Podcast Episode Summary
Podcast: Reveal
Episode: What Is Riley Gaines Hiding? We Investigated.
Air Date: November 26, 2025
Hosted by: Al Letson (Reveal), Pablo Torre (Pablo Torre Finds Out)
Reported by: Madison Pauley
Overview of Main Theme
This investigative episode, a collaboration between Reveal and Pablo Torre Finds Out, takes a deep, forensic look into the rise of Riley Gaines from a decorated college swimmer to a central figure in the anti-trans movement in sports. It scrutinizes Riley Gaines's personal narrative, how her story has been leveraged in right-wing political advocacy, and what is omitted or obscured regarding the broader issues in American women's athletics. The episode rigorously fact-checks Gaines’s claims, examines the culture of women’s college athletics, and explores the significant financial and political machinery behind her rapid ascent.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Rise of Riley Gaines (02:53 – 05:14)
- Profiled as the "Regina George" of the anti-trans movement.
- Tied for fifth with trans swimmer Lia Thomas at NCAA championships, which Gaines and Trump later positioned as a watershed injustice in women’s sports.
- Donald Trump’s executive order banning trans women from women's sports uses Gaines as a key symbolic supporter.
Notable Quote:
- Donald Trump (04:42):
"The fleague forced her to share a spot on the podium with a male swimmer who took her trophy while the media celebrated this stolen glory. ... People that aren't that well versed in this would say she was the leader. And great job, Riley. Thank you very much."
2. The Narrative Machine—How Gaines’s Story is Framed (05:25 – 07:44)
- Focus quickly shifts from sports fairness to claims of victimization and “invasion” by trans women.
- Anti-trans advocacy rapidly influences state and national policies.
Notable Quote:
- Madison Pauley (06:43):
"You hear it all the time... The idea that trans women are 'invading women's spaces and putting them at risk.' It's been incredibly effective. ... 29 states have banned trans women and trans girls from women's athletics."
3. The Making of an Anti-Trans Star: Behind the Scenes at Kentucky (11:09 – 18:19)
- Examines Gaines’s college swimming career and her head coach Lars Jorgensen’s highly pressurized, allegedly abusive team culture.
- Alumni and former teammates speak candidly about the toxic environment, emotional/psychological harm, and even disordered eating, not mentioned in Gaines’s memoir.
- The contrast between Gaines’s public framing of women’s sports victimhood and the inside reality of college athletics.
Notable Quotes:
-
Trinity Ward, former teammate (17:21):
"It's like, okay, this person is one of the best swimmers on her team. And you're making jokes about her being fat... I can't think of a single teammate ... where now I'm like, wow, that person was really confident in themselves and their body..." -
Madison Pauley (18:27):
"You wouldn’t get any of this [toxic team culture] if you read Riley’s memoir. She does call some of his comments 'utter savagery' but says it was to make them better."
4. The 2022 NCAA Championships: What Really Happened? (25:32 – 35:48)
- The pivotal meet: Dissecting the media and political myth versus the mundane reality of the infamous race.
- Gaines tied for fifth with Lia Thomas in the 200-yard freestyle. The actual race was notably less dramatic than headlines suggested.
- Former teammates recall Gaines as dissatisfied (but not especially targeted or victimized) and note that Thomas’s locker room conduct was discreet and respectful.
Notable Quotes:
-
Anonymous Teammate (35:42):
"Any of the times I would see her [Lia Thomas] in there, she's wrapped in her towel, she's turned around, not facing anyone. I felt bad for her. ... She just wanted to come and swim." -
Pablo Torre (34:51):
"The template for how a trans athlete is not merely someone who's going to take your trophy... They're going to be predators preying on your daughters."
5. Explosion into Politics and Media, and the Financial Incentives (36:48 – 51:47)
- Gaines becomes a central right-wing media and political figure, appearing in campaign ads and Fox News.
- Her story is amplified by well-funded conservative networks (Turning Point USA, Independent Women's Forum, Leadership Institute).
- Financial records reveal rapidly increasing speaking fees and a lucrative career—speaker fees octuple in two years, her center at the Leadership Institute brings in $126,523 in 5 months, significant donations from GOP mega-donors (e.g., Betsy DeVos/Orlando Magic owners).
Notable Quotes:
- Madison Pauley (47:12):
"Over the last three years speaker fees for Riley Gaines, as paid by various state and local Republican committees, have more than octupled."
6. Legal Battles as a New Front (54:43 – 63:37)
- Gaines fronts lawsuits aiming to make trans exclusion from sports permanent, marshaled by right-wing attorneys (e.g., Bill Bock, closely tied to Trump).
- ICONS (Independent Council on Women's Sports)—a fast-growing nonprofit, now with a million-dollar budget, funds these lawsuits.
- Next year the Supreme Court will hear pivotal cases on Title IX and trans athletes—outcomes that could invalidate scores of state bans.
7. The Real Scandals in Women’s Sports: Abuse and Accountability (66:33 – 73:20)
- Even as Gaines focuses on trans athletes, explosive revelations emerge about her own college coach, Lars Jorgensen:
- Multiple swimmers allege sexual assault, harassment, and creating a toxic, abusive environment.
- In 2024, two former team members file a lawsuit including accusations of rape and harassment.
- Jorgensen is banned for life by the U.S. Center for Safe Sport.
- Gaines issues a brief tweet expressing feeling “blindsided and betrayed” but has otherwise said very little or defended Jorgensen publicly as a “fantastic coach” even after allegations surfaced.
- The report highlights the disconnect between the right-wing narrative (which frames trans women as the biggest threat to women in sports) and the very real abuses perpetrated by (cisgender, powerful) male coaches.
Notable Quotes:
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Madison Pauley (74:14):
"She has just been churning out all of this material about sexual abusers in sports, in her framing of it, transgender women. ... But one tweet about Coach Lars." -
Trinity Ward (79:41):
"It's hard for me to care about Riley Gaines tying for fifth when my swim coach is accused of raping my teammates. ... People shut up pretty quickly after that."
Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes
-
On the transformation of Gaines’s public persona:
"If you told me four years ago that Riley Gaines was going to be the spokesperson for the anti trans movement be speaking with Trump, I'd be like, what? You're crazy. Like, she doesn't even actually like him." – Trinity Ward (23:22) -
On the constructed victim narrative:
"It is the story that doesn't die. … She says, 'I am in full support of her [Lia Thomas] … because there's no doubt that she works hard, too, that she's just abiding by the rules.'" – Madison Pauley (31:36)
Important Timestamps
- Riley Gaines’s Origin and Trump’s Executive Order: 03:17–05:14
- Teammates on Toxic Culture at Kentucky: 13:24–18:19
- Media Creation of Victim Narrative: 29:49–31:55
- Locker Room Fact-Check & Fox News Narrative: 35:02–36:10
- Political Ascent and Financial Incentives: 47:12–51:47
- Legal Strategy & Supreme Court Stakes: 54:43–64:43
- Coach Jorgensen Allegations & Gaines’ Public Response: 66:56–76:31
- Trinity Ward’s Closing Reflection: 79:41
Flow & Tone
The episode embarks with measured skepticism and investigative rigor, sustaining a tone of moral seriousness while incorporating moments of dark irony and empathy from reporters and sources. Pablo Torre and Madison Pauley’s banter keeps the narrative engaging and accessible. Crucially, the episode persists in letting primary voices—especially Gaines’s former teammates—bring depth and credibility to its revelations.
Conclusion
Bottom line:
The episode argues that the “threat” to women's sports spotlighted by Riley Gaines and the right is a carefully constructed and financially lucrative narrative—one that distracts from more pervasive, proven harms like abuse by trusted authority figures. In contextualizing Gaines’s activism and career, the reporters ask listeners to reconsider not only the truth of Gaines’s personal story, but also whose interests are truly served by her prominence and which problems in women’s sports deserve real scrutiny.
Last Word
"It's hard for me to care about Riley Gaines tying for fifth when my swim coach is accused of raping my teammates. ... People shut up pretty quickly after that."
— Trinity Ward, former teammate of Riley Gaines (79:41)