Podcast Summary: Revenue Builders – Forgiveness as a Leadership Advantage

Guest: Doug Holladay, Author of Rethinking Success
Hosts: John McMahon & John Kaplan
Date: January 8, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the transformative power of forgiveness in leadership, drawing from Doug Holladay's book Rethinking Success. The conversation explores why forgiveness is challenging yet essential, and unpacks how personal growth and reflection can unlock better leadership, healthier organizations, and more fulfilled lives. The hosts and Doug reflect on both deeply personal stories and wider implications for company culture, employee relationships, and parenthood. Memorable quotes, actionable advice, and practical stories make for a rich discussion highly relevant for any business leader or individual seeking to grow.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Start with Forgiveness?

• Doug Holladay opens by linking bitterness to self-absorption:
  • “When you are obsessed with vengeance and getting even, that takes a lot of bandwidth and it's very toxic.” (01:36)
  • Resentment crowds out space for empathy and caring for others.
• Quote (Confucius):
  • “Before you embark on a journey of revenge, first dig two graves.” (03:19)

2. The Burden of Resentment

• Negative vs. Positive Energy:
  • John Kaplan: “There's only two energies in the world, negative and positive. Holding that negative energy... usually doesn't come out in a positive way.” (02:56–03:09)
• Impact of Carrying Grudges:
  • Resentment is not only futile but self-destructive—comparable to “taking poison and expecting you to die.” (09:54)

3. Modeling Forgiveness: Catching vs. Teaching

• Behavior is caught, not just taught:
  • Doug: “The modeling, it can't be overstated. I think it's 95% of it. How you live.” (05:37)
  • Reflects research that children emulate parents’ actions, not words. (06:58–07:12)
• Personal Work Comes First:
  • “The best thing you can do for your kids, your employees, your partner, is really work on yourself.” (07:30)

4. Leadership: Forgiveness Sets the Tone

• Creating Culture:
  • “People follow people. They don't follow concepts... You're going to set a tone and a culture.” (10:31)
• Mission vs. Practice:
  • “The problem is not what's on the walls, but what happens in the halls.” (11:58)
  • Pretty mission statements mean nothing without embodied values.

5. Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation

• Distinguishing the Two:
  • Forgiveness is internal; reconciliation involves two people. (13:42–14:06)
  • “True forgiveness is about how I feel about another person... It does not take two people to forgive.” (17:35)
• Boundaries and Learning:
  • “You can forgive but not forget… It stores as a learning lesson.” (18:46–19:00)
  • Doug: “Forgiveness is not predicated on anyone else's behavior change.” (19:00)

6. When Action Is Not Reciprocated

• Example: Doug recounts returning money to an aggrieved business partner who never forgave him, illustrating you can only control your own actions. (15:13–16:54)

7. Personal Stories: The Cost of Carrying Pain

• John McMahon’s story of a decades-long grudge:
  • Emotionally charged retelling of holding resentment for 35 years until an unexpected encounter forced forgiveness and release. (23:03–25:24)
  • “I carried it for 35 years... it was gone in 15 seconds.” (25:13)
• Powerful lesson: Sometimes forgiveness requires circumstances to shift—and staying open can “remove a boulder from your heart.” (25:31–25:37)

8. The “How” of Forgiveness

• Suggestions from Doug:
  • Release expectations about how apologies or reparations should come. (26:19–26:30)
  • Do an inventory of your own transgressions; humility is the gateway. (32:13)
  • Work on yourself, not policing others’ readiness to forgive. (34:41)

9. Separating Person from Act

• On empathy and discernment:
  • “When I separate the person from the act, I realize that I’m investing too much in thinking I understand their story.” (41:12)
  • It's essential not to freeze someone’s identity in time—people and circumstances change. (42:48)

10. Impact of Generational Patterns

• Childhood and Generational Trauma:
  • “What you saw is what you do.” (05:18)
  • Doug references the book What Happened to You?—moving from ‘what’s wrong with you’ to ‘what happened to you’ reframes judgment as understanding. (50:01)

11. Authenticity, Humility, and Self-Reflection

• Humility:
  • Four keys to a good life (ancient saint): “Humility, humility, humility, humility.” (36:21)
  • True humility means “redirecting this force, this power you have... for good.” (36:52)
• Authenticity over Perfection:
  • “People are longing to see authentic whole people, not perfect people.” (53:33)
• Reflection:
  • “If I could do anything different at 62... I would have started reflecting at 32.” (52:03)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “If holding a resentment or unforgiving somebody, it's like me taking poison and expecting you to die.”
  — Doug Holladay (09:54)

• “Forgiveness, it doesn't have everything to do and very little to do with the other person. It's really the work that we need to do.”
  — John McMahon (22:06)

• “You can forgive but not forget...you remember what happened, but you don't resent it. It's a learning lesson.”
  — John Kaplan (18:39–19:00)

• “Do everything as far as it lies within you to make things right, period. You can't change anybody else. Just work on your own soul and your own, your own stuff.”
  — Doug Holladay (59:54)

Important Timestamps

• 01:36 – Why bitterness and forgiveness can't coexist
• 05:37 – The importance of modeling forgiveness (more is caught than taught)
• 10:31 – The leader as culture-setter
• 13:42 – Difference between reconciliation and forgiveness
• 15:13 – Example: Returning money, not receiving forgiveness
• 23:03 – John McMahon’s story about a 35-year grudge
• 25:13 – Experiencing release after confronting the person
• 32:13 – Focus on self-inventory, humility as key to forgiveness
• 36:21 – Four keys: “Humility, humility, humility, humility”
• 41:12 – Separating the person from the act
• 50:01 – Generational patterns and self-examination
• 53:33 – Authenticity and its role in leadership and life
• 59:54 – Takeaways and call for self-reflection

Practical Takeaways & Action Steps

At the end of the episode, Doug leaves listeners with actionable practices:

• Make every effort, as far as it lies within you, to make things right.
• Do your own inventory; look at generational patterns and decide consciously to break unhealthy cycles.
• Be brave enough to face your own story with honesty—self-awareness is liberating and the starting point for change.
• Model forgiveness for your children, employees, and peers—even small authentic acts have ripple effects.
• Choose not to keep score or carry punitive motives; focus on protecting your own peace.

Reflection Prompts:

• Did your caregivers model forgiveness?
• List example moments when you forgave—or were forgiven—and how it shaped you.
• Identify where you may be keeping score.
• Recall learning moments from painful experiences.
• Consider where you can serve others and what changes as a result.

Closing Thoughts

Forgiveness is not about excusing others. It is fundamentally about freeing yourself, reclaiming emotional bandwidth, and creating space for authentic connection and leadership. Doug, John, and John urge listeners: do the work on yourself, model what you want to see, and don’t wait decades to let go of unnecessary burdens. Reflection, humility, and self-awareness are not only personal strengths—they’re the foundations of impactful, sustainable leadership.

For more on this topic, check out Doug Holladay’s book Rethinking Success and the resources at forcemanagement.com.