. Media, Money, and the Anti-Trans Advocacy Machine

• [11:25–21:14]
  • Riley’s National Platform: Payscale skyrockets—from $126k/year to nearly $500k with bonuses, all facilitated by major right-wing organizations.
  • Selective Outrage: Riley is criticized for ignoring allegations of abuse by male coaches while relentlessly targeting trans women as threats.
  • Vulnerable Moments: For the first time, Riley shares her own experience of harassment by a male assistant coach, Chip Klein, and filing a Title IX complaint.
    • Quote: "This is something I've never spoken about because, honestly, I think it takes time to process...I could tell many stories of interactions that we had, forcible interactions." — Riley Gaines [21:14]
  • Strategic Goals: Groups aligned with Gaines admit, "If men can't be women in sports and we win there, they can't be women anywhere." — Kim Jones [24:04]

5. The Science Behind Transition, Hormones, and Athletic Advantage

• [24:44–35:15]
  • What Hormones Change: Endocrinologist Ada Chung explains that gender-affirming hormone therapy reduces muscle mass (~5-7% loss), boosts fat mass, and can reduce cardio performance, but doesn't change stature.
    • Quote: "There's a smaller engine driving this body." — Dr. Ada Chung [26:04]
  • Key Studies:
    • Tommy Lundberg (Karolinska Institute): Finds minimal reduction in muscle size, argues trans women retain "male advantage" if they underwent male puberty, often cited by advocates for exclusion.
    • Blair Hamilton (Manchester): IOC-commissioned study: trans women have lower jump heights, weaker cardio fitness than cis women after ~5 years HRT, but still outpace in hand grip strength; findings are not conclusive.
    • US Air Force Fitness Data: After 2–4 years HRT, trans women’s push-up & sit-up performance matches cis women; running speed advantage persists longer.
  • Politics Trumping Science: Legislatures, federations, and the NCAA move to ban trans women from women’s competition, even as scientists stress the inconclusiveness of the research and the need for more sport-specific studies.
    • Quote: "You should see it as kind of a ticket to another body plan." — Tommy Lundberg [28:23]
    • Quote: "Policies are not waiting for the science." — Steven Rascon [34:39]

6. The Human Story: One Trans Swimmer's Journey

• [35:21–50:51]
  • Megan Cortez Fields’s Story:
    • Swam for Ramapo College in NJ; began on men’s team, transitioned, switched to women’s team after a year on hormones.
    • Overcame family and religious resistance; isolated but found community with supportive coaches and teammates.
    • Targeted by Riley Gaines online, who framed Megan’s records as the product of unfair male advantage.
    • Quote: "I wasn't mediocre. She [Riley] doesn't care about facts. She cares about optics and image." — Megan Cortez Fields [47:20]
    • Swims her last eligible races as NCAA policy changes ban nearly all trans women from women’s competition.
    • Quote: "I loved that moment of me not being afraid and not even thinking about me being trans. I only felt affirmed in being a woman." — Megan [48:58]
    • Reflects on living her dream briefly, then mourning the door closed behind her by changing laws.
    • Quote: "It saddens me to say, like, that was the best of it... it's hard because once you've had it, you only want to feel like that always." — Megan [50:51]

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• "Any man forcing his way into a woman's private changing area... is absolutely a predator."
  — Riley Gaines [04:41]
• "I never would have imagined that things worked out the way they did now."
  — Trinity Ward, Riley’s former teammate [12:27]
• "Any of the times I would see her in there, she's like wrapped in her towel, she's turned around, not facing anyone.... I honestly, I felt bad for her."
  — Anonymous swimmer (about Leah Thomas) [14:43]
• "This is something I've never spoken about because, honestly, I think it takes time to process... I could tell many stories of interactions that we had, forcible interactions."
  — Riley Gaines (on workplace harassment) [21:14]
• "If men can't be women in sports and we win there, they can't be women anywhere."
  — Kim Jones, Independent Council on Women's Sports [24:04]
• "There's a smaller engine driving this body."
  — Dr. Ada Chung [26:04]
• "You should see it as kind of a ticket to another body plan."
  — Tommy Lundberg [28:23]
• "Policies are not waiting for the science."
  — Steven Rascon (producer/reporter) [34:39]
• "I wasn't mediocre. She doesn't care about facts. She cares about optics and image."
  — Megan Cortez Fields [47:20]
• "I loved that moment of me not being afraid and not even thinking about me being trans. I only felt affirmed in being a woman."
  — Megan Cortez Fields [48:58]
• "It saddens me to say, like, that was the best of it... it's hard because once you've had it, you only want to feel like that always."
  — Megan Cortez Fields [50:51]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Leah Thomas & Riley Gaines Tie at NCAA Championships: [01:25–05:18]
• Conservative Strategists Pivot to Trans Sports Bans: [05:18–11:25]
• Riley Gaines’s Advocacy & Funding: [11:25–18:55]
• Locker Room and Coaching Controversies: [14:09–18:55]
• Riley’s Response to Investigation & Personal Disclosure: [19:06–22:07]
• Strategy Videoclip ("If men can't be women in sports..."): [24:04]
• Endocrinologist Ada Chung Explains Hormone Effects: [25:32–26:07]
• Summaries of Major Scientific Studies: [27:12–34:39]
• Transitioned NCAA Swimmer Megan Cortez Fields’s Story: [35:21–50:51]
• Megan Cortez Fields on Her Big Race & Record: [47:20–48:58]

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains Reveal’s hallmark investigative tone—fact-heavy, empathetic toward its subjects, and unafraid to highlight hypocrisy, misinformation, or co-opted outrage. The stories are personal as well as political, with direct testimony from swimmers, advocates, and scientists. The host and reporters treat their sources with respect and nuance, occasionally injecting moments of irony or sadness, reflecting both the stakes for individuals and the broader battle underway.

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For New Listeners

This episode offers an in-depth, multifaceted examination of how sports became a proxy conflict over trans rights. It peels back the political maneuvers and media ecosystem that amplified the issue, grounds the debate in scientific uncertainty and evidence, and delivers an unvarnished look at the human beings most affected—both those leading the charge and those caught in the crossfire.

Transcript

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[C]

The Oscars will be out like the.

[A]

Golden Globes will be out. There's a Super bowl coming up with Bad Bunny.

[C]

Yeah, the start of the year, every year is really a time where some.

[A]

Of these water cooler moments kick off. People really need anything that's galvanizing or hopeful. You seem like you're embodying cringe right now. Yeah, it's weird to see the cringe.

[D]

Process running course through me in real time.

[A]

Listen to the assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast, Apple.

[E]

From the center for Investigative Reporting and prx, this is Reveal. I'm Al Letson. The NCAA Championships is like the super bowl of collegiate swimming. It's a big media event.

[D]

It's the 200 yard freestyle final, and.

[E]

In 2022, the TV cameras are focused on one swimmer in particular, University of Pennsylvania's Leah Thomas.

[A]

That includes Penn's Leah Thomas.

[E]

Leah is a senior and it's her first year swimming on the women's team. The day before she won first place in the 500 yard freestyle.

[D]

Leah Thomas entered this championship with the.

[F]

Best time in this event, but has.

[D]

Since seen both Isabel Ivy and Taylor Ruck swim faster.

[E]

The swimmers line up in their lanes. The buzzer sounds Ruck. And the race is on. Ivy will go out for it.

[B]

They may be two seconds ahead of.

[F]

Leah Thomas in lane number five.

[E]

Taylor Ruck of Stanford is swimming strong. She's ahead of the pack.

[B]

Remember, she had the fastest split of anybody on the 800 free relay. And you know who else went out with her?

[A]

Isabelle Ivey as well.

[E]

Leah Thomas.

[D]

All the way back in fourth place.

[A]

At the turn here in the final.

[E]

Stretch Leah is still way behind.

[B]

And in the 200 yard freestyle, it's.

[A]

A wire to wire win for Taylor.

[B]

Ruck Isabel Ivey takes second and finally.

[A]

Past third Leah Thomas into fifth.

[E]

A fifth place finish usually doesn't make headlines, but this one would because Leah is the first openly transgender woman to compete in an NCAA swimming championship. She ties with a swimmer from the University of Kentucky named Riley Gaines, who doesn't believe Leah should be competing at all. NCAA rules at the time let women participate as long as they've suppressed their testosterone for at least a year. Riley feels it simply was not fair. And when the NCAA gives the fifth place trophy to Leah, it makes Riley even more upset.

[C]

You know, they kind of blatantly told me that Leah would hold the fifth place trophy and that I could pose with the sixth place trophy for photos and would be mailed a fifth place trophy in the mail.

[E]

Riley immediately starts speaking out on right wing media outlets and at first, her comments about Leah are measured. She told the Daily Wire that she's in full support of Leah's transition. Her issue is with the rules that the NCAA put in place. Riley says something similar to Tucker Carlson on Fox News a few weeks later.

[C]

Honestly, I think the NCAA handled everything extremely poorly.

[E]

But over the last three years, Riley has transformed into one of the country's most prominent anti trans advocates, backed by wealthy donors and powerful conservative advocacy groups. And she's gone from blaming the NCAA to attacking Leah and other trans women and girls across the country, insisting on calling them men and often comparing them to sexual predators.

[C]

Any man forcing his way into a woman's private changing area, no matter what he calls himself, is absolutely a predator.

[E]

This hour we're looking into how the world of sports became one of the biggest battlegrounds over transgender rights and how this one race has had ramifications that extend far beyond the swimming pool. We begin with an investigation into the ascendance of Riley Gaines. Mother Jones reporter Madison Pauley explains how this former swimmer has become one of the loudest anti trans leaders in the country.

[A]

A lot had to happen for Riley Gaines to meet her moment. For starters, there was this news that broke in 2015.

[F]

Just moments ago. The Supreme Court and this landmark ruling. The court making same sex marriage legal.

[D]

In this country across every state in this nation.

[A]

It was a groundbreaking decision. And it was also a huge political loss for many conservatives, especially the religious right. One of their most reliable wedge issues was now gone. Conservative strategists knew they needed something new to rally voters around and that something was already out there Rising in the cultural zeitgeist.

[E]

Does Caitlyn Jenner really deserve to be named Woman of the Year? That's what many people are asking after.

[A]

This was a time of growing visibility and acceptance for transgender people, but also consternation.

[E]

One critic writes. Glamour endorses the idea that men are better at being women than we are.

[A]

Glamour did name Caitlin one of their Women of the Year, and Time magazine had just featured Laverne Cox, a star on the hit series Orange Is the New Black, on its cover. But the pushback was coming. In 2016, North Carolina Republicans passed an infamous bill that prevented transgender people in government buildings, including kids in schools, from using the bathroom matching their gender identity. Yet support for trans rights at the time was so strong that the bill backfired. Celebrities and musicians like Bruce Springsteen canceled concerts. The NCAA announced it would relocate all its tournaments from the state. Even then, presidential candidate Donald Trump was saying North Carolina shouldn't have changed its law.

[B]

Leave it the way it is. Right now.

[E]

There have been very few problems.

[B]

Leave it the way it is, North Carolina. What they're going through with all of the business that's leaving and all of the strife, and that's on both sides, you leave it the way it is.

[A]

The pushback was so successful that the next year, the state legislature partially repealed the bathroom law. But then in 2019, a conservative think tank called the American Principles Project did some public polling and landed on a new anti trans talking point that trans women were a threat to women's sports. That year, they ran an ad in the Kentucky governor's election bashing Democratic challenger Andy Beshear. All female athletes want is a fair shot in competition. What if that shot was taken away by a competitor who claims they're a girl but was born a boy?

[C]

Andy Beshear supports legislation that would destroy girls sports.

[A]

He calls it equality. Maybe. But is it fair? This ad was powerful. The American Principles Project reportedly found that it had shifted independents and even conservative Democrats, and it delivered nearly 13,000 new votes to the Republican candidate, even though he still ultimately lost. Soon, Republican politicians all over the country were adopting the cause, introducing bills that would ban trans girls from competing in girls sports. But they had a problem. There just aren't that many trans athletes. Some of the legislators introducing bans couldn't point to a single example of a trans girl competing in school sports in their state. That is, until 2022, when Riley Gaines ties for fifth with Lia Thomas. And the trans athlete issue becomes a national conversation on tv, radio and podcasts like the Joe Rogan experience.

[E]

Look, I'm not saying you can't identify as a woman, be called a woman, be treated as a woman. I'm all for that.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

But when it comes to sports, when you're talking about physical performance, there's a reason why we have male categories and female categories.

[A]

In a picture that circulated widely after their tie, Leah and Riley hold their trophies on the podium. You can see how much taller and bigger Lea is. The sheer optics of them standing next to each other start to resonate. People beyond the Joe Rogan fan base are starting to ask, well, is this fair? Riley is more than willing to say, no, it's not. And not long after her tie with Lea, she gets connected with right wing advocacy groups. Soon she's showing up on TV shows. Joining me now, Riley Gaines. She's a spokeswoman with the Independent Women's.

[D]

Forum and and former swimmer at the University of Kentucky.

[A]

Showing up in campaign ads for politicians who supported her cause.

[C]

I trained from an early age giving it my all to achieve my dream. But for girls across America, that dream is being taken away by men competing in women's sports.

[A]

She's also sharing her testimony in state houses. By my count, at least 10 where anti trans bills were under consideration.

[C]

The number of female athletes who have been denied opportunities again, traumatized or hurt by policies that claim to be promoting inclusion is growing at an alarming rate around this country.

[A]

After a few months, Riley makes a special guest appearance at the 2022 CPAC Convention.

[B]

Where's our beautiful great swimmer?

[A]

Gaines?

[E]

Where's Gaines?

[B]

Look at. Come up here, will you please? Come up here.

[A]

Come up, come up, come on. And take center stage with President Donald Trump. She's been so brave, you know, because a lot of people say you can't talk about it.

[B]

They told me, please don't mention that, sir. It's not politically correct. And I did. About three weeks ago, the place went crazy. It was the largest applause I've ever heard. Come on up here. Look at this, look at this.

[A]

This is just four months after Riley ties with Leah and she's well on her way to becoming a maga, a lister. She gets her own podcast. She'll eventually average five Fox News appearances a month. And an almost 50 year old conservative advocacy group called the Leadership Institute creates something called the Riley Gaines Center. The center raises funds to pay for Riley to go speak on college campuses, share her beliefs and recruit other athletes and students to become anti trans activists. 12 time all American swimmer Riley Gaines.

[C]

Was at ETSU tonight for her Speak Louder campus tour.

[A]

The center has very little presence online, but the Leadership Institute's tax filings start to give a glimpse into who's funding this effort. In 2023, the Reilly Gaines center received at least $123,000 from donor foundations in its first five months. The majority of that came from one of the most powerful Republican donors in the the DeVos family. Betsy DeVos is a billionaire and the former Secretary of Education. The tax filings show how much money Riley was making by going full tilt into anti trans advocacy. At first, her salary as director of the center was $126,000. But right around the time I published my investigation, new tax forms came out showing that in 2024, she was the Leadership Institute's highest paid employee, making a $420,000 bonus on top of a $54,000 salary. That's almost half a million dollars in total. Not bad for a recent college grab. By May of 2025, Riley had left the Institute to, quote, continue her work as a conservative leader, according to a press release. But this is just one of many jobs she's held in the last few years. She has titles across a bunch of conservative groups like the America First Policy Institute and Turning Point usa, the organization founded by Charlie Kirk. I never would have imagined that things worked out the way they did now. Trinity Ward knew Riley. Before all this political fame, she was her teammate at the University of Kentucky. She says she knew a different version of Riley, one who stayed down to earth even in the intensely competitive college swimming environment. She was definitely somebody where I was like, yeah, I want to be like that. I spoke with two other teammates of Riley's, both of whom wanted to remain anonymous out of fear of being targeted by her supporters. They also had similar positive impressions of Riley. Here's Trinity again, who remembers how they both bonded over what it was like navigating life. Coming from a strict religious background, Riley was a very down to earth, very practical person. I think that she was a realist, and I don't think that she was, like, inherently hateful. As a queer person that swam on that team, I never was like, wow, I feel like Riley's gonna hate crying me today, or like, Riley makes me feel unsafe. But those impressions have changed as Trinity and the other two teammates I spoke to watched Riley become more famous and more vitriolic, especially when talking about Leah and her presence in the locker room on the day they tied for fifth place. Riley claims that swimmers were forced to change with Leah and equates it to a sex Crime.

[C]

We did not give our consent. They did not ask for our consent. But in that locker room, we turned around and there's a six floor biological man dropping his pants and watching us undress. Not even probably a year or two years ago, this would have been considered some form of sexual assault, voyeurism.

[A]

But other swimmers at that meet I spoke with told me a different story. They said that anytime they saw Leah, she was keeping to herself, changing in a corner. Here's a swimmer who requested anonymity to avoid backlash from Riley's fans. We've altered her voice to protect her identity.

[F]

People don't usually cover themselves with towels to change or like go in bathroom stalls or anything like that. But any of the times I would see her in there, you know, she's like wrapped in her towel, she's turned around, not facing anyone. I honestly, I felt bad for her. I was like, she didn't ask to be put in this environment with these people and treated this way. She just wanted to come and swim.

[A]

But Riley would keep repeating this talking point, calling Leah a predator in the locker room, even comparing her and other trans women athletes to Larry Nassar, the gymnastics doctor in prison for sexually abusing more than 250 female gymnasts. To Trinity and the other teammates I spoke to, this was extremely frustrating because as they saw it, the real problem wasn't Leah or other trans athletes. It was something way closer to home. Their coach, Lars Jorgensen. Lars had a reputation as a hard nosed swim coach who could turn swimmers into champions. This is him on a podcast hosted by Swim Swam, a news site that covers the world of swimming.

[F]

It all starts with culture.

[A]

And in trying to provide a positive.

[F]

Encouraging culture, again, it's not just about swimming fast. It's being a good student, being a good person. Those things are really paramount to what.

[E]

We do and what we believe in.

[A]

My conversations with Trinity, her teammates, and documents I got from the University of Kentucky all painted a different picture. One where there were intense punishment practices when the team didn't perform to Lars standards. The university investigated and it found that he routinely made the swimmers work out for many more hours than the NCAA allows, including on required days off. The swimmers say Lars would mock and berate them. Eating disorders and mental health breakdowns were also allegedly common. Here's Trinity. So it's like, okay, this person is one of the best swimmers on her team and you're saying you're making jokes about her being fat and not needing to eat cookies, like, I'm a worse swimmer than her. So that must mean that I need to lose weight, too. Yeah. So that's where I'm saying, like, the way that he talked about and treated weight was just not normal. Eating disorders and abusive coaching are widespread problems in women's sports. But at the University of Kentucky, the story gets much darker. In 2024, former swimmers on the team whom Lars had hired as assistant coaches filed a lawsuit alleging that he had sexually assaulted them. This fall, after their claims were investigated, the US center for SafeSport banned Lars from coaching for life. According to SafeSport, the ruling for Lars Jorgensen stems from multiple misconduct charges, including physical and sexual harassment. And allegations of Court documents lay out multiple specific claims of sexual assault, including that Lars raped assistant coaches after Christmas parties he held at his home. In court records, Lars has denied the allegations, and the court case is still pending. He didn't respond to our requests for comment. When these allegations surfaced publicly, Riley responded with a single long tweet that said she felt blindsided and betrayed. She wrote that she condemned sexual violence and noted that abuse is common in women's athletics. She also said the issue of sexual abuse falls in line with her other work. And then that was it. For a year and a half, she went right back to arguing that trans people are a threat to women and to women's sports. This is why Trinity, her former teammate, says she's tired of hearing Riley talk about Leah and other transgender athletes. When I wear my UK swimming gear out, you know, I've had three times where somebody's approached me and asked me about Riley Gaines, and I've said, well, do you know about Lars Jorgensen? I know every single time they've said no. Trinity told me that it's hard for me to care about Riley Gaines tying for fifth when my swim coach is accused of raping my teammates. I originally reported this story as part of a collaboration with a popular sports podcast called Pablo Torre Finds Out.

[D]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre.

[A]

Not long after that show came out, Riley actually devoted an entire episode of her podcast to respond to my investigation.

[C]

This article, it's by Mother Jones. I guess that's the outlet of which Pablo partnered with. Again, like, I have no idea the structure of how this works. The article is super duper long.

[A]

For starters, she appreciated the illustration that ran with the story.

[C]

I'm not gonna lie, I kind of like, like the ambiance of it.

[A]

The illustration shows her standing in front of the Supreme Court in her University of Kentucky swimsuit and as people around her are primping her for A photo.

[C]

Op, people doing my makeup, putting lipstick on me, curling my hair, spraying perfume, you've got.

[A]

But she was less enthusiastic about the reporting.

[C]

It isn't journalism. This was a smear campaign.

[A]

To be clear, I reached out at least a dozen times to Riley and to her representatives to try to get a hold of her. No response. I also sent her a long list of questions, which she never answered. But after my story published, she read out most of those questions on her podcast and did answer them. She defended her work as a paid anti trans activist and said that at the time she began speaking out, she didn't know how well she'd be received or how much money it would eventually make her.

[C]

When I spoke out, there was no million dollar sponsorship waiting for me. All of the female athletes who came before me had either been ignored, they'd been punished, they'd been belittled. I knew that, okay? I knew what I was risking, and I had no reason to suspect that I would be treated any differently than those women.

[A]

She also responds to the teammates questioning her for not using her platform to speak more openly about the sexual assault claims against Lars Jorgensen, her head coach at the University of Kentucky.

[C]

My response to that is, why haven't they done that? Guess what? None of my teammates have used their platform to disavow these things. If they feel so strongly, I would highly encourage them to do it, because guess what? It is a problem.

[A]

But Trinity did speak out about Lars to me. She and her teammates also aren't being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to talk about protecting women in women's sports, which is how Riley now makes a living. But in her responses, Riley did make a pretty rare and vulnerable disclosure based on a question I asked her.

[C]

The reporter's asking me about a sexual harassment investigation into another coach that we had, an assistant coach by the name of Chip Klein. She says that all three of the teammates that she talked to indicated that I was a target of Klein's behavior. This is something I've never spoken about because, honestly, I think it takes time to process and really grapple with some of the abuse. I don't really use that word lightly either. I could tell many stories of interactions that we had, forcible interactions.

[A]

She says those interactions were clearly inappropriate and unprofessional.

[C]

Definitely not acceptable behavior from a coach, an authority figure, to an athlete, a female student athlete.

[A]

Again, this was the first time I'd heard Riley speak about personally experiencing abuse, not from a trans woman, but from her male coach.

[C]

I went to the title IX office. After I had had enough with this coach's behavior, he never stepped foot back on that pool deck again.

[A]

The University of Kentucky suspended Chip Klein and his contract was not renewed after multiple swimmers, including Riley, made complaints against him in 2019. These complaints are included in records I got from the university's investigation. We reached out to Klein, but he declined to comment for the story. In her podcast, Riley will go on to say that the reason she focuses on trans athletes is because nobody else is willing to denounce them, as opposed to sexual abuse, which everyone is against. Still, my reporting shows there is an entire wing of the media, not to mention a political party, devoted to amplifying Riley's message. And the movement she's been helping lead has now come to a dramatic turning point. Just a few years after tying for fifth, Riley Gaines is now winning. In February 2025, the NCAA banned trans women from women's competitions. Months later, the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee did the same thing. So have more than half of states. And now all of this is headed toward a major test at the Supreme Court. Mr. Chief justice, and may it please the court. Idaho concedes that this month justices heard a pair of cases brought by trans athletes who argue that state bans are a kind of sex discrimination prohibited by the Constitution and by Title ix. Meanwhile, Riley Gaines is suing the NCAA for letting Lia Thomas and other trans athletes compete. Riley's case is funded by a whole other group called the Independent Council on Women's Sports, co founded by a person named Kim Jones, who on this Instagram video I found is pretty explicit about the strategy here. If men can't be women in sports and we win there, they can't be women anywhere.

[F]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

And so it is a really easy place for the public to rally behind we also to this group and to Riley herself. The goal is about way more than sports. It's about making sure that the law does not treat trans women as women anywhere.

[E]

That was Mother Jones reporter Madison Pauley. This segment was produced by Reveal's Najib Amini. The debate over transgender women athletes has reached a fever pitch. But how does gender affirming hormone therapy change a transgender woman's body?

[A]

So there's a 5% decrease in muscle mass, that's in the first 12 months, but there's a 30% increase in fat mass.

[E]

The science that gets drowned out next on reveal. From the center for Investigative Reporting and prx, this is Reveal. I'm Al Letson. The photo of Riley Gaines standing next to Leah Thomas on a podium after they tied for fifth place sparked Internet outrage. Leah, a transgender athlete, towered over Riley. Some people were calling her a cheater. And a man in Australia, a doctor named Ada Chung, decided to respond with this on X.

[A]

Many will look at a transgender woman's face and height, which doesn't change with feminising hormones, and think it's unfair. That is an assumption, a stereotype, and not based on any science.

[E]

Ada treats trans patients she was trying to educate. So she pointed out how trans women's bodies change in ways that are harder to see.

[A]

So there's a 5% decrease in muscle mass that's in the first 12 months, but there's a 30% increase in fat mass.

[E]

This shift in body composition, Ada says.

[A]

Means there's a smaller engine driving this body.

[E]

In other words, trans women may keep their height and larger frame, but the feminizing hormones they're taking are making them weaker, which means they have to work harder to run or jump or do anything athletic.

[A]

And.

[E]

And Ada's credentials go beyond just treating trans patients.

[A]

I lead a trans health research group at the University of Melbourne in Australia.

[E]

Still, it didn't go over well.

[A]

Following that, there was intense hate mail, which really took me by surprise.

[E]

As the debate over trans women athletes escalates, the science research behind this divisive issue often gets forgotten or drowned out. But our producer, Steven Raskone has been reading studies and talking to scientists like Ada who are trying to figure out how gender affirming hormone therapy impacts a trans woman's body. To understand, do they have an advantage when competing with cisgender women or not? The answer isn't so simple. And Steven's here with me to explain. Stephen, how you doing, man?

[D]

Hey, Al.

[B]

Good to be here.

[E]

Okay, so where do we start?

[B]

Let's start chronologically with some of the early research that starts during this time when trans athletes are becoming a political wedge issue. It's from a sports scientist named Tommy Lundberg. I'm Tommy Lundberg.

[A]

I work at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden. I do both research and teaching there.

[D]

My main area is exercise physiology.

[B]

So in 2019, Tommy publishes a study and it gets a lot of attention.

[F]

He.

[B]

His research is pretty straightforward. He measures the thigh muscles of 11 trans women after they start to suppress their testosterone and take estrogen. And he found that after a year they had lost 5% of their muscle. He does a follow up study five years later and finds a 7% decrease in muscle size. And he concludes that for the most Part, the hormone therapy they're undergoing is only slightly impacting their strength. It's not removing the male advantage. To Tommy, trans women will always have a male advantage if they went through male puberty, which he says gives them this physical edge in sports, which can't be reversed.

[A]

You should see it as a kind of a. You either have it or you don't. It's kind of like a ticket to another body plan.

[E]

So is muscle mass all it takes to have an advantage as an elite athlete, or are there other factors at play here?

[B]

I found that there are other factors to consider. Other studies I looked at went beyond just measuring muscle mass and looked at how hormone therapy might impact things like cardio fitness. So, for example, the International Olympic Committee commissioned a study that came out in 2024.

[F]

The actual aim of the study was.

[D]

Just basically to find out what a transgender athlete was.

[B]

This is Blair Hamilton, a sports and exercise scientist from Manchester Metropolitan University in the uk. Blair is one of researchers on that study which is trying to figure out where does the trans athlete fall in comparison to cisgender men and women? Do they align more closely with one group over the other? To figure that out, they looked at the jumping ability, hand grip strength and Cardio Fitness of 23 trans women athletes. And the preliminary results show that compared to CIS women, trans women had a lower jump height and lower cardio fitness. The researchers say this could be because the trans women had lower lung capacity and when their weight was accounted for, they also had lower oxygen levels.

[E]

This is what the scientist earlier was talking about. Bigger body, smaller engine.

[B]

Exactly. And then finally, trans women outperformed CIS women when it came to hand grip strength.

[E]

How long had these trans women been suppressing their testosterone and taking estrogen?

[B]

Most of these trans women had been on hormone therapy for about five years. But since the scientists were not following them over a period of time, it's hard to say when those changes kicked in without baseline data. Blair acknowledges the study isn't perfect, but says the findings are meaningful and the team needs to keep following these trans women and have them do more athletic challenges like kicking a soccer ball. So for now, Blair says the results are just not conclusive.

[D]

It sort of hints at the fact that these transfer female athletes are not.

[F]

The same as cisgender male athletes.

[D]

And that's the whole premise of this, right?

[F]

You hear it all the time that, you know the terminology these days, that these, these athletes are just biological males.

[D]

That identify as women, which is a bit of a dog whistle to me.

[E]

So, Stephen, you've laid out Tommy's study and Blair's study and they're coming up with different conclusions. What else is out there that's worth considering?

[B]

I did find this other research that was interesting. It's on trans people in the US Air Force who have to do annual fitness tests. Researchers thought, well, we already have this data. Let's look at how trans people were performing on these tests over time and compare it to CIS men and women also taking the tests.

[E]

That's interesting because it also means that this is a group of people that while they may not be elite athletes, they're probably pretty good shape.

[B]

That's right. And it's been an issue in some of these other studies. The trans women in Tommy's study, for example, weren't athletes. And so according to the lead author of this Air Force study, after two years of hormone therapy, the number of sit ups and push ups that trans women could do were fairly equivalent to the cisgender women. But trans women were still 12% faster when it came to running a mile and a half. A similar study looking at these tests found that it could take up to four years for trans women to have closer results to CIS women.

[E]

Stephen, you've laid out a lot of different findings here. What's the research that seems to be breaking through? What's getting the most attention?

[B]

Well, Al, Tommy's study gets a lot of attention from people who oppose trans women in women's sports. I found his research cited in at least eight legislative hearings in US States promoting bans. Riley Gaines also cites Tommy's work in her lawsuit against the ncaa. And in the current Supreme Court case, the state of Idaho is using Tommy's conclusion, which says testosterone suppression does not erase the male advantage, as part of its argument to defend its trans athlete ban. It's also worth mentioning, Al, that some scientists say one of Tommy's co authors, Emma Hilton, has a conflict of interest because she's been involved in advocating against trans women beyond just sports. I reached out to her to ask about this, but she never responded to my questions. For Tommy, the science is clear. He firmly believes that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's sports.

[E]

Does he think that they should compete in the men's category? No.

[B]

He also believes that trans women don't. Don't belong in the men's category either because their hormone therapy puts them at a disadvantage.

[D]

That's the whole problem here, right?

[A]

There is no single solution.

[D]

You have to prioritize what's the most.

[A]

Important sporting objective here. If it's to prioritize fair competition for.

[B]

Females, then you cannot include trans women.

[A]

Or anyone with a male advantage. But of course, if a specific sport or someone decides that, no, we don't.

[D]

Prioritize that so much, we prioritize more.

[A]

The inclusion of trans people, then of.

[D]

Course, then you will come to a different solution.

[B]

But Al, other scientists don't believe that the science is settled. Like Tommy, they say the research appears to show that trans women can be on par or close to on par with CIS women after two years or more of hormone therapy. But I think many feel like to really answer this question of advantage and fairness, it's going to take some time, like somewhere between five and ten years of research.

[E]

I know science takes a while, but why so long?

[B]

I mean, simply because it's hard to find trans people to study. They make up less than 1% of the population. And it's even harder to find elite trans women athletes. One researcher told me, you can count them on one hand. But the other thing is that many scientists, al, believe you have to study trans women's performance in each sport.

[E]

Cause they can have a physical advantage in one sport and not in the other.

[B]

Exactly. A trans woman may have an advantage as a soccer goalie because of her height, but not have an advantage as a long distance runner because of a lack of endurance. But the policies around this are not waiting for the science. States and sporting federations are banning trans athletes from participating in girls and women's sports across the US and trans advocates say that once bans are in place, it's really hard to reverse them.

[E]

Stephen, my man, thanks so much for bringing this story to us.

[B]

My pleasure, Al.

[E]

Coming up, one of the last trans female swimmers to compete as a woman in the ncaa.

[F]

I loved that moment of me not being afraid and not even thinking about me being trans.

[E]

That's next on Reveal. From the center for Investigative Reporting in prx, this is Reveal. I'm Al Edson. We spent today's show talking about transgender athletes. We want to end it by talking to a transgender athlete, Megan Cortez Fields. Megan swam for Ramapo College, a small public school in New Jersey. And she became the focus of national attention when she broke a school record there in 2023, in part because of Riley Gaines, the anti trans activist who we talked about earlier in the show. After Megan's record, Gaines tweeted, ramapo College swimmer in New Jersey goes from less than mediocre male swimmer to a record smasher competing against the women. Gaines ended the tweet with the hashtag SaveWomensSports. Megan was being targeted and attacked and even faced death threats. And she would become one of the last trans female swimmers to compete as a woman in the ncaa. Reporter Imogen Sayers, who is a trans woman herself, sought out Megan to learn what. What it was like for her to go through such a monumental transition in life and in the pool. Here's Imogen.

[D]

This is the rhythmic sound of Megan Cortez Fields swimming the breaststroke, pulling and kicking her way through the water. Megan learned to swim at age 6. She built her career on technique and a deep understanding of how to move through the water with ease. She learned this from her high school swim coach.

[F]

He would always make us think about what we're doing with our bodies to propel us to the water. He was also a nuclear physicist, so that kind of explained why he made us be very methodical and scientific about the way that we see swam. But I really enjoyed that having. I didn't know at the time that I had a science brain, but it makes sense now, like being very analytical and technical about how I was doing things.

[D]

Megan's now fully embraced her science brain. At Purdue University, where I am a.

[F]

PhD student in chemistry, Megan's chemistry lab.

[D]

Is her happy place.

[F]

I kind of just like forget about all the things that I do worry about being trans and of all the things that are currently happening. It just feels nice to just be a grad student or just a person hanging out with their friends.

[D]

Megan longed for community. That's why she chose to swim at a school like Ramapo College. It wasn't super competitive, and it felt more nurturing.

[F]

I completely fell in love with Ramapo. I loved the team. The women would cheer for the men, and the men would cheer for the women. Like, they just felt like they were good friends, and I wanted something like that.

[D]

Megan spent her first year at Ramapo swimming for the men's team. But she'd known for a while that it didn't fit with her gender. She was stuck on a seed that had been planted in her mind. Back in high school.

[F]

I made this drag Persona named Magnesium, and it was for this competition. That's where the upperclassmen boys in high school would do this kind of man pageant. And the first year that I did it, I did a little performance. It was a grand time. I had one of my friends who was trying to do drag makeup on me for the first time, and it was a whole mess. But I had a great time performing. I felt alive. And when I saw myself in the mirror, I began to see who I am today.

[D]

I think, like every trans woman has a moment where we saw ourselves for the first time. Mine was also. While swimming with the men, Megan took baby steps by embracing the woman that she saw in the mirror. Back in high school, her mom was one of the first people she told over the phone.

[F]

And we're just talking about things, and then it gets silent, and I go, mom, I think I'm trans. I think I'm a transgender woman. And she told me, no, you're not. You need to pray about it. That's not who God said you were.

[D]

How did it feel to hear that from her?

[F]

I cried. It hurt so much. Me and my mom are religious, and we use Christianity to get us through life. Psalms 139, 14. You are fearfully and wonderfully made, gave me the power to come out to my mother. So for my mom to tell me, no, that's not who you are, and that's not who God said you are. Hurt because she was using my religion against me. I never felt so alone because me and my mom are so close.

[D]

The thing about being trans, in my experience at least, is that finding out you are isn't this big relieving moment for me. At first, being trans made everything in my life messier. My relationships, my career, and even my relationship with myself. The same thing was happening to Megan. Years later. She'd understand that her mom just needed some time to accept that she had a daughter and not a son.

[F]

She was in a lot of pain when I said that for so many reasons. She just was scared that she might lose me because I made this choice.

[D]

Today, Megan's mom embraces and supports her daughter. But at the time, Megan says her mom's response left her feeling isolated.

[F]

I was just an open wound to gender dysphoria and insecurities. I got so stressed, I started having narcolepsy, like, symptoms to where, like, I would pass out in the pool and, like, fall asleep while swimming.

[D]

Megan's college coach, Gary, doesn't know that she's trans, but he can tell that she's struggling. He's worried about her. So he tells Megan to take the rest of the season off. And it's during that time that she watches as Lia Thomas becomes the first openly trans person to win an NCAA championship. Lia Thomas Pulling away over the final.

[A]

150 meters, Thomas wins the NCAA championship.

[F]

I'm very humbled and honored to hold that title, and I can only hope that I'm able to give other trans People, the inspiration and motivation I was given. She was quite literally like a one for one example for what I thought was not possible. I've never seen a trans person do sports. It changed my mindset so much that I was like, I need to get on hormone and I needed to switch teams. She showed me that it was possible that I did not have to choose between swimming and myself.

[D]

Armed with fresh self confidence, Megan emails her athletic director.

[F]

The athletic director was very receptive.

[D]

She learns that to switch teams, the NCAA requires her to suppress her testosterone for at least one year. So she starts taking estrogen and begins what's known as hormone replacement therapy. She takes her first injection at Pride in New York City.

[F]

Exactly. It was a very happy pride, and it was kind of a good birthday in a sense for hormone therapy.

[D]

What was it like to get back in the pool? Having started hrt, it'd only been like.

[F]

A month and a half since. Since I started hormones. Not much had changed. I maybe was budding, so, like, you know, the idea of breasts were coming into my being.

[D]

Megan's going through a female puberty. It's her junior year, and she's still swimming on the men's team in a Speedo. By this time, Coach Gary knows that she's transitioning.

[F]

Granted, he'd trip up on the pronouns and names, and I was just like, coach, don't worry about it. You're doing great.

[D]

Megan says Coach Gary looked out for her best interests and that he was concerned about her using kinesiology tape to compress and cover her breasts.

[F]

I would have to tape my breasts because I didn't want to be disrespectful to myself and kind of just had my breasts out.

[D]

KT tape, as she calls it, is usually used by athletes to tape up a sore ankle or an injured knee.

[F]

He was like, does that hurt? I was like, it does. Have you ever had to put, like, the waterproof KT tape on yourself and then take it right off? It hurts. Over your breasts, which have nipples that, you know, when you're on estrogen, can get quite sensitive. It hurts. And he did everything he could to allow me to wear a women's suit for my needs.

[D]

Thanks to Coach Gary, Megan was finally able to ditch the tape and the Speedo. Most of us know the half naked awkwardness that sometimes comes with being in front of other people in a swimsuit. But when you're trans, it's the same awkwardness, but on steroids. I feel exposed on a pool deck. Some variation of how do people see Me echoing incessantly in my head, hoping they'll see me as I do and worried that they don't. After years of not feeling seen herself at the start of her senior year, Megan gets some great news from Coach Gary. One day at practice, he calls her.

[F]

Over and then he shows me a PDF on his phone. And it's showing the acceptance of me being able to transfer to the women's team.

[D]

It's Megan's last year as an athlete. She's been on hormone replacement therapy for a little over a year, and there's four months left of the season.

[F]

Therefore, I am allowed for the rest of the season to compete on the women's team. And I was like, really? He was like, really? And then I run over to go tell my friends.

[A]

I was like, yes. Like, period. Like, I want you to swim with me.

[D]

That's Camila, one of Megan's best friends and co captain of the women's team.

[A]

Once she got onto the women's team, it just felt so natural. Like, I was just like, yes, like.

[C]

Come into, like, the safe space.

[D]

Why was that important for you?

[A]

Oh, no, I'll get emotional. But it made me so happy that she could, like, finally swim alongside me and, like, we could race together. Like, it honestly warmed my heart just to, like, swim with, like, my friend, my teammate.

[D]

Not everyone was feeling quite as warm and fuzzy as Camila, though.

[A]

Individuals on the men team were, like, trying to push back and get our coach to, like, honestly get her out of swimming entirely.

[D]

But that didn't happen. About a month after joining the women's team, Megan sets a school record for the 100 yard butterfly. This is the race that sets off Riley Gaines first Twitter attack. The tweet that refers to Megan as a mediocre male swimmer and a record smasher who's competing against women. Back then, it hit Meghan hard, but today, not so much.

[F]

I think that's so funny for her to say because I wasn't mediocre. She doesn't care about facts. She cares about optics and image. And the optics and image is that I'm a mediocre male that could only get success on the women's team.

[D]

Then a few months later, she beats her own record. I asked her to walk me through that race.

[F]

I dove into the water. We're racing and I'm keeping up with mostly everyone, but I'm a little bit behind.

[D]

So she starts to push herself and.

[F]

I just, I give it my all. We're coming into the last, like, 10 meters and I start to catch up to people. And then I touch the wall, and my team is cheering for me, and my mom congratulates me.

[D]

Megan comes in second and wins a silver medal in the New Jersey Athletic Conference Championships. Riley notices and tweets about Megan again.

[F]

Honestly, Riley, for the second time commenting on me getting my second record didn't even phase me. I was like, girl, shut up. Turn off my notifications. And moved on and did great the next day.

[D]

This was the most successful swim meet of Megan's life. It was also her last. Overall. She swam ten races that weekend. The butterfly was the only one she placed in. But it was about so much more than that. Megan was living her dream, celebrating her win and cheering for her friends, including the swimmer who beat her.

[F]

That weekend at the championships was one of the best weekends of my life. I loved swimming, and I loved that moment of me not being afraid and not even thinking about me being trans. I only felt affirmed in being a woman.

[D]

Three months after that, the NCAA adopted a new policy. From that point on, only trans women who have not been through male puberty would be allowed to swim as women. Then last year, after President Trump signed his executive order that bans trans women from women's sports, the NCAA went even further, instituting a complete ban on trans female athletes. They will no longer be able to compete as women in all sports, not just swimming. Closing the door like this, it's a familiar feeling for trans women like me. The trans experience for me has been, like, feeling like, you know, I can't be part of that. Like, that's not for me.

[F]

I still believe that about certain things in my life, but for something that I thought a little over a year ago that was never gonna happen for a year later, for it to literally happen was just insane. And it saddens me to say, like, that was the best of it, in a sense. I try to remind myself like, that is a feeling that's completely possible to have. I've had that feeling. But it's hard when my country and my government is trying to turn the world and people against me to where I feel like that's not an experience I can have anymore. And it's hard because once you've had it, you only want to feel like that always.

[E]

That story is reported by Imogen Sayers. Our lead producer for this week's show is Steven Rascon. Cynthia Rodriguez edited the show. Special thanks to Henry Carnell, Sam Van Pikeren, Madison Pauley, and Melissa Lewis. Our fact checkers are artist Cheriscus, with help from Cheyenne McNeil. Victoria Baranetsky is our general counsel. Our production manager is the Great Zula Macabre Score and sound designed by the dynamic duo Jay Breezy, Mr. Jim Briggs and Fernando My Man Yo Arruda. Taki Telenides is our deputy executive producer. Our executive producer is Bret Myers. He had help this week from Kate Howard. Our theme music is by Camerado Lightning. Support for reveals provided by the Riva and David Logan foundation, the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family foundation foundation, the Robert Wood Johnson foundation, the park foundation, the Schmidt Family foundation, and the Hellman Foundation. Support for reveal is also provided by you our listeners. We are a co production of the center for Investigative Reporting and prx. I'm Al Edson and remember, there is always more to the story.

[A]

From prx.