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- [00:02]
Jeff Pearlman
Tupac viewed himself as a revolutionary and Tupac always carried with him the Black Panther ethos. Standing up for your people, self reliance, black empowerment. He got that from his mom.
- [00:17]
Al Letson
Coming up on More to the Story, a conversation with author Jeff Pearlman about Tupac Shakur, his role in hip hop, his movies, and the legacy he left behind way too soon. Stay with us.
- [00:33]
Jeff Pearlman
Scores of black veterans aren't getting the medical treatment or compensation they need, all because of their race. We're doing this lung testing like this and it's not scientific and it's hurting patients. I have seen white veterans get more benefits and if they basing it upon color of a skin, that's not right because we are all veterans. We are banned from talking about anything that has race in it. To hear all episodes of the Race Equation from the New England Journal of Medicine.
- [01:04]
Sponsor/Announcer
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- [01:37]
Jane Butcher
want to make a lasting difference to Reveal and protect independent journalism? Right now, it won't cost you a thing. Hi, it's Jane Butcher from Boulder, Colorado. I've spent my life fighting for justice, which is why I'm a longtime supporter of Reveal and the center for Investigative Reporting. I'm stepping up to protect the future of fearless independent journalism, and you can too, by joining CIR's Legacy Challenge. Just let Reveal know you're going to include them in your legacy plans. Provide some basic information, and here's the really exciting part. A generous donor will contribute up to $10,000 now to fund Reveals Essential Reporting in honor of your gift. Your legacy gift of any size makes an impact not just in the future, but right now. If you'd like to join me or want to learn more, please reach out to giftsevielnews.org again, that's giftsevielnews.org the Legacy Challenge is only available for a limited time. Stand up for the Truth Today,
- [02:52]
Al Letson
September 13, 1996, is a day that I will always remember. The world lost a tremendous talent. Rapper, actor and activist Tupac Shakur died six days after sustaining injuries in a drive by Shooting in Las Vegas.
- [03:09]
Jeff Pearlman
Every brother in here, please take your hat off. At 7:03pm New York time, 4:03pm Las Vegas time. Tupac Shakur passed away, y'.
- [03:18]
Al Letson
All Conspiracies still swirl around the circumstances of his death, but what is certain is the legacy of the 25 year old rapper. My guest today isn't exactly the person you'd expect to write the definitive biography of Tupac Shakur, but in my opinion, he did. Jeff Pearlman is a sports writer and best selling author known for profiling athletes like Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, and Walter Payton. Now, I'm not a sports guy, but Jeff and I are of the same generation. We both grew up on hip hop. And in the 90s, Tupac was one of the brightest stars in the sky. Not just because of his music, but the way he lived his life. Jeff's profile of Tupac is called Only God Can Judge the Many Lives of Tupac Shakur. We were each having our early morning coffee when we chatted.
- [04:11]
Jeff Pearlman
I'm tired, but I'm game.
- [04:13]
Al Letson
I feel so bad that we got you up so early. Forgive me.
- [04:15]
Jeff Pearlman
All good.
- [04:16]
Al Letson
I absolutely love the book. Can you tell us what drew you to Tupac? Because you're normal, B. You're. You're a sports writer.
- [04:26]
Jeff Pearlman
I am. You know, I wrote 10 sports books and I really wanted to do something different. I've always been fascinated by Tupac. I always thought there was so much mythology there. But what's real, what's not real? I was waiting for someone to write this definitive, big fat biography of Tupac. Not a state biography, but a biography written by an sort of unbiased observer of some sort. Waiting, thought different people were going to do it. No one ever did. It finally said to my agent, the great David Black, I said, I want to write a Tupac book. He's like, what? I'm like, yeah, I want to write a Tupac book. He said to me, literally, he goes, you're a. You're a white sports writer. And I'm like, I know, but I just think someone should write this book. And I want to bring the same sort of journalistic, I don't know, intensity or whatever to the subject. And I just kind of dove in. It basically was the book I wanted to write and I wanted to read.
- [05:20]
Al Letson
I think we're probably around the same age. And as someone that grew up in that era and huge lover of hip hop, I mean, actually I got my start in entertainment by being a hip hop performer and writer and producer inspired in part by Tupac and many others. And Biggie feel like, I gotta say Biggie, but I don't think that we have enough real, unbiased, hard hitting journalism about that era about hip hop, about those characters. I think a lot of that has to do with racism because it's like they're looked at, they're like, not very important, but they absolutely are part of the fabric that makes America what it is today.
- [06:05]
Jeff Pearlman
Well, I think it's really interesting. I had lunch with Chuck D, the Public Enemy front man, and I said to him at one point, I was like, I know this isn't why you do what you do, right? I was like, I know this is. This can't be one of your top 20 reasons. I was like, but there are millions out of millions, hundreds of thousands of white kids across America and probably around the world whose education on black culture and the black struggle in many ways came from listening to Public Enemy songs, myself included. Right? And that's not the purpose of hip hop. It's not the primary purpose of hip hop. Maybe it's an offshoot of hip hop, but I 100 agree with you. I just think like, it's a medium that still probably isn't taken seriously enough in mainstream culture. It's obviously acknowledged and it's listened to and all that. But I don't think people. I think if people talk about the great musical artists of whatever the 90s, the impactful musical artists, I think your mind would go to Kurt Cobain. Most people, most white people, certainly way before they go to Tupac. I think Tupac was a much more important musical artist and just social figure than Kurt Cobain. I just think people don't know it.
- [07:14]
Al Letson
I think the other thing that I know about Tupac that is surprising, I think is that while he in many ways is framed in as a West coast artist, he's really a hybrid. Like, you know, much of his early life was on the East Coast. Can, can you kind of run down with me a little bit of Tupac's trajectory?
- [07:38]
Jeff Pearlman
Tupac is, I always say, or I've said since I wrote the book, he is a. I phrase it something kind of like this. He's a New York born, Baltimore raised, Black Panther informed West coast artist. So I kind of agree with you. He's a mishmash of a million different things. He's a kid who spent his very early years in New York, moved to Baltimore for the middle school years, spent one year at Dunbar High School in Baltimore, two years at the Baltimore School for the Arts. Baltimore School for the Arts. Very, very, very much informed and enlightened and educated him. Ben is kind of, as his sister Set said to me when I asked, what was it like when you moved to California? And she said to me, well, there's your white privilege. And I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, we weren't moved, we were relocated. And I was like, ouch. And, you know, California was thrust upon him and he was, he was just immersed in the middle of crack culture. Moved to, you know, public housing in, in a pretty, you know, dangerous, wild, wild west area, Marin City. But also really exposed him to a lot of artists and a certain style of music that he never would have had had he stayed in. I always say if Tupac had stayed in Baltimore, there's like a sliding doors moment where he stays in Baltimore. He graduates from Baltimore School for the Arts and he winds up going to like NYU for film school or Berklee College of Music. There's this weird sliding door thing. But he moves to the west coast and he's immersed in crack culture, he's immersed in the projects, he's immersed in all these artists, and he becomes Tupac.
- [09:26]
Al Letson
Let's talk about his mother and his stepfather. What was that relationship like? And you know Tupac, when he was in Baltimore, I believe his mother was struggling with addiction then right before they moved out to California. Can you kind of talk me through that?
- [09:44]
Jeff Pearlman
Yeah. Well, so they moved to Baltimore after Tupac's mom kind of had a falling out with her sister Glow, who's who they lived with briefly in White Plains and they moved to Baltimore and they moved to a row house in East Baltimore. And I visited the row house and you know, it was. Impoverished is polite. I mean, Set told me she still is traumatized by the sound of rats running along the baseboards and that they had to put all their food really high up because the rats would get to the food that they had no heat, no air conditioning, two box floor was a strip of basically Astroturf in his room. It was a weird moment. He would come home and you never knew what state his mom was going to be in. She was definitely depressed, but also self medicating. And she. So he would come home to that. No heat, no air conditioning. But then he would go off to this beautiful school, Baltimore School for the Arts. And if you walk in the front door of the Baltimore School for the Arts, you're going to hear either a symphony or some kids practicing a dialogue from an upcoming play, or you might hear Shakespeare. I mean, it's a moon. And he walks into this world and he's immersed in. Here's this white. One of his girlfriends is a white ballet dancer and she's the daughter of socialist parents. And you have these kids, you know, you have these kids, these young black kids who are as hungry as he is, but you have these wealthy white kids. And they all. It was a very cohesive, sort of beautiful, intertwined world of just creatives. And Tupac's walk in the hallway wearing maybe in Abe Lincoln top hat and a white tank top, drinking water out of a baby bottle with a sucking out of the nipple with spray painted jeans. And maybe one day it's. They're, they're practicing stillness and you're standing still listening to Dom McLean Vincent for an hour, just letting them make music envelop you. And that was kind of the world he occupied. But then he goes home every day and there's his mother, you know, and his mom at that point in Baltimore was not in a relationship. And Tupac, you know, his father had nothing to do with his life until he was older. And there were a string of different men who came along. There was a guy named Leg Saunders who was kind of a hustler in New York City. There was Mutulu Shakur, who is the father of his sister. And there are different men who came and went and had small impacts in his life. But I think what it reminded Tupac more than anything is that he actually didn't have a man role model. And he talked later on extensively about this hunger for some sort of male father figure to look up to that he never really felt like he had in full.
- [12:27]
Al Letson
And his mother was a Black Panther. Before, you know, before we get into the era of, you know, self medicating and, you know, all the things. Can we talk a little bit about, about that?
- [12:40]
Jeff Pearlman
I think it's really interesting. I kept telling people, I was like, every white person in America should do a book about Tupac Shakur just to learn about his mom. And then I realized midway through, no, not every white person, every person in America. Because even most black people I met don't really know the story of Afini Shakur. They know Tupac's mom, maybe she was a Panther. But I don't think most people know about the Panther 21 trial in New York City. I don't think they know that Afini Shakur was basically, she was in jail, pregnant with Tupac. She turns down a court appointed attorney to represent herself in this trial because she Thinks the attorney, a young white woman has too soft of a voice and too passive of an approach. So every day she's being brought to prison. All the other Panthers have attorneys representing them. She turns down. These are 21 Black Panthers who's. Who are being accused of planning to bomb and assault different locations throughout the city, different attractions in New York and New Jersey. And she represents herself while pregnant, while being shuttled back and forth to jail and wins this trial. And it is insane, Just insane.
- [13:49]
Al Letson
I mean, it's just. It's absolutely insane that. That, like, this woman had no legal. Like, she wasn't a lawyer. She just.
- [13:59]
Jeff Pearlman
High school dropout. It's crazy. It's. It. This is a weird thing for kind of an author to say she's a better book than Tupac. She's amazing. And also, imagine being Tupac and this is your hero. Like, this is your God. Is Afeni Shakur your mother? My mom's a Black Panther. First thing, you tell everyone, my mom's a Black Panther. My mom's a Black Panther. Well, then you watch your mom, your hero, devolve into the depths of addiction at the worst level as possible. And not only that, especially when you're in Marin City, not only is your mom a crack addict, but your friends are selling your crack and you can't even live with her anymore. She kicks you out because you try telling her, mom, you need to get help. You need to get out. Get the fuck out of my house. Get the fuck out of this house. And you're wandering homeless through the catacombs of the projects of Marin City because your hero is now so strung out on crack that she doesn't want you living there. Like, yeah. That informs Tupac, I think, more than anything.
- [14:57]
Al Letson
And I think, like, when I think of the song Dear Mama, the juxtaposition of, you know, the love and the respect versus the fact that his mother was struggling with addiction is really the grit of that song. I feel like that's the reason why that song sticks so well. I remember the first time I heard it and being like, this is. This is an incredible song. But when he gets to the line of like. And even as a crack fiend, mama always was the black queen.
- [15:31]
Jeff Pearlman
Mama. I finally understand, for a woman, it
- [15:34]
Al Letson
ain't easy trying to raise a man. I remember, like, it just shook me that this guy is making a song dedicated to his mother, but also recognizing that she had addiction issues. It just felt. It felt like raw and personal and brilliant.
- [15:52]
Jeff Pearlman
It's interesting, that song. I. I spent Three years listening to Tupac non stop.
- [15:57]
Al Letson
Yeah.
- [15:57]
Jeff Pearlman
And I had to set it aside. And the other day I was driving, and I was like, I'm gonna listen to Dear Mama. And Dear Mama has never been one of my favorite Tupac songs, I think mainly because I just heard it too much. It's one of those songs like, you hear all the time. And after a while it's like, oh, okay, I get it. And working on this book, there are two things that really stuck with me about it. Number one is it's really an aspirational song. And I. I spoke with Yasmine Fula, who spent so many years with Chewbacca and with. With Afini, and she agreed with me. I'm like, that is an aspirational song. That is the mom he wants but doesn't quite have. You know, he wants the black queen. He wants his mom to make the hot plate. But, like, she didn't really. And she let him down over and over and over again. And really, he lifted her up. So that was the one thing. Number two, you listen to it, and it is quintessential Tupac in that you can hear kind of. I know this sounds artsy, but, like, I think you can genuinely hear the pain in his voice doing that song. Absolutely. And, like, you just. You want to hug the guy after he's done. You picture him crumbling to the ground, being like, I can't do that again, you know?
- [17:05]
Al Letson
Yep. Yeah, yeah. So when Tupac went to the Baltimore School of the Arts, it was kind of a life changing thing for him as a young man. I'm actually friends. Old friends with his drama teacher at the Baltimore School of the Arts, Donald Hicken, who is. I worked with Donald many, many, many, many years ago at the beginning of my career as a playwright and writer. And I never went to college, but I feel like the time that I spent with Donald Hicken, I learned more about writing and acting than any other time in my life. And he hired me to write something for his kids. And so sometimes we would talk a little bit, and I knew that he had taught Tupac, and he would just talk about the fact that Tupac had such an amazing instrument as an actor that he could just. He'd get on stage and he'd light it up. I remember him telling me once that he loved his hip hop, but he actually thought that Tupac was a better actor than he was a rapper. And he also felt that he brought a lot of his acting ability into his hip hop because a lot of the things that he would say and do. And the Persona he created was not actually who Tupac was.
- [18:26]
Jeff Pearlman
Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I just want to say I interviewed Interview. Jim Belushi was in Tupac in the movie Gang Related. And when I interviewed Belushi, he's like. He's like, I always thought Tupac was two movies away from Academy Award. Like, he was that good. And it's funny you made this. My wife actually got mad at me for saying this when I did a public event once, but I don't think Tupac was ever in a great movie. I know people love Juice, and I think Juice was an important movie and it was cool and. But if you watch, I can't.
- [18:56]
Al Letson
I can't agree with you there. I'll get stoned if I walked out of the studio.
- [19:00]
Jeff Pearlman
I know.
- [19:01]
Al Letson
I think I'm gonna let you take that arrow.
- [19:04]
Jeff Pearlman
I'm. I'm comfortable with that. I think Tupac was amazing in Juice. In fact, I think was amazing in every movie he was in. Like, the one that I really can. I was like. I watched it and I was like, oh, my God, this just. Poetic justice. It's not a good movie. I think Tupac wound up in movies that weren't as good as he was.
- [19:23]
Al Letson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Coming up on More to the story.
- [19:27]
Jeff Pearlman
Everyone I talked to, black, white, young, old, gang affiliated librarian, felt the same exact way that a guy that great with that much greatness dying that way is just a complete and total waste of life.
- [19:47]
Al Letson
Before we get to that, there's a lot going on in the world right now, and Reveal has got you covered with in depth reporting to help you. But we're also really good about great conversations with interesting people like Jeff here, so I'm gonna remind you. Follow Reveal on your favorite podcast app and don't miss a single episode. All right? More with author Jeff Pearlman after this.
- [20:16]
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- [20:50]
Jeff Pearlman
Hey.
- [20:50]
Al Letson
Hey.
- [20:50]
Jeff Pearlman
Hey.
- [20:51]
Al Letson
Listen, we've been working on an episode about the 250th anniversary of American independence, and we'd like you to be a part of it. For a chance to have your voice appear on the show, leave us a voicemail letting us know what patriotism means to you at this moment in our nation's history, we want to hear from all kinds of people, young, old, and from all across the political spectrum. To leave us a voicemail, just call 415-321-1776. Again, that's 415-321-1776. Thank you, and we look forward to hearing what you have to say. This is more to the story. I'm Aletson and I'm back with author Jeff Pearlman. How many people did you interview for this book? You went all out?
- [21:46]
Jeff Pearlman
652.
- [21:48]
Al Letson
Yeah. That's an insane amount just to see.
- [21:50]
Jeff Pearlman
It's only because I have no life. It's only because I have no life.
- [21:53]
Al Letson
I don't have a life either. And I did a Tupac documentary for the BBC, and I maybe interviewed 20 people.
- [21:59]
Jeff Pearlman
So books are different, though. Books are different. You know, how many people can you have on screen, you know? But a book you can just shove everyone in.
- [22:06]
Al Letson
Yeah, I want to go through some of the big moments in his life and just kind of talk about them. So, I mean, obviously, you know, a big moment for him was moving to Baltimore and being in the Baltimore School of the Arts. And I feel like that was, you know, when you begin to see the seed of who Tupac was, like, really begin to start to blossom. Right. Would you agree with that?
- [22:33]
Jeff Pearlman
100%. One of my best finds for this book, like, by far, was he had a girlfriend named Mary Baldrige, and Mary was a white ballet dancer I mentioned briefly, Daughter of socialists. And Tupac happened to be the. The ballet company needed one acting student, and they used Tupac. And Tupac winds up meeting this girl, Mary. And I reached out to Mary. I was told she's not going to talk. She's very hard to get to talk. I actually kind of formed a little bond with Mary, and she lives in the middle of nowhere, Nebraska. And she said to me, you know, my mom recently found about 150 love letters Tupac wrote me under her bed. If you want to come out to Nebraska, I'll show you the letters. I was like, I'm coming to Nebraska. Yeah, I went out to Nebraska, and we met at a deli, and she broke out this folder of letters. And I'm reading the letters, and they're these. The writing is insane. Like, tupac was like, 16, and it was just different level and There it was. It was poetry, honestly, it was poetry. And it was like horny. Tupac, I want to get inside of you and feel the inner warmth of your. It was heartbroken. Tupac, I hate my mom and I never want to see her again. It was abandoned. Tupac, tomorrow I'm going to be homeless. I'll probably be sleeping at the gym, blah, blah, blah. It was all these amazing, amazing sort of expressions of who he was at the time. And I just think Baltimore, his time at that school, allowed him to really open up and express himself. And I know it sounds cliche, but, like, be really vulnerable to people like this. It's my favorite. Tupac is Baltimore School for the Arts. Tupac. I just think it's the most unique, fascinating. He's like a butterfly in many ways.
- [24:11]
Al Letson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after Baltimore School of the Arts, he moves to Marin county, which. And he's like in the rough part of Marin county, like really trying to figure it out. Can you tell me a little bit about his life there?
- [24:26]
Jeff Pearlman
Yeah, very interesting. He didn't want to move. His sister didn't want to move, his mom moved them to be closer to Geronimo Pratt, a former Panther who at the time was in prison nearby. And Geronimo Pratt's wife lived in an apartment. They moved in with her originally, then moved to Marin City. Marin City almost as fascinating as Baltimore, if not more. There's this moment. There's this moment I love, actually. So Chewbacc basically gets kicked out of the apartment by his mother, moves in with a guy named Demetrius Striplin, who's a local dj. And Demetrius Stripland doesn't even know Tupac and rap. He just has extra room and he hears Tupac rap and he's blown away. And there's this moment in Marin City where Tupac does a rap battle. People start knowing about Tupac Emcee New York. They start knowing about this kid, that he's a pretty good rapper and he's different. He has his New York style and he gets in this rap battle. They used to just have rap battles out in the open with this 13 year old kid named Tac. Tac. And Tupac gets his ass kicked. And this kid Tac does this whole thing about what it's like to live in the hood and streets and blah, blah, blah. And Tupac at this time is still doing mainly raps about like Social justice and UEP Newton and gets his ass kicked. And he basically vanishes for a week. And no one knows where Tupac went. Like, no one Knows where Tupac went. Where the hell is Tupac? See? All right, well, he shows up after a week, and he basically asked a local crack dealer if he could hang around with him for a week and just take notes. And I wound up interviewing the crack dealer. I went to. I went to lunch with him and his grandson. It's kind of funny watching time go by. And he told me, like, Tupac is basically this inquisitive kid who's like, hey, is it okay if I just take notes and follow you around? And the guy's like, all right, I guess so. So Tupac, for a week, studiously studying the crack dealer. And he comes back and he writes his song. He has a song written called in the Days of a Criminal. And it winds up being this great, great Tupac song. And it's kind of this moment for a lot of people around, too, where he went from being a writer to being an artist and kind of having this realization that you can't just observe and write the same way, you know, as opposed to immersing yourself.
- [26:54]
Al Letson
So I think, you know, the first time that I heard of Tupac was with Digital Underground. I was a huge Digital Underground fan. And I remember, I believe it was Same Song was the name of the song Tupac, go ahead and rock Now
- [27:11]
Jeff Pearlman
I clown around when I hang around with the underground. One of Tupac's flaws strengths was he was merciless. He would not stop, and he was. Could be really annoying. And he just kept saying, I need my shot. I need my shot. When am I gonna get my shot? And finally I was like, all right, we'll put Pac. We'll put you on this song. And they put him on Same Song. And I think a lot of people had the same reaction that you did, which is, whoa, who the fuck is this guy?
- [27:39]
Al Letson
Yeah. So at that point, he gets on Same Song, and then people start paying attention to him, and he ends up getting a record contract. And here we go. Like, he's off and running. I think the thing that a lot of people may not know is that, you know, in the old days, like, after Same Song happened, he's back in New York. He spends some time. He becomes friends with Biggie Smalls. Like, they hang out. They know each other. I think they did a song back then together, and then the robbery at the studio happens. Is my timeline correct?
- [28:18]
Jeff Pearlman
Yeah, I mean, it's a quick timeline. Like, he basically. He does Same Song. He does Two Pocalypse now. He does Brenda's Got a Baby song becomes something of a known song. The album kind of flopped. His second album, actually Strictly does a little better. It's got. I Got I Get around on it. And he does Juice, obviously. And Juice in a lot of ways
- [28:39]
Al Letson
changed it, changed the trajectory of his career.
- [28:41]
Jeff Pearlman
Yeah, because it's interesting when you hear him introduced on shows like he did. He did a bunch of, like, of late night shows. There'd be like, ladies and gentlemen, Tupac from Juice. Like, I remember there's this moment he was on with Heavy D and the Boys and Rosie Prez introduced and goes
- [28:58]
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straight off his new single. And with special guests, Tupac from Deuce and Flavor Flav from PE Please welcome Heavy D and Du Bois performing their new single, you Can't.
- [29:09]
Jeff Pearlman
Ladies and gentlemen, it's Heavy D and the Boys and Tupac from Juice. Like, nobody really knew who he was, except he was the guy from Juice and then the guy from.
- [29:17]
Al Letson
Yeah, he was Bishop and Juice. Like everybody remembered Bishop.
- [29:20]
Jeff Pearlman
Correct? Everyone knew Bishop, so. Yeah, but you're basically right. Yeah.
- [29:24]
Al Letson
So there's one thing that I don't remember clearly, or at least I don't remember the. The details. I just remember that in Atlanta, I think it had to be around 1993, Tupac got into it with two police officers. He shot them. Can you walk me through that story?
- [29:42]
Jeff Pearlman
All right, so Tupac was appearing at Homecoming at Clark University. And it's funny, I interviewed a bunch of people who were at that show, and there's a pretty well known Atlanta radio guy named Ryan Cameron who was at the show too. And he said Tupac was completely out of his mind at the show. Like, just like at one point it was. It was a college homecoming. And at one point someone with the show asked him not to curse. And he literally. I mean, which is a weird request, obviously of Tupac, but that all y', all, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, who wants me to. But the show did not go well. For some reason, he refused to play any of his hits. He didn't have that many hits at that point, but refuse to play any hits. Anyway, he's at the show, show doesn't go well, and he. He goes to the Sheridan Sheridan, I think, in Atlanta. And while they're driving there, he sees these two. He doesn't know they're off duty cops. He just sees these two white guys messing with a black motorist and getting in a fight. And Tupac ultimately pulls out his gun, kneels behind the door of his car, basically tells everyone to get down and fire shots and hits one of them. In the buttocks. And he winds up getting charged in his trial, blah, blah. And he winds up getting off because the off duty police officers, number one, use the N word on the guy, but lied about it. Like they lied about a lot of things, lied about what they were doing there, never identified themselves, etc. Etc. So there are all these extraneous things. Then famously, they go back to the hotel and he, like, this all happens, he shoots him, they get back in the car, they drive to the Sheridan, it's him and a bunch of his guys, they go into his room and he tells everyone he has a new song he's been working on. And he puts a tape in the, in the, in the stereo, and it's Dear Mama. So they're all listening to Dear Mama. A couple minutes later, knock, knock, knock. Police come and arrest Tupac. Yeah, it's a crazy, weird thing.
- [31:36]
Al Letson
It's such a privilege to talk to you because love the book and love the subject. And I've been thinking about this for many years. So much so that, like the organization I work for, Reveal, we were going to do a serialized story about hip hop in the 90s through the lens of Tupac and Biggie's death. This was many years ago, and when we did that, we actually had our lawyer sue the Las Vegas Police Department to get the files on Tupac's death. And we won. And so the files that everybody references now from the investigation that the Las Vegas Police Department, that was all because of our amazing lawyer, is this you
- [32:19]
Jeff Pearlman
trying to get 10% of my sales? Because I did.
- [32:23]
Al Letson
I wanted to lull you in and make you feel like we're buddies and then tell you like, you owe me some money. You actually owe Vicky some money.
- [32:33]
Jeff Pearlman
In and out on me. In and out.
- [32:35]
Al Letson
Burn. There you go. There you go. The question I have is I remember when we first got the. When we first got the files, and I remember thinking that according to the interviews that were in the files, it was clear that the Las Vegas Police Department had leads that they just didn't follow up on. When you saw those files and you had way more time to check into it, what'd you take away from it?
- [33:04]
Jeff Pearlman
So I think it's really interesting. It's a great question. So the night he died, it was a Mike Tyson, Bruce Seldon fight in Vegas at the MGM Grant. And I interviewed one of the first cop to get to Tupac was actually a bicycle cop. He was on a bike and he's the first one on the scene. And he told me Very honestly and blatantly, he said Vegas police officers hated Mike Tyson Knights because you would just get all of these gang bangers descending upon Las Vegas and overtaken the city. So he said you would have significantly fewer officers on duty than you would think for a bunch of quote unquote, gang bangers descending upon Las Vegas because nobody wanted to work, because they all hated it. So I think in a lot of ways, there's probably some embarrassment from the Vegas Police Department and. Or the. The. Whatever the staff would be for how lightly it was sort of even just handled and how limited the scope was. And literally, the first guy to get to the scene is guy riding on his Huffy to the scene. I always think it's a funny scene. This guy pulls up on Suge Knight's car crashed on the side of the road, with a dying Tupac slinking out of the car. And the first guy to get there is a guy on his bike with a bike helmet. It's the most incongruous scene ever. I think they were undermanned and unprepared and like many police departments, kind of unwilling to admit that. You know, I also think Tupac's death. When I entered this book, when I entered the process, when I first started, I. I was like, this is the dumbest death ever. And leaving the book, usually you're like, you write a book and everything changes you because you interview so many people and you have so much exposure. But I ended this book thinking, this is the dumbest death ever, too. Like, the whole thing just pisses me off to this day, because it was like, what.
- [34:56]
Al Letson
What is it about it that that drives you crazy?
- [34:59]
Jeff Pearlman
Because it actually makes me angry. I swear to God. Like, Tupac is. Was one of the great artists in American music history, in my opinion. And he was profoundly smart and in many ways, incredibly enlightened. And there's no reason he shouldn't have his 12th Academy Award now, or there's no reason he shouldn't be the governor of California, or there's no. Like, he had just an endless reserve of talent. And he's in the lobby of the MGM grand after a fight, and he's all hopped up on him, you know, whatever, just weed and adrenaline. And he's standing next to a guy, and they see Orlando Anderson of the Compton Crips, and there had recently been a fight at a mall between the Crips and the Bloods, and Orlando Anderson snatched the chain of Trayvon Lane. And Trayvon Lane says to Tupac, yo, that's a Guy who took my chain. Which guy? The guy right there in the Dan Marino jersey. He was wearing a big Miami Dolphins jersey. And Tupac walks up to him and punches him in the face. They all, you know, stomp Orlando Anderson. I interviewed friends of Orlando Anderson and people who knew him, and it was like, it was the audacity of getting beat up by a rapper. Like, you're going to return to Compton as a member of the Southside Compton Crips having just gotten your ass publicly kicked by a rapper. No, like, you're not doing it. Stupid, but you're not doing it. And later on that night, Orlando, his uncle Keefe D, two other guys, Compton crypto affiliated, are driving around, kind of giving up on their search, trying to find Tupac. And then they see him hanging, hanging out of Suge's Mercedes, hollering at women as they walk by. Meanwhile, Tupac's fiance is back at the hotel. And they're like, yo, there he is. There's Park. Where? Right there, hanging out the window. They pull up on him and they shoot him and they kill him. Like, Tupac Shakur was the son of a Black Panther. Like Tupac Shakur was a revolutionary. Tupac Shakur grew up again reading about UEP Newton, reading about the heroes of the movement. And you die like that. That's what you died for. Stomping some guy out after a Mike Tyson fight in an MGM grant because he stole your friend's chain. It's so shameful. And everyone I talked to, I mean, everyone I talked to, black, white, young, old, gang affiliated librarian, felt the same exact way. That a guy that great, without much greatness, dying that way is just a complete and total waste of life.
- [37:29]
Al Letson
I mean, I think that's why a lot of the conspiracy theories come up, is because it needs to mean something more than he got killed for beating somebody down over a chain. Like, it just doesn't seem right.
- [37:46]
Jeff Pearlman
It sucks. It's the dumbest death ever. I swear to God. I think everyone always wants which celebrity. I know you've seen this. Like, or James Dean's car accident. What really happened? He probably just got in a car accident. Marilyn Monroe. How did she die? Surprises. Overdose. Like, we want these things with celebrities to mean something because it makes us feel something, I guess. But, like, Tupac died because he had a really impulsive, stupid reaction. He felt like he needed to represent when the best thing he could have done was go back to his hotel room and hang out with his really lovely, really beautiful, really smart fiance. But he just wasn't in him at that age. He was 25 and impulsive.
- [38:29]
Al Letson
So what does Tupac mean in the larger story of America?
- [38:37]
Jeff Pearlman
I've been thinking about this a lot, actually. I live in Southern California. We had all the ice raids happen recently and still do, but, like. And you had all these young, not even just young brown people being grabbed off the streets right, by police. And I thought it was very interesting how Ice Cube, who lives out here, didn't say a thing. Dr. Dre, not a thing. Snoop Dogg, not a thing. And I'm not saying the onus should be on black celebrities. I need to hear Taylor Swift or Mandy Moore or Olivia Rodrigo saying a thing either. But I'm just saying, like, they didn't say a thing. I can't say what tupac at age 54 would be doing with his life, but there's no way in hell Tupac is just watching cops or masked agents grab brown people off the streets and sits there. And I think the difference between Tupac and all these other artists, like, those guys were all very, very were great, all time great hip hop storytellers, right? But Tupac viewed himself as a revolutionary. And Tupac always carried with him the Black Panther ethos. Standing up for your people, self reliance, black empowerment. He got that from his mom. For good and for bad and everywhere in between, he got that from his mom. And I honestly think what Tupac. The reason Tupac resonates so powerfully more than Biggie, more than Chuck D, more than whoever you want to pick, like, the reason he resonates and radiates his thing is because really, it was a combination of hip hop and Black Panther, and it was a combination of not just like, here's a great song, but go yourself. Like, this is who I am and I'm going to fight for my people. And I just think that still really resonates in a really powerful way. And it came in the package of an awesomely talented writer slash rapper.
- [40:34]
Al Letson
Jeff Pearlman is the author of Only God Can Judge Me, the Many Lives of Tupac Shakur. And he is a prolific sports writer. And he's on TikTok at jeffperelman author. He's a great follow, which is. This is literally how I found Jeff. Check him out. Jeff, thanks so much for talking to me today.
- [40:52]
Jeff Pearlman
Would you. Well, I just want to ask, would you say of all the white sports writers, to write a Tupac book, this is the finest offering, I would say,
- [40:59]
Al Letson
of any writer to write a book.
- [41:00]
Jeff Pearlman
Oh, thank you.
- [41:05]
Al Letson
Jeff Pearlman is the author of only God can judge the many lives of Tupac Shakur. If you like this episode, I think you should check out a conversation I had last year with Brandon Scott, the mayor of Baltimore. One of the youngest mayors in that city's history, Scott has been working towards reducing gun violence and finding some success. We'll put a link to that episode in our show notes. Lastly, a reminder, we are listener supported. That means listeners like you, you can help us thrive by making a gift today. Just go to revealnews.org gift again, that's revealnews.org gift and thank you. This episode was produced by members of the Justice Society the Josh sanburn and Carl McGurk Allison with help from Joanie Binder. Takitel Nidis edited the show theme music and engineering helped by Fernando my man Yo Aruda and Jay Breezy. Mr. Jim Briggs, I'm Al Letson and let's do this again next week. This is more to the story.
- [42:22]
Jeff Pearlman
From prx.