The EEOC’s Identity Crisis

Summary

Reveal Podcast Summary: "The EEOC’s Identity Crisis"

Released on May 31, 2025 by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The EEOC’s Identity Crisis," host Al Edson delves into the tumultuous changes within the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) under the Trump administration. The episode explores how executive orders aimed at dismantling diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives have reshaped the agency's mission, leading to significant repercussions for LGBTQ+ protections and broader civil rights enforcement.

Background: Trump Administration’s Overhaul of Federal Agencies

The story begins in January when President Donald Trump initiated a sweeping overhaul of the federal government, appointing Elon Musk to lead the Department of Government Efficiency. Musk's mandate was to scrutinize and eliminate government programs that didn't align with Trump's MAGA 2.0 vision, particularly targeting DEI initiatives.

Al Edson (00:00-00:45): "President Donald Trump began his mission to overhaul the federal government and brought in Elon Musk to scour government databases and slash line items that didn't align with Trump's vision for MAGA 2.0."

Journalistic Investigation into the EEOC

Journalist Abby Vasoulis from Mother Jones investigates the unexpected focus on the EEOC—a federal agency tasked with addressing workplace discrimination—amidst the broader narrative dominated by Elon Musk and his public persona.

Karen Ortiz (01:17-02:04): "I was expecting people from like the State Department or USAID, but I was surprised that a lot of them were from the EEOC or the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission."

Leadership under Andrea Lucas

Andrea Lucas, a prominent figure among conservative groups, took the helm of the EEOC, implementing policies mirroring Trump's Executive Order 14168, titled "Defending Women from Gender Ideology, Extremism, and Restoring Biological Truth." Under her leadership, the EEOC began halting investigations into discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity, effectively undermining protections for LGBTQ+ individuals.

Andrea Lucas (02:25-02:39): "Biological sex is real and it matters, and it's immutable and it's binary."

Internal Resistance and Retaliation

Jocelyn Samuels, a former EEOC commissioner and civil rights attorney, vehemently opposed the new directives. Her public rebuke of the executive order led to her immediate dismissal.

Jocelyn Samuels (07:31-07:37): "It directly conflicts with authoritative Supreme Court precedent."

Six days after criticizing the executive order, Samuels received a termination email from Trent Morse, the Trump administration’s deputy director of White House personnel.

Jocelyn Samuels (08:28-08:52): "She was fired, effective immediately."

Impact on EEOC Staff and Cases

The abrupt changes left EEOC employees in a state of uncertainty, fearing for the agency's ability to protect LGBTQ+ workers. Karen Ortiz, an administrative judge at the EEOC's New York office, witnessed a rapid shift in policy application, where DEI-related discrimination claims were suppressed.

Karen Ortiz (09:14-09:58): "Workers at the EEOC were starting to see changes on their computers, like when they tried to label a complaint as related to sexual orientation or gender identity. The word 'paused' appeared in capital letters."

Case Studies: Dylan Bringle and Jo Ellis

The episode highlights personal stories illustrating the real-world consequences of the EEOC's policy shifts:

• Dylan Bringle: A trans individual who faced workplace discrimination but had their EEOC case abruptly dismissed after the administration's new policies took effect.

  Dylan Bringle (17:22-20:17): "It makes me feel that at any point, somebody can just kind of do something that hurts me physically, not just mentally or emotionally."

• Jo Ellis: A trans woman and military pilot falsely accused of being responsible for a helicopter crash due to her gender identity, leading to severe harassment and loss of her military position.

  Jo Ellis (37:52-40:31): "I want to fight. I want to go out on my feet, and I want to speak up for those that can't."

Supreme Court Ruling and Its Aftermath

A pivotal moment occurred in June 2023 when the Supreme Court, in a 6-3 decision, ruled that using race as a factor in university admissions was unconstitutional. This decision, spearheaded by Justice Neil Gorsuch, significantly empowered the anti-DEI movement, leading to the dismantling of DEI programs across federal agencies.

Al Edson (26:27-27:22): "The Supreme Court ruled that race-based admissions policies are unconstitutional... overturning 45 years of legal precedent."

Attacks on Higher Education Institutions

The Trump administration targeted prestigious universities like Columbia and Harvard, cutting millions in federal funding over alleged DEI and anti-Semitism issues. In response, universities formed a Mutual Defense Compact to collaboratively defend against these attacks.

Columbia University and Harvard University (42:00-42:52): Faced with severe funding cuts, both institutions initiated legal battles against the administration, deeming the actions unconstitutional and illegal.

Formation of the Mutual Defense Compact

Professors Daveed Salas de la Cruz and Paul Boxer from Rutgers University spearheaded the creation of a mutual defense compact among over 40 universities. This coalition aims to support each other legally and academically against federal attempts to undermine DEI initiatives.

Daveed Salas de la Cruz (43:45-44:15): "We now have 14 out of the 18 Big Ten schools... over 40 by this time."

Legal and Social Ramifications

Legal experts like Michael Yelnoski warn that conflating all DEI programs poses a threat to legitimate anti-discrimination efforts. The episode underscores the broader societal implications of dismantling DEI, including increased discrimination and erosion of civil rights protections.

Michael Yelnoski (36:27-37:08): "Grouping all diversity programs together endangers essential and lawful practices that are helping to end discrimination."

Conclusion: The Ongoing Struggle

"The EEOC’s Identity Crisis" paints a comprehensive picture of the systemic efforts to roll back civil rights protections in the workplace and higher education. Through personal testimonies, expert insights, and detailed reporting, the episode highlights the significant challenges faced by federal employees, marginalized communities, and educational institutions in the wake of aggressive anti-DEI policies.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Abby Vasoulis (09:58): "I would say it wasn't a trickle. It was like, you know, taking one of those super soakers like the kids use at summertime."

• Karen Ortiz (13:10-14:24): "She tells Lucas she's not fit to be chair, much less hold a license to practice law. That her orders are unethical attempts to target private citizens... PS Happy Black History Month."

• Jo Ellis (37:52-40:31): "I want to fight. I want to go out on my feet, and I want to speak up for those that can't."

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Production Credits

Reporter: Abby Vasoulis (Mother Jones)
Host: Al Edson
Lead Producer: Anya Schulz
Contributors: Michael Montgomery, Cynthia Rodriguez, Dan Schulman, Alex Wein, Serena Lynn, Ruth Marai
Legal Review: Victoria Baranetsky
Support: Riva and David Logan Foundation, John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, Jonathan Logan Family Foundation, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, Park Foundation, Smith Family Foundation, Hellman Foundation, and listeners.

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This episode of "Reveal" offers a critical examination of how political agendas can reshape federal agencies and undermine long-standing civil rights protections, emphasizing the resilience and pushback from affected individuals and institutions.

Transcript

[Al Edson]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. From the center for Investigative Reporting and prx, this is Reveal. I'm Al Letsie. Let me take you back to January, when President Donald Trump began his mission to overhaul the federal government and brought in Elon Musk to scour government databases and slash line items that didn't align with Trump's vision for MAGA 2.0. Musk, the world's richest man with billions.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Of dollars in federal contracts, has been given enormous power.

[Al Edson]

His Department of Government Efficiency already accessing at least 15 agencies. It was a huge story, and journalists from all sorts of news outlets set out find federal workers. They wanted to know which jobs and programs were being eliminated and get firsthand accounts of which websites were being scrubbed in the name of ending wokeness. Mother Jones national politics reporter Abby Vasoulis was one of those journalists searching for sources.

[Karen Ortiz]

There are so many federal workers, so I just put posts on LinkedIn x Blue sky looking for federal workers who might be willing to talk to me anonymously or on background. I was expecting people from like the State Department or usaid, but I was surprised that a lot of them were from the EEOC or the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It's this sort of small niche government agency that deals with workplace discrimination complaints. But it was not what I was expecting. It felt like most of the TV reports I was seeing were related to Elon Musk and Doge. But the people from the EEOC weren't reaching out to me about that. They wanted to talk about something entirely different.

[Al Edson]

Workers were complaining to Abby about their new boss, Andrea Lucas. They said she was making drastic changes that didn't make sense. Lucas isn't exactly a household name, but she's a popular figure among conservative groups, and she's made several public speaking appearances, like this one at a Federalist Society convention last November.

[Karen Ortiz]

Biological sex is real and it matters, and it's immutable and it's binary. That's the foundation on which we then.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Proceed to have the various civil rights laws that have been enacted over the last 60 years.

[Al Edson]

Lucas View is like a carbon copy of Trump's Executive Order 141 68. It has a long, ominous sounding name, defending women from gender ideology, extremism, and restoring biological truth. To the federal government.

[Karen Ortiz]

Under Andrea Lucas leadership, the staff at the EEOC were told to pause any investigations they were in the middle of conducting that had to do with discrimination based on someone's sexual orientation or their gender identity. Andrea Lucas was telling the agency to comply with Trump's executive order in this way. So let's say investigators were looking into a claim of someone being called a homophobic slur. The the workers at the EEOC were essentially just told to put their pens down. This isn't a case that they could be looking into at the moment. And they kind of just sat in limbo.

[Al Edson]

The EEOC is supposed to protect people from workplace discrimination. But these employees felt like gay and trans people were now at risk, like the agency had stopped protecting them. And it wasn't just mid level staff who were concerned. Senior leadership was too. The EEOC is generally run by five commissioners. Abby wanted to figure out what was going on, so she sought one of them out. Here's Abby.

[Karen Ortiz]

We are about to interview Jocelyn Samuels, who was fired by the Trump administration. I think this is the right house. I started talking to Jocelyn in late January. After a few phone calls, she agreed to an in person interview. So in April, I went to her house. It was on a quiet tree lined street in Bethesda, Maryland. It's about a half hour drive from downtown D.C. hello.

[Al Edson]

Hi.

[Karen Ortiz]

Come on in. Thank you.

[Al Edson]

Hello.

[Karen Ortiz]

Come on in.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Hi.

[Al Edson]

Who is this?

[Karen Ortiz]

Jocelyn greeted me at the door with her two small, fluffy dogs, Brady and Mr. Stanley Biscuit.

[Al Edson]

They would like attention. Hopefully they will behave and not do.

[Karen Ortiz]

Their usual cranky barking. Jocelyn is a petite woman with chestnut colored hair. Her home was really colorful. It was full of mismatched rugs and handmade pottery. There were some vintage lamps and knickknacks she's found at craft fairs or estate sales over the years. Would you like us to take our shoes off?

[Al Edson]

Entirely up to you. My house is informal and not that clean.

[Karen Ortiz]

Great. We sit down in the living room and start talking about Jocelyn's long career, both as a civil rights attorney and as a federal employee.

[Al Edson]

Well, I have been so fortunate in my career. I've spent the last 35 years doing civil rights enforcement in the government and in nonprofits.

[Karen Ortiz]

Under President Obama, Jocelyn led the civil Rights division at the Department of Justice, where she worked to solidify the rights of LGBTQ people. At the time, gay and trans people were not a protected class. It left them vulnerable to discrimination. But for Jocelyn, it was clear the LGBTQ community should be protected. So when Trump nominated her to the EEOC in 2020. She was on a mission to ensure.

[Al Edson]

That protections for the LGBTQI community were enforced with the same vigor and commitment to the rule of that all of the other protections against discrimination were, and the fact that it was a Trump.

[Karen Ortiz]

Nomination that got me there, that was the price of admission at the eeoc. She was able to fight for queer people because just four months before Jocelyn became a commissioner, the Supreme Court issued a groundbreaking ruling.

[Al Edson]

The Supreme Court has ruled that LGBT Americans are protected by the anti discrimination laws of this country. At their worst, they cannot be fired or otherwise discriminated against at work simply because they are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It is hard to overstate the significance of this, especially since it is.

[Karen Ortiz]

The 6:3 decision was written by Justice Neil Gorsuch, a Trump appointee. After the decision, the EEOC began to receive thousands of complaints each year from gay and trans people. Jocelyn said the discrimination they faced was especially egregious. So when the President started to unravel these rights and Andrea Lucas began to enforce his executive order that no longer protects trans people, Jocelyn was horrified.

[Al Edson]

It directly conflicts with authoritative Supreme Court precedent.

[Karen Ortiz]

A day after the executive order was signed, Jocelyn and two other commissioners made their own public statement. Social media. They said Trump's agenda did not make legal sense, that it was a step backwards and undermined the EEOC's goals. Her opposition did not sit well with Trump. Six days later, she got a concerning message.

[Al Edson]

I was actually in bed reading a.

[Karen Ortiz]

Novel.

[Al Edson]

At 10:30 at night when I.

[Karen Ortiz]

Got a text from one of my colleagues that said, have you read your email?

[Al Edson]

And I thought, no. So I came downstairs to my computer at maybe 10:45 and confronted an email.

[Karen Ortiz]

From Trent Morse, that's Trump's deputy director of White House personnel. The email addressed Jocelyn by her first name and said.

[Al Edson]

Please see below for a letter from President Trump.

[Karen Ortiz]

Jocelyn screamed at her desk. She was fired, effective immediately.

[Al Edson]

It was shocking.

[Karen Ortiz]

Even though I had understood the theoretical.

[Al Edson]

Possibility that I would be fired, the fact that it said that my termination would take effect within the next hour was so jarring.

[Karen Ortiz]

The letter said that Jocelyn was fired for supporting radical protections for LGBTQ people and for her rebuke of Trump's executive order on trans and non binary people. Trump also accused Jocelyn of supporting what he called racist DEI policies. Jocelyn was out. She had to pack up her things. The next day, I kept hearing from more EEOC staffers. They were worried about what they were seeing, but they were also afraid to speak out and wanted to remain anonymous with One exception. What kind of changes did you see trickle in after the inauguration, and how quickly did they come?

[Abby Vasoulis]

I would say it wasn't a trickle. It was like, you know, taking one of those super soakers like the kids use at summertime. We're adults and just super soaking all over the law.

[Karen Ortiz]

Karen Ortiz is an administrative judge at the EEOC's New York office, which means she hears cases that involve discrimination against federal employees. She's been at the job for nearly seven years, and Karen says that the moment Trump was elected, she knew things were going to get ugly. She says she tried to warn her colleagues and even broke down in tears at a staff meeting before the inauguration.

[Abby Vasoulis]

And then a few weeks in, a colleague of mine said, now I know why you were crying. And I was like, you should have read Project 2025. They laid it all out.

[Karen Ortiz]

Workers at the EEOC were starting to see changes on their computers, like when they tried to label a complaint as related to sexual orientation or gender identity. The word paused appeared in capital letters. Meanwhile, a label for dei, motivated discrimination was suddenly added.

[Abby Vasoulis]

DEI isn't a protected category. It actually makes no sense.

[Karen Ortiz]

What Karen means is the Civil Rights act protects people from discrimination based on race, color, sex, national origin, and religion. There is no DEI protection, and Karen says there doesn't need to be, because white people are already protected under the race and color categories. Karen says they already file claims. She's handled some of them.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I've actually made findings in favor of folks, so we already do that.

[Karen Ortiz]

Karen blames the agency's new leader, Andrea Lucas, who has made DEI complaints a priority. There's now a whole section on the EEOC website devoted to what to do if you think you're a victim of dei.

[Abby Vasoulis]

She wants it to be a grievance apparatus for white, straight, Christian people. Andrea Lucas went to a very good law school, and she knows the law. I just chafe every time she sends an email out because I know it's going to be ridiculous and not only against the mission of the eeoc, but against actual regulatory and Supreme Court holdings.

[Karen Ortiz]

It was one of Lucas's press releases that was Karen's breaking point. In it, Lucas wrote that there are only two biological sexes and that it's not harassment to repeatedly call someone by the wrong pronoun.

[Abby Vasoulis]

This is crazy. I have to say something. So I emailed my own office.

[Karen Ortiz]

Karen told her colleagues at the New York District Office that they should ignore the new mandates coming in from the top because they're illegal. Then an hour or so later, Karen says the email disappeared. It was removed from her colleagues inboxes and it was also gone from her scent box.

[Abby Vasoulis]

And I was like, oh, they're trying to silence us. And then the next morning I woke up and on my way to the office I was like, I have to. I have to send an agency wide email and I need to call out the chair.

[Karen Ortiz]

Karen was about to write to Andrea Lucas directly and CC over 2000 people, the entire EEOC staff. Karen knew she could get fired or reprimanded, but she told me she didn't care. She took a deep breath and hit send.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Good morning, Andrea. Apparently no one in leadership is willing to ring the alarm bell, so it falls upon one of us to do it. The tactics you are employing and actions you have taken in lockstep with this new administration are illegal and unconstitutional.

[Karen Ortiz]

She tells Lucas she's not fit to be chair, much less hold a license to practice law. That her orders are unethical attempts to target private citizens.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I will not compromise my ethics and my duty to uphold the law. I will not cower to bullying and intimidation.

[Karen Ortiz]

Karen kept going and suggested Lucas resign.

[Abby Vasoulis]

PS Happy Black History Month. Sincerely, Karen M. Ortiz.

[Karen Ortiz]

Why did you decide to end it on Happy Black History Month?

[Abby Vasoulis]

It was my way of saying your take on DEI is bullshit. Pardon my French. It's also a hat tip to the black community who now I'm going to get emotional. Fought so hard for civil rights that I benefit from. I stand on their shoulders. So yes, I was going to acknowledge that.

[Karen Ortiz]

Karen's email made quite a stir. Initially, her email access was revoked. It took several days before she got it back. We requested an interview with Andrea Lucas twice, but never got a response. We also sent the EEOC a thorough list of questions about Karen's letter and all the changes happening. We got a single paragraph back. Lucas said that, quote, the EEOC under my leadership is going to pursue common sense civil rights enforcement that rejects identity politics. She emphasized that all Americans know that biological sex is binary and that our civil rights laws protect individual rights, not group interests. Lastly, Lucas added that no gaslighting by the liberal media can change these realities. While Lucas didn't agree to talk to me, I kept talking to workers on the inside. Word around the EEOC was that the agency wasn't just planning to pause gender identity investigations. They were going to drop any active lawsuits about trans people. A worker told me there were seven cases I should keep an eye on. And sure enough, within a few weeks, the EEOC filed motions to dismiss all seven gender Identity cases. This was a big deal. The EEOC receives more than 80,000 discrimination complaints a year. It can only take a few hundred to court. These are generally strong cases. The motions cited Trump's executive order as the sole reason for dismissal. These cases represented a total of 14 plaintiffs across the country. An employee of an airport pizza shop who said her boss outed her as trans and taunted her with racial and homophobic slurs. Three fast food workers who said they were fired as retaliation for reporting harassment against a trans colleague who was also fired. There was also Dylan Bringle, a 29 year old who was fired after their first day of work at a Holiday Inn Express.

[Abby Vasoulis]

It started out like a typical morning. It started out like you would any first day.

[Al Edson]

You walk in, you meet with the.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Managers right at the front door.

[Karen Ortiz]

Dylan told me that back in 2022, they were making a lot of big changes in their life. They were in the process of transitioning from female to male, and they moved across the country to live with their boyfriend in western New York. At first, Dylan struggled to find work, but then they saw a listing for a housekeeping job at a Holiday Inn. The hotel invited Dylan to come in for an interview.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I was like, okay, well, just so you're aware, I am transitioning from female to male.

[Al Edson]

And they said, okay, we respect that.

[Abby Vasoulis]

We'll do our best to make sure you fit in.

[Al Edson]

You're comfortable here.

[Karen Ortiz]

The hotel asked Dylan to start work the next day. They were thrilled to finally be getting a paycheck. But shortly after they clocked in the next morning, things started to unravel. Dylan says their manager called them an IT and a transformer and said that people like Dylan are what's wrong with society. How did it make you feel when you faced the discrimination? Initially?

[Abby Vasoulis]

Upset, hurt. I struggle with that with my own family.

[Karen Ortiz]

So Dylan reported the harassment to hotel management at the end of the shift. But the complaint got brushed off when they showed up for work the next day. A manager fired Dylan.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Dealing with that, dealing with discrimination, it really does. Some people might not think that it takes a toll on somebody, but it does.

[Karen Ortiz]

Dylan didn't have money to hire a lawyer, but they heard about the EEOC from a friend and soon after, they turned to the agency for help. When the EEOC agreed to take their case, they felt validated. Dylan still gets emotional talking about it.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I felt relieved that we actually listened.

[Karen Ortiz]

But then about four months after the lawsuit was filed, Dylan woke up to a text from their EEOC lawyer saying they needed to talk.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Got on the phone with her and.

[Al Edson]

She told me that they have to.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Unfortunately drop my case against their own. Like Will. They don't really didn't want to.

[Karen Ortiz]

Dylan says the EEOC dropping the case felt like a gut punch, like the federal government didn't care about trans people at all.

[Abby Vasoulis]

It makes me feel that at any point, somebody can just kind of do something that hurts me physically, not just mentally or emotionally.

[Karen Ortiz]

Dylan is still hopeful they will have their day in court. Lawyers from a nonprofit legal group have requested a judge let them represent Dylan in place of the eeoc.

[Al Edson]

Jocelyn Samuels made cases like Dylan's a priority. Now that she's been fired, she's suing the Trump administration for wrongful term. Karen Ortiz was put on administrative leave earlier this month for unbecoming conduct. She's considering her legal options. Trump recently issued an executive order making it easier to fire federal workers who oppose his policies. In it, he quoted Karen's email. The EEOC's seismic shift didn't come out of nowhere. Trump's battle against DEI has been years in the making. America First Legal is leading the charge against racism targeting white straight men in America. Woke corporations around. That's next on Reveal. Hi there. This is Cynthia, senior radio editor at Reveal. The ads you hear are an important part of our funding model, but the truth is they only cover a tiny fraction of what it costs to produce this show. Show and that's where you come in. You count on us to deliver riveting investigations every week. Can we count on you? Please donate today. Just text the word give to 88857 reveal. That's 888-577-3832 or visit revealnews.org donate and thank you from the center for Investigative Reporting and prx. This is reveal. I'm Al Ledson. We've been talking about the Trump administration's fight against diversity, equity and inclusion and how it's using a government agency to redefine what counts as discrimination. Earlier this year, there was a moment that set the stage for what was coming. It happened just nine days after Trump took office, at the very first press conference he gave as president. I speak to you this morning in an hour of anguish for our nation. Trump is standing at the podium in the White House briefing room with a somber look on his face. It's the morning after a Blackhawk helicopter crashed into a commercial jet over the Potomac river in D.C. 67 people were killed. As one nation, we grieve for every precious soul that has been taken from us so suddenly. What went wrong is still unknown, but people want answers, and Trump promises a thorough investigation. We do not know what led to this crash, but we have some very strong opinions and ideas, and I think we'll probably state those opinions now. This is where the press conference takes a major turn. Trump pulls out a year old New York Post article and reads from it. The FAA is actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems, and other mental and physical conditions under a diversity and inclusion hiring initiative spelled out on the agency's website. Can you imagine? The president then spends the rest of his speech insinuating that DEI caused the crash. He implied that a diversity program at the Federal Aviation Administration or FAA was at fault for dozens of lost lives.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I'm trying to figure out how you.

[Al Edson]

Can come to the conclusion right now that diversity had something to do with this crash. Because I have common sense, okay? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't. We want brilliant people doing this. White House reporters seem stunned. But Trump's theory didn't come out of nowhere. Mother Jones reporter Abby Vasoulis explains how this moment was years in the making. She starts with an expert who's been experiencing the backlash against DEI firsthand. This is not a dog whistle. This is a very, very loud megaphone.

[Karen Ortiz]

This is Vernae Meyers. She's spent the last 30 years working to bring DEI programs to companies. Vernee says Trump's remarks one day after a fatal plane crash mimic an anti DEI movement that exemplifies all kinds of isms.

[Al Edson]

The minute you decide you know what a person is capable of and all the information you have is their race or their gender or their sexual orientation, and you believe that they're not qualified, that is called racism. That is called sexism. That is called homophobia or heterosexism.

[Abby Vasoulis]

It's.

[Karen Ortiz]

You could put it in a dictionary. Vernee is a big name in the DEI world. She's worked in the field since the 90s, long before it was mainstream. And she's led real change, like at Netflix, where she was the head of inclusion strategy. Bernay broadened hiring practices and the percentage of black employees at Netflix doubled while she was there. There was always some resistance, but it never stopped her. And then in the summer of 2020, George Floyd's murder sparked protests around the country. It was the start of a racial reckoning.

[Al Edson]

I mean, what you had is the shock and awe of the whole thing, the horror of it. So you've got a lot of emotions, a lot of fear and a lot of anger, and then you have A lot of guilt and shame. And what that looks like is, tell me what to do. Tell me what to do, Tell me what to do.

[Karen Ortiz]

Companies started to hire people like Vernee to help evaluate whether they were treating everyone equitably. Many realized they weren't and rush to course correct.

[Al Edson]

The co founder and CEO of Zillow is a founding pledge partner of the Board Challenge.

[Karen Ortiz]

That means they've committed to adding at.

[Al Edson]

Least one African American board member.

[Karen Ortiz]

When it comes to Starbucks. They're coming out with a mentorship program for their black, indigenous and people of color employees, they call their employees. It wasn't just about adding new programs. It was an attempt to address past and present harms. CEOs and executives across the country resigned after allegations of racism surfaced. Police chiefs stepped down. Statues honoring leaders of the Confederacy were replaced. For some, it felt like a long overdue shift, a move towards an even playing field. But it was also messy and confusing. How can society address wrongs from the past? What kind of previously accepted bad behavior was now a fireable offense? What should we be teaching children in school? Dredging up the country's shameful past was making some people feel uncomfortable and even angry. I was alarmed. I was really just extremely disturbed and unsettled by the way that race and the experience of being African American in this country was being presented. This is Monica Harris. She doesn't necessarily fit the stereotype of someone advocating against diversity. So my. My journey's been a little unique. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, California.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I'm black.

[Karen Ortiz]

I'm.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I'm female. I'm also gay.

[Karen Ortiz]

Monica is an author and an attorney. She says her politics used to lean progressive until she and her family relocated from Los Angeles to Montana, where she says she saw a lot of white people struggling.

[Abby Vasoulis]

What I noticed when I came to.

[Karen Ortiz]

Montana is that in the era of.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Trump and in the era of this depolarization, there was a real alienation, a.

[Karen Ortiz]

Real hostility towards people who are white.

[Abby Vasoulis]

People who are conservative, people who weren't, quote, unquote, disenfranchised.

[Karen Ortiz]

What finally pushed Monica over the edge was a book. Her son brought it home from school. A children's adaptation of how to Be an Anti Racist. It had become a runaway bestseller. After the murder of George Floyd, her son had to read the book. So Monica read it too.

[Abby Vasoulis]

You know, my concern is that after.

[Karen Ortiz]

Reading this book, if I'm white, if.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I was a white student, I would hate myself.

[Karen Ortiz]

And if I was a black student, like my son is biracial, I would hate white people. Monica believes focusing on diversity and equity creates division, and she doesn't think it's worth it. She acknowledges racial disparities exist, but she doesn't think discrimination is the reason why not everybody turns out to be successful and wealthy. Not everyone can be a Bill Gates. Not everyone can be a Michelle Obama. And I think it's important that we just accept that and stop trying to.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Assume that simply because we see disparities.

[Karen Ortiz]

There's definitely an inherent inequity. Monica was not alone. A network of advocacy groups started to push back against dei. Some focused on the corporate world. Others rallied against racial justice being taught in schools. Hi, I'm Monica Harris, executive director of fair. At fair, Monica became the head of the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. Bayre sees DEI programs as alienating to white people and advocates against them. Within this spectrum of DEI dissent, Monica's group is one of the more subdued. Staunch allies of Donald Trump would take this moment of racial reckoning and flip it on its head. Some of these other groups didn't just claim DEI practices were divisive. They portrayed them as inherently racist, mainly to white and straight people.

[Al Edson]

America First Legal is leading the charge against racism targeting white straight men in America.

[Karen Ortiz]

That's Stephen Miller, who is now a White House deputy chief of staff under Trump's first term. Miller was behind a controversial immigration policy that separated kids from their parents. It left many children traumatized and lost in a maze of bureaucracy. For years after Trump left office, Miller founded America First Legal. The nonprofit said it intended to fight DEI in the courts, but tax records show the group was far more focused on marketing a culture war. In 2022 alone, Miller's nonprofit and its subsidiaries spent the vast majority of their budgets, over $120 million on ads like this one.

[Al Edson]

Diversity, equity, inclusion.

[Karen Ortiz]

It's left wing code for whites and Asians.

[Al Edson]

Not welcome.

[Karen Ortiz]

It means prioritizing trans job seekers over straight ones.

[Al Edson]

Democrats call this equity. We know it's bigotry and it must be defeated.

[Karen Ortiz]

Then in June 2023, the new anti DEI movement got its first major legal win from the supreme court.

[Abby Vasoulis]

In a 6 to 3 decision, the.

[Al Edson]

Justices ruled that Harvard University and the.

[Abby Vasoulis]

University of North Carolina violated the Constitution by considering race when deciding whether to admit someone to their school. The latest example of the conservative majority redefining American law.

[Karen Ortiz]

The court ruled in favor of Students for Fair Admissions, or sffa, a group funded by foundations that have also invested in climate change denialism. The conservative justices said that race based admissions policies are unconstitutional. They base their decisions on the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment as well as the Civil Rights Act. The same laws created to fight discrimination were now being used to eliminate policies that were supposed to create more equality. It was a stunning reversal, overturning 45 years of legal precedent. And even though the ruling focused on university admissions, the anti DEI movement would soon use it to reshape DEI everywhere.

[Al Edson]

To vigorously enforce yesterday's Supreme Court ruling. I will eliminate all, all diversity, equity and inclusion programs across the entire federal government.

[Karen Ortiz]

Donald Trump was on the campaign trail when the ruling came down. He was speaking at an event hosted by Moms for Liberty, the anti DEI group primarily known for pushing to ban books in schools.

[Al Edson]

We will restore a society based on equality, liberty, and merit. We're back with the merit. Can you believe this? This happened yesterday. Merit, you get good.

[Karen Ortiz]

And Trump delivered on his promise. Once he was sworn in, millions of dollars in research and grants with any connection to diversity were shut down. References to abolitionists like Harriet Tubman were removed from government websites. And a month into his presidency, the White House released a video of Trump appointees.

[Al Edson]

Hey, this is HUD Secretary Scott Turner. DEI at HUD is dead. It's gone.

[Karen Ortiz]

DEI is dead at the ba.

[Al Edson]

DEI is dead at the epa.

[Abby Vasoulis]

We've killed DEI at the Department of Energy. We're bringing.

[Karen Ortiz]

As the Trump administration bragged about ending DEI in government, private lawyers and nonprofits were searching for future lawsuits to bring. And new cases started popping up. Monica's organization, fair, sued the state of Arkansas for having diversity quotas on its state licensing boards. Arkansas law required the boards to reserve at least one seat for a racial or ethnic minority. FAIR represented a white client who wanted to be appointed but couldn't because the board was already all white. I spoke with the lead attorney for the case, Caleb Trotter. He explained why they're fighting these quotas.

[Abby Vasoulis]

What is most important is that individuals be treated as individuals and that government service should be based on someone's individual qualifications, experience, interest in serving. They shouldn't just be favored or disfavored based on race.

[Karen Ortiz]

Caleb says he's not against diversity. What he is against is using race in any way to select individuals for positions. Even if the policies aim to address undeniable disparities, having an all white board in a state where 25% of the population is black or Hispanic could suggest pre existing barriers or perhaps systemic racism. Caleb disagrees. To what extent do you think systemic racism against underrepresented groups exists today?

[Abby Vasoulis]

Well, I'm not an expert in that. But I would push back and say that it at least hasn't yet been proven to be true that any of these board statutes were enacted to redress discrimination. The government has the burden to produce evidence, especially after the Students for Fair Admissions case, that the law is geared toward redressing actual acts of discrimination.

[Karen Ortiz]

Even if you can prove discrimination, Caleb says there needs to be an endpoint in place. His legal argument is almost verbatim to the Supreme Court's. Since the Supreme Court decision, even liberal lawyers acknowledged that some race specific policies resembling quotas are vulnerable under the law. But legal experts told me that doesn't mean that all DEI programs have to go.

[Al Edson]

One of the problems with the discussion of DEI is that we can be talking about apples and oranges. Not all of these programs should be treated the same legally.

[Karen Ortiz]

This is Michael Yelnoski. He's an attorney and professor who specializes in employment discrimination law. Michael argues that to group all diversity programs together endangers essential and lawful practices that are helping to end discrimination. And he's worried that this fight against DEI is fueling a dangerous narrative that.

[Al Edson]

Somebody who's a, quote, DEI hire, meaning black or a woman, isn't qualified. I think we've heard them say that.

[Karen Ortiz]

We heard them say it about Kamala Harris.

[Al Edson]

We heard them say it after the helicopter went down into the Potomac. Right.

[Karen Ortiz]

Michael is referring to the president's claims that DEI may have caused that tragic air collision at a now infamous press conference. It was a moment that set off a social media firestorm for a military pilot named Joe Ellis. So you think that the press conference may have been one factor in leading this mob reaction towards you?

[Abby Vasoulis]

I think so, yeah.

[Karen Ortiz]

Jo's a military pilot in the Virginia Army National Guard. She's been deployed to Iraq and Kuwait. She served as a door gunner operating a machine gun from the back of a helicopter. And she's also a trans woman who flies Black Hawk helicopters, the kind that crashed into the Potomac. And the morning after the President's press conference, her phone was buzzing nonstop.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I woke up to text messages from people saying I was flying the helicopter that crashed into the jetliner. I kind of dismissed it at first.

[Karen Ortiz]

Joe transitioned from a man to a woman about two years ago, and up until this point, she'd felt accepted, at least by her unit and commander. She said they'd always been supportive. Everything was surprisingly fine until after the crash.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Then I got more messages and then I got phone calls and received a phone call from the Daily Mail, and I quickly hung up and Googled Myself, I realized that this was not just some, you know, a person in the corner of the Internet saying something in a cave like this had legs.

[Karen Ortiz]

Joe was the second most trending topic in the United States. On the social media site x, an anti DEI account with over 2 million followers accused Joe of committing a, quote, trans terror attack. The man behind the account, a right wing influencer, said the collision was intentional and that gender dysphoria was obviously to blame. Joe was terrified.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I quickly went into soldier mode and was like, all right, I need to contact my family. I was just afraid of their safety. So I arranged private security, armed security for them at the residence. And then I also concealed carry a firearm.

[Karen Ortiz]

Now, Joe believes that Trump's press conference and anti trans sentiment directly led to this mob reaction towards her. And now, despite a successful military career, she says a helicopter crash she had nothing to do with is what people know her for.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Because I'm recognized in public, it's really changed. Like, my life is forever different now because of this.

[Karen Ortiz]

But Joe is also facing another grim reality. Along with the order targeting dei, Trump reinstated a ban on transgender people serving in the military.

[Abby Vasoulis]

You're kicking out a very qualified pilot that cost a million dollars to train. And if you care about costs and you care about meritocracy, then it shouldn't matter if I'm trans.

[Karen Ortiz]

After nearly 16 years in the National Guard, Jo is no longer allowed to serve her country.

[Al Edson]

In April, Jo Ellis filed a defamation lawsuit against the man whose post spread her personal information online.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I want to fight. I want to go out on my feet, and I want to speak up for those that can't.

[Al Edson]

When we come back to college professors who are also ready to fight. That's next on Reveal. Foreign from the center for Investigative Reporting and prx, this is Reveal. I'm Al Edson. We just finished hearing how a Supreme Court ruling turned into a pivotal victory for the anti DEI movement. Prestigious universities were told in no uncertain terms to stop using race as a factor to during the admissions process, academia was shocked. Since Trump took office, the scrutiny on schools has only intensified. More than 50 colleges and universities are under investigation for alleged illegal DEI practices and for alleged anti Semitism, most famously Colombia. In March, the Trump administration made an example out of the Ivy League university.

[Abby Vasoulis]

The Trump administration announced it is canceling.

[Al Edson]

$400 million worth of grants and contracts to Columbia University. The White House says it is due to the school's, quote, continued inaction. In the face of persistent harassment of.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Jewish students, the school will implement new.

[Karen Ortiz]

Rules regarding how it supervises and oversees certain programs in order to restore crucial federal funding.

[Al Edson]

Next, the administration went after Harvard, demanding the university do things like share all its data on who it hires and what students get admitted. Harvard did not cave and lost $2.2 billion in federal funding.

[Karen Ortiz]

Harvard University is now suing the Trump.

[Al Edson]

Administration over those multi billion dollar cuts.

[Karen Ortiz]

To research funding for the school. Harvard is calling it, in this suit, unconstitutional and illegal.

[Al Edson]

The spectacle of America's oldest and wealthiest university facing off against the Trump administration captured the spotlight and keeps playing out. But the pushback didn't begin at Harvard. About a month before Harvard sued, two professors at Rutgers University in New Jersey got on the phone. They were concerned about the lack of solidarity among schools, and they wanted to do something about it. So they created what's being called a mutual defense compact. Universities who sign onto this compact commit to defending one another in the face of an attack. In other words, an attack on one would be considered an attack on all. They're joining me now to talk about it. Daveed Salas de la Cruz directs the chemistry graduate program at Rutgers. And Paul Boxer is a professor of psychology. Guys, let's just jump right into it. How many universities have signed on to this compact?

[Abby Vasoulis]

We now have 14 out of the 18 Big Ten schools that have passed a resolution similar to ours or one that's more broader. Several comprehensive state universities in New England, UConn and URI and UMass Amherst. We just found out last week that the University of Alaska has become engaged and so. And a handful of small state universities in Georgia. So this is happening everywhere. And again, I apologize. I've lost count. It's over 40 by this time.

[Al Edson]

Daveed, one of the ways the Trump administration is going after schools, including Rutgers, is by trying to cut funding for research grants that are deemed part of diversity, equity, and inclusion. How can schools support each other in the face of these cuts? So, you know, I think right now.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Some schools already being supporting each other in term of, you know, having, you know, collaborative research. And I think this is now the opportunity to even expand this. I want the audience to understand this.

[Al Edson]

When you're removing grants, you are hurting students.

[Abby Vasoulis]

They're not hurting administrators. You're hurting students. So right now, what this complex is allowing to do is establishing whose university across the region can then start collaborating between each other. And if they have a specific grant that is being removed, then those universities surrounding them can actually help.

[Al Edson]

Paul, given the way the Trump administration has been going after colleges and universities so aggressively, do you think this compact goes Far enough, it can actually make a difference.

[Abby Vasoulis]

I think it can. I mean, one of the things that we've seen over the last few months is that a lot of the efforts to harm universities directly, and I'm thinking especially of Harvard here, have been found to be illegal, have been blocked in courts. So I think part of it is universities coming together and ensuring that there are existing resources that can be shared in the defense of these kinds of attacks. Shared legal resources, shared research resources, shared student training resources. And part of it really is, I think it gives universities the chance to come together and hold the line and buy some time. While some of these legal battles do play out in the courts, I think it would certainly have universities be in a much better prepared position to stand and fight. Absolutely.

[Al Edson]

I mean, if we have 14 universities.

[Abby Vasoulis]

Let'S say out of the 18, and over thousands of professors start talking, over hundreds of thousands of students start talking in social media, you can see the power. No, this is where it's going. I think, especially just along those lines. David mentioned the 14 of the 18 Big Ten schools. We are talking about the schools that millions of Americans tune in on Saturdays in the fall to watch play football. Right. We are talking about universities that have a major presence in American society. And so we are talking about universities like that coming together not just to promote intercollegiate athletics, but to promote intercollegiate education and research and scholarship and remind everyone in this country how incredibly important it is that we have this system.

[Al Edson]

So there's. With all of that, there is still a climate of fear that, you know, it stopped a lot of people from speaking out against the Trump administration. I'm curious, what is the temperature at Rutgers right now?

[Abby Vasoulis]

At Rutgers, I think, you know, we are in a state that has supported public education, including higher education, very well for a very long time. We have one of the strongest, to my knowledge, academic freedom policies in the country, if not the world, in terms of faculty being able to study what they need to study within their areas of interest and expertise. And so, given that kind of backing, I think the temperature at Rutgers is actually quite beneficial for being able to take this kind of stand. I know from talking to colleagues now at other universities in other kinds of states that it's not quite the same kind of vibe there that there are faculty who would be very concerned about speaking out. We saw what just happened in Texas with a bill that passed in the state legislature that gives political appointees and elected officials far more control over what happens at universities. I can't imagine a bill like that ever passing in A state like New Jersey or Massachusetts or some of these other states that have really gotten on board here. And so there is a very different kind of climate when it comes to speaking out in New Jersey. But at Rutgers, I think we have felt very supported. But one thing I noticed from every faculty that I talk is that freedom of speech is critical for them. Free governance structure without political interference is important for them. And that the freedom to ask any question, any question whatsoever, it's important to them. So you have an administrator that wants to change that. I think this will catalyze all the faculty member to rise up and protect us to get to what is the truth. The real truth happens when you can ask questions without nobody telling you not to ask.

[Al Edson]

David and Paul, thank you so much for coming to talk to me today.

[Abby Vasoulis]

You're welcome. And I thank you again for the opportunity. Yeah, thank you so much.

[Al Edson]

Paul Boxer and David Salas de la Cruz are professors at Rutgers University in New Jersey. Before we go, we want to tell you about our fight to get records about diversity in the workplace. Government contractors are required by law to disclose the race and gender statistics of their workforce. CIR believes that data should be public. So we sued the government and won. But troves of records continue to be withheld and the legal battle continues. This episode was reported by Abby Vasoulis from Mother Jones. You'll find a link to her written stories on our website. Our lead producer for this week's show was Anya Schulz with help from Michael Montgomery. Cynthia Rodriguez edited the show. Special thanks to Abby's digital editor, Dan Schulman. Alex Wein, Serena Lynn and Ruth Marai were our fact checkers. Legal review by Victoria Baranetsky. Our production manager Zulema Cobb. Score and sound design by the dynamic duo Jay Breezy, Mr. Jim Briggs and Fernando My Man Yo Arruda. That help from Claire C. Note Mullen. Our interim executive producers are Taki Telanitis and Bret Myers. Our theme music is by Camerado Lightning. Support for reveals provided by the Riva and David Logan foundation, the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family foundation, the Robert Wood Johnson foundation, the park foundation, the Smith Family foundation and the Hellman Foundation. Support for reveal is also provided by you our listeners. We are a co production of the center for Investigative Reporting in prx. I'm Al Edson and remember there is always more to the story from prx.