Podcast Summary: Reveal – "Why Trump Deemed Basic Sanitation Illegal DEI"
Original Air Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Al Letson
Guest: Kathryn Coleman Flowers (Environmental Justice Activist, Author)
Episode Overview
In this gripping episode, host Al Letson talks with Kathryn Coleman Flowers—one of America's leading environmental justice activists—about the widespread crisis of basic sanitation and water access across the United States. The discussion exposes how poor infrastructure, climate change, and policy failures, including actions by the Trump administration, have left millions at risk, cutting across race and class lines. Flowers details her decades-long fight for clean water and sanitation, shares stories of communities in crisis, explains the consequences of environmental neglect and deregulation, and reflects on her new book "Holy Ground." The episode highlights the intersection of civil rights, environmental harm, and political will in America today.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Widespread Nature of Sanitation & Water Issues
- Flowers dispels the notion that sanitation problems are limited to poor, rural, or Black communities.
- Urban infrastructure is failing: major cities like Detroit and New York are experiencing sewage backup during heavy rains.
- Quote [00:02]:
“We have to expand the definition of environmental justice because we can't let people think that…if you are not black and poor, you are not going to be victimized by this. That's not true.”
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers
Infrastructure, Climate Change & Marginalization
- Sewage, septic, and water systems are outdated—built for a smaller population and less severe weather.
- Climate change (stronger storms, heavier rainfall) exacerbates failures.
- Wealth alone can't insulate communities: affluent areas and predominantly white towns like East Palestine, Ohio, also suffer.
- Quote [03:52]:
"Infrastructure has not been designed to keep up with demands of a changing climate… We all drink the same water."
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers
Kathryn’s Personal Journey into Activism
- Started activism in high school, fighting for better education in Alabama.
- Discovered the sanitation crisis when working on economic development: realized businesses wouldn’t invest in regions with failing water and sewage systems.
- Shocked when she witnessed families arrested for raw sewage—prompting her to act.
- Quote [07:27]:
"I was unhappy about [missing classes for parties] because I wanted to go to college. And I felt like my education was being shortchanged."
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers
The Cost and Complexity of Septic Systems
- Septic installation in Lowndes County can cost $26,000 per household—completely unaffordable for many.
- State regulations are strict, and penalties for noncompliance fall on homeowners.
- The designs don’t keep up with climate realities.
- Other states have revolving loan funds for septic systems, but Alabama offers little support.
The Federal Civil Rights Complaint and Trump Administration Rollback
- Flowers’ group filed a federal civil rights complaint after finding tropical parasites (including hookworm) from raw sewage in Alabama.
- For the first time, the DOJ used civil rights law to address environmental justice, resulting in a settlement for mitigation.
- When Trump took office, the administration deemed the resolution “illegal DEI” and withdrew federal support.
- Quote [17:41]:
“That ended in February of this year when the current administration took office and put on their website for DOJ that they were backing out of the agreement because it was illegal DEI.”
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers
DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) Used as a Political Weapon
- Al Letson and Flowers discuss how “DEI” is now weaponized to roll back environmental programs that disproportionately help marginalized groups.
- The state of Alabama, left with some funds, continues helping where it can.
Reflections from "Holy Ground" & the 30 Pieces of Silver Metaphor
- Inspiration: Leave people with hope, teach resilience, and the importance of overcoming adversity.
- Uses the Biblical betrayal of Jesus for 30 pieces of silver as a metaphor for American society choosing short-term, often divisive solutions.
- Quote [24:09]:
"[…] The best way to help people to see this was to use that common understanding of the story of Judas and then try to get them to apply it to what's happening today."
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers
Reactions to the 2024 Election & Trump’s Return
- Flowers expresses confusion and concern, drawing on Biblical stories of exile and wandering.
- She believes Americans took democracy and rights for granted and are now awakening to their fragility.
- Quote [25:03]:
"We took democracy for granted. We took freedom. We took the right to vote for granted. And now people are saying that we can't take it for granted…"
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers
Is Environmental Justice a Partisan Issue?
- Flowers argues environmental harm is nonpartisan: lack of regulation and neglect will affect rich, poor, Black, and white alike.
- Predicts new political engagement as deregulation leads to more visible, widespread harm.
The Next Frontier: Data Centers and New Environmental Threats
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AI and computing data centers strain local power grids and water supplies; the true scope of their impact remains uncertain.
-
Disproportionate impacts: differences in how centers are powered across communities.
-
Economic promises rarely materialize as advertised for local populations; costs are externalized.
-
Quote [28:59]:
"We don't really seem to wake up until the harms are already done and they're irreversible."
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers
Memorable Quotes & Moments
-
On the universality of environmental injustice:
“We all drink the same water. […] Everybody is impacted by it. It's just that the communities that have the greatest impact tend to be those communities that are poor.”
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers [04:55] -
On DEI being weaponized:
"That ended in February of this year when the current administration took office and put on their website […] that they were backing out of the agreement because it was illegal DEI."
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers [17:41] -
On data centers and environmental harm:
“The power that's used to power a data center could power 80,000 homes. […] There’s not an equal way in which they're being built…who’s negotiating? And who's paying the bill?”
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers [29:36] -
On the intersection of faith and justice:
“If Christ were to come across the southern border right now, would ICE place him under arrest?”
– Kathryn Coleman Flowers [26:46]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:02 – Expanding the definition of environmental justice
- 03:52 – National scope of infrastructure failure and environmental overlap
- 07:27 – Flowers’ high school activism origins
- 10:53 – Challenges with septic systems and poverty in Lowndes County
- 13:39 – Regulatory and financial barriers, state responsibility
- 15:24 – The federal civil rights complaint and its repudiation by Trump
- 17:41 – Rollback justified as “illegal DEI”—implications
- 22:17 – Insights from “Holy Ground”; personal resilience and hope
- 24:09 – 30 pieces of silver: betrayal metaphor for American choices
- 25:03 – Reflections on the 2024 election and political crossroads
- 28:59 – Data centers: new environmental harms, lack of community benefit
Tone & Final Thoughts
The conversation is urgent, honest, and hopeful—balancing despair at political and climate failures with a vision for resilient, inclusive activism. Flowers champions pragmatic solutions and broad coalitions, reminding listeners that the fight for clean water and environmental justice is everyone’s fight.
Al Letson closes with:
“We thought that you could go to the courts for justice all of the time. But now other people are saying that it’s not just that. When we talk about justice, you're not just talking about black people. We're talking about being an American citizen.” [25:45]
Recommended next listen: The Reveal episode “The Great Arizona Water Grab” for more on the scramble for clean water resources.