Lessons From a Mass Shooter’s Mother

Summary

Reveal Podcast: "Lessons From a Mass Shooter’s Mother"

Hosted by Al Letson, Reveal delves deep into investigative stories that inform and inspire. In the episode titled "Lessons From a Mass Shooter’s Mother," released on May 17, 2025, the focus is on Chin Roger, the mother of Elliot Rodger—the perpetrator of the tragic 2014 Isla Vista mass shooting. This detailed summary captures the essential discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in the episode.

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1. Introduction

The episode begins by recounting the events of April 2014, when a welfare check was made on Elliot Rodger, leading up to the Isla Vista massacre. Host Al Letson sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of the factors that contributed to the tragedy and introduces Chin Roger, Elliot’s mother, who shares her perspective for the first time.

Notable Quote:

“It's been 11 years since this tragedy, and like with any mass shooting, a central question haunts what happened? Could anything have been done to prevent it?”
— Al Letson [00:56]

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2. Elliot Rodger’s Background

Elliot Rodger, a 22-year-old with developmental disabilities, struggled with social interactions and was heavily bullied throughout his adolescence. Despite his parents' efforts—seeking special education, therapy, and support—Elliot became increasingly isolated and desperate.

Notable Quotes:

“Elliot always had issues with making friends. So all the time his issues has been social, how to talk to anybody, not just girls.”
— Chin Roger [07:32]

“He was really good at hiding them.”
— Mark Fohlman [10:11]

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3. Warning Signs and Missed Interventions

Chin Roger discovered distressing videos and diaries written by Elliot, revealing his descent into rage and despair. Despite various interventions, including life coaches and visits from deputies, no threat assessment team was in place to connect the dots and potentially prevent the massacre.

Notable Quotes:

“I have never, never saw him as suicidal.”
— Chin Roger [11:33]

“Elliot didn’t just suddenly snap. He was a troubled person who spiraled into crisis over a long period of time and planned what he would do.”
— Al Letson [12:01]

“It's very, very difficult to see all of this when you are in it now.”
— Chin Roger [03:22]

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4. The Mass Shooting and Immediate Aftermath

On May 23, 2014, Elliot Rodger committed a heinous act by killing six people and injuring fourteen before taking his own life. The media quickly labeled him as an "incel" (involuntarily celibate) killer, which unfortunately inspired copycat attacks and perpetuated a misleading narrative.

Notable Quotes:

“He just did it.”
— Dr. Sherilyn Lee [09:25]

“He was on certain sites expressing these views. He unknowingly became this antihero for this group.”
— Dr. Sherilyn Lee [10:11]

“Elliot did not see himself as a leader of any group. Yet, to this day, copycat attackers praise him and media coverage keeps the cycle going.”
— Chin Roger [39:45]

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5. Impact and Lessons Learned

The aftermath of the shooting led to significant changes in violence prevention strategies, particularly the establishment of threat assessment teams and the implementation of Red Flag Laws. These measures aim to identify and intervene with individuals exhibiting warning signs of potential violence.

Notable Quotes:

“The quicker the intervention, the higher likelihood of lives being saved.”
— Dr. Steven White [41:16]

“Most mass shooters give off warning signs in the weeks and months before their attacks.”
— Mark Fohlman [17:59]

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6. The Role of Threat Assessment Teams

Threat assessment teams, composed of psychologists, counselors, administrators, and law enforcement, play a crucial role in identifying and intervening with individuals at risk of committing violence. These teams look for both warning signs and positive inhibitors to support those in need.

Notable Quotes:

“We look at the totality of the information together.”
— Richard Martinez [26:22]

“Threat assessment teams don’t just look for warning signs. They also look for what they call positive inhibitors.”
— Mark Fohlman [45:53]

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7. Chin Roger’s Journey to Advocacy

Years after the tragedy, Chin Roger began speaking publicly, sharing her insights and advocating for better violence prevention measures. Her journey from silence to advocacy has been both healing for her and instrumental in educating professionals about the complexities of preventing mass shootings.

Notable Quotes:

“I hope that my hindsight will be your foresight.”
— Chin Roger [01:58]

“I think one of the most important things I want to get through is that if you are an individual with emotional social issues contemplating suicide or this pathway, if you’re a parent, individual around this person, call someone, tell someone.”
— Chin Roger [49:39]

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8. Implementation of Red Flag Laws

Inspired by the Isla Vista case, California enacted Red Flag Laws (Gun Violence Restraining Orders) in September 2014, allowing authorities to temporarily remove firearms from individuals deemed a danger to themselves or others. These laws have since been adopted by 22 states and Washington, D.C., proving effective in preventing potential tragedies.

Notable Quotes:

“The gun violence restraining Order, that's an ability for law enforcement or family to... seize weapons.”
— Dr. Steven White [43:19]

“Research shows these laws are effective for preventing suicide and mass shootings.”
— Mark Fohlman [43:19]

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9. Conclusion

"Lessons From a Mass Shooter’s Mother" underscores the importance of early intervention, comprehensive threat assessments, and supportive legislation in preventing mass shootings. Chin Roger’s advocacy continues to influence how professionals approach potential threats, emphasizing that individuals who commit such acts often feel profoundly alone and in need of help.

Notable Quotes:

“Most people who intend on committing acts of targeted violence, there's leakage. They need help before it's too late.”
— Mark Fohlman [50:54]

“If you are an individual with emotional social issues... do not be alone in it.”
— Chin Roger [49:39]

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Key Takeaways

• Early Warning Signs: Mass shooters often exhibit behaviors and make statements that can serve as red flags. Recognizing these signs is crucial for prevention.

• Comprehensive Intervention: Threat assessment teams, equipped with multidisciplinary expertise, can effectively intervene when potential threats are identified.

• Legislative Action: Red Flag Laws empower authorities to act swiftly to remove firearms from individuals posing a risk, thereby preventing potential tragedies.

• Advocacy and Education: Personal accounts, such as Chin Roger’s, are invaluable in shaping prevention strategies and fostering a deeper understanding of the underlying issues leading to mass shootings.

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This episode of Reveal offers a poignant exploration of the complexities surrounding mass shootings, emphasizing that with the right systems in place, tragedies like the Isla Vista massacre can potentially be prevented. Chin Roger’s transformation from a grieving mother to an advocate serves as a powerful testament to the impact one individual can have on national policies and prevention strategies.

Transcript

[Al Letson]

From the center for Investigative Reporting and prx, this is Reveal. I'm Al Edson. It's late in the day, April 2014, when a call comes into the Santa Barbara County Mental Health Crisis hotline. A worried mom hasn't heard from her son in days, and she's just found a troubling video he posted online. The dispatcher alerts the sheriff's office, and deputies go out to his apartment for a welfare check. When the young man answers the door, he's calm and courteous. He says his mom is overreacting and he's fine.

[Chin Roger]

They found him. To be polite, the officer had him call me on his phone to let me know that he was okay. He passed the phone to one of the officers who asked him, why did I call the police? Your son is fine.

[Al Letson]

The deputies determine that he looks and sounds okay. There are no signs he's in danger, so they leave. But they had no idea he had weapons and ammo stockpiled in his room. Just over three weeks later, he would commit a mass shooting in Isla Vista, California, a college town near Santa Barbara. He killed six people and injured 14 others before taking his own life.

[Mark Fohlman]

Foreign.

[Al Letson]

It'S been 11 years since this tragedy, and like with any mass shooting, a central question haunts what happened? Could anything have been done to prevent it? In the years since the Isla Vista attack, violence prevention experts have studied this case, and it's changed the way they think about mass shootings and the people who commit them, namely, how to intervene. There's a woman who's been contributing to this effort. Her name is Chin Roger. She's the mother of the shooter, and she's speaking publicly for the first time.

[Chin Roger]

I just want to share what I have discovered about my son's circumstances that led him to this horrific, indescribable crime. Right. I hope that my hindsight will be your foresight.

[Al Letson]

This episode is a rebroadcast of a show we originally aired last year. Mother Jones. Journalist Mark Fohlman picks up the story in Southern California.

[Mark Fohlman]

It's a crisp, bright day in Malibu. I'm arriving in an office along a busy stretch of the Pacific Coast Highway. Thanks for the rides. Drive safely. Stay blessed.

[Chin Roger]

Yeah, I'll just be out here picking.

[Joe Schmidt]

People up, getting where they gotta go.

[Dr. Steven White]

All right.

[Mark Fohlman]

I've been reporting on gun violence and how to prevent mass shootings for more than a decade. I've interviewed hundreds of people from all sides of this problem. Survivors, victims, parents, FBI agents, psychologists. Chin Roger has a perspective that I had never heard before. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. It's good to see you again.

[Chin Roger]

Good to see you. But I thought we were.

[Mark Fohlman]

I've been talking to Chin for more than two years about what happened with her son, Elliot. We've had dozens of conversations as I dug further into this tragedy.

[Chin Roger]

So we're just talking like we do. So nothing.

[Mark Fohlman]

Jin made the tough choice to become a student of her son's case today. For our meeting, she's brought some of her personal writings.

[Chin Roger]

Yes, I did. I found some notes here. My life as I knew it ended that day in 2014. I'll never get over this. What is the meaning now? On my life, there is no joy in anything that I do. I cannot escape this pain, this pain. Not just the pain of losing my son in this way, but of the suffering that his actions have caused so many. What is the purpose now? What can I do? It has to be something beyond this pain, or my life will not make any sense.

[Mark Fohlman]

In the aftermath of the shooting, she avoided the media frenzy. She feared speaking publicly would only hurt the victim's parents more.

[Chin Roger]

My son chose this, to do this, and their children did not. I'm always constantly thinking of the victim's family, who did not ask for this, what they must be going through. So that's why I feel being silent about this is what I've chose to be for many, many years.

[Mark Fohlman]

For a while, Chin wouldn't even turn on a TV unless it was set to a cooking channel. She couldn't stomach the news or anything that might remind her of what her son did. But eventually, she started researching mass shootings online and learning about violence prevention.

[Chin Roger]

As the years go by, I opened myself to listening to the news. When there is mass shooting, painfully, I listened to it. I want to know more. And I saw some similarities between the behavior and the circumstances.

[Mark Fohlman]

She started to recognize there were patterns of behavior that her son Elliot shared with other mass shooters.

[Chin Roger]

And in the beginning, it will always be, why did this person do it? It's the same. But then you find out that there are circumstances, there are behavior that came out.

[Mark Fohlman]

Chin realized she had more information about her son that could be valuable to share. That led her to violence prevention experts like Dr. Steven White, a psychologist.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

She was willing to talk with me about her experience, and what she said was, is, I want to help you by telling you what I knew about my son that you don't know or didn't know. I want to contribute to the knowledge base so that these things don't happen.

[Mark Fohlman]

Years before meeting Chin, Dr. White had written a deep Case study on what led to Elliot's attack. And he knew how much Eliot's parents had struggled to try and help their troubled son.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

His parents were, were good people, they were divorced. They were very concerned about him and tried to help him. And unfortunately this still happened. And so to live with that is a pretty terrible curse. How would you like to be the parent of a mass murderer? Try that one. It's horrible.

[Mark Fohlman]

Chin grew up in Malaysia. At age 17, she moved to England and would go on to train in health care. She sometimes worked as a nurse on movie sets productions like the Princess Bride and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Around that time, she met Peter Roger, a photographer and filmmaker. The two married and in 1991 they had Elliot. Four years later they had a daughter. And then the family moved to Los angeles. Elliot was 7 when his parents divorced. By that age, he was already having a hard time struggling with developmental disabilities.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

Let me just say that his personality, this combination of long term factors, there was probably some contribution from features associated with the autism spectrum, but I want to be very careful to point out that that was not the cause. There's never one cause. It's a number of factors that come together in a perfect storm at a certain time, in a certain context. He did have issues early on with social awkwardness and not being able to speak and being very anxious in social situations. And had a very hard time as he got into adolescence talking to girls, meeting girls.

[Chin Roger]

Elliot always have issues with making friends. So all the time his issues has been social, how to talk to anybody, not just girls. At the time, he was bullied extensively.

[Mark Fohlman]

Elliot's parents tried different schools. They got him special education, support, therapy and help from social workers. After high school, he dabbled in community college, but seemed stuck and unhappy when he told his parents he wanted to move 70 miles up the coast to enroll at Santa Barbara City College. They hoped it would expand his horizons. Chin arranged for further support there, hiring life coaches for him around his age to work on his social skills. Eliot lived in Isla Vista for more than two years. Despite the support, he grew more isolated, angry and desperate. But he was able to hide this inner torment. No one trying to help him, including his mom, had any sense that he was planning violence.

[Richard Martinez]

We begin this hour in Isla Vista, California.

[News Anchor]

The small college town near Santa Barbara continues to grieve this morning after a killing spree late Friday night. Authorities say 22 year old Elliot Roger.

[Richard Martinez]

Apparently took his own life after killing.

[News Anchor]

Six others and injuring the attack.

[Richard Martinez]

A form of revenge by an angry young man. One who was hell bent on blaming women for his own personal loneliness.

[Mark Fohlman]

Afterward, the media focused on a menacing video Elliot had posted online. He'd also written a long hate filled screed he called his life story, complaining about being rejected by girls. Extreme misogyny quickly became the explanation for what he'd done.

[Al Letson]

He was what's known as an incel, someone who is involuntarily celibate. Rogers is a hero to many young men like him.

[Mark Fohlman]

News stories highlighted comments he'd posted on incel forums. Online YouTubers racked up millions of views by reposting his rant in their amateur true crime videos. The narrative of Elliot as the Incel killer took on a life of its own, inspiring copycat attackers.

[Richard Martinez]

The Secret Service released a study this week on the growing terrorism threat of the so called INCEL movement. Followers of the Incel movement blame acts of violence on an inability to form relationships with women.

[Mark Fohlman]

The reality is more complicated.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

He didn't say, I'm starting a movement called the Incel movement. But he was on certain sites expressing these views. He unknowingly became this antihero for this group.

[Mark Fohlman]

After every mass shooting, the public wants to know why. The question of motive. Everyone wants a simple explanation. But concluding that this attack happened because Elliot said he hated women is too simple. Prevention experts are more focused on how shooters get to the point of attacking. There are patterns of behavior and warning signs they share.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

The more we look at these case studies, the more we can see what's consistent and also the variety or the differences among different shooters. We know there are certain risk factors or behavioral warning signs that are associated with eventual violence.

[Mark Fohlman]

I've been reporting on this topic for a long time and digging deep into these stories can be delicate for the victims who suffered and the risk of bringing the wrong kind of attention to the shooters, as many of them want. But this case has valuable lessons for prevention. What happened in the months leading up to the tragedy in Isla Vista, a trove of previously unreported case evidence and Chin's account of her experience all point to the missed chances to intervene.

[Chin Roger]

It's very, very difficult to see all of this when you are in it now. I can say that, but at that time, no way I would see that as a circumstances or as a behavior that is going to lead to mass shooting or even suicide. All these years, even now, I have never, never saw him as suicidal.

[Al Letson]

Elliot Roger didn't just suddenly snap. He was a troubled person who spiraled into crisis over a long period of time and planned what he would do. What were the missed warning signs?

[Joe Schmidt]

Right now I'm going on a little tour through Isla Vista on a Friday night.

[Al Letson]

Never before seen evidence brings new understanding to this tragedy. That's next on Reveal.

[News Anchor]

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[Missa]

Hey, this is Missa from Reveal. How many episodes have you listened to? 5, 500? And how many times have you donated? It's free to listen to these shows, but great journalism is anything but free to produce. It takes millions of dollars a year to make Reveal and the truth is it would not be possible if listeners did not support it. So please donate today. Just text the word give to 88857 REVEAL. That's 888-577-3832 or visit revealnews.org donate thank you.

[Al Letson]

From the center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, this is Reveal. I'm Al Letson. I want to tell you how story about a 17 year old high school kid named Brandon. He made a comment to a classmate while waiting for the school bus. Another student was listening. It scared her, so she told a teacher what Brandon said. Don't come to school on Friday. I'm coming back here with my dad's semiautomatic and I'm shooting up the place. He also bragged about having the code to his dad's gun safe. The teacher told the principal and the principal alerted the leader of the school district's threat assessment team. This team is a group of around a dozen people. Psychologists, counselors, administrators, cops. Every week they gather around a conference table at a district office to review cases. When they Heard about what Brandon said, the threat assessment team jumped into action. His comments suggested a plan with specific details about when and where a school resource officer was sent to his home to talk to him and his parents. They wanted to see if Brandon had access to firearms and he didn't. When the team psychologist met with him, Brandon told her he'd just been joking around. But she learned he'd been depressed and lonely, possibly suicidal. He was crying out for attention, and that's what the team gave him and his family, a wraparound strategy of counseling, after school activities and support. The threats stopped. His grades improved. He went on to graduate. But you've never heard Brandon's story because it didn't end up in tragedy. In the past few years, more and more school systems have started using this approach. 20 states now require threat assessment in public schools. Many private companies and community agencies are using it too. Usually these teams are led by a psychologist like Dr. Cheryl Lynn Lee.

[Richard Martinez]

There are a multitude of cases where there were individuals who were on the pathway to violence and they were stopped. We don't talk about them and so the public doesn't know that these interventions are being deployed and are working.

[Al Letson]

Dr. Lee helped start the first threat assessment team at the Santa Barbara Sheriff's office. It was formed in the years after the mass shooting in isla Vista where 22 year old Elliot Roger killed six people and wounded and traumatized many others.

[Richard Martinez]

There was a lot of information available and so had we had a threat assessment team, maybe there would have been some more information gathering that we would have done. And if we had, would there have been a different outcome?

[Al Letson]

Elliot had different counselors, therapists, life coaches. He was even visited by the sheriff's deputies a few weeks before his rampage. But there was no threat assessment team back then, no group of people who specialized in collecting and connecting these dots. Today we're revisiting an episode we brought you last year about how experts in this field have long studied and learned from this case. Journalist Mark Fohlman reports on the way it's helped them understand the patterns and psychology of mass shooters. What to look for and how to intervene when someone may be turning dangerous.

[Mark Fohlman]

Most mass shooters give off warning signs in the weeks and months before their attacks. These red flags include disturbing comments, abrupt changes in routine, a focus on grievances. Often there's evidence of suicidal thinking and a strong interest in guns. Elliot Rodger had a lot of these warning signs, but he was also really good at hiding them.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

One thing that stood out was this secrecy. A rather elaborate plan to kill other people and himself that that can remain hidden.

[Mark Fohlman]

That's Dr. Stephen White, the threat assessment expert who did the deep study of Elliot's case. Of all the cases he's examined over the past 40 years, this one stands out. Elliot left behind so much evidence showing how he got to the point of attacking. This includes his online activity, his purchases, the long screed he sent out and more.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

We studied those, plus he had a fairly large body of videos. So we look at that data as a way to understand more about why people do this and what to look for as they progress.

[Mark Fohlman]

He recorded a handful of videos on his phone in the final months and kept them mostly hidden until the end. There was also more. His mother, Chin Roger, received a box of Elliot's things after the sheriff's investigation. Inside were two handwritten diaries covering the last four years of his life. She shared those with me.

[Chin Roger]

I don't know whether there is a way to understand it because nobody can understand it, but it has definitely opened my eyes to certain behavior of his.

[Mark Fohlman]

The diaries were a hidden record of Elliot's descent into rage and despair. Things took a really dark turn about 10 months before the attack.

[Chin Roger]

The most consequential triggering event for him was when he was humiliated. The event of summer 2013.

[Mark Fohlman]

We can reconstruct what happened from his writings and from the sheriff's investigation. Elliot plans to make a last ditch effort to lose his virginity before turning 22 on a Saturday night in July. He gets up his nerve with a few shots of vodka and heads for the center of Isla Vista's party scene. The oceanfront houses along Del Playa Drive.

[Chin Roger]

He got intoxicated, stating that that gave him the courage to attend the weekend parties. That was his last hope to find a girlfriend. Hope dies loss. And when it does, all that's left is his feelings, a hate and revenge.

[Mark Fohlman]

Hope dies last. Around 11:30pm he walks into a crowded house party where hip hop is blasting and kids are playing beer pong. Feeling ignored, he goes back outside and up onto a wooden platform set up along the fence line. These makeshift structures are common in the front yards along Del Playa, a place for kids to hang out and drink while watching the action on the street. When a few others get up on the platform, Elliot starts to insult them.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

And apparently he was rather obnoxious and he did something to provoke other people being aggressive toward him and he tried to push some people off of this platform.

[Mark Fohlman]

Elliot tries to shove some girls off the roughly eight foot drop. He fails. A couple of guys intervene and he ends up landing hard on the pavement himself, cracking his ankle. Then he goes to another party nearby where he gets into another fight.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

And he got into trouble there and was called a bunch of names and got booted out. And he says to his neighbor who was there, I'm going to kill them all. I'm going to kill myself. And this was months before, and of course, this was learned about afterwards. But that kind of aggression was, in a way, practice or getting more comfortable. But it was completely ineffective on his part.

[Mark Fohlman]

Eventually, he makes his way home in the wee hours alone. He's bruised up, his left eye swollen, his ankle needs surgery. But worst of all for him is the shame.

[Chin Roger]

And in his journal, he actually wrote, I'm just reading from his journal. Humanity is so cruel. I'm beaten up, my leg broken. Not one girl helped me to my apartment. Not one single person called for help. Now, today I realized I fail to see what a huge triggering point there was for him. Public humiliation.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

He had a severe degree of narcissism. But it's the subgroup referred to as the shy narcissist, the person who has strong feelings of entitlement, but they're not in your face, because anytime they assert to try to engage, it immediately triggers these feelings of shame. So they withdraw, but they feel very hostile, very entitled, and blaming everybody else. And that's the red flags that we're looking for.

[Mark Fohlman]

Chin told me that when Elliot was recovering back home that August, he seemed to be doing much better. He agreed to see a therapist and looked happy when a childhood friend visited. But secretly, in his diary, he raged about the shame of getting beaten up. He called the party incident the final straw. Earlier entries show that he fantasized about violence ever since moving to Santa Barbara. Now he was on the path to making it real.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

You gotta plan it. You gotta figure out how you're gonna do it. And that preparation can be detected either behaviorally or in writings or what people say. They leak out their intention. 60 to 90% of attackers tell a third party or post something that says, I'm going to do this. Now, the problem with that, statistically, is a lot of people say things like that and nothing happens. So you got to sift through the haystack of threatening communications.

[Richard Martinez]

What we call it in our field is leakage, right? Information that somebody is intending on committing harm.

[Mark Fohlman]

That's Dr. Sherilyn Lee. Again, these signals can be subtle innuendo. Blame failed threats. School shooters often claim to be just joking when asked about their odd or disturbing comments. Leakage can also be more overt. Like when Elliot told his neighbor after the party he wanted to kill people.

[Richard Martinez]

With this case, it is rich with that sort of material. And had we had access to that material or knew the right questions to ask again, maybe there would have been a different outcome. We now know that most people who intend on committing acts of targeted violence, there's leakage.

[Mark Fohlman]

Elliot's videos had a lot of this. He never uploaded most of them. Investigators found the videos after the attack. This one was recorded five weeks before.

[Joe Schmidt]

Right now, I'm going on a little tour through Isla Vista on a Friday night. This is. This is when all the college parties happen. Look in there. There's a party happening right now.

[Mark Fohlman]

Elliot is driving down Del Playa Drive as the night gets busier. His phone is mounted on the dashboard, showing his view of the road.

[Joe Schmidt]

Every time I drive through this place, I am overcome with rage. While I've lived here for more than two years in loneliness, no one's ever invited me to parties.

[Mark Fohlman]

He slow rolls past a house lit up with string lights and one next door with a platform overlooking the street.

[Joe Schmidt]

Look. That's the house I got beat up at when I walked in on a party. That was about almost a year ago now.

[Richard Martinez]

Although this video in and of itself appears fairly benign, with other information that we're able to gather from these other resources, when you have a functioning threat assessment team, it might not seem so benign.

[Mark Fohlman]

Going back to where he was humiliated shows how it's still eating at him, fueling his rage and his plan. The location is about a block from where he would end his rampage.

[Richard Martinez]

There's no amount of information that's unnecessary, I think, when we're doing threat assessment, because it's ultimately looking at the totality of the information together.

[Mark Fohlman]

The video also shows planning, behavior, surveillance. According to the sheriff's investigation, the same day Elliot made this video, he'd been practicing at a shooting range. No one around him knew about these activities, but these are the kinds of warning signs A threat assessment team is more likely to uncover and understand. They know how to build rapport with someone like Elliot and would look into access to guns. About two weeks later, Elliot makes another video. He. He uploads this one to YouTube and calls it why do girls hate me so much?

[Joe Schmidt]

Hey, Elliot Rodger here. It's truly a beautiful day, but as I've always said, a beautiful environment is the darkest hell if you have to experience it all alone.

[Mark Fohlman]

He's standing by his parked car on a canyon road, gesturing at the scenery.

[Joe Schmidt]

I'VE been attending college in Santa Barbara for about two and a half years now. In those two and a half years, I've experienced nothing but loneliness and misery. And my problem is girls.

[Mark Fohlman]

There's nothing overtly threatening in this six minute video, nothing violent. Around the same time Elliot posts this video, he drops out of communication with Chin, which she tells me was very unlike him.

[Chin Roger]

As I've not heard from him for a few days. I Google his name with the words accident, fall hiking, as he often went for hikes alone. Dude, he likes the sunset. I fear that he fell off a cliff, lying injured down a ravine somewhere.

[Mark Fohlman]

She finds Elliot's video. She's never known him to post anything like this before.

[Chin Roger]

Came across a video of him by the roadside not making any threats, indicating, why don't you girls like me? I'm polite, I'm a gentleman.

[Mark Fohlman]

She's worried enough to call his social worker, who becomes concerned Elliot might want to harm himself. He says he'll call a crisis hotline in Santa Barbara right away. Though Chin didn't know it at the time, she took exactly the step that violence prevention experts hope for. She made the difficult choice to alert authorities about her son. That sent the sheriff's deputies to Elliott's apartment. Lt. Joe Schmidt was the lead homicide detective on the case.

[Dr. Steven White]

They contact the suspect at the front door and he presents normal. He said he was fine. He thought his mom was overreacting.

[Mark Fohlman]

Lieutenant Schmidt was not at the welfare check that day, but he has an encyclopedic knowledge of the case.

[Dr. Steven White]

And at some point, the deputies get mom on the phone and they say, hey, you know, we're here with your son. Everything seems to be fine. They have the suspect talk to his mom and that was it. There was no indicators. And we do these check the welfares all the time. And it just seemed like one of those very common. College student is new to the area. They're having a hard time connecting. You know, they're away from home. It was very consistent with the majority of those calls.

[Mark Fohlman]

The deputies didn't know that over the past 17 months, Elliot bought three handguns and a stockpile of ammunition at local gun shops and that it was all right there just beyond the apartment door. What are your thoughts about why they didn't ask to go inside?

[Dr. Steven White]

The goal is to get this person help. You know, unless there's an overt issue that shows there's a crime being manifested or they're going to hurt themselves. Really the priority is them, like, what can we do to help you? There was no indicators that the suspect was homicidal or suicidal.

[Mark Fohlman]

Experts I spoke with about this incident say the officers did what they were supposed to do. There was no legal basis for the deputies to go inside. After the welfare check, Chin felt relieved. Two and a half weeks later, she drives up to Santa Barbara to meet Elliot for. For their monthly dinner, along with Elliot's younger sister.

[Chin Roger]

That particular day didn't seem much different from all the other dinners that we had with him, except him eating more.

[Mark Fohlman]

Elliot orders an extra sushi roll, which is unusual for him. And Chin's glad he was skinny.

[Chin Roger]

I was happy he was eating more. To me, he's doing better. Right. And so you begin to relax.

[Mark Fohlman]

Since the welfare check, Elliot had been texting and talking with Chin. He'd told her his spring classes were finishing up well. In truth, he'd dropped out of school. What Chin was seeing is something threat assessment experts call unexpected. Brightening a better mood, a bigger appetite. Elliot was calm because he was finally ready to act. At the time, Chin had no way of knowing. These were some of the last in a long trail of warning signs.

[Chin Roger]

I did not see that. Eating more, even binge eating as a sign, a behavior change. But really, he's already made a plan. That's why he feels free. He feels happy, you know? Right. But we don't see that.

[Mark Fohlman]

Five days later, he drove to the beach, parked, and started recording again.

[Joe Schmidt]

Well, this is my last video. It all has to come to this.

[Mark Fohlman]

He looks directly into the camera and announces what he'd been planning for at least a year. No one would see it until it was too late.

[Joe Schmidt]

Tomorrow is the day of retribution.

[Mark Fohlman]

There's a common myth about mass shooters that they just snap one day. That their actions can't really be explained. That's untrue. And you can see it in the way this attack played out. It's March of 2024, and I'm riding through Isla Vista with Lieutenant Joe Schmidt in his unmarked SUV. We're retracing the day of the massacre. A warning for listeners. This next part is disturbing, but the details are important. Threat assessment experts have studied what Elliot did that day. Those behavioral patterns also help them understand what leads up to these attacks.

[Dr. Steven White]

This is the suspect's apartment complex. You can see his apartment from this corner of the building.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

Building.

[Dr. Steven White]

Would you like to get out here?

[Mark Fohlman]

Yeah, let's do that. We're standing outside the gated courtyard of the two story complex where Elliot lived with two roommates, Weihan Wang and Chang Hong.

[Dr. Steven White]

So that's where the Suspect murdered his two roommates and then a third victim who was a friend of the roommates.

[Mark Fohlman]

Elliot had complained about their loud video games and even called the police four months before the attack, saying one of them stole candles from him. He used a knife to kill Wang and then Hong as he returned from class. Then he killed George Chen, a friend of theirs who'd come over around dinner time, stabbing each victim more times than the last.

[Dr. Steven White]

The suspect was escalating his level of violence with each victim, almost like he was becoming more confident and more empowered to just inflict more damage.

[Mark Fohlman]

Elliot had planned it out carefully. Investigators found evidence suggesting he had rehearsed by stabbing pillows and slashing at the sheets on his bed. Back in the suv, we head a few blocks over to the commercial center of town, where Elliot went at 7:30 that evening with all the bodies still.

[Dr. Steven White]

In the apartment, he takes a shower, changes clothes and drives to the Starbucks. Gets a triple vanilla latte.

[Mark Fohlman]

At the Starbucks, he starts texting with his mom. Chin had asked him earlier in the day to call when he was finished with his classes. Now he messages her back and says he'll call her tomorrow when he's in his car. She replies, why not today? He tells her he feels like relaxing, that he's just finished with his semester. Congrats, she says. He tells her thanks.

[Dr. Steven White]

That was the only video surveillance we had of him. We got him purchasing the coffee and he's very calm with when he makes the purchase. Calmly walks out and he goes back to his apartment.

[Mark Fohlman]

In the aftermath, news reports labeled him psychotic, but experts found he was not. Planning and carrying out a mass shooting requires organized thinking, preparation. This was a long developed plan, and it was just starting. The sheriff's report shows that just after 9pm Elliot uploads his final video to YouTube. He also sends out an email to nearly three dozen people, including his parents, counselors, and the apartment manager. It contains a screed detailing what he calls his life story. 137 pages about his despair, his rage against women, and his plans to kill. Then he drives a few blocks in his black BMW and parks. He'd been surveilling a sorority house.

[Dr. Steven White]

So the suspect arrives. He's got a handgun, multiple rounds of ammunition strapped to his waist, and a fanny pack. And he also has a gallon of gas. What we he didn't anticipate was the the fact that the door is going to be locked.

[Mark Fohlman]

He tries the handle, then starts banging on the door. No one answers. He leaves the gas can at the door and goes back to his car, where he spots three young women on the street. Bianca De Koch, Katherine Cooper, and Veronica Weiss.

[Dr. Steven White]

The suspect pulls up alongside of them. He fires multiple rounds at all three. All three are hit.

[Mark Fohlman]

And we have three down.

[Joe Schmidt]

I need three ambulances here.

[Mark Fohlman]

The bullets severely injure Bianca and kill her two friends, Catherine and Veronica. Elliot didn't know them. He wanted to kill any women he could. Shots fired. Shots fired. Next, Elliot drives a few blocks to a deli mart and fires at people who flee inside, killing student Christopher Martinez.

[Dr. Steven White]

Okay, we got another gunshot.

[Mark Fohlman]

He speeds off toward his next target, Del Playa Drive, ramming people with his car and firing more shots along the way. About eight minutes into the spree, as police close in, he does what many mass shooters do. Before they can be caught, witnesses hear one last shot. The BMW swerves and smashes into a parked car.

[Dr. Steven White]

When they find the suspect, he's got a clear gunshot wound in his head. And then that's where it all ends.

[News Anchor]

Thousands of UC Santa Barbara students and.

[Al Letson]

Members of the community remembering the six friends and fellow students killed in a.

[News Anchor]

Violent rampage that left many others injured.

[Richard Martinez]

She was my best friend and like.

[Missa]

A sister in me and my sister, and I'm gonna miss her dearly. She's always gonna be in our hearts.

[Chin Roger]

When will this insanity stop? When will enough people say, stop this madness? We don't have to live like this. Too many have died. We should say to ourselves, not one more.

[Mark Fohlman]

The majority of mass shooters are people who have decided to end their own lives by taking others with them, whether they justify that with hatred of women or other kinds of extremist thought. In the aftermath, the media quickly republished Elliot's screed, calling it his manifesto. He was depicted online as the leader of a violent incel revolution, a misleading narrative that continues today. Elliot did post comments on fringe incel websites, but a lot of his writing and comments suggest he did not identify as an incel or see himself as their leader. Yet to this day, copycat attackers praise him and media coverage keeps the cycle going. Do you think that it's accurate to say that incel ideology is what caused Elliot Rodger to do what he did?

[Richard Martinez]

No, I don't think incel ideology in and of itself caused him to do what he did. I think maybe that helped him justify the violence or helped him identify the victims.

[Mark Fohlman]

Dr. Lee points to how being in a party town like Isla Vista amplified his suicidal thinking.

[Richard Martinez]

If his grievance is he can't connect with people and he's constantly isolated, he's living in that environment, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, he was.

[Mark Fohlman]

Surrounded by what he wanted but believed he could never have.

[Richard Martinez]

In upwards of 95% of the cases we've worked, the persons are not well connected socially and they're often alone and they often have thoughts of killing themselves.

[Mark Fohlman]

That's what this problem is. The majority of mass shootings are driven by suicide, no matter what ideology they're wrapped in.

[Chin Roger]

I do not think my son wanted. He wanted to be famous. He did not want to be a leader of any group. In the end, he was driven by his perceived long suffering. And I think at that late stage, his perception of others, even his family, disappeared. What was left with himself, with his own hopelessness, rage and revenge?

[Richard Martinez]

When we come back, the Elliot Rodger case was the impetus for gun violence restraining orders in this state.

[Al Letson]

How what happened in Isla Vista has changed violence prevention in California and across the country. You're listening to REVEAL from the center for Investigative Reporting and prx. This is reveal. I'm Al Letson. Inside the Santa Barbara Sheriff's training facility, framed photos and plaques line the front hallway. One photo shows a black BMW wrecked on a street dotted with palm trees. Two officers are looking over it. The driver's door is open, an airbag ballooning out of the side. The photo is a reminder of an event that shook this community. Lt. Joe Schmidt was the lead homicide detective on the case.

[Dr. Steven White]

Sometimes there are certain cases we investigate that maybe touch our soul a little bit more, and this was definitely one of them.

[Al Letson]

In the years since the violent rampage more than a decade ago, the sheriff's office has built a program to try and stop the next tragedy before it happens. That's what brings Mother Jones journalist Mark Fohlman here today to learn more about how the case led to change.

[Mark Fohlman]

What would you say were the key lessons learned from the Elliot Rodger case in terms of violence prevention and threat assessment?

[Dr. Steven White]

The quicker the intervention, the higher likelihood of lives being saved. I would rather spend the time investigating these things that end up being nothing than not doing it and then having that one slip away.

[Mark Fohlman]

Before the rampage, sheriff's deputies went to Elliot Rogers apartment apartment for the welfare check. But they didn't run a records check for guns or go inside. Let's say there's a similar situation today. How would that be handled?

[Dr. Steven White]

Now I'll have dispatch check them and see if they have weapons issued to them. Matter of fact, when I promoted to Sergeant In 2016, my first day here was a check the welfare. Almost identical circumstances and I thought Well, I know how these have gone down in the past, but because of what I know from 2014, and I even asked him consent to search his apartment, which I did, and found nothing.

[Mark Fohlman]

It wasn't just law enforcement rethinking how these situations could have been handled differently in the aftermath. The intense media coverage lasted for weeks. Grieving father Richard Martinez joined other advocates in pressuring California lawmakers to tighten gun laws.

[Dr. Steven White]

Chris Martinez's father, Chris, was a victim of the shooting at the Isla Vista Deli. His father was very active in getting this additional tool approved, and he lobbied in Sacramento to get it done.

[Mark Fohlman]

Four months later, in September 2014, California passed a law designed to keep guns away from people who might be at risk of violence. It created what's called a gun violence restraining order, also known as a red flag law. A judge decides if a person is too dangerous to have firearms based on evidence of erratic behavior, threats, concerns about suicide.

[Dr. Steven White]

The gun violence restraining Order, that's an ability for law enforcement or family to, if they have a concern about somebody being a potential threat, it's created a mechanism or a tool for law enforcement to seize weapons.

[Mark Fohlman]

California's red flag law was one of the first in the country. The policy began to spread nationally, especially after the Parkland High school massacre in 2018. Today, there are red flag laws in 22 states and Washington, D.C. the policy has strong bipartisan voter support, though it still faces fierce opposition from conservative politicians. Research shows these laws are effective for preventing suicide and mass shootings. A study of more than 200 red flag cases included California shows that the law works. None of the people who lost access to guns went on to commit a shooting. The law has been essential to Dr. Sherilyn Lee's team at the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Office.

[Richard Martinez]

This has been a key tool in a lot of, if not most of the threat assessments and threat management cases that we've worked in. There was an individual a couple years ago, and he sent a text telling all of his friends that he was suicidal.

[Mark Fohlman]

Someone contacted Dr. Lee's team to alert them, and they moved quickly to step in.

[Richard Martinez]

He had 16 guns, two of which were buried in the backyard. He was sewing armored plating into the driver's side and passenger side of his vehicle. So this is somebody that wanted to do some damage. And so law enforcement had the ability to intervene before he could commit his carnage. And this is when we found all the guns and so on and so forth. The they were all legally owned. We decided to place the individual on a psychiatric hold because clearly he wasn't well and needed some help.

[Mark Fohlman]

The red flag law allowed the threat team to temporarily take away the guns. Dr. Lee tells me about another case she's currently handling that involves a middle schooler who had told a teacher he was feeling suicidal without revealing his identity. She shows me some photos from the case file. Is this the 12 year old? Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Martinez]

These are the images that I spoke about. The most fascinating thing to me from a psychologist perspective.

[Mark Fohlman]

We're looking at papers from his school folder. There are drawings of a person pointing a gun, dead bodies and blood he'd written in big bold letters, Murder is on my mind. These papers are mixed in with homework and a class schedule.

[Richard Martinez]

PE bio, English, Spanish, school shooting and then worksheets. That's ambivalence in my mind. He's not fully committed. We have opportunity there.

[Mark Fohlman]

Threat assessment teams don't just look for warning signs. They also look for what they call positive inhibitors. Things in someone's life that can be used to support them.

[Richard Martinez]

Yes, he's planning a school shooting, but he's also planning on turning in his homework.

[Mark Fohlman]

Two months later, Dr. Lee tells me the student is doing better. But across the nation, younger and younger kids are making threats and even committing attacks. A six year old child shot his first grade teacher in Virginia in 2023. This disturbing trend underscores why early intervention is so important. I've looked at many cases where teams figured out what was driving people into crisis and connected with them successfully in schools, in workplaces and elsewhere. No one can undo all the suffering from the 2014 attack in Isla Vista, not for the victims or their families, and not for the killer's mother. Like all suicidal mass shootings, Elliot Rodger lacked hope. The importance of having hope echoes in how his mother, Chin, is finding her path forward.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

Question.

[Mark Fohlman]

In terms of what Chin Roger has done to will it, do you think it has benefit to the public in terms of raising more awareness about these kinds of behaviors or how parents or friends should react to someone that's concerning them?

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

I think it does have value because, I mean, her story is a terrible one to have to tell, but she can make people think.

[Mark Fohlman]

Dr. Steven White is the psychologist you heard from earlier. He's the foremost expert on the Elliot Rodger case. Chin's experience is beneficial to him and other prevention experts because of the level of detail that she has shared about her son's slide into despair and violence.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

I have a lot of respect for her and parents like her who want to do something to contribute. What can I do? So it doesn't happen or happens less often. And that's admirable. That's meaningful.

[Mark Fohlman]

In 2022, Chin was invited to give a keynote speech to more than a thousand people at a national threat assessment conference in California.

[Dr. Sherilyn Lee]

And it was a very powerful talk and very respectfully received. It was hard for her, but she has done something with this to get some good out of this terrible event.

[Mark Fohlman]

In the audience were psychologists, counselors, police, FBI agents, and other practitioners. It was the first time she would stand on a stage and tell her story. It wouldn't be the last.

[Chin Roger]

It doesn't get any easier. Thank you for your gracious invitation.

[Mark Fohlman]

Since then, she's continued to speak at threat assessment trainings around the country.

[Chin Roger]

So that when you're out there talking to parents, when you're out there talking to a young man on the same pathway, you have more insights on your mission to stop targeted fight guidance. I believe that if a robust transfer program or team were in place, then the outcome would have been very different if I.

[Mark Fohlman]

And all the more training conferences are ahead on Jin's calendar. And she says the reception she's gotten at her talks has helped her heal. In the past, when she would meet someone and they asked if she had kids, she wouldn't even say she had a son. But now when someone asks her, she finds herself answering differently. She says she has a son and that she lost him in a tragedy.

[Chin Roger]

I think one of the most important thing I want to get through is that if you are an individual with emotional social issues contemplating suicide or this pathway, if you're a parent, individual around this person, calls someone, tell someone someone, do not be alone in it. I also said, I wish that the nightmare that I'm living, that the victims and the families are living, these nightmares are real. And these nightmares could be your reality any day. So we must work harder in coming together and try and prevent this horrific act from happening again and again.

[Mark Fohlman]

Decades of threat assessment research point to a fundamental truth. People who end up doing what Elliot Rodger did feel profoundly alone. And part of them doesn't want to do it. They need help. And with the growth of this field nationally, more of them may now get that help before it's too late.

[Al Letson]

That story was reported by Mark Fohlman, national affairs editor at Mother Jones magazine. He's also the author of the book Trigger Inside the Mission to Stop Mass Shootings in America. There's so much more to this investigation that you can find in Mark's cover story on motherjones.com. if you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide. Help is available. Call or text 988 to reach the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Our lead producer for this week's show is Michael is Schiller. Jenny Kostas edited the show. Special thanks to James west for additional field production and to Mother Jones editor Jeremy Shulman. This week's episode was fact checked by Maggie D. Duffy with support from Reveal's Nikki Frick. Victoria Baranetsky is our General Counsel. Our production managers are Steven Rascone and Zulema Cobb. Score and sound design by the dynamic duo Jay Breezy, Mr. Jim Briggs and Fernando My Man Yo Arudo. Our interim executive producers are Brett Myers and Taki Telenides. Our theme music is by Camarado Lightning. Support for Reveals provided by the Riva and David Logan foundation, the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family foundation, the Robert Wood Johnson foundation, the park foundation, the Schmidt Family foundation and the Helman Foundation. Support for Reveal is also provided by you our listeners. We are a co production of the center for Investigative Reporting and prx. I'm Al Edson and remember there is always more to the story.

[Mark Fohlman]

From PRX.