Podcast Summary: Revenue Builders

Episode: Breaking Down the Critical Role of a Manager with Scott Rudy

Release Date: September 14, 2025
Hosts: John McMahon (Five-time CRO) & John Kaplan (Co-Founder, Force Management)
Guest: Scott Rudy, CRO at XYWave

Episode Overview

In this episode of Revenue Builders, hosts John McMahon and John Kaplan are joined by Scott Rudy to dissect the pivotal functions and complexities of first and second line sales managers. The discussion zeroes in on why these roles are so foundational to organizational growth, how responsibilities can become muddled, and actionable strategies for creating consistency, accountability, and success across sales leadership layers. The trio dives deep into best practices for developing, onboarding, and supporting new frontline sales leaders, with a special emphasis on the partnership required between first and second line managers to drive seller effectiveness.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Importance and Challenge of the First Line Manager Role

• Scott Rudy’s Perspective

  • “I think it's one of the most important roles, maybe the most important role in the whole growth engine. I also think it's one of the most challenging. It's where the rubber meets the road.” (00:31)
  • Success of individual sellers (seller success) should be the #1 objective for first line managers, in addition to making the number.
  • The first line manager is expected to deliver a truly accurate forecast, serving as a direct link between strategy and results. (00:31-01:06)

• John McMahon Adds

  • First line managers, especially those new to leadership, face immense pressure as they move from seller to roles requiring recruiting, onboarding, training, developing, and leading—skills they may not have previously developed. (01:06)
  • Companies often fail to create real clarity and division of responsibilities between first and second line managers, leading to confusion and redundancy.

2. Distinction (or Lack Thereof) Between First and Second Line Managers

• Scott Rudy Explains
  • At many companies, second line managers function like another set of first line managers—“I'll take the left side, you take the right”—without clear differentiation or responsibilities. (01:41)
  • “A great second line leader is doing the kind of coaching necessary to help plug the holes of a new first line leader.” (01:41)
  • Second line leaders should simplify the job for first line managers, preventing overwhelm, especially amid high-growth phases.

3. The Danger of Blurred Responsibilities

• John McMahon Observes
  • The lack of segregated duties results in confusion, both for managers and their reps:
    “A lot of leaders haven't sat down and segregated responsibilities... that's why also the reps are wondering why they're getting the same questions from the first line manager as they are from the second line manager.” (02:27)
  • Redundancy leads to demotivation among reps:
    “There's nothing more demoralizing than getting the same question from three different people. And you have to just keep answering it.” (03:41)

4. Best Practices: Creating Consistency and Accountability

• Scott Rudy’s Real-World Example
  • In a fast-growing company (80 to 400 sales reps in eight years), a key obstacle to success was the inconsistent execution by first line managers.
  • Partnered with Force Management to create a “frontline sales leadership playbook,” building a framework of expectation and best practices for 41 first line leaders. (03:41-04:42)

5. Segregation of Duties: Recruiting and Development

• John McMahon Clarifies
  • Segregation doesn’t mean isolating tasks; instead, it’s about shared, but differentiated responsibility:
    • Second line managers should assess and develop personalized development plans for each rep, working collaboratively with first line managers.
    • When making personnel decisions, second and first line managers should have honest dialogues about strengths/weaknesses (using real rep names as hypotheticals) to anchor developmental feedback. (05:29)
    • Quote: “The first line manager talks about it and the second line manager... gives them insight as to what they see and why these should be the first, second, and third development areas.” (05:29)
  • Accountability in performance review: At QBRs, the second line manager must be able to explain rep development and performance plans to the CRO. (05:29-07:40)
  • Recruiting: Decision to hire should be joint, with clear articulation of where a candidate meets—and does not meet—the ideal profile:
    “It's a joint hire. Like, we hire them because they met our profile. Here was where they met our profile... here's the risk that we're associating with this hire.” (07:40)

6. The Second Line Leader as Quality Control

• Scott Rudy Sums Up
  • The second line leader’s focus should be on quality—spotting trends, identifying process gaps, and coaching first line managers where blind spots exist:
    “The second line leader is a lot about quality and observing trends and coaching the first line leader... if there's a blind spot around even the types of interview questions that get asked... they each play a role. But I really like the second line manager focused on quality and being able to spot these trends.” (07:44-08:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Seller success should be the number one kind of objective and North Star..." – Scott Rudy (00:31)
• “A lot of leaders haven't sat down and segregated responsibilities... reps are wondering why they're getting the same questions from the first line manager as they are from the second line manager.” – John McMahon (02:27)
• “There's nothing more demoralizing than getting the same question from three different people.” – Scott Rudy (03:41)
• “A great second line leader is doing the kind of coaching necessary to help plug the holes of a new first line leader.” – Scott Rudy (01:41)
• “The second line leader is a lot about quality and observing trends and coaching the first line leader...” – Scott Rudy (07:44)
• “It's a joint hire... here was where they met our profile and here was where they didn’t meet our profile and here's the risk that we're associating with this hire.” – John McMahon (07:40)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:31: Scott Rudy explains why first line sales managers are the most important and challenging role in sales.
• 01:06: John McMahon breaks down the practical challenges and new responsibilities faced by first line managers.
• 01:41: Discussion of why companies often blur lines between first and second line management and the resulting problems.
• 02:27: John McMahon outlines the consequence for reps when management roles are not clearly divided.
• 03:41: Scott Rudy gives a real-world example of building sales leadership consistency during rapid growth.
• 05:29: The team dives into accountability and the correct segregation of management duties, especially in recruiting and developing talent.
• 07:40: The importance of joint and accountable hiring decisions between first and second line sales leaders.
• 07:44: Scott Rudy articulates the quality control role of the second line leader.

Takeaways for Listeners

• First and second line sales leadership roles should be clearly defined to maximize seller success and minimize confusion/burnout.
• Second line leaders should serve primarily as coaches and quality control agents, supporting—not duplicating—the work of first line managers.
• Accountability must be built into not just outcomes (quota/goals) but also in leadership processes: development planning, recruiting, and performance management.
• Designing and institutionalizing sales leadership playbooks brings consistency, especially in high-growth environments.
• Joint decision-making and collaborative evaluation solidifies team cohesion, development, and hiring accuracy.

This episode offers a masterclass in sales leadership structure, making it a must-listen for anyone responsible for developing sales talent or building a scalable sales organization.