Hiring Top Sales Talent: What the Best Companies Do

Summary

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Revenue Builders Podcast: “Hiring Top Sales Talent: What the Best Companies Do”

Date: March 10, 2024
Hosts: John McMahon (Five-time CRO), John Kaplan (Co-Founder, Force Management)
Guest: J.R. Butler (Founder, Shift Group)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how top companies identify, attract, and develop elite sales talent—particularly those transitioning from athletics and military backgrounds. J.R. Butler, whose firm specializes in placing athletes and veterans in sales roles, joins the hosts in discussing the organizational traits, leadership mindsets, and practical steps that set great hiring companies apart. The conversation offers actionable insights for both hiring leaders and job seekers on what truly enables sales excellence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “A Players”—Traits of Top Sales Talent

• Hungry to learn and do more
• Self-starters with a no-victim mentality
• Persistent, never quit, eager to learn from mistakes
• Need a culture that fosters ongoing growth and expertise
  • “They’re hungry to learn and do more. They’re self-starters with like a no-victim mentality and they never quit and they learn from their mistakes.” —J.R. Butler [00:47]

2. Organizational Culture: Not Just Perks, But Purpose

• Selling the opportunity is important: “You can make a lot of money. We’re going to get bought, we're going to go public.”
• But it’s about much more: True “culture” is how people behave when “nobody’s looking.”
  • “People think culture nowadays is funny hat Fridays on Zoom, right? Or Happy Hour. I'm a believer...culture is what people do when nobody's looking.” —J.R. Butler [01:33]
• Develop a culture of growth, practice, and clear goals.
• Reward development and expertise, not just social engagement.

3. The Leader vs. The Manager

• Leaders cultivate development; managers just give orders.
  • “They tell people what to do. Right. I wouldn’t even call them leaders. They’re managers. Right. Which are different than leaders.” —J.R. Butler [03:05]
• Hiring doesn’t end at recruitment; it’s about investing in the person’s journey within the context of their background and strengths.
• Understand the nuances of diverse candidate backgrounds—athletes, veterans, career-changers.

4. Matching Candidate and Company — Walking Away When It’s Wrong

• J.R. Butler on vetting companies: Will walk away if a client’s development culture is lacking, even at the expense of revenue.
  • “We’ve walked away from the opportunity to make revenue if we feel like that growth and development is the most important aspect.” —J.R. Butler [03:59]
• Short-term fit leads to attrition; long-term excellence requires mutual investment.
• Network reputations matter: Poor hiring experiences can ripple out due to the connectedness of athlete and veteran networks.

5. “Choose Your Hard” — Recruiting for Excellence vs. Perks

• Hard work needed both to build a culture of excellence and to settle for the wrong hires.
  • “It’s kind of like the old saying, like, choose your hard. Yes. It’s going to be hard to recruit these type of people or you can...focus on these other things...but those aren’t going to be the right people for your sales organization.” —J.R. Butler [05:19]

6. Office vs. Remote Work: Mindset as a Qualifier

• First question for candidates: Location and willingness to be mentored in person matter, especially for young or early-career individuals.
  • “If I talk to a 23-year-old kid ... and they’re like, yeah, I only want to live in central Ohio and I only want a remote job. That’s a great indicator for us. Like, all right, do they really want it that bad?” —J.R. Butler [06:28]

7. “Sell the Opportunity”—Why Your Company? Why You?

• Interviewees and interviewers must be able to articulate why the company and the leadership are worth joining.
  • “Why would somebody want to work for this company? Go. And having to be audible ready at any point in time to be able to say that, why would somebody want to work for this company?” —John Kaplan [07:00]
• Dual interview process: Candidates are interviewing the company and the leader, not just the other way around.
  • “They look at the interview as, like, I’m interviewing this candidate ... but they never look at it as, like, the candidate’s also interviewing me as the leader.” —John McMahon [08:06]

8. Athlete & Veteran Expectations: Spotting Authenticity

• Sophisticated recruits spot insincerity—don’t oversell perks, oversell development.
  • “They are used to looking at BS. They’re used to looking at a program that says, come here. It’s all about grades. It's all about whatever... and they're like, that’s not what's here.” —John Kaplan [08:44]

9. Legendary Coaches as Models for Building a Talent-Development Culture

• Success is built on development, not just raw opportunity.
  • “All six of those coaches took over programs that were garbage, like, complete garbage. But then they won pretty quickly...They were selling: hey, you’re going to come in here and you’re going to be ten times better in a year because of it.” —J.R. Butler [10:12]
• Get candidates excited about how the company and its leaders will directly make them better every day.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• J.R. Butler on the reality of hiring for true excellence:
  “If we don’t hear what we want to hear, we will walk away because we’re both going to fail. Our candidate's going to fail and not make it a full 90 to 180 days. And the company is going to fail because they’re going to have to deal with attrition, which is the most expensive part of running a sales organization.” [04:13]

• John Kaplan’s challenge:
  “Why would somebody want to work for this company? ... For our listeners, if you are looking at a company, I want you to be prepared to ask somebody this question. If you are leading a company, I want you to be prepared to answer that question.” [07:00]

• J.R. Butler on legendary coaches:
  “All those coaches have examples like that so you can sell the opportunity. You also got to recruit based off of the development culture and the people that get excited about that.” [10:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:39 — Defining “A Players” and traits of elite sales talent
• 02:30 — Company culture, development, and leadership nuance
• 03:52 — Knowing when not to place a candidate; the cost of misfit hires
• 05:08 — The challenge of building a culture of excellence vs. superficial perks
• 06:01 — Remote vs. in-person work priorities for athletes/veterans
• 07:00 — The importance of selling both the company and the leader in interviews
• 10:08 — Lessons from legendary coaches: development-first recruitment

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Actionable Takeaways

• For Leaders:

  • Build a genuine culture of practice, growth, and clarity.
  • Know and sell why your company—and your leadership—matters to potential hires.

• For Candidates:

  • Evaluate companies’ and leaders’ commitment to your development, not just flashy perks.
  • Be ready to ask, “How will you make me a better salesperson?”

• For Both:

  • Recognize that fit and investment go both ways. Both parties must be clear and intentional for long-term success.

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Episode Summary by Force Management's Revenue Builders Podcast, March 10, 2024

Transcript

[J.R. Butler]

Foreign.

[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the Revenue Builders podcast with John McMahon and John Kaplan. This podcast is brought to you by Force Management Forces Solutions help companies, small teams and individuals accelerate sales performance. Be sure to check out their online platform accender. Today we talk about the characteristics of good hiring companies and joining us for the conversation is J.R. butler, founder of the Shift Group. The Shift Group specialist specializes in placing athletes and veterans into sales roles. John McMahon kicks it off.

[John McMahon]

Let's talk a little bit about the characteristics of the good hiring companies that you've seen out there.

[J.R. Butler]

So I like to think, you know, most sales leaders are out there, they want to hire what they, what people call a players. Right. And, and I think, you know, I like to think that our candidates are a players but to define that it's like they're hungry to learn and do more. They're, they're self starters with like a no victim mentality and they never quit and they learn from their mistakes. So like as a hiring company there's a few things that you need to think about is, is number one is like you need to, you do need to sell the opportunity and the potential outcome, right. Like you can make a lot of money. We're going to get bought, we're going to go public like that, that's obviously important. But I think the other thing is you have to really have a culture of excellence. Like you have to show that you care, that people are getting really good at these things. You have to have a culture of growth and development like there. You have to build training and development into your culture and I think like clearly defined goals. Right. Like so get rid of some of that autonomy. People think culture nowadays is funny hat Fridays on Zoom, right. Or Happy Hour. I'm a believer as a sales leader and as somebody who's been on great teams and that culture is what people do when nobody's looking. Right. And I think in order to do, in order to create a culture where people do the right things, you've got to have that, that, that type of structure where they can practice and they're rewarded for practice and they clearly understand what they're playing for. So that's kind of what I, when we look at companies, that's what we're looking for is leadership that understands that where, where development is super important and people are being made experts in the process of achieving a great goal like an IPO or, or a great exit.

[John McMahon]

Yeah, because you talked about candidates being in a single mindset and wanting to constantly prep and train and be developed and have goals and for themselves. And if they go to a company that doesn't have those types of things, they're going to probably go sideways or say, you know, how did I get myself into this? The second part could be that the company does it, but you give them to a leader that doesn't believe in those types of things and you have a, you have a different problem also. Have you seen some of that?

[J.R. Butler]

Yeah, yeah. You see the leaders that, you know, they don't pick up the pucks at the end of practice.

[John Kaplan]

Right.

[J.R. Butler]

They, they tell people what to do. Right. And they're, they're more. I wouldn't even call them leaders. They're managers. Right. Which are different than leaders.

[John McMahon]

That also goes to the nuances you talked about with the different athletes, you know, whether they were football players, hockey players, basketball players, and then also the different military regions. So you have to be a leader that understands, you know, who do I have in front of me and the nuances, and try to be intimate with that person so you can understand where they need to grow and where they already are strong. Right. So it's so important that the hiring leader really understands the type of, in this case, you know, athlete that they really are getting.

[J.R. Butler]

Yep, yep.

[John McMahon]

So have you spoken to some companies where you realize, hey, this is never going to work for the types of people that I'm putting into this company?

[J.R. Butler]

Absolutely. Like, like, like we've walked away from, from the opportunity to make revenue. If we, if we feel like, like that growth and development is, is the most important aspect. Right. Not, not just talking about it, but give us an example of how someone can come in here that spends a few weeks with us but, but is just kind of getting a foundation to become a professional salesperson. How are you going to take that next step? How are you going to make them a professional salesperson? Right. And it really comes down to a culture of, of development and training and practice. So if we, if we don't hear what we want to hear, we will walk away because we're both going to fail. Our candidate's going to fail and not make it a full 90 to 180 days. And the company is going to fail because they're going to have to deal with attrition, which is the most expensive part of running a sales organization, so.

[John McMahon]

That you could also fail in another way. Because the group that you're talking about, they're typically pretty tightly connected in network. So whether they're ex military or ex athletes, you know, they, they have a way of networking and then you know, if, if they're getting put into the wrong spots, that can come back and hurt you also.

[J.R. Butler]

Yeah, and, and listen, I, I don't want to pretend this isn't hard for sales leaders to do. It's hard to say, hey, this is a, this is a culture where, where we breed excellence. We really care that you focus on getting better every single day, and that's what we're going to do. But that like, it's also hard to hire people for the wrong reasons who care about working remote and like, you know, unlimited vacation. Right. So it's like, it's kind of like the old saying, like, choose your heart. Yes. It's going to be hard to recruit these type of people or you can, you know, focus on these other things that some people care about, but those aren't going to be the right people for your sales organization.

[John McMahon]

Well, jr, in this current environment, I'm really curious, do most of these athletes and military, ex military people want to work remote or do they want to be in an office where they can be mentored by others?

[J.R. Butler]

It's one of the first qualifying questions we ask John. Like, like where, where are you willing to work? Where are you willing to move? And like, we're unique because it's not just, we don't just get fresh candidates right out of school that are in their early 20s, don't have mortgages and families. Sometimes we deal with career transitioners. They, they taught for a few years, they're former athletes or vets that taught and they want to get this. Those are different situations. If I talk to a 23 year old kid with no mortgage, like no, like long term relationship, like no children, and they're like, yeah, I only want to live in central Ohio and I only want a remote job. That's a great indicator for us. Like, all right, do they really want it that bad?

[John McMahon]

Right. Yeah.

[John Kaplan]

That's an intelligence question right there. Being from Michigan, I gotta tell you, that'd be an intelligence knockout right there. Hey, I'm dying to ask this question to both of you. It always amazes me and I don't want to be critical, but this just is so important that like when I work with companies and I remember someone, somebody doing this to me when, when I was in corporate America, you know, making me stand up on the spot and answering the question, why would somebody want to work for this company? Go. And having to be audible ready at any point in time to be able to say that, why would somebody want to work for this company? So for our Listeners, if you are looking at a company, I want you to be prepared to ask somebody this question. If you are leading a company, I want you to be prepared to answer that question. And the other big question is, why would somebody want to work for you? Why would somebody want to work for you? And I just think that we get woefully prepared to do that. I've. I've heard. Very few times have I heard people be able to stand up on a dime and be able to say, let me tell you why this is a place for you, and let me tell you why I'm the coach or leader for you. And I think it's just a really, really good exercise.

[John McMahon]

So important, you know, in the companies I've been in, I can't tell you how many times people don't know how to sell the opportunity. They look at the interview as, like, I'm interviewing this candidate. If they want the job and I like them, then I'll hire. But they never look at it as, like, the candidates also interviewing me as the leader and the person they're going to work for. And I have to be able to sell the opportunity, and also not only the opportunity of working at this company, why this company over all the other things that they're looking at, so important, so many people can't sell the opportunity or why they should work for the leader. This leader can't sell themselves.

[John Kaplan]

And we got to remember with this, with this profile, certainly some of the people in the advanced military group that you're doing, junior, they've been recruited to different branches of military. Athletes have been recruited. And I'm not saying that you have to, you know, you know, woo people or what have you, but they are used to looking at bs. They're used to looking at a program that says, come here. It's all about grades. It's all about whatever. And they look around at the people that took them around on their visit, and they're like, that's not what's here. And so. So I think with this profile of candidates that you're working with, jr, you better be able to stand up in front of them and say, why is this a great place for you and why am I a great leader for you? And I just think, jr, would you. Would you agree, like, what are you seeing out there when you're talking to. You're probably asking that question to those companies.

[J.R. Butler]

Yeah, I think so. On one side, some companies have gotten really good at selling the opportunity. Meaning, like, hey, this is the size of the market we're going after. This is the IP that we have.

[John Kaplan]

Yeah.

[J.R. Butler]

That makes us unique, the roi, the time to value. This is who we sell to. This is our asp. And this is why we're going to beat the competition. That should be second nature. That's pretty easy. But when you look at like. And anyone who likes sports or hates sports analogy is going to hate this episode. But I'm going to do it anyway.

[John McMahon]

When you go for junior, go for it, buddy.

[J.R. Butler]

I think of like Bill Belichick, Bear Bryant, Vince Lombardi, Pat Summit and Nick Saban. All, all six of those coaches took over programs that were garbage, like, complete garbage. But then they won pretty quickly when they took over those programs. So they didn't have that, like, tam, you know, that stuff to sell. Like, they were selling, like, hey, you're going to come in here and you're going to be 10 times better in a year because of it. And that's like. And that's the type of people they got was like, yeah, I want to be part of that. Right. Like, you know, the Patriots, I, I grew up a Boston fan my entire life. Going to Foxborough Stadium, it was miserable until I was 17 years old, miserable. But Bill Belichick built a great program because of, hey, this is, this is the way we're going to make you better every single day. And I. All those coaches have examples like that so you can sell the opportunity. You also got to recruit based off of the development culture and the people that get excited about that. Those are the people that you want to go hire, in my opinion.

[Podcast Host]

Be sure to listen to the whole episode. It's linked in the show notes. Make it a great week.