Revenue Builders Podcast: "Hiring Great Sales Talent"

Date: May 5, 2022
Hosts: John McMahon (Five-time CRO) & John Kaplan (Co-founder, Force Management)

Episode Overview

In this episode, John McMahon and John Kaplan delve into the art and science of hiring elite sales talent. Drawing on decades of executive experience, they dissect the interviewing process from both the company’s and the candidate’s perspectives. The conversation focuses on the importance of thorough preparation, defining success profiles, and the critical role of characteristics over just skills and experience. Listeners can expect actionable advice for both interviewers and job seekers, candid anecdotes from the field, and memorable stories about what can make—or break—great hiring outcomes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining What You're Looking For (Position Profile)

[02:31] John McMahon stresses that most companies don’t clearly define what they want in a candidate:

• Many organizations hire without a written "position profile" detailing required knowledge, skills, characteristics, and experience.

• Hiring managers often rely on resumes, which aren't third-party certified and don’t reveal critical characteristics.

• Quote:

  “A resume is so funny to me because no one has ever certified a resume. Right?... No one's truly certifying that stuff.”
  (John McMahon, 05:07)

• The most important hiring criteria are candidate characteristics, which are hard to change later.

2. Getting Specific about Characteristics, Not Just Skills

[06:16] John Kaplan notes the common tendency to use vague terms:

• Managers often mention traits like "drive" or "grit" without specifying what that looks like in practice.

• [07:14] John McMahon draws a football analogy to stress that “sales is not sales,” and roles need different skill sets, just as football positions do.

• Key Takeaway:
  Success in fast-paced environments requires intelligence and drive, as skill development takes time, and adaptability is crucial.

3. The Importance of Evidence in Interviewing

• Interviewers must prepare targeted discovery questions to uncover real evidence of key characteristics.

• Quote:

  “Give me an example of where you had to utilize your coachability skills.”
  (John Kaplan, 11:48)

• For every item on the position profile, formulate open-ended questions to extract stories and examples, not just "yes" or "no" answers.

4. Balancing Qualification and Selling the Opportunity

• Interviews should be balanced: 50% qualifying the candidate, 50% selling the company and role.

• Many managers fail to sell why their organization matters, often because they haven't emotionally connected to the company mission themselves.

• Quote:

  “Some of the best interviewers have emotionally connected to what they do matters and why it matters and therefore it comes across in the interview process.”
  (John Kaplan, 16:37)

• First-time managers sometimes look more for a 'friend' than the right hire, and fail to assess skills and risks properly.

5. Dividing Responsibility: Company vs. Candidate

• Elite companies treat knowledge and skill development as their responsibility, while expecting candidates to bring the right characteristics.

• Quote:

  “Knowledge and skills are the responsibility of the company... The responsibility of the individual is to bring their characteristics or their character to that equation.”
  (John Kaplan, 19:43)

• Mapping out “knowledge, skills, and characteristics” helps in everything from sourcing to onboarding to promotion or demotion.

6. References: A Highly Undervalued Resource

• Most companies don’t check references properly, and when they do, they only call provided references (who are likely to be positive).

• The value lies in "back channel" references and asking for more connections beyond the current list.

• Quote:

  “If you really just do a little bit of work, it's not that hard to back channel the person and figure out, hey, what's really going on with this person.”
  (John McMahon, 23:21)

• Kaplan shares a memorable story about catching a candidate lying about being a Division 1 athlete by directly calling the coach during the interview.

7. Advice for Candidates: Interviewing as a Sales Call

• Candidates should deeply research the company and the interviewer.

• Quality of candidate questions reveals preparation and genuine interest.

• Quote:

  “If this interview is not that important to them, that they're not going to go and do homework... then why would I ever expect that they're going to do that when they're selling my product.”
  (John McMahon, 30:32)

• Approach the interview as a consultative sales call: What problems do they need solved, how can you address them, and what sets you apart?

8. Memorable Moments: Standing Out in Interviews

• Handling pressure and objections:
  [33:44] John McMahon recounts a CRO candidate who, when doubted, simply paused and winked—demonstrating confidence and composure.
• Creative persistence:
  [35:00] A candidate once sent a single running shoe with a note, “If you give me a chance and give me a shot at the interview, I'll bring the other shoe…” — exemplifying tenacity and creative follow-up.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The most important thing to hire are the characteristics. Those are the things you'll never change in the person, right?”
  — John McMahon, 05:50

• “Sales, sales is sales. If you could sell inside, you could sell outside, you could sell major accounts. And I just don't think that's true.”
  — John McMahon, 07:24

• “You have to get good at this. Because recruiting will determine you as the sales leader. No matter what level you're at.”
  — John McMahon, 36:47

• “The most elite companies on the planet are the ones that begin with people. Forecast sessions begin with people. QBRs begin with people… That's how a company grew from zero to a billion dollars in less than 10 years.”
  — John Kaplan, 37:18

Segment Timestamps

• [02:31] — The Problem with Interviewing to the Resume; Position Profiles
• [07:14] — Sales Role Specialization Analogy (Football)
• [10:44] — Core Characteristics: Intelligence, Drive, Coachability, Adaptability
• [11:48] — The Evidence-Based Interview and Discovery Questions
• [13:43] — The Sales Interview: Qualifying vs. Selling the Opportunity
• [19:43] — Company vs. Candidate Responsibilities: Knowledge/Skills vs. Characteristics
• [22:29] — Success Profiles: The "Gift That Keeps on Giving"
• [23:21] — Reference Hygiene and Back Channeling
• [24:55] — Lying Candidates and the Power of Direct Verification
• [28:59] — Preparing as a Candidate: Treat the Interview Like a Sales Call
• [33:44] — Memorable Interview Objection Handling (The Wink Story)
• [35:00] — Creative Follow-Up (The One Shoe Story)
• [36:47] — Final Advice: Recruiting Defines Leaders

Final Takeaways

• For Interviewers:

  • Define and document what makes someone successful in every sales role.
  • Prepare open-ended, evidence-seeking questions.
  • Balance between qualifying rigor and selling the opportunity.
  • Don’t cut corners on references—go deeper than the standard list.

• For Candidates:

  • Treat interviews with the depth and prep of a critical customer call.
  • Come armed with thoughtful, researched questions.
  • Seek creative ways to stand out and demonstrate your problem-solving approach.

• For Everyone:

  • Recruiting is a key lever for organizational success; companies distinguished by the quality of their people will always have an edge.

This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders, recruiters, and ambitious sales professionals aiming to master the art of both hiring and being hired.