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- [00:05]
A
Welcome to the Revenue Builders podcast, a weekly show featuring B2B sales leaders and executives. Hosted by five time CRO John McMahon and Force Management co founder John Kaplan, the show goes behind the scenes with the people who have been there, done that and seen the results. If you enjoy our content, please subscribe, rate and review the show to help us reach more people. Revenue Builders is brought to you by Force Management. We help companies improve sales performance, executing the growth strategy at the point of sale. Find us@Force Management.com enjoy today's episode.
- [00:43]
B
Welcome to the Revenue Builders podcast. I'm John McMahon and I'm joined by my co host, the one, the only, John Kaplan. Morning, Cap.
- [00:53]
C
Morning, buddy. How are you, dude?
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B
Doing great. And Cap, we got a great guest today. It's one that you know very well. Yeah, the extremely talented. Sometimes goes by the nickname the Ginger Prince. The one and only absolute Jeremy Duggan. Say hi to Jeremy.
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C
Jeremy, dude, it's so great to see you, buddy. Thanks for coming on again.
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D
Great to see you guys as well. I see you've. You changed your appearance, John, since we last spoke.
- [01:19]
C
A little bit, dude. A little bit.
- [01:20]
D
No, he look. He looks like your head's on upside down. Yeah. Your hair's falling down from where it should be to where it shouldn't be.
- [01:30]
C
Oh, that's a good one, buddy. That's a good one. You're lucky. You're lucky. So I can't smack you.
- [01:37]
D
He probably has a couple scheduled for about an hour. And I've. I've built a load of content primarily based around beer jokes. So we could. I could probably go on for an hour and a half. Maybe, maybe two if we want to throw that content in. I'd be looking forward to this one.
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B
Well, we. You can throw those beard jokes in anytime you want, Jeremy.
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D
Okay, good.
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C
Good to know.
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D
I might drop a few in as we go along.
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C
Remember, guys, I've always told you your secrets are safe with me, but if you. If you attack me today, it's all bets are off.
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D
Okay, I need to think about. I need to think about the quality of the jokes versus what you could reveal to work out.
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C
That's right.
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D
I think I'll probably leave the beer jokes. I think you probably got quite a lot.
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C
Wait, you got to tell me that again. What was it? My head is upside down.
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D
Yeah, it looks like. It looks like.
- [02:22]
C
That's brilliant, dude. That's so brilliant.
- [02:24]
D
Falling down to where. Where. Where it shouldn't be brilliant. Yeah.
- [02:30]
B
So, guys, today we're going to discuss a pretty important Topic for a lot of leaders out there, leadership and management. Really like, what is leadership? What is management? What's the differences between the two? When should I manage, when should I lead? And then most importantly, you know how to do it properly. So, you know, Jeremy, you so often do and I do, you know, I speak to a lot of sales leaders that are struggling with understanding the simple difference between managing and leading. You what does it mean to manage? What does it mean to lead? You know, when do I manage, when do I lead? And once I understand the differences, you know, how do I become a great leader? So those are some of the items that Cap and I want to discuss with you today.
- [03:17]
D
Yeah, great. And I think it's a, a really important one. And I think, I think what, what hopefully I, I'll do in, in this session is like, I do with everything. I've said this to you before a thousand times, John, like I'm never, you know, the, the smartest guy in any room. And what I've tried to do throughout my career is, is take like important concepts or strategies or, or tactics or anything like that and simplify them as much as possible. And so I've thought about, about this, this question a lot because it's one that gets asked a lot. And you know, for me to simplify it, I would, I would say firstly, the difference between a leader and a manager is that a manager wants the work to be great and the leader wants the people to be great, which then makes the work great, right? So leader comes at it from, from a people perspective and then, and then the work will come, right? And that's why you see when, when you have, you know, great leaders, right, they drive loyalty, they drive respect, you know, you become friends, all those kind of things, and you see all that. And so for me, if I was to keep it really simple and what I've told leaders who work for me throughout my career is the bottom line is I think that the best leaders, they genuinely, deeply and truly care for their people. They prioritize their people over results because they know that if you prioritize the people and you make them great, the results will come anyway and they'll be consistent. They won't just be one off because you're developing and training them. I think great leaders realize that the biggest thrill that you can get in your career comes from the growth of a person, not a deal, right? Because the deals and revenues will come if you dedicate yourself to the people. And then the final thing, and this is what I'll Say to everybody is the best leaders ultimately want to change the lives of, of their people and they want to change the lives of their people forever. Right. And if this is your daily mantra, I think you're on, on the, the first step to, to becoming a great leader. If you really want to take everybody in your team and change their life for the better forever and you, you dictate, everything you're doing is, is towards driving those people, developing them, inspiring them, all the things that are going to go into changing somebody's life. I think if you do that, you, you, you'll become a great leader. So that's how I've simplified it in my head. That makes sense.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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C
Hey Johnny. Hey Johnny. I want to ask you guys a quick question because this. And let's get it off the table right away. So, Jeremy, I agree with you a thousand percent. What I find sometimes is people misinterpret what you're saying and they say I got to make it all about the people. And therefore what I do is I try to be friends with the people. I create kind of like an us versus them mentality with corporate or with, you know, it's our team and then we go native and I'm with my team and I have a responsibility to protect the company. But when I'm so intimate with my people, sometimes I get confused on that. Can you both kind of comment on that? Because I think it's really important.
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B
Well, I think what Jeremy said is the most important is that you're there to lead your people, give them a vision. You're there to develop the people. So, so you're not really there to just be their friends. Because if you're just their friend, but you're not developing them, making them more competent so they can do the job without you, then you're not really leading.
- [06:46]
D
Yeah, I think, I mean, absolutely. And. Well, actually, one of the points I would have. If you, if you think about what that looks like in action, which is, which is what your point is, John, how do you take that kind of overview and turn it into what it looks like in action as there's a number of things you can look at. I think, I think one of the things that's a big challenge for leaders, which is based on exactly what you just said, is how do you, how do you have difficult conversations with people? How do you, how do you do things where people aren't going to be happy, what you're with, what you're saying to them or what you're asking them to do, but you do it anyway. And, and I think, I think the reason that if you're, if your whole goal as a leader is to change somebody's life and you're in that job by definition because you're really great at the job they're trying to do, sometimes they might not be coachable, they might have, at that point, they might not have the experience at that point, they might think they know a better way to do it. So you've got to go through that, that period where they're not going to like you very much because you're telling them something that they don't want to hear. Right? So being able, so being a leader isn't just about being mates with people at all, it's about, it's about leading them. I'll give you, I'll give you a great example. Recent one from, from Multiverse. We had a really, really great young kid joined us called, called Noah Stevenson. You know, this, this kid, he's tall, he's good looking, but you know, got a first from Cambridge, you know, great start to his career. And we hired him just at the time that I was joining Multiverse. And at the time he was coming in as a, as an inside sales rep. And when he was joining the quote, it was 600K. And then, you know, when me and Stevie, Matt went in, we took a look at the quotas and how we were going to change the messaging and all that kind of stuff. And we figured that, you know, the inside sales should be, should be a million. And we were going to develop the team and give them the skills and the tools and the messaging to, to make that achievable. So Noah comes in and, and he's, you know, he's, Noah's, you know, he's a confident kid. He's, you know, pretty, you know, full of himself as he probably should be. So he kind of hears this number from his manager and he says, well, I don't think that's right. You told me it was 600k coming in and now it's a million. It's not fair. Fair enough. So the manager comes to me and says, well, I don't really want to, I don't know what to do about this, you know. So I said, well, no problem. I'll have a call with Noah. So I have a call with Noah. Explain the logic behind it, the facts, the reasoning, what it means for him. He's going to learn all these new ideas that he's never had. He's going to develop him for the future. And at the end of the call, I've given him all this logic and he says, well, that all makes sense, Jeremy, but I'm still incredibly pissed off because, well spoken English guy, you know, still incredibly pissed off about this quota change. So what I look at there is, I'm kind of laughing inside, right? Because this is the cocky young kid who's got a load of potential. But what I see is this is, this is a lack of coachability because he's heard all the facts and logic, but he's still pissed off. So I say to Noah, well, guess what, kid, this conversation just all changed around, right? So you come in this conversation, you're thinking, I'm selling to you on why you should stay with this new quote. And you were right. I was happy to do that. Now you're reapplying for your job, right? And so you've got 24 hours to get your job back, right? And I want you to go away, listen to what I said, listen to the logic, right? And let me know if you still, if someone stand, if you do convince me why, why you should, because what you've done isn't that smart. So anyway, comes back 24 hours later, he says, I get your logic, I get your arguments. I shouldn't have reacted the way I reacted. I want to learn. This is why I came, right? The kid comes in. What, what changed in that moment was he recognized that he was being uncoachable and he became coachable right in that moment because he saw facts and logic and, and a different way of doing things he hadn't experienced in his first year. He was a top inside sales rep, right? By a mile. Got promoted, be an enterprise rep in his first year, top enterprise rep, right? Got promoted to RD first year as an RD, top RD. And now he's an AVP. And the kid's 26, right? Incredibly talented, talented boy. And, and when I think about that story back to your. What you're saying, John, is what ultimately happened there was, you know, I cared enough about this kid to, to risk upsetting him and to risk maybe, maybe he walks, right? Because I wanted him to do great and I knew he had the potential to do great. But if he was going to do, be able to do great, he had to be coachable. He had to listen to people around him. He had to, you know, you know, understand what, what he needed to do to do differently. And if on his first day at work he's coming in and telling everybody what the quotas should be that's not a guy who's going to listen that he needs to pipeline, generate every week. You see what I mean? So I, I think, you know, we're hitting this point straight on, John. One of the. One of the big things about leadership is you've got to be able to have those difficult conversations. But if you're coming at it from the perspective that you genuinely want to help people and you genuinely want to change their life and you genuinely want to make a difference to their life, you've got nothing to fear in those difficult conversations because your intent is always good. It's only if your intent is bad that you should be worried about those things. And if you want to change someone's life and that's your goal, your intent is great. So it gives you confidence in those times.
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B
Yeah. So what you did is you have his best interest at heart. You know, it's genuine, it's authentic. And one of the best ways to be a great leader is to also be very intimate with your people. Intimate with their strengths, their weaknesses, their. Their fears, their doubts, their insecurities, those types of things. Because if you really want to motivate people, if you really want to develop them, if you really want to make them more competent as a leader, the more intimate you are with your people, the better off you're going to be versus a manager who's probably looking at all his people as if they're the same, and then cookie cuttering, you know, their management style across all those people. That's management versus what you described as leadership.
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D
Yeah.
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C
Hey. So one thing I want everybody to listen to in this. First of all, Jeremy, that was incredible. That's a. That segment right there. We could just clip and. And is. Is powerful. No, no, no, no. That was good, too. But Noah's story, I think, was amazing. But for leaders out there, I want you to hear this, because as I'm listening to Johnny Mac and. And to Jeremy, I'm thinking, everybody loves to be led. This is one thing you have to believe in your heart. Everybody loves to be led, provided they believe you can take them to a place that you can't get to, that they can't get to on their own. And so I think what happened to Noah was, is that you kind of showed him that your interest is to take him to a place that he might not be able to see or might not be able to get there on his own. That is a really huge characteristic of leadership. Do you guys agree?
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B
Yeah.
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D
Yeah, no doubt. And I think you make a really good point there, John. If you move on to kind of a second view on leadership in action, which is the point you made, was they want to be led, but they've got to believe they're being led in the right direction. And this is, this is where if, if you're then breaking it, breaking things, things down, then you, the, the, the place you almost have to start as a leader when you, when you've got this concept, right, you want to change people's eyes, you've got to know how to do it. So that, that starts with, with you know, the work, a lot of work, right? And so you know Stevie Max, you know who I've worked with, you guys know him for a long time. He's the best at this. Because what you, what you've got as a leader is you've got a situation where you've got to understand what great looks like, right? Otherwise you can't lead, drive people down that, that path. And so you know, the three of us and all, all the people that you interview, we spent you know, years and years and years understanding and, and adapting and, and tweaking this, this playbook that we all use, whether it be, you know, medic as a sales process, BVAs, PG, the three Rs, whatever it might be, we've been like honing that all the way through because that's your, your roadmap to success, right? And so then when you've done that work and you understand and you continue updating it, then that's what you use for the, for the development of your people, right? And you know, it's got to be in many different ways, got to be formal, it's got to be one to ones, it's got to be on the job and all that kind of stuff. But then what I find what happens then is people, a lot of, a lot of leaders, they know this playbook and they intrinsically understand it, but on a day to day basis they get really busy because there's so many things going on. You've got to, you've got to go on sales calls, you've got to recruit, you've got to, you've got to, you know, you know, update you know, the leaders on what's going on. You've got to update Salesforce or whatever it is. And so then what can happen is sales, sales leaders will then stop looking at the, the actual development data, right? Like the leading indicators that, that are making, that are making people successful or showing where they're not successful. So you can spot those Gaps. So you've got to have a program. Stevie Mac, for example, he builds a dashboard for every salesperson in his organization. At times been, it's been up to 250 people. And every Friday afternoon he sits down and he goes through his dashboard about to look at each individual rep, where this, where they're hitting the leading indicators that we know make them successful, where they're missing, right? And then you'll do a little report, you'll send it to the managers and saying, listen, you know, John is doing a great job on pg, but his VO activity is not good. So there might be a translation between, there's obviously a problem between the flip over from PG to VO and, and, you know, getting traction, the vo. So it could be a champion building problem. So what he's doing all the time is he's looking at data and facts and logic based on the playbook that we know makes people great. And he's looking for the development areas of the people. And he's doing it every single week, right. And every single day. And because he's doing it, his managers are doing it as well. And so what you've got then is you've got an environment where you're saying to kids like Noah, we're going to change your life and make you great. And he goes, okay, I buy into that. Going to do everything you need. Then as a leader, you got to, you got to show them that, that map and you got to, you got to bring the goods through the, you know, until, until they get there. And you can't do that unless you know what it takes to be great. And you're looking at it every single day in order to develop your, your people along that, along that road map.
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B
Yeah. So I want to, I want to go inside of what you just said there. That's. And point out some things. First of all, if you're looking at the KPIs and you're looking at the metrics and you're doing the PG to vo at that moment, you're actually doing, you're managing what Stevie Mac did and what you're pointing out is the difference between management and leadership. Then he asks why? Is there a difference between PG and vo? He's asking the why. And he's looking at the individual level now, not just the team. He's looking at the individual level and say, are they missing a certain skill? Are they missing a certain knowledge? Is it a personal issue that's preventing them from achieving these metrics? And then he goes into understanding of the person and what they, in their particular individuality, need to excel at that part of the business. So there's a real. This is saying that some people can lead, but they can't manage. And some people can manage, but they can't lead. And you have to know when, when am I really managing and when am I really leading and what those differences are. And, and that's what I, that's what I hear in the story you just told about Stevie Mac.
- [18:41]
D
Don't you think, John? So I'm thinking out loud about that. Don't you think really management is, is actually a part of leading? Yes, but management on its own is, is just. Just doing the, doing the task. So you need to, you need to manage as a leader. Right, but it's a subset of it. And we need to do both.
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B
We need to do both. But there's plenty of people that try to lead and they don't manage. And there's plenty of people that just manage all the time and they never lead. And we have to know the differences of, you know, when should I manage and when should I lead?
- [19:14]
C
I want to stick on this point.
- [19:16]
B
Really effective in our jobs. You have to be able to do both. To your point.
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C
I want to stick on this point. And we would be remiss if we didn't go deeper here for the audience because, like, we can say that leaders have a good, A good connection to managing and managers have a good connection to leading. And yeah, you might lean one way or the other. That's natural for people to have a natural resting state, but you have to do both. So I want to kind of break down what we're talking about, because, Johnny, you talked about why, Jeremy, you talked about, you know, vision and that kind of stuff. Let's just start with. I think we could agree that leaders really understand that the way to get people's attention, we'll get to playbook and those kind of things. But, you know, I have a fundamental belief that it starts with purpose. Like, the team has to know, like, there's got to be something bigger than themselves. There's got to be a purpose. And Johnny, I remember you and I, years ago, we're sitting in a conference room and I asked you this question and we contemplated it and you were, you know, I was like, when you stand up in front of your group tomorrow, what are you gonna. What is the purpose of the organization? And you just, off your heart, you said, we want to be the most dominant sales organization, or I think you said maybe the most feared sales Organization.
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D
Both.
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C
Both dominant. Yeah, but let's laugh about it for a second. That little company turned out to, you know, it got bought for a billion dollars because they believed. So can we start with purpose, you guys, and give me your thoughts on what you, you know, how do you. How do you really come up with purpose? How do you take what's in the room? How do you take what's on the team and really get a good purpose? Jeremy?
- [21:07]
D
But, I mean, I remember that. That thing which I was talking to John earlier on this week, and, you know, up until that point in my career, I probably was in my mid-30s when I. I worked closely with John, and I remember being in a room when he gave that speech.
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C
Yes.
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D
And. And I hadn't been in a room where a speech like that I'd be given before. And I went out and I gave it a lot of. A lot of thought at the time. And what it. What it meant to me was I knew I was. Why I was there for me, and what I understood when I came out there was why I was there for everybody. And I felt like. I felt like it gave me a bit of a North Star outside of just myself and what I was trying to do and what I was achieved and. And would I be. Would. Would I be proud to be part of it as well? And so I've. I've kind of taken that on in. In my career and done that everywhere I go. And. And you're right, John, it's. It's the right place to start because, you know, if you talk about, like I talk about, you know, leadership is inspiring people and developing them and inspiring people starts with the vision, right? Which is, you know, where we and you are and where we and you could be and the clear path to get there and what the destination looks like. Right. It might be legacy, it might be money, it might be promotions, it might be fame, it might be, you know, could be a whole host of things. And then. So what you're saying is this is the journey that we're going on. This is where we are right now, and this is where. Where we're going to be, and it's going to be hugely desirable for. For everybody. Everybody involved. Right? And when. That's what I heard when. When I was in that room with John, I heard this picture being the most feared and respected salesforce in the world. And this is what it's going to look like for everybody. And I thought, yeah, I'll definitely have a piece of that. That sounds brilliant. I want to Be feared and respected. I'm in, Johnny boy. Sounds like a great plan. Count me in.
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B
You're all in. No, I think to Jeremy's point, vision kind of comes a little bit before purpose. They almost go hand in hand like the vision. You have to ask yourself, you know, to your earlier point, cap, you know, what will we be as a team when we grow up? And to Jeremy's point, do I want to be part of that? Right. And then is it a vision that can get me as the leader excited? And then is it a vision that could get my people excited? And then as the leader, you know, am I willing to take the risks and the challenges that are going to come with some sort of grand vision? Because you're going to get challenges along the way. You know, I think purpose is more like, you know, what is my role, what is my purpose as the leader in the vision and what are the roles and purposes of my people in that vision? How did I contribute to that vision and how do my people contribute to the vision? I think that's how those two like go hand in hand.
- [23:54]
C
I like that. Johnny, I'm not going to disagree with you, but I'm going to try to add something because I've looked at this for many, many years and I've watched many, many leaders. What we're talking about is really how to get out of your head and get your people aligned to you. So I agree with you, Johnny, that the first thing you got to think about is what does it look like in the future? Because I have to build a future that people want to be a part of. That's what Jeremy said. He sat in the room and he's like, okay. And by the way, every human being on the planet has a need to see themselves in the future. Listen to me when I'm saying this, please, audience. You're having SKOs and you know, if you're not talking about what life's going to look like in the future and you can't paint a picture for that individual of how they fit in that future, people are going to leave now, right? I believe, I believe that's what the leader does. I don't believe that's how the leader communicates. Because the first thing I believe that a leader does is, is focuses on the why and gets people emotionally connected to the why. Yes, they know the vision, but they got it's timing and sharing it. And then I believe they got to get people passionate. And a lot of people ask me, well, how do you get, how do you get people passionate. For me, it's simple, it's belief. And I want us to unpack this. Passion comes from belief. Passion comes from belief and then vision for me, Johnny and Jeremy is nothing more than purpose in the future. So that's how I believe those three things go together. I'd like your guys comments on that.
- [25:20]
D
Well, I mean just jumping in on the, on the belief thing because I think you've got, you've nailed it with that, John. And you know it's, it's funny. I've, I've done quite a few scale presentations, John. You've seen some of them, they were brilliant, weren't they? Do you remember those big stage presentation I did? Weren't they great?
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B
You were somebody, you're the best.
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D
You'd be standing, you'd be like applauding me out on your feet, wouldn't you? And just like slapping me on the back of the head.
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B
I was giving you a standing ovation when you were just going up onto the stage.
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D
I know you were. And then, and then there was one night when I did the presentation, you were in the bar that night, you were still standing up and applauding for me. It was really an emotional moment for me.
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C
Jeremy, was that. Just one question though. Did the microphone make a creaking sound when you had to readjust it for your height or was that.
- [26:08]
D
Hey John, listen.
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C
Hey, I gotta get back for the beard dude. I got one onone right now, he's.
- [26:13]
D
Picking a fight that you always make like height reload related jokes, not beard related jokes. Significantly more exposed.
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C
You got to go with what you got, brother.
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D
Fair enough. But so, so out of all the ones I've done, the, the most feedback I got was one that I did once about belief. And I still get messages today from people on LinkedIn from they'd seen the presentation like eight years ago about me talking about belief and, and the reason it's such an important concept because it's if you hear a vision that you love, right, that's brilliant and yet you buy into it. But there's, there's a part of you in your head going well, can we do it? I like it, it sounds great. And I want to, I want to be where, where that's going to be. But is it, is it achievable? So I talk so much about belief and, and I, and this presentation I did, I remember it right. You know, I talked about Roger Bannister, you know the guy who did the first four minute Mile. What I was doing when I was trying to communicate because I've always had this, you know, as a kid I've always had this thought that, that I could be, you know, I could, I could go on and do something better than the environment I was brought up in suggested.
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C
Yeah, dude, just really quick remind us of that environment because I love that part of your story and how this is, it's tied to belief.
- [27:29]
D
Yeah, I mean it just came from, you know, a working class area in the north of England, you know, you know that, you know, I was supposed to be going to be a mechanic when I was at the age of 16 or down a different route, which I didn't really want to go down, you know, living in a council estate, you know, and, and, you know, and, and just you weren't expected to break out of that. You're supposed to, to live in the environment that, that you brought up in and never break out of it. Especially in England where there's this, this big class system as well. And so, but I always, I, I, I don't know why, but I always thought, well, I think I can break out. Maybe I was just trying to convince myself. But that's what belief is, isn't it? You know, thinking you can do something when there's no, there's no evidence that that should be the case. And so I always look for stories where, where ridiculous things have been done that people said couldn't be done. And then you align that with your vision which is saying, you know, Roger Bannister, when he ran the first four minute mile, right, people were saying in the history of, in the history of time, nobody had run a four minute mile. No human and, and everyone was saying it couldn't be done. The best runner in the age was a guy called John Landy. John Landy said it's like hitting a brick wall. It will never be done and it can't be done. And what happened was Roger Bannister was the first guy to just sit back and say, well, we'll just see about that. And then because he started with, well, let's see about that and that belief that it wasn't impossible, everything changed on what he did. The way train changed. He was one of the first athletes to really look at diet, right, and how that could impact him. The type, the types of training he did change. He spoke to medical professionals about, about recovery and things like that. He took it so far, you know that there's, there's a sports ground still in the UK where it's done called Ifley Road. That was where the first four minute mile was run. And it's a really brand new stadium on three sides and on one side is this old like brick building with a flag on top. And the significance of the flag is on the race. Where Bannister did his four minute mile, he stopped the race, delayed the race three times because the flag was waving and the flag waving meant there was wind. And so he'd calculated the first 4 minute mile down to the impact of wind that was that it would have. Now if you don't think you can run a four minute mile, you're not checking wind speeds, right? So he did all these things, right? To be, to do the first minute mile. Now the best part of the story is within three weeks the guy who said it couldn't be done did it, right? Within a year and within 18 months, four people did it in one race. So in the whole of humanity, nobody had done it. And it took one guy to believe it and say, well, we'll just see about that. Put a plan in place to cover all the things that would stop him doing it and ways to overcome them. And boom, he goes and does it. And so you've got this vision that we're talking about, but there's no good having a vision if people say I love it, but we're not going to do that. That's not belief thing comes in.
- [30:31]
B
I have to believe, have to believe.
- [30:35]
C
So let me just give you a quick story that I really love on this topic. I was working with an executive in a medical ice company and he was addressing the company and we were just talking about this topic actually. And we were talking, I said, you know, what's the purpose of the org? And he was like coming up with some pretty good ideas. And, and it was kind of tactical. It was like, you know, we got to do this and these metrics. And I said, I said, hey, don't you guys have some people out there in the, in the audience that are like that, that are like their customers, but they're more like patients that have been saved by your. And he's like, yeah, we do, we do that every year. And I said, well, isn't that really the purpose of your organization? It's like you're saving lives. And I said, so before you talk about vision and where the company needs to go and blah, blah, blah, let's give them a little evidence that that's actually what you do. So these people are waking up in the morning, they're thinking about regions, they're thinking about diagnostics. They're thinking about. What they should be thinking about is, I've got an opportunity to save somebody's life today. So this guy killed it. He gets up on stage, Jeremy, he says, what I'd like to do before we get started is I all want you to get reconnected to our purpose. Evelyn, Sam, Jim, Susan, all these people came up and it was a new diagnostic tool that they had that's actually saved those people's lives. Without that tool, those people would be not. They would not be there. They would not be alive. There wasn't a there. People were ready to rip the heads off chickens. They were, they were so fired up and there wasn't a dry eye in the place as these people told their testimony. Okay, now he said, now we have to talk about what this. So that was evidence of the purpose. Now the evidence is these people. Now we have to talk about the vision of. Now we got to take this to the other diagnostic tools. But what I'm trying to talk about, guys, is setting the stage for the vision. Once you set the stage with purpose and passion, vision's a little bit easier. You agree?
- [32:44]
D
Yeah, I do. That's an amazing story. There often wasn't a dry eye in the house when John was doing the training, but that's because he normally was yelling at everybody.
- [32:52]
C
Oh, that's because he went over quotas. Jeremy had to double.
- [32:57]
D
You know, I think it's, it's a brilliant story. It's, it's, it's, you know, and that's a genuine life or death one. And they're always amazing, those ones. You know what I liked about, about that is, you know, in that scenario, it's tricky to, to turn it into what we do, really, because what you've got there is you've got a chance to genuinely save people's lives. And, you know, and we're, we're not really, we're not really doing that. But, but what, what I would take from that if I was in that room, that would, that would say to me, okay, there's a vision. And then, and there's also a belief. But then I think what, what Then you have to take belief down to another level, which is you can say to somebody, look, something impossible can be achieved, you know, and, and so this can be achieved. So that's what the Roger Bannister story is. But they've got to leave the room knowing. Knowing their part of it.
- [33:45]
B
Yeah.
- [33:46]
D
Believe that they can do their part as well. Right. Yeah. And so there's a. There's a there's a couple of things that go into that. The first one is obviously if people know that they're in a development environment and they're going to be given tools and skills that they don't have today and that's going to help them get there, that's the first thing. So part of the vision has to be to say we're going to help you along the way because we've done it before and we've had success and we know what we're doing and here's how we're going to get you to do it. Right. So that's the first thing and then the second thing that's important is to say right so, so actually what we're not going to ask you to go on a four minute mile because what we're asking you to do is just do what has been done before. But you've got to believe that you can do it. And it's always amazing. I've got a million examples of people who will come in and say I'm not sure I can do this. It might be hit a quota this quarter, it might be hit the court that year, it might be. We had a young kid at Multiverse, you know when I joined Multiverse the, the biggest quarter that ever been done was 200k. And I'd said to this kid, George, Manny was called, I said someone's going to do the first million dollar quarter. And, and he looked at me shocked. Right. And so, and so I said it's going to be you. And he, he went away, built a plan, you know, all that kind of stuff and he did the first million dollar quarter. Then I go to him, he comes in, says I've got the million. I say great, but someone's going to be the first to do a 2 million quarter. So he starts, he starts sighing and walks out the room and but the point about it was in the first conversation I remember having with him, he remember him saying I don't think, I don't think there's going to be a million dollar quarter, Jeremy. Right. So, so I said I have this simple question, ask people where, which really focuses the mind and I say to them, let me say I write, I write you a check for $10 million. If you do a million dollar quarter next quarter I'll pay you 10 million in commission.
- [35:31]
B
Right?
- [35:33]
D
What would you do? Do you think you could do a million dollar quarter there? And then the smart ass sales reps always go yeah, because I'd buy it myself and keep 9 million. And it's like, okay, no, you can't do that, right smart ass, I like your thinking, but that's not, that's against the rule. And so what happens? So, so then, then they start thinking, thinking actually I was going to get a 10 million dollar bonus for doing a million dollar quarter next quarter. What would I do? And that's the only question you need to ask because once they ask what would I do differently, you're then on the road. That's what happened with Banister. Banister just said what would I do differently to do the four minute mile. And then what comes from that as a plan? So this kid George man goes away, works out how much PG he's got to get, how many meetings he's got to do. He starts getting creative about how he can use people to get to different places. How is he going to get the biggest deal, what value he's going to have to get. He starts building his own ROI calculator which adds value to everybody, right? And the only thing that changed, he came back in and said, I think, I think Jeremy, I think I've got a plan, I think I can do a million dollar quarter. And I said okay, great, you're not getting the 10 million though. Because what we've established now was the only thing that was the problem was your motivation, right? So the 10 million checks got. But by the way, if you do that for the rest of your life, the 10 million check will come, mate. Yes, you're doing there is, you're saying to people, right, you think that's not possible. What would you do if 10 million bucks was on the line? And it just shapes their thinking a little bit so they start thinking what if? And the humans are so amazing, right, that if you ask yourself what if, why can't it be done? That's when you start building plans to make something happen. And more often than not you'll find a way to get there. You see what I mean?
- [37:11]
B
Yeah. What I think happens right after that is so I, you know, we, let's, let's ground ourselves. We talked about the vision and the purpose and then the belief. So now I believe in your vision as the leader like you just gave tell told the kid to do a million bucks. But now I have to actually ask myself if I'm going to be a better person for it. You know, do I believe that I'll be worth it?
- [37:34]
C
Is it worth it?
- [37:35]
B
Is it worth it? Do I believe I'll be a better person for the when I achieve that vision? Too, or because I believe in this. And then also will I have enhanced, like, my. To Jeremy's point, my skills, my knowledge, my character. And what Jeremy gave him was this vision of the $10 million. He sat back and thought about it and thought about, you know, if he does achieve that, here's how he'll be a much better person for it and all the other things that go along with being. Achieving that goal. Right? So there's this, okay, I believe in your vision. I believe in the purpose. I. I have belief in it. But now, what is it going to do for me? How am I going to be better? Everybody asks that. That's a natural question.
- [38:20]
C
Love that. And, And. And let's not. Let's not smooth over. The most important thing that we're talking about here. I think on belief is we all gave examples. Banister had a belief. You know, he had that within him. When I do leadership sessions, I always ask the same question. I want you to write down somebody, the greatest leader that you've ever experienced. I don't care if it's. They always say personal or professional. I said, I don't care, because we're going to talk about a definition in a second. Give me, you know, write down the name. And so then I tell you that we go around the room and I say, who's the person? Why? So there's music teachers, there's coaches, there are bosses. And I got to tell you, when we say, why? And I go write that down on the. On the board, and it's never left me. The overwhelming reason people pick people is two things. They had an unbelievable ability to meet me wherever I was. So we talked about the cookie cutter. We talked about, you know, great leaders, meet people wherever they are. And the second thing that they say is they believed me, actually more than I believed in myself in the beginning of something.
- [39:34]
B
I love that.
- [39:35]
C
And that is. And that's statistically relevant for me over 20 years of talking to people. Give me some comments on that.
- [39:42]
B
Well, I've definitely had the experience many, many times. And some people used to call it the McMahon hot seat, where I saw that somebody had a lot of potential, but they kind of were at the same level for a long period of time. And I realized, you know, they're not really stepping up to the next level. I believe in them. I think other people around them believe that they could get to the next level, but they're not doing anything about it. So, you know, as a leader, I would sit them down in a. In a seat, have Plenty of time to talk about it, make sure they had an hour marked off on their calendar and I had an hour so they can't get away and then just ask them a lot of questions about, you know, where they think they are, why they're not progressing, and all of these different questions and they're squirming in their chair and they're thinking they're going to get fired. They're thinking something bad's going to happen. But when they realize that, to one of Jeremy's earlier points, that I have their best interests at heart and I see things in them that they don't see, and I believe that they can get to the next level. And here's what I think they need to do to get to the next level. And more importantly, here's how I'm going to help them get to that next level. That once they get to that next level, they're not leaving me as a leader. They're not going anywhere because where else are they going to go? Are they going to change companies for $10,000 more a year or something? They may not get the leader that believes in them and is helping them grow and develop as a person. So I found that to always be.
- [41:18]
D
I'll think on that. I think you two have said all that needs to be said around, you know, how you do it and the importance of, you know, them seeing that. What I would, what I would say make comment on in this situation is what an amazing, joyous, beautiful responsibility you have as a leader to do those things. And, and you know, this is, this is the thing about leadership is ultimately, if you want to do it, great and you want to change people's lives and forever, not just when they're working for you forever. You look at the number of people who are CROs of the hottest tech companies in the world right now. John. Right. Not many didn't work for you and they don't work for you now. She changed the life forever. If, if, if you want to do that is really, really hard work. Right? And so you've got to be committed to that and, and, and you've got to be committed to the hard work and the ups and downs and all that kind of stuff. But for me, the, the, the, the thing about leadership and about, about doing all that hard work every day, day in, day out, consistently and always trying to get better and better was, was that the, the, the joy of having a job where you could influence so many people in such a beautiful way over such a long period of time? It's, it's really, it's, it's a great responsibility. It's really difficult to think of, of a better way to live your life than being able to do that. And you know, we've all got, you know, story. I remember one, one time there was a young girl at Appdynamics actually and she'd been at Dynamics for 18 months and haven't sold a thing, right? And we were analyzing all the time, seeing what was the problem. There was this one time when she, she got this deal with a company and I thought, I'm going to get involved in that, right, because she, she needs a win. And it just turned out one of those companies that, you know, we thought had money, that didn't have money. CIO wanted a site license for, you know, 50 bucks, you know, and it just, it was just, it just, the deal just was never going to happen. And I remember I was in the meeting with the CIO and she's waiting outside, you know, expecting. I came out and she just saw my face and I was desperate to get the deal for her, you know. And I remember we took a, a 45 minute walk. It was February in London. Cold drizzle. Yeah, we took, we took a 45 minute walk down, down to London Waterloo. And I just remember this talk, just saying to her, like John was doing like, like there, you know, what do you think's going wrong? What do things go right? Here's where I, I believe in you. I think you can do. I think these are the areas needed. You know what I. We're, we're going to stick with it. We're going to, we're going to help you with. But most importantly, I'd said to her, you're doing everything that we've asked and I know that what we ask makes people great and sometimes it takes a quarter, sometimes it can take two years. So we're going to stick with you because if you don't make it, then I need to get fired. So if you're going to, if you're committed to keeping going, we will, we will never walk away from you. And this, this girl, right, Natalie, she's called the year after she became the top rep in the world, got promoted brd, top RD in the world. And now she's, she's head of global accounts for Amir, for Rubrik. Just a brilliant story. Brilliant, you know, young woman, hugely successful. And when I, when I think about leadership and all the stories I hear from lots of different people, I'm obviously telling my stories on Here, now. That's why you put the work in moments like that. And again, coming back to the question to start, John, about leader versus management and you know, leadership from my perspective being the ability to change people's lives. If you live a life like that, then you're going to be more successful than you could possibly dream of and get, you know, in many ways, get rewards in so many different ways. And I think you've got to have that as at the front of your mind as a leader all the time because it's really hard to do all those things. But my goodness, it's, it's worth it.
- [45:15]
C
You know, that story does such a great job of proving the point that leadership and management go hand in hand. Many people are like, well, I'm a leader now. I don't have to do the tactical stuff or I'm tactical. I don't really know how to inspire people. Jeremy, your story, what I love is that now we're the kind of pendulum or it's kind of like a golf swing and like there's a rhythm to it. So we had talked about purpose and passion and vision and now what you were inspiring somebody. Was it Natalie? You said what you were inspiring, Natalie, was you had a playbook, you were getting down now to the process and you were talking to her about the process and you were giving her connection. Here's a story that I love. Many years ago at a Super Bowl, I watched as the Giants were playing. I can't remember who they playing. They might have been playing the Bills. I can't remember. Bill Parcells is the head coach and he leaves the sidelines in the middle of a Super Bowl. In the middle of a super. We leave the sideline of coaching and watching the game and he goes over to the offensive lineman and they're down and they're dejected a little bit and their heads are down. The run game isn't working very well. And I'll, I'll, I'll attach this video in the notes because it's one of my favorite ones. It's like an eight second video. And Parcel leans down and he looks at the offensive line and he says, this is why you lift all those weights. Meaning he was trying to connect them, Jeremy, to the tactics and the efforts to winning a Super Bowl. We've been doing this, you've been doing the PG for three weeks or three months or two years or what have you. Great leaders bring the tactics and the leadership principles together. Do you guys agree with that? You can't have one without the other, you're, you're an empty suit. You're a blowhard. If you just talk about rah rah and you have no process to get people where you want to take them. Does that make sense?
- [47:15]
D
Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I think like I've sat in lots of rooms where, where a manager has stood up and said we're the best team in the world and we're going to do this and we're going to do that and you're sitting back going, you're definitely not because it's just a rah speech. You know, this is, you know, the, the most, the most powerful thing really in the world when, when you talk about, when was talking about these vision things is you've got this vision and then you're giving people the belief that the vision can be executed and then you're giving them the plan.
- [47:49]
C
Yes.
- [47:50]
D
Right. Because without any of those three things, you're never going to do something truly special. You've got to have the bill, you've got to have the vision, you've got to have the belief from everybody that they can, that, that it can be done and know their part in it. And then you've got to have the plan to do it. And it's such a huge, huge differentiator for you as a leader. Because you know what I found is most people don't even, don't really have the courage to put up a big vision because it's scary. And the reason it's scary is it's, it's, it's the same for everybody is people don't like to fail. Nobody does. There's not one room you'll go into and say hey, hands up if you're okay with failing. And, and any hand goes up. So everybody's terrified of failing. So the second you put up a big vision, the bigger it is, the more risk you've got of failing. So it's, so it's, it's, it's scary to do that for, for starters, so few people have, have the courage to, to put, to publicize it. And even fewer have the, the ability to get people to believe it can be done. And then even fewer have the knowledge and the plan and the discipline on a day to day basis to execute what the, what, what the vision is.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah, just emphasizing two things that you said there. Like one is you have to have the plan. Like you can basically put up a grand vision, the purpose, the belief, all of that stuff. But if you don't have a plan and a strategy on how you're going to get there. It's just a bunch of empty air. And that's why you see these people that just say, we're going to be this or we're going to be that, but there'. Plan. There's no strategy behind exactly how they're going to get there and what their people have to do and what they have to do. But when, when it's done right to your point, when you give them a vision, you give them belief and you have a plan. We've thrown this word around being passionate, that's when I can develop passion. So the woman that you talked about, you know, you gave her a vision, he told her how she was going to be better. He gave her the belief, he gave her a plan. You follow this plan and you will be successful. Now, she can develop passion. Now, she could be passionate about it. Up until that point. I don't think people really can develop passion for the leader's plan until all those other things have been executed.
- [50:02]
D
Yeah. And, and just to finish that off like that, nobody, nobody should be under any illusion that even with all those things, the will that it takes every single day to get up and do the work is tremendous. Right. Because you've got to do it when things are great and you've got to do it when you just lost your biggest deal. You've got to take the same energy and will and belief every single day. You know, I remember saying to you once, John, it was a funny story, a guy was about to join Blade Logic, and. And it was just before we IPO'd, and you'd given me some shares that I could give him. And I told him the share is gonna be worth about a million bucks or something. And the kid said, he turned around, said, yeah, I'm not joining. And I was like, why not? And I said, well, I think I've missed the boat. And I said, what's the most money that you've made in stock in your life? And he said, about $12,000. And I see. So you've made 12,000 bucks in stock and you don't wanna join now because the million's not enough. Are you mad? What? So I'm thinking, I'm not going to explain this to McMahon. So. So I thought, well, I'm just going to tell him the truth. So I told you that story and you were quiet for a while, and then you just said under your breath, these guys think it's a get rich quick scheme. Right? And so, and I, I remember thinking, thinking he's right. So I remember from that point, I say to people all the time, you know, if I look at the, the, the journey I've had, it's been, it's been really, really hard. But the harder it's been, the, the more will. I bought the table. So if, so again, if you go back to leadership is if you've got a vision and you can give people the belief and you've got a plan and then you execute day to day. Right. If you're one of those rare people you're going to leave, live an extraordinary life. Right. And. And those around you will live an extraordinary life as well. And that's leadership for me.
- [51:58]
B
Yeah, we just had, we had Brian Halligan on the podcast who was a, you know, co founder and CEO at HubSpot for 16 years, and he said, like, there's no magic moment. Nothing's magical. 16 years. He was always hoping that something would be magical and change the course, the direction of the company. He said, every day is a grind. Every day. If you want to achieve those goals, that's a grind. There's no easy ride.
- [52:27]
C
Yeah, there's. Johnny. I love the, I love the staying. The saying that success, there's no elevator in success. You got to take the stairs and. Hey, I'm just thinking about something you said, Jeremy, that I really love. Look, we're talking about purpose, we're talking about passion, we're talking about vision, we're talking about. But Jeremy, you just introduced a concept called will. And I want to have everybody understand this will comes from within. So if you're a leader and you're trying to put will inside of people, you got it wrong. Because if your vision, your purpose and your passion isn't creating that will, then either you don't have a good enough methodology there, or you got the wrong person. But I find many leaders try to try to get the will from people, and will comes from within. And that's a whole nother recruiting episode we can talk about. But I feel very strongly on that.
- [53:19]
D
No doubt. You know, you know, the other thing that just. I was just thinking about it then when we were talking and looking at this. Who's on this call? Is the other thing that I think people underestimate sometimes about, about that this whole vision and execution part is the need for loyalty. Yeah. As a leader. And, you know, it's, It's a tricky concept, isn't it, in, in, in our world, because, you know, sales is one of the most accountable jobs in the world, because at the end of every quarter, you've got your name and there's a number next to it, and there's no hiding from that. And I've seen, you know, the, the reason I was thinking about was when I was telling about the Natalie story, and she hadn't sold anything for 18 months. And then a year later, she's number one rep in the world. And one of the things that I was proud about, about that I think she was working for, I think it might have been altier at the time. And I'll, you know, we would be in these meetings, I didn't know her very well at the time, and I would come in and be saying, what's happening with Natalie? And I would say, I've got this. She's great. We're gonna make it great. She's got all. If she, if she, if, if you think she should go, you're gonna sack me first, right? Because that means I haven't, I haven't done my job. And in our world, obviously, if, if someone doesn't have the raw materials you're talking about there, John, right, If someone just doesn't have the will, you can't put that into somebody, circumstances. Maybe it's the right thing for both parties, not just you, but for them as well, that they go somewhere else because they won't be enjoying it either. But I do think as a leader, you've got to figure out quite early on that somebody's, that you're with somebody or you're not. And for me, you know, the two things that we talked about this in the previous podcast, you've got intelligence. We label it a bit differently, but same. You've got intelligence, you've got character. Characters that will is obviously part of character. You can't put any of those two things into people. Someone's either smart enough or they're not, and you'll never change it. Or they're, they're tough enough. The work ethics there, they're, they're brave enough or they're not, and you won't change that either. Now, if you've got somebody and they, you know, they've got those two things, and you do know it, by the way, after a couple, after a few weeks, right, I taught in the interview process because you may be meeting for three hours, but after a few weeks, you know, if somebody's got that or not, if they have, then if you're going to call yourself a leader that wants to change people's lives, you owe it to that person to stick with them. Because if they fail and they've got the qualities that can't be taught, that's on you, right? So you've got to stick with that. Now, now, the, the. What happens then is if you live your life like that, right. Then loyalty provides so many things culturally. It provides safety in an unsafe job. It drives courage for people to take risks because they think they've got somebody backing them up. It gets. It provides the leader with warmth and respect and admiration, which is. It's such an underrated quality for me. Loyalty and, and it's. It should never be forgotten and people want to repay it as well. I think, you know, when you were saying about the things that people remember, John, I think, you know, people would. The people I would ask about, the leaders that they've had that I know almost all of them will say they were there when I needed them. Any leader can be there when the big deal comes in. When you, when you're six quarters without a result, that's when you need a leader. And you know, you look at you, John, right? You could be. You'd be very tough with people in your team, but you were loyal. I never thought for one second if I was in, if I got into a jam, you wouldn't be right behind me. Even if you think I'd messed up, which I invariably did. Right. Apart from on the split swaps. I was always right on the split swaps.
- [56:54]
B
We won't talk about any time that you ever messed up that was only on a couple fingers. That's it.
- [57:00]
D
But. No but there was never. But I knew. You knew I was like, John, I sell close to the wind all the time, right. And you, even if you thought was wrong, you'd back me up and then you'd pull me to one side and say, hey, Dugan, that was a swing and a miss, kid. Right. And it's so vital in this high pressure, you know, dangerous job that we've got that people know that you've got their back. And it's, it's an underrated quality. And I think it's something worth thinking about, you know, if you're going to be a great leader.
- [57:26]
B
Yeah. And it's something that in a. Goes both ways, though. You as the leader, you're loyal to your people and you're trying to create a team, a team of selfless individuals that are all, you know, working together. But if you really good at leadership, all of a sudden, you gain loyalty from your people too, right? So it can. It Works both ways. But your loyalty is the leader has to be earned.
- [57:55]
C
Yes.
- [57:55]
B
You can't believe that people are just going to be loyal to you just because you're the leader. You have to earn it. And I think that's. If we switch gears just a little bit. That's one of the proofs. If we talk about what is the proof of great leadership.
- [58:09]
C
Hey, Johnny, before we switch to that one, before we switch to that one, can you. I just want to wrap a bow on what we just talked about because.
- [58:16]
B
Keep going.
- [58:17]
C
So what you guys are describing is in those instances, I believe if I interviewed the people that worked for you, they would have said Jeremy and John took me to places I couldn't get to on my own. It's just like, that's loyalty. That creates loyalty. You took me to a place I couldn't get to on my own. But I have a word of caution. Many leaders, they do a great job with the purpose, the passion, the vision, the process. And then it kind of falls apart a little bit on the skill set sometimes. And that's where sometimes the. You have to be honest with yourself and you say, okay, am I trying to put something into somebody like DNA? Am I trying to put DNA into somebody that God left out? Good luck. Good luck. So sometimes your loyalty can be blind loyalty, and you're just not. You're not, you know, this person's trying really, really hard, but you're actually what they're missing is you don't think it can be taught to them. You don't think they're going to grasp it. It doesn't mean you still can't be loyal. This happens to us all the time. As leaders. We help people go on to do other things, and we have great stories about people that, you know, might have struggled in a certain situation, and then they got into something that was more of a natural resting state for them. And you as a leader. Now, we're talking about lifelong loyalty. We're not talking about just job loyalty. When you help somebody realize that this is not the right thing for them, and then you help them find the right thing, that's. That's legacy, Johnny. That's. I think that's where you were going, Johnny, on loyalty and legacy and evidence.
- [59:52]
B
Yeah, I mean, loyalty is one thing where the team becomes loyal to you because of what you've been able to accomplish with the team. You've accomplished the vision. They know that they. They had belief. They know that they're better as individuals and as a team. And you've Created something special because now they're part of something that they didn't believe that they could ever be part of. So then you gain that loyalty. Now, legacy is like, a little bit different. Legacy means, you know, let me back up. I hate it when I hear people say, you know, that I was the leader of this division or this company, and then when I left, it fell apart. Yeah, that means you really didn't do a good job. You didn't really develop a whole bunch of leaders that could take your place. Right. So you didn't leave a legacy. And also part of a legacy is that people want to follow you to the next opportunity because they believe in you. They understand the rules of the game, then they understand what you're going to lay out, and they understand that underneath you, they can become a much better person. You know, they can develop as a person.
- [61:02]
D
I love it when I leave somewhere and it collapses because it's really good for my ego. That's the, the real driving force behind my career in life, in spite of all this stuff that I've been, I've been saying. Because it sounds right. No, I'm kidding, obviously. No, I agree with you, John. And, you know, if you, if. When you're talking about, like, the signs of success in a leader, I would break it down to two areas, and legacy is one of them because that's, that's kind of what happens afterwards, isn't it? That's how you can look back and say it's gone great. And, and for me, you know, I think, and you can look at it in, like, great sports, great sports teams, great companies. You can see, you know, they thrive sometimes off the legacy that they've had in the past. And for me, it's like, will what you've done be remembered? Right? Will you and your, your team will be remembered? Will. Will people take from that experience? Will people go into that experience and leave much better? Will they keep doing it and going and create their own, you know, their own versions of, of what you've created? Will they remember what that, that, that time fondly for, for great reasons. Will they pay it forward? You know, you know, you know, Natalie Sidwell and no other guy mentioned the start. They're now doing with all of their team what I, I did with them and what you did with me, John. Right. So they're going to pay it forward and, and you're going to see this, this cascading down to other people.
- [62:30]
B
Right?
- [62:30]
D
And will it feel great about their experience? And again, if you, you take it Right back the star. If your goal as a leader is to change people's lives, then for me, legacy is, is that those people feel that you did, and then they're going on to do it with their teams and companies in the future and all the great results that they'll be getting, revenue in growth and IPOs, all that kind of stuff. It's coming from that leadership that you created, which is getting great people, inspiring them, and developing and making them better. You see what I mean?
- [63:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And when they talk about it, they actually talk. They don't speak about themselves. They actually, when it's done right, they speak about team. They talk about, you know, the team. They talk about the pride of the team, how proud they were to be part of the team, what the team's accomplishments were. And especially when it's in the past, they always are talking about the fact that they were on that team. They're very proud of it. That's what you've really developed is. Is pride.
- [63:33]
C
Yeah. I think I just want to highlight a couple of things that you guys are saying for our audience. I would be writing this one down because Jeremy and John Mack are talking about proof of leadership. Proof of leadership. And we all have to be accountable to be able to tell our story when we want to go lead another organization. Let's say you interview with any of the three of us, we're looking for proof of leadership. And John highlighted what happened to the organization after you and many people. It's a dead giveaway. You answer a question like that and say, well, I left and it kind of fell apart. That's not leadership. That's not evidence of leadership. Evidence of leadership is you. You know, you develop people under them. And you talked about. Jeremy, I'm going to paraphrase a little bit. I call it the leadership tree. You better be able to right now get out a piece of paper and talk about the people that you've developed. Who's developed under you, the great coaches in the NFL or in. In football in Europe or what have you, or Formula one or whatever, who was under somebody else and is thriving now. I call that the leadership tree. And I expected. When I brought somebody into my organization, I expected that tree to follow. And it's amazing. And I asked a question like, okay, so you went from that job to that job. Okay, who followed you? Who followed you? And, man, I'm telling you, if you're. If you're trying to get a leadership job right now and you can't talk about. You can't talk about how the organization thrived after you, and you can't talk about, you know, the leadership tree and who followed you. That's a big, big concern for me.
- [65:15]
B
Agree. Yeah.
- [65:16]
C
Yeah, dude, we could go on and talk about, like, we're not even halfway through the thing, are we, Johnny?
- [65:23]
B
The notes Holy past the hour that we asked Mr. Duggan for smokes.
- [65:28]
C
We bring him back. We got to bring you back again. Jeremy, we talked. We didn't talk about everything.
- [65:33]
D
As long you don't ask me about my favorite film, because now every time I get a LinkedIn request, they say, I'd like to, like, link in with you, even though your favorite film is Annie, and I didn't know you're gonna ask me that question. You remember you asked me about my favorite film and I made a mistake and just said Annie and the Sound of Music, and that's. Oh, that's the only thing that people remember about that podcast we did, first off.
- [65:53]
B
Now which one is it? Is it Annie or is it the Sound of Music?
- [65:57]
D
That's a little of both, John. I mean, there's this. There's a beautiful story in both them, and the music is delightful and, you know, but see, I'm doing it again. I don't even know why I brought it up. Let's talk about this.
- [66:10]
B
What is the one thing about the movie Annie that you really love?
- [66:15]
D
It's about a little tough ginger head child who has it tough but ends up doing okay. I was really inspired by that as a kid. I can't really think why.
- [66:31]
C
Jeremy, you're. We love to have you on your. Your podcast with us are always up in the highest rated. People love to hear what you have to say. I'm so thankful and, and, and grateful that I had a chance to run alongside with you for a little bit out there in the business world. And I just. I love what you're doing out there. I love the impact you've had, and thanks for sharing that with us today, dude.
- [66:55]
D
The pleasure. It's so great talking to you guys, and I've obviously learned so much from. From both of you, and these podcasts are brilliant. The amount of people I know who, who are just listen to every single one, often multiple times. It's a. It's a brilliant service you're putting in for this. So it's been a pleasure to. To be on. On your show, even if you're wearing that dodgy thing on the bottom of your face. John, you know, you know, McMahon wouldn't have hired you and back in the 90s with the beard.
- [67:20]
B
You know, that was many years ago.
- [67:22]
C
He's still trying to figure out if it was a good thing to hire me back in the day.
- [67:27]
D
Thanks so much.
- [67:29]
B
Thanks to Jeremy duggan. Thank you, Mr. Kaplan. And thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of the Revenue Builders podcast.
- [67:37]
A
Thanks for listening to today's episode. Be sure to check us out@force management.com.