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Revenue Builders
How Saturday Night Live Builds Teams That Perform Under Pressure with Lindsay Shookus
00:59:22
Lindsay Shookus spent 20 years at Saturday Night Live, including 10 years as a producer, where every week required a team of writers, cast members, celebrity hosts, musicians, producers, and crew to create a live show in six days. In this conversation, Lindsay joins John Kaplan and John McMahon to share what SNL taught her about building trust quickly, hiring people who elevate the room, reading talent under pressure, and creating a process that allows strong personalities to perform together.
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- [00:00]
Lindsay Shookus
When you really sit down that first day and you hear what a week at SNL is like, it is very intimidating. And in fact, you know, they had a dresser who tore off their clothes in the live show and got them naked. And if you waited till Saturday night to hear that, that's a lot to take in three hours of what you're about to do at show. So, like, you're trying to like, kind of warm them up and give them hints, but also like, not scare them half to death. Usually we would get people on good behavior because they realized to get the best outcome, the they needed to have this team and, and the team needed to like them and be pulling for them and want them to do great. Cause not to say anyone's ever going to like, sabotage a sketch, you know, it was a bunch of professionals. But listen, the work effort you get and the workflow, like, is going to be so much better when everyone loves you and wants you to kill it.
- [00:50]
Narrator
Welcome to the Revenue Builders Podcast, a weekly show featuring B2B sales leaders and executives. Hosted by five time CRO John McMahon and Force Management co founder John Kaplan, the show takes guests in the barrel behind the scenes with the people who've been there, done that, and seen the results. Revenue Builders covers best practices for scaling and growing your business while sharing the pitfalls to avoid.
- [01:18]
John Kaplan
Our very special guest today is Lindsay Shookas. Lindsey was with Saturday night live for 20 years. She spent 10 of those years as a producer of Saturday Night Live. And in addition to producing, Lindsay headed SNL's talent department, booking celebrity hosts and musical guests for the show, and also scouting and recruiting potential cast members. Lindsay was nominated for 10 Emmy Awards, winning four Emmys for her work on Saturday Night Live. In addition to Saturday Night Live, Lindsay also produced 45 episodes of the popular TV show 30 Rock. She was named one of Billboard's 50 Most Powerful Music Executives in both 2015 and 2016. And in 2018, Lindsay co founded the organization Women Work Hard with the purpose of the networking group to provide female entrepreneurs with a variety of resources and support in the pursuit of their goals. Welcome, Lindsay. So, Lindsay, you had to recruit music talent and celebrity talent onto snl. You had to get them booked, and then you only had six days to build a relationship with these people, develop trust, you know, gain some credibility to make the show. So walk us through like a high level look at that process, right?
- [02:47]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, you know, it's funny, a lot of people are like, well, when does, when does Saturday Night Live tape? You know, I used to get That a lot. And you're like, it actually is truly live there. And I think there's a misconception. There's no, you know, there's no tape delay. There's no, there's not even a five second delay at Saturday Night Live. So it really is live in its truest form. And, and Lorne, when Lauren created the show in 1975, he made it a six day creation. You know, it is, it starts on Monday, it ends on, on Saturday. There's nothing you can do really before Monday and there's nothing you obviously can do once it airs. So the show, the host comes in on Monday, they come in around Monday at 5 o' clock we get to like, you know, it was the first hello to them. On Tuesday we start kind of the writing process. And it would be like the writers would write about 50 sketches for the host. You know, I mean imagine the like the, we had so much excess of material because we just overwrote and, and then we would pare it down and on Wednesday that's when we'd have a read through and we'd actually like read all of the sketches out loud in a huge room and actually see like what does the room laugh at and what feels funny and what is the host good at. Wednesday night we would actually pick the show, which I always like to remind people. So that means the host wouldn't have any idea what they're doing on the show until Wednesday night. Like basically three days before they're on live tv. Thursday the musical guests would come in. So it's even shorter to book to like to build that relationship with a musical guest. Cause they come in on Thursday for the first time to rehearse. And we start sketch rehearsals Thursday and Friday, do a couple film pieces on Friday. And then Saturday you like run it one more time, you know, in front of just like our crew. And you kind of, the crew starts to kind of realize the pace and what do they have to do to make that all those turns and changes happen. And we do a dress rehearsal. We did a dress rehearsal from 8 to 10pm every Saturday with a live audience. And we'd have an excess of material again, 30 extra minutes so you could cut some stuff out that wasn't working. And then the show was live at 11:30. And the thing that's crazy and, and some people know this, but the dress rehearsal would end at 10:00 and the live show at 11:30. And we would cut out 30 minutes of material. I mean they're still doing it And. And sometimes on the spot, it'd be jokes. You know, sometimes you'd watch the monologue and dress rehearsal. It'd be a minute and a half longer than you watch it in the live show. And so we'd literally cut jokes, cut sketches, change costumes, change wigs. Credit to Lorne Michaels, because he would see things that nobody else would, and he'd be like, why is that painting hanging behind this person's head? Let's move that. And then live at 11:30. So it was. Obviously, it's great for adrenaline junkies because there's nothing else like it. And for people who really want to be prepared, it's a really hard, you know, show to do.
- [05:30]
John Kaplan
Talk about building trust with these people. So you get some really high performing people. You don't have, like, a lot of time, like you said, between Monday and then Wednesday, going to do the first rehearsal. You probably have to build some trust with them because maybe they don't want to do what you want them to do or they want to do it differently than you want to do. Maybe you're dealing with some big egos.
- [05:48]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah, all of the above. I mean, I think I learned pretty quickly that that kind of pressure can bring out either, like, the best in somebody or the worst in somebody. And I learned to not even, like, judge it when. When it was someone's had bad behavior, because typically it stemmed out of insecurity, right? Like, the pressure of, like, listen, nobody comes in SNL and is like, yeah, I want to be okay or I want to. I'll. I'll be fine if I'm bad. Everyone wants to be great when they come on snl. And so everyone's trying to achieve that. And therefore, it brings out, you know, a lot of. A lot of things in people, usually stemming from insecurity. So my job, I always. I. Once I got more senior at the show, and I was really the one who. Of meeting the host on Mondays, I found it easiest to just kind of almost call it out of, like, hey, this is crazy. Like, let's talk about what this week is like. But we have to trust each other. You have to trust me that I am here to help you be great on Saturday. And I have to trust that if. If there's something you're not comfortable with, like, you have to tell me. And, like. And then I would also say, like, how do you feel about feedback? You know, like, do you like feedback? Typically, when someone's asked if they like feedback, they say yes. It's rare that someone's like, no, no, not for me. And so it also gave me permission to be like, to say something that might be a little hard to say to someone that you met three days earlier. Because I, I set it up early in the week. But then I, you know, I, I just learned to kind of let my guard down, you know, and just the more human you can be with people, I always say if you can connect on feelings, doesn't matter if you're totally different than somebody, but if you can connect on a, on a feeling, you're, you're going to find common ground. So I just kind of learned to, yeah, let my guard down a little bit and find some way to be vulnerable with them that would help kind of create some sort of connection.
- [07:33]
John Kaplan
Yeah. You talked about making a lot of changes in the first week, even up until the last couple minutes of the show. So talk a little bit about what you learned about, you know, making those last minute decisions. Were you relying on your gut? Were you like, how did you go through a lot of that and then
- [07:50]
John McMahon
managing everybody's opinion about those last minute decisions should be.
- [07:55]
Lindsay Shookus
I mean, that's a great call, John. I mean, the truth is when you have a show that has over 20 something writers and over 16 cast members, which I'm not sure what the numbers are on the show right now, but it's probably something similar to that, which is what it was like when I was there. You're not going to make everybody happy. There's just no way to make everybody happy. And so you kind of maybe look at the show like a month. Okay. Like, okay, can we make everybody happy in a month? Maybe. But we're not going to be able to give everyone a starring sketch every week. It's just impossible. I mean, credit, again, credit to Lauren. Lauren really is someone who at a, you know, 10:30, gets a lot of heads in one room. And he really does. He's not just going on his own gut, he's going on the guts of like the six people he trusts. Plus, you know, the host weighs in. I always thought that was a really important part of the process because if the host hates something, it's not going to be good. You know, if they feel uncomfortable doing something or the musical guest or even a cast member, it's probably not going to be great. So you have to like get a lot of heads in the room. I mean, there were some times you, you were just going on gut, like you would be like, I. There was one time, I'm sure people have talked about this before. On, you know, publicly someplace. But I remember there was, Elton John was hosting. I mean, this is probably like, I don't know, the mid-2000s maybe. And there was, there were two sketches that were like, it was live. There was a live show and it was like, you know, maybe like 11 or no, I'm sorry, 1245. And you realize there was only going to be room for one more sketch. This happened a lot on Saturday nights. We would like, you know, we would put too many things into the live show and then we'd have to cut during the live show. And there was like two groups of people. Like one were dressed as all cowboys and the other one, I can't. It was like, you know, aliens or something. And you just saw the two in the hallway of like, well, what's going to happen? You know, and you're like. And then going. And I remember it being like we were trying to find out what Elton wanted, you know, like, what does he want? And you're trying to like peek over the curtain where he's getting dressed and being like, Elton, aliens are cowboys. Aliens are cowboys. But like, it's sometimes you're just going based on like a 10 second gut of like. Or if the host loved something, you would make sure the host had one thing they really loved in the, in the show.
- [10:08]
John McMahon
Yeah.
- [10:09]
John Kaplan
Because if they, like you said, then it's not going to come off the right way. It's going to, it's not going to be authentic, it's not going to feel right, it's going to feel phony.
- [10:16]
Lindsay Shookus
And if you want them to come back, they have a great experience. And so that part really matters, you know, and sometimes you're happy to never have come back, but a lot of times you want them back, you know, and so you have to have, you want them to have had a really enjoyable experience. And they also, they're like, by the way, your biggest referral. Talk about referrals. Ryan Gosling hosts SNL and has a great time. Who does he go and tell? You know, he's got some famous friends. He tells, you know, what you've been
- [10:45]
John McMahon
able, you've mentioned Lauren. It's Lauren Michaels, right?
- [10:48]
Lindsay Shookus
Yep.
- [10:48]
John McMahon
And, and, and there's been a lot of stuff written about him and his genius and he's always, was always in the background. I don't, I think he came on stage for like the, the anniversaries and stuff like that, but he's never on the skits. And would you just. With all that, you've got writers that became comedians that became movie writers. You've got, you know, everybody knows, a talent that's gone through Saturday Night Live that is just there as a character. What did you learn? If you could talk about, like, the top three things that you saw Lorne Michaels do from a leadership perspective, with all that talent around, is there anything that you think would resonate for our audience that would be a takeaway for you?
- [11:33]
Lindsay Shookus
I would say, God, Lauren. There's so many, like, Lauren Isms. It's funny. I have a whole board here of all my stories. I'm like, oh, this is actually great. First of all, he was one of those people who was like, hire people who can take your job. Like, let them be so great that you're scared they might take over for you. And I remember there being a point when I was, like, I don't know, maybe 26, and I was interviewing for somebody who was going to fill a role that I was leaving. And I remember honestly, like, not. There was one girl who, like, scared me. She kind of threatened me, and I didn't. I was like, oh, no, no, no, not her. Like, I was threatened by her. You know, as I got older, I really realized, like, God, these people just make you look good. And in fact, two of the girls I hired to be in my department now run the department, you know, like, so he was really. He was really about, like, hiring great people and then let them do what they do. You know, like, you don't hire the best set designer to then be, like, you know, micromanaging him. Lauren was great about that. You know, one of the things he. I don't know if this is, like, if this is a learning moment for leadership, but he used to say, people think about you for five minutes, and then they say, what do I want for lunch?
- [12:44]
John McMahon
Absolutely.
- [12:44]
Lindsay Shookus
And the idea of, like, how. How, like, me centric. We make everything, you know, and it's just like, we are. He used to say, we are the leads are in our own movie. I think that's, you know, it's good to keep in mind when you're, you know, you have a talent going through a show or you're trying to help someone negotiate a problem or get through a challenge, but also just, like, what a good thing for life to remember that, like, no one's thinking about you as much as you think they're thinking about you.
- [13:08]
John McMahon
We just had somebody on, and the podcast hasn't aired yet, so I'll just give a little teaser to it, but came up with this acronym, you know, called F.O.P.O. like, it's basically fear of other people's opinions.
- [13:21]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah.
- [13:22]
John McMahon
And. And then I went back and reread the book and I thought, holy smokes. That is such a big part of the human condition. And the more people that realize it, like, think about Saturday Night Live. The skit writers, the cast members, the. The guests that you would have were all born with this fear of other people's opinions because if you're outside the herd when back in the gathering days, you die. So you're always trying to be a part of the herd. And I'm just interested with all that talent. I always thought about that on Saturday Night Live. And all the people, the Eddie Murphys and all the people, the writers that went out became, you know, movie stars. Even the writers that were writers and they became movie stars managing all that talent. Was there something that you saw in the way that he treated people or. You know, sometimes you see people put a team of a players together and the team implodes because they can't. They can't figure out how to work together. Was there anything special in his secret sauce that get all that talent working in one direction?
- [14:22]
Lindsay Shookus
You know, I will say he, he always put a huge emphasis on us all meeting with people. Like, you know, we could. We'd have auditions and we'd, you know, I'll never forget when we auditioned, Kristen Wiig, she was incredible, right? She was unbelievable. And there was another girl who was also very good. And afterwards we. We would have them come back out and we would all just spend time hanging with them, Right. Like, everyone who ever got hired on the show always came and spent time with us. That's what we would, you know, and same with writers. Same with, like, my. The people that I hired, anyone of significance spent time socializing with people because Lauren used to say, like, at, you know, at 3:00am when you're walking down the hall, you have to want to see the person walking towards you.
- [15:07]
John McMahon
And so I think, call that the rowboat test. Like if, you know, if you hired somebody, when you're hiring somebody.
- [15:13]
Lindsay Shookus
Yes.
- [15:14]
John McMahon
You think about if you got stuck in a rowboat in the middle of a lake and you didn't have any oars, could you sit there for two or three hours or would you just jump in the fricking lake and swim to shore? Like, I can't spend any time with this person.
- [15:26]
Lindsay Shookus
By the way, that is the rowboat. And by the way, it worked really well because we were hiring people that we enjoyed being around. Right. We were taking them to you know, Lauren used to say, like, when you interview people, take them out from behind the desk. Like, you know, the first time you meet with them, you're gonna be like, here on a desk. Da, da, da. But then one of us had to always leave. And I remember I once met with an assistant. Like, I was hiring an assistant, and I went to breakfast with her or something, and I feel like I can talk to anybody. And I was, like, really struggling with the conversation. And I was like, oh, yeah, this isn't my person. Like, and I only would have realized that if I. If I took her to a meal. And we were trying to do more of, like, just regular human conversation. So, you know, the people. Really thinking about people beyond just their talent and skill set was really important. Because the truth is, you could be really talented. I mean, listen, anyone who's hired at snl, especially writers or cast members, they are talented. Like, if you audition for snl, you are funny. But, like, not everybody can navigate that social, you know, hierarchy, kingdom, craziness. And it's like, so you have to at least give them a better shot if, you know, they're gonna, like, fit in.
- [16:38]
John McMahon
Any examples of. Because it happens, like, people that get missed. They didn't make it at snl, but then they went off and they did great things. There's a lot of stories like that. There's people that didn't get hired at snl. And just talk a little bit about your observation of that. Was there anything missed or was it just underdeveloped or potential hadn't been realized yet? Do you have a good example of that without alienating anybody?
- [17:06]
Lindsay Shookus
I mean, I'm trying, like, you know, the first show that comes to mind is the show Hacks with Jean Smart that's on. It's, I think, just. Just ended. But two of the people, Paul Downs, who created the show and was on the show a little bit, and also Hannah Einbinder, they both auditioned for snl. You know, they. And they. They both were funny. They just didn't get hired. Or. Or there were people who were put on the show and didn't. Didn't, like, skyrocket to the top, but now are doing very well. There are people like Casey Wilson, who's done so well since she left. There's a guy named John Radnicky. There's people who have come and struggled a little bit to get their footing and maybe only made it a season or two. Tim Robinson is another one who was a cast member on SNL for a year, and he Just is like, he's all over Netflix. I mean, he's just done so well. So. So it's not necessarily, like I said, I go back to if you are hired at snl, you are funny. It's just a matter of like, can we figure out how to make it all work with all the different dynamics and all the different players?
- [18:13]
John McMahon
Well, in sales too, like, for us, it doesn't mean that you can't sell. It doesn't mean that you're not going to be successful. It's sometimes what happens is that there's a fit, like a cultural fit, and it's not a negative. It's like, you know, what will give people energy and what. We just had a con. We're just recruiting somebody. I just came out of a meeting and I said to the hiring team, I said, you're. You keep in mind, I know we all love this person, but you are going to have to spend an extra amount of energy to make them feel at their very best. And are you guys up for that? And it was kind of cool because they opted in. But I've seen when, when groups opt out and it didn't mean that person was a bad person, it just meant it's not going to work in our rhythm.
- [18:59]
John Kaplan
Yeah, it's like a lot of times in our companies because we, we do startups and then grow them really fast. Lindsay. It's like sometimes people are good at a different stage because company has a different culture. And you can actually see that this individual is never going to fit in with this team dynamics. And that doesn't mean, like, to your point that those writers or actors were bad at that point. It's just that they might not have fit in those team dynamics with that, with that team. They might fit with another team, but not this one.
- [19:28]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, also, I mean, at one of the companies that I do coaching for now, I've seen it where like, they were right two years ago. And then as the company's grown and expanded and become, you know, more successful, bigger, you know, kind of more in the corporate wheel, like, maybe they don't fit as well as they did two weeks ago or two years ago. And we have to make a change now. And you know, to go back to something you just said, John, about, about the opt in, like, that's an important part because a lot of times very rarely do people like, feel like they're given that opt in. Kind of like what I said, the permission, right?
- [20:00]
John McMahon
Like, yeah.
- [20:00]
Lindsay Shookus
And so then it makes you like, you're like, yeah, like, you have incentive and ownership in trying to make this person great. And it's a. To. It's so as leaders, to do that is such a great call because it gets everyone united. And we should all do that more when we hire. When we hire new people.
- [20:18]
John McMahon
And when you said what Lorne Michaels did was make everybody know each other, it probably gave more confidence for a writer to be. Have more confidence to go to a guest and say, hey, man, I wrote this, like, just for you. And I think if you did it this way, it would be. But it's got to be authentic. In our business, we have technical engineers and we have sellers and we have, you know, you speak when you're supposed to speak and you do this when you stay in your lane type thing. And I think when you probably have. Under that leadership condition of everybody knows and trusts each other, there's going to be more opportunity to take. Really? Really. And people are going to trust that it's authentic.
- [20:58]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, I mean, like, I'm sure you guys have seen, like, you know, things are always better when. When people feel safe enough to take risk and innovate and do something they wouldn't maybe do. And that's, you know, that's top down. You got to feel supported. And I think that is, you know, that's across the board. That's definitely not just an SNL thing. That is. That is, you know, in business, right, you have to. The more you feel safe to either speak up about something that might go wrong or take a risk that's an innovation, the better all of us are. But, you know, it's. When you. When I think back to my time at the show, you know, listen, it's like, I was a talent person, so, you know, I was good at talent. So sometimes, you know, a shy writer might come to me and be like, do you think so? And so might do my sketch. And I was always, again, Lauren would be like, get the talent in the room together, even if they're scared, because it's like, no one's going to sell their vision better than the person who made it. Like, even though, like, I'm good at, like, I could go in and talk to Elon Musk and I can talk to whoever put me in the room with ever, whoever it is I was, okay? It's like, yeah, but that's not my thing, right? And so I can sit there and I support them, but I would, as much as I could, get the, like, visionary in the room, because they're going to sell it with passion.
- [22:09]
John Kaplan
When they were doing these acts, do you think the best people rely more on their confidence and their swagger or on really prepping?
- [22:19]
Lindsay Shookus
I don't think anyone ever became, like, the best host ever, because they were, like, super prepared. I think, you know, I really believe that the best hosts were ones that. Yes, they. They weren't super. They didn't feel like they had something to prove. Maybe that's a huge thing. You know, like, if you are. If you're comfortable. Like, I remember thinking like, Peyton Manning. Peyton manning hosted in 2007, right after the Colts when they won the Super Bowl. It was Peyton Manning's 30th birthday. At that point, he was not known for any kind of comedy. He was pretty dry. People, you know, people didn't think he had.
- [22:56]
John McMahon
I remember it.
- [22:58]
John Kaplan
I remember.
- [23:00]
Lindsay Shookus
And I always tell the joke about how at, like, 11:15 on that Saturday night, I. I looked at him and I was like, I don't. I can't believe I was 27. So I was. I was still young. And I said, I'm like, are you nervous? And he's like, well, Lindsay, I'm pretty used to performing under pressure on live national television, so I think I'll be okay. And, like, honestly, like that, you know, where you're like, he did. He had a job. Like, he's like, I don't need to be great at this. And. And because there was not this pressure to be the best, he. He could, like, sit back and find the joy. This one, I would always tell hosts before. Before they would go on, is like, this is like a life moment. Like, you've. You've already earned the spot to be here. So don't, like, don't let it all get weighed down in this. Like, well, it's gotta be perfect. It's not meant to be perfect. If it was, we'd film it, and we'd take three weeks. Like, the people who did the best. To answer your question, John, the people who did the best were the ones who had fun, like, who were like, God, they're really having fun doing it. You know, sometimes comedians could really have a hard time because they felt so much more pressure to be the best. Right? Like, I'm a comedian. I remember Dave Chappelle, when he came on the show for the first time, he was. He really wanted to be great. So there was a lot of pressure on his shoulders. He hadn't been on television in 10 years, and he was like, I gotta be fantastic. And that's. That's hard.
- [24:19]
John McMahon
That's a lot bringing up, you're bringing up such a great point, Lindsey. And like high performing teams which we've either been a part of or, or we're a part of one now or we long to be a part of. It doesn't matter, like, you know what that feels like. But what you just said, like when you encourage like great leaders, I have found, and I remember playing sports where somebody was like to me, like, don't try to put yourself in the center of everything. Like, you don't. There's really good play. I went to PTC when Johnny hired me at PTC and I, I thought that, you know, I was compensating for. I wasn't very technical. It was an engineering software. And so I was trying to insert myself into everything and like show what I could do because I had some insecurities about not being very relevant. And it was kind of like I had a conversation with John and I won't, I'll have to clean it up with the expletives that he said to me. But it was basically like, you know, you know, we don't need you to carry the, carry the room. Like we hired you to come do this. You'll get a chance to carry the room when you. But we don't need you to do that right now. And the feeling of being surrounded by really great people and then the pressure to do your job, like, okay, I got to do my job really well. It was almost like amazing. It was like, you know, like Peyton Manning probably said, I just know I got to be Peyton Manning and you guys are going to help me be a little bit funnier and a little bit more relevant or whatever. But I'm just going to go be Peyton Manning. And that's a great leadership lesson, I think, because you can crush people when they think they got the whole team on their back and they get too much pressure.
- [26:00]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, you don't have to be the star in every sketch either. And that, I mean that's, you know, put that into the business world. It's the same thing, right? It's kind of what you just said. It's the show or a business is looked at its entirety. Right? And so Chris Rock used to say, like, when you're to be a great host, you really just have to have like a good monologue and one other sketch that people love. That's all. Then they're going to be like, oh yeah, that was a great show. And like, you know, when you, when you pull back and you're like, it doesn't have to be. I don't have to be everything. And I, you know, again, I would see hosts who didn't want to, you know, put a sketch in where they were just kind of like a, you know, supportive role because they thought they had to be like the funny person sketch. And it's like, well, that, you know, you're just, you're gonna, you could kill one of the best sketches ever because you want, you feel like you need to be the funny one and like, like go like Kate McKinnon or, you know, Jason Sudeika. Someone score who, who we know can be great.
- [26:52]
John McMahon
Amazing.
- [26:53]
John Kaplan
That happens in meetings. We have to go meet the, what we call the economic buyer. So you get looking to get a big deal. Salesforce been working on it for six to nine months, finally get a meeting with the economic buyer. And the pressure is enormous, especially if it's like a multimillion dollar deal or to Johnny's point. You got to bring a good team around. You really don't have to carry the weight all by yourself. So we see that a ton in sales time. And if you're in a, if I don't get this deal, I wipe out my ear. I may get shot, I may not have a job.
- [27:24]
Lindsay Shookus
So how do you, how do you study the team then, like, you know, since it is so pressuresome, you know, I, I know how I used to do it with SNL hosts before a show. But like, or our team. But like, how do you study your team before you do the pitch?
- [27:39]
John Kaplan
Well, you have to do yet, like, to Johnny's point and to yours also, you have to know what the strengths of everyone is on your team and let them do their job at the right time when it comes up. You can't over choreograph things. Like what would happen is like, maybe I'm in a car going on a economic buyer meeting with the sales rep who's really nervous, and they say, okay, when we get in there, Joe's going to say this, and then you say that and then Sally's going to say this and then you respond this way and I go, whoa, whoa, oh, hold on a second. I can't do that. Like, I can go in there and I can be me, but I can't go in there and start worrying about if they're going to say that. Then I say this. I got to, I got to act naturally and I have to have a good team around me that can do
- [28:21]
John McMahon
that thing that's related to talent and letting the talent be who they are. Which I think is amazing. But also, Lindsey, what you said. I'm going to rephrase something you said earlier. Is that in customers for us, like highly skilled customers, highly skilled economic buyers that, you know, we might get a little intimidated by or what have you. I always said to myself, everybody loves to be led. It's human nature, provided you can take them to a place they can't get to on their own. So when. When that is the. And you're interacting with people like that, then a big part in business and it's the same, I'm sure, was that Saturday Night Live, you guys had a process. This wasn't winging it. You guys were working on this for seven days. So once somebody entered into the process and they're like, there's evidence that if I do what Lindsay's telling me, and I do it the way that the writers are telling me and they got all these Emmys, they're probably going to get an outcome that I'm worried about getting on my own. And that is some of the most galvanized even. I found this when I've interviewed great athletes that played on great championship teams. When you ask them what they miss, you know, people say the locker room or whatever, that's okay. That's the camaraderie. But when you really ask them what they miss, it was the rigor of the process. Like, I didn't really have to make a lot of decisions. It was, you know, back in the old days, it was. I'd go in the locker room. There was a. There was. It told me what time I had to be there and eat breakfast. It told me what time I had to get my ankles taped. It told me what time I had to be in the position meeting. It told me what time I had to go do this and do that. And honestly, I missed that because I knew that I just bring my best self to the process and we were going to win. And I think that that's. You know, what you've been describing at Saturday Night Live is that you guys, I'm sure you understood that you had a winning process, and when you explained it to people, they're like, oh, okay, I trust that.
- [30:17]
Lindsay Shookus
It's funny because now I. My. It's. It's. It's changed the way my brain works. You know, like, my brain is like, even still, I haven't been there for a few years. Like, even just the way, like, everything's based on. I. I can read a calendar, and I could tell you what day is the Saturday in Like, six months. Because, like, the way my brain reads calendars is just like, so, you know, my whole entire life was like, always leading to Saturday. When you really sit down that first day and you hear what a. A week at SNL is, like, it is very intimidating. And in fact, I even tried to, like, tell. I wanted them to know so they weren't like, you know, they had a dresser who tore off their clothes in the live show and got them naked. And if you waited till Saturday night to hear that, that's a lot to take in three hours before you're about to do a show. So, like, you're trying to, like, kind of warm them up and give them hints, but also, like, not scare them half to death, you know? Listen, to. Go back to what you're saying about the sport, the athletes, usually we would get people on good behavior because they realized to get the best outcome, they needed to have this team. And. And the team needed to like them and be pulling for them and want them to do great because, not to say anyone's ever gonna, like, sabotage a sketch, you know, it was a bunch of professionals. But listen, the work effort you get and the workflow, like, is gonna be so much better when everyone loves you and wants you to kill it. Right?
- [31:37]
John McMahon
It's a total being on a team. Yeah, same with being on a team. Nobody. Nobody likes a bad teammate. Even if you're all pro, you know, it's different. Like, you hear that all the time. People will say that if you have an environment where everybody's rooting for each other, and I'll cover for you if I know that you're going to be. You're going to have trouble on this play. And there's no problem for me covering for you. You know, I'm doing it. I know I'm doing it. And you're going to do it for me on something that I'm not great at. Those are the best teams on the planet. It takes a personality because you have A players, and that's what I've always been interested. I look at stuff like Saturday Night Live. There's no B players. Like, they're all A players.
- [32:15]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah, well, that's the hope. That's what you're. I always say when or they don't
- [32:20]
John McMahon
last very long if they're not when
- [32:21]
Lindsay Shookus
you're hiring some, by the way, but they can also be A players who just don't fit in. But it's like, when you're hiring, you're always like, you want everyone to win. Right. That's the goal. Like, you're not ever. You don't ever want someone to, to not work out when you're, when you're pulling people into that show.
- [32:36]
John Kaplan
That goes back to what you said earlier where you wanted to hire people better than you. We have a saying in sales. A's recruit A's, and Bs recruit Cs. Yes, it's so true. Time after time again. So talking about recruiting, you were constantly recruiting. You had to have a pipeline of talent for every week. Right? And then you also recruiting people onto your team. Were there certain traits that you thought, I gotta have? These traits, these behavioral traits or characteristics in a person that's really gonna separate them from everybody else. There's certain traits you love to have in people.
- [33:13]
Lindsay Shookus
I mean, I would separate it into like, funny, right? Like the people who you knew had to be funny versus the people who didn't. For the people who were like the soldiers with me, like the, you know, the people behind the scenes, producers, staff. Like, I felt like, especially in talent, the talent department. And I think this is, you know, for many people in high up. Leadership job. Leadership jobs, you want people who can read a room. And that's. It's hard to teach it and it's hard to really know it. But like, that was something I was, I needed. I needed someone who could come in and see if, like, if Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger are in there and they're having a conversation that you shouldn't be a part of, you need to walk out. Or if they seem like they're lost and they need help, you need to lean in and like, knowing when to do what was a huge part of the people who worked, who worked with me. So reading a room was a huge one and I think is just a really important skill.
- [34:08]
John McMahon
How did you hire for that, Lindsay?
- [34:10]
Lindsay Shookus
You know, you listen, I did a lot of meetings before I would hire somebody. A lot of questions a lot. It's like a. So a psychological experiment, you know, are they good listeners? You know, like, that's a really big one. Do they.
- [34:22]
John Kaplan
That goes with intuition. It goes hand in hand.
- [34:24]
Lindsay Shookus
Yes, yes. Do they listen? You know, what's their gut? How. How are they sitting in the room? How are they paying attention? You know, at snl, there's always people coming in. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I would be doing an interview and then like Alec Baldwin would walk in and start talking to them and you'd be like. It was a great example of like, how are they going to Deal with this. Like, that was perfect for me. When someone would come in while Chris Martin walks in from Coldplay while I'm doing an interview. You're like, great. Because then I get to really. I'm getting more data. But for me, again, it was just really getting time to really talk to them as humans.
- [34:54]
John McMahon
It's not one interview, one resume, one interview. People try to cut corners and say. Say, I know everything there is to know about this person. On paper, I'm good.
- [35:01]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, you know, also, I. When I was hired at snl, I. I did, like, five weeks of interviews. I mean, I didn't have any experience in talent. I mean, I remember her being like, have you ever worked my. This is my old boss, Marcy Klein. She was a producer at the show when I started, and she was like, have you ever worked with talent? And in my head, I had had an internship at a film company, but, like, I really was like, you know, photocopying newspapers and, like, faxing, you know, faxing things. And I remember thinking, well, I. In my head, I was like, well, one time I handed a coffee to Jackie Chan. So I was like, yes, yes, I have. I have worked with talent. But the truth is, like, she just asked me a lot of. I remember when I interviewed with her, she was just asking me things about me and who I was and what I did in college. And it was not really about, like, television. When you go to a place like snl, and I'm sure, like, a lot of the companies you work with, when you're young and you're coming in, you're gonna. They're gonna learn, right? They're gonna learn on the job. It's trial by fire. You're gonna. If you have those basic skills of, like, do you work hard? Do you have good to. In good intuition? Can you communicate? Okay, well, then we're gonna teach you the rest. And. And so I learned that it wasn't really about finding somebody who was. Who had the best resume. It was like. Because the best resume doesn't mean necessarily gonna mean the best employee, especially at a place like snl. So really getting to know them. Yeah. Multiple interviews. And not just sticking to the piece of paper, really going, adaptability.
- [36:28]
John McMahon
I would think that, like, because everything's so chaotic, every part of that talent machine and the support groups for the talent machine, you have to have a mindset of adaptability. Do you have any advice on how to interview for that or how to, like, how did you guys do it? I mean, you can't be too Rigid. If you're rigid, you're going to fail there, right?
- [36:51]
Lindsay Shookus
Oh, I mean. But I think adaptability is probably one of the most important things across the board in leadership in business. I think, especially in these unusual times. Like, I just think right now, adaptability is probably one of the. Every single person should be hiring people that can be malleable and can read a room and then gracefully pivot. That's what we should all be looking for when I'm hiring, you know, because everything's changing. And I mean, even before, I probably would have said this, but now it's just like, it is constant. Everything is in flux, and every single industry is facing it. It's not just yours or mine or it's everyone's dealing with it. So, you know, I talk about adaptability on stage a lot in my speaking career. It's one of my favorite things to talk about. I talk about athletes a lot just because I think, you know, athletes were so much fun to work with because they spent their entire lives being told what they were doing wrong. And they didn't use it as. They weren'. Off. They weren't offended by it. They used it as, you know, and. And it was much different than actors. You know, like, actors need to be much more careful. But I always talk about Peyton Manning, how he just was like, tell me what. How's my speed? How's my tone? Am I looking here? Am I looking here? Like, line reads like he's like. He just was, like, craving information. Alex Rodriguez, same thing. Like, you know, Alex Rodriguez, a rod takes out a pat, illegal pat, and will be like, tell me more. What else could I do better? You know, what else can I do better? And I mean, I always say, like, imagine if we all got better at being like, hey, where can I get better? And so I talk about just like a character, a thing that all of us can get better at is being more coachable. And I think that's one of the best traits to adaptability is like, you know, asking people, your bosses, your employees, you know, your day contractors, your production staff, your partners, your kids, and not being afraid to be like, hey, how can I support you better? How can I do this better? What could I have done better? Better in that situation, we're scared of it.
- [38:45]
John McMahon
A lot of times right now, that's when you're building. You're building the championship team. Let's say now you have a championship team. Do you find that some championships, teams. Stop asking, what can we do to be better? We're winning the Freaking Super Bowl. So if I wanted your opinion, like, do you ever find, like, do you see that in. Do you see that in organizations? Do you lose that adaptability the more successful you are?
- [39:11]
Lindsay Shookus
Listen, I think you definitely lose it. Should you lose it, you shouldn't lose it. By the way, the best people are the ones who keep that. That kind of sense of, like, there is no end to my growth. I can always get better. I think it's one of the most attractive qualities in a person of just like, I can always get better. There's no end to it until the day I die. I can get better. Listen, I look at SNL and. And I think this applies to kind of, you know, business in general is like, you can rest on your laurels, right? You can. SNL could so easily be a version that it was in. In 1995, you know, yes, it would be more technically impressive and, you know, HD and all the stuff. But, like, Lauren is somebody who isn't afraid to just be like, nope, we got it. We got to change. We got a new blood. We got to change things. This isn't. Let's not just do what we did last year, because we know we can and it's comfortable. Let's, you know. And that's why sometimes you'll see people leave when, even though you think they're great cast members, and then all of a sudden, they're not there the next year. That's because Lauren's like, okay, well, we're going to do something new this year. And he doesn't just, you know, they don't rest on their laurels. And. And I think that's a thing that we all can take, right? Is like, not, don't just do what you did last year because you know you can. And it. Because it works. Because oftentimes when you just keep doing what it works, somebody's going to outpace you. Someone's going to come up with a new, new innovation, and. And then you're going to be left behind.
- [40:36]
John McMahon
You're either growing or you're dying. Is really the amen.
- [40:39]
Lindsay Shookus
Amen.
- [40:39]
John Kaplan
Yeah.
- [40:40]
John McMahon
Yeah.
- [40:40]
John Kaplan
Cap. It's pretty refreshing to hear her talk about coachability, adaptability, intuition, listening. Because those are the things we always talk about with characteristics, Lindsay. So we talk about brains, drive, coachability, adaptability, integrity. And some of the skills are listening and intuition. And actually, one of the things on intuition when I have people in a room because salespeople is supposed to be intuitive, right? And if I'm in an interview with them after like, 50 minutes I look at them and say, how do you think you're doing?
- [41:14]
John McMahon
Yeah.
- [41:14]
John Kaplan
Really want to know what they think. Now, there may not be any really right answer or wrong answer, but I want to hear why they think they're doing the way they answered that of how they were doing.
- [41:24]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, also put them on their feet. Like, right. Like, they. I think it's, like, what happens. It's not, like, a ton of pressure, but a little bit of pressure. The. The vibe has just changed for a second. Like, what do you do? You know, that's a. That again, reading the room. Adaptability. Like, are you funny? Are you serious? Like, how you take it is like. And then also you get to. It gives you a little glimpse into, like, who they are. Right. Culturally. Like, are they, like, totally off guard? Are they, like. They don't have to say.
- [41:50]
John Kaplan
I think the biggest thing in an interview is trying to get inside their head, not asking superficial questions. You want to get inside their head. How do they think? That's. That's what I think is really key.
- [42:01]
John McMahon
There's two of them that I, like you guys are talking about is, if I had to stop this interview right now, what do you think I like most about this interview? And what do you think's causing me pause? And you're not trying to be an ogre. You're not trying to be. But that's a great way to test intuition and then see how people react. Because I've had some great examples where people have actually told me exactly what I was thinking, and then what did they do with it? So, okay, I'm thinking that you don't have enough experience. And I don't even have to say it, but they start to reframe. One of the reasons why I interviewed for this job is I don't have the experience, but I want to come to this team and learn. And so it's not just, are they intuitive, but do they have the ability to take that intuition and make something great out of reading another person?
- [42:53]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah.
- [42:54]
John McMahon
I don't know. I just don't think enough people do that in our profession today. People are. I think there's a lot of corners getting cut a lot.
- [43:04]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, something other, Other John said earlier about, you know, prepping your team for a pitch that's high pressure is like, I go back down, like, in kind of. Some of the stuff you were saying, John, is like, authenticity. Like, you know, leadership has changed so much over the last 30 years, and, like, leadership used to be so much more about being, like, revered and superhuman and now it's much more about, like, authenticity and connection and. And those. And by the way, not everybody can do it. It's not a thing that everybody has. But if you can, especially for some of these, you know, sales jobs, communication jobs, C suite jobs, when you're trying to get. You need to have influence. Like, authenticity is one of those things that is just. It is gold when you are trying to motivate a team.
- [43:49]
John Kaplan
We had this guy, Doug Holiday on, who wrote a book called Rethinking Success. And what he said, Lindsay, was that people are not attracted to, like, the statue leadership person. They're attracted to your broken parts. Then they can understand you're human, I'm human. You're broken, I'm broken. We're both, you know, have some traumas in our life, and we can be attracted to each other that way, but we can't. If you think you make like, you have no problems and you're great and, you know, everything that goes is associated with that.
- [44:23]
John McMahon
I like that so much. And an authenticity you've reminded me with authenticity is asking the question. I've loved this question. And you have to do it with like, it's got to come from your heart. Then it enters the heart of all who hear it. But you got like, what don't you want me to know? Like, what haven't we talked about that you don't want me to know? And when I say it with a smile and I say it with energy, a lot of times people will tell me what I'm probably going to find in a reference check, what I'm probably going to find in a. And the authenticity of it. Not only do you have to be authentic in the way that you ask it, you can't ask it like a smart aleck, and you can't answer it like a smart aleck. Like, well, I'm not going to tell you anything I don't know. And I've had some unbelievable. I've had. I asked this question to somebody one time, and I was not looking for this, but they told me, and, you know, I don't want to get in trouble with HR or whatever. They told me something on a dui, and I was not expecting it. And they were. And I'm like, hey, thank you for sharing that with me. That's not. I'm not interested in that. But I. But I thought it was so authentic. They're like, well, I got a DUI I'm not proud of. And I needed to make sure that that's not part of the interview process. But I've gotten some great answers where people will say, well, you didn't really ask me why I left that job. The two previous ones before.
- [45:45]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:46]
John McMahon
And I was. I'm surprised you didn't ask me that. And it's just, man, you get a bond. You get a bond with people where, like, I'm open. You're open to hear it. You're giving me space to tell it to you. And I just think it's a. I think it's.
- [45:59]
John Kaplan
I've had people. I ask people, what's the toughest situation you ever been in your entire life?
- [46:03]
John McMahon
Yes.
- [46:04]
John Kaplan
And you got to be prepared. If you're going to ask that question and you're going to listen to their story, you got to be prepared. I mean, I've had people totally breaking down in my office.
- [46:15]
John McMahon
Well, we all have trauma, right?
- [46:17]
John Kaplan
Then what. I found out so much more about their character and the way in which they came back from. From that trauma. And I was like, wow, this. This person's really impressive.
- [46:26]
Lindsay Shookus
I mean, listen, you know, Jamie Dimon has this great quote about, like, resilience and failure and get, like, how, like, those are the people you want to hire, because it's like, they've actually gone through it. Like, the people. The people who have, like, made mistakes, learned from them, you know, had to shake through the embarrassment or the fear or the, you know, shame and, like, grow and. And also realizing the people who realize that. Listen, I don't know about you guys, I. I thought I. When I was younger, I just thought it was all kind of a straight line, and it was just going to be like, you go here, and then you get. And you get this thing and then this, and, you know, and I didn't realize how. How much of a roller coaster it is. And, you know, going back to what you said earlier, John, I became such a better leader once I started to go through some real stuff that, like, broke me and made me more vulnerable and made me realize that some of the hardest things I've gone through have made me a better version of myself. Like, the person I am today that I am so proud of is definitely because of all the stuff that was awful, you know, the stuff that, like, that I used to look at and be like, oh, I wish I could erase it. And now I'm like, oh, my God, those are the scars that, like, made me a better leader, a better partner, a better mom. You know, like, those are the things that we have. As long as you learn from them, you know, as long as you imagine those things.
- [47:44]
John Kaplan
That's such a key point. So many people get in those situations, and then all of a sudden they're victims, and they live the rest of their life as a victim. They don't learn from it and say, well, what. What's the world really trying to tell me right now? What do I need to do differently? How do I need to adapt? How do I need to change?
- [48:02]
John McMahon
Yeah, I want to encourage and challenge all of the listeners that we have right now. So we're talking about this. But, like, in the interview process, if you don't go here, you're not going to see, you know, you're not going to see a real human being. And if you don't know the human being that's not like those. Whatever Samsonite luggage we're carrying, it just. We don't drop it at the door when we get hired. Like, it comes into the building. And I found that the people that have the bet, the most successful people I've ever met in my life are the people that have made sense of their own story. So they understand their story, and they've made sense of their own story. Like. Like you guys were talking about. I understand it. It's not a. And I used. I, I'm. I. One of my favorite sayings is, there's no heroes and there's no victims. It's just a story, and we all have one. And the more you can get to that, like, probably what you did, Lindsey, when you were talking to the talent coming in, if you could get them to be a little bit vulnerable and they shared with you what they thought a great outcome would be and what they're worried about what a bad outcome would look like. And you just. You just need to show them that you got a process. They're going to wine. It's probably never going to be as good as they thought it was going to be, and it's never going to be as bad as they thought it was going to be. Those are the best leaders that I've ever seen. But you got. If you're not talking to people about scar tissue and you're not willing to show your own scar tissue, I, I just. You. I don't think. I don't think you can lead today. I just don't think it's authentic.
- [49:30]
Lindsay Shookus
I. What I would say to that is that, like, because I think there are a lot of people. I, you know, when I'm on the road and I'm speaking, there are a lot of people when I talk about vulnerability. That's a big section of one of my keynotes. And it's like, a lot of people I can see it typically is more men than women, but are just like. Like, I can see them shut off when I start talking about.
- [49:48]
John McMahon
And.
- [49:49]
Lindsay Shookus
And so I do say, like, if it makes you feel weird if, like, asking that question, like, what do. What don't you want me to know makes you feel weird, start someplace. Like, you don't have to go from zero to 60. You don't have to also, like, go into someone and, like, cry in their lap.
- [50:02]
John McMahon
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:02]
Lindsay Shookus
But, like, start with maybe John's thing of, like, how do you think this is going? Like, everyone can. And because here's the thing, you can get better at it. And as somebody who was. I was like, the version John was saying I was super perfect and nothing's wrong and I won't, you know, you're never going to see me sweat. I was like that until about the age of 33. And now vulnerability is my superpower. And I. I wouldn't have given you anything when I was 28 years old. So you can get better at it, but you have to start someplace and you have to practice and you have to push yourself to be uncomfortable and
- [50:36]
John Kaplan
you have to accept the fact that everybody has issues. You're not the only one.
- [50:41]
Lindsay Shookus
Again, but we're the lead in our own movies, so we, like, think it's, like, about us.
- [50:44]
John McMahon
Right.
- [50:45]
Lindsay Shookus
Like, everybody has it.
- [50:46]
John Kaplan
That's right. So you mentioned Lauren a number of times. Were there certain principal leadership principles or characteristics that he had that still resonate with you today?
- [50:59]
Lindsay Shookus
He didn't take no for an answer. Like, just like, as somebody who worked for him, you were always like, you just. You learn to just like, oh, well, maybe there's another way I can. It's, you know, for sales, it's like another way to turn it or twist it or. I was always trying, you know, if I was chasing something, I just wouldn't accept. No. Which as a. As a. A lifetime rule follower, felt weird to me. And that was a really good skill that I had to develop working for him. Oh, you know what? This is funny. And this is maybe a little bit more as applies to, like, show business. But I'm going to say it anyways because I think it's really fascinating. Lauren always used to say, like, be missed. Like, if you're everywhere all the time and people can access you, like, you lose.
- [51:44]
John McMahon
Totally relevant, you know? Yeah.
- [51:47]
John Kaplan
Especially these days. Yeah.
- [51:48]
Lindsay Shookus
You know, and so it's. Yeah. Especially nowadays, like, right, because you can like go on to Instagram and see what someone puts in their smoothie, whereas like 15 years ago, you couldn't even like, ever see them at all. And, you know, you can look at it this way. There's like a difference between, you know, like, George Clooney is like an old school movie star, right? He still does very. He does little press, like Leonardo DiCaprio. There's a few guys who still kind of stand by this thing of like, don't go to every opening, don't go to. Don't be seen everywhere, because then people feel like they own you and they have access to you constantly. It's like, be special and, and just really being strategic about what you do to protect that. I would, I would have never thought about it before.
- [52:29]
John McMahon
I worked at SNL and in business. I love this so much. I'm gonna just translate it in. In the room. Be missed in the room. You could be in the room. But if you're slow to speak and people are wondering, like, the biggest compliment you can get is, hey, Lindsay, what do you think? Yes, that's it. And people don't really understand that's a compliment. And they want to know what you think. And it's hard to do because in today's society, it's like, well, I got to make my position known. I got to. And so there's somebody on our show, I can't remember who, but somebody said, if you focus on being interested versus interesting, you're going to get a better outcome.
- [53:10]
Lindsay Shookus
Oh, being curious. I mean, being curious is another way, great way to build trust. You can ask. I always say, like, everyone can get better at asking questions. Like, find your question. Bank can get deeper and wider. And like, there's so many ways to get people to open up. But be come to everything with curiosity. I think some of the best leaders. My uncle was like the most incredible businessman and he was a great listener. It was like he. And he could get, by the way, he could be loud and he could completely run a room, but he could also get quiet and be curious in the corner and let everybody else do their thing. Which is kind of what you just said, John. It's like, you know, learn to do both. You know, the people who are really successful can do both. And you're right, they don't have to be heard. I mean, we all been to like a dinner where someone just won't stop talking. You're like, yes. Yeah. Be missing. We know.
- [54:01]
John Kaplan
Yeah.
- [54:02]
John McMahon
So good.
- [54:03]
John Kaplan
Hey, Lindsay, you co founded an organization?
- [54:07]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah.
- [54:07]
John Kaplan
Can we talk about this?
- [54:08]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah, let's talk about it.
- [54:09]
John Kaplan
Women work hard with the purpose of the group to, I think it's to provide female entrepreneurs with a variety of resources and networking capabilities. Right. You want to talk a little bit about that?
- [54:22]
Lindsay Shookus
Sure. It, we're on our eighth year. It really.
- [54:25]
John Kaplan
Oh, is it eight years now?
- [54:26]
Lindsay Shookus
Eight years? Yeah, we, we started it. I mean, it was meant to be one night and then eight years later, here we are planning for our next big event. It's really about trying to help women change their mindset to be better at helping women. It's like if we were going to put the analogy of like men on golf courses, like really doing deals and really talking about, talking about money, talking about things that a lot of times aren't, aren't happening in the actual office and trying to get women to be a little bit better at that and walking into a room being like, hey, how can you help the women around you more, you know, with their network, with their businesses, with their resources, with their time and just be more thoughtful about it? You know, if you look at, you know, VC money, right, the stats are like terrible. Like, you know, women founded companies get 2% of VC funding and it's something like they're like, you know, 45% of companies. And so it's like the numbers are so off. So we're just trying to encourage women to be better at like mentorship, supporting each other, investing. You know, women tend to be great at charity, but not so good at investing, getting a better relationship with investing. You know, we obviously love it when it's women founded companies and we bring really great heart forward women together. We have a no asshole rule. So we, if you're an asshole, we get rid of you because I don't have time for that in my life anymore.
- [55:43]
John Kaplan
Those are the people that are not authentic. They don't have any broken parts.
- [55:46]
Lindsay Shookus
Yeah, yeah, just, I'm not, you know, or users. Like, I'm not interested in bringing a bunch of users into a room. I'm like, I want people. It's, it's, there's no problem taking, but you got to be a giver, you know, and, and, and the, the idea is also like, we have so much to give. Even my friends who are like stay at home moms, you know, they're like, oh, I'm a stay at home mom. I'm like, I'm sorry, do you not run a household? You have 85% of the purchasing power in your house. You, you, you, you Know all of your husband's, you know, world. Like you have things in your brain. Use them. There's ways to use it to, to be better. So we just bring really great women, impressive founders and C suite and executives together and, and, and try and get them to collaborate and do more to help each other.
- [56:29]
John McMahon
How does somebody learn more about what you're doing? Do you do a podcast? Do you do.
- [56:33]
Lindsay Shookus
No, we have our website, we have events, we do go on Instagram. We do like, you know, newsletters. We always trying to get people to, to be better about, you know, even if it's just like when you buy a gift, like you know, you're buying leggings, like you could buy it from like a huge corporation or you could just maybe probably spend 10 more dollars and support a woman founder who actually really needs the business. Like really being thoughtful and intentional about how you shop is a great way to do it.
- [56:58]
John McMahon
Is it, is it that title in Instagram?
- [57:00]
Lindsay Shookus
Women work effing hard on instagram and it's wwfh.community is our website.
- [57:06]
John McMahon
Amazing.
- [57:07]
John Kaplan
So we're gonna put that in the show, notes Lindsay. And then, so I met Lindsay John and the audience through a friend of mine that had Lindsay at one of their big conferences as the, the keynote speaker. So she does a lot of speaking. She's dynamic speaker. She could see with a lot of amazing experience. So Lindsay, how would people find you if they wanted to bring you to one at conferences or sales kickoffs?
- [57:32]
Lindsay Shookus
Well, I have a, I have another website. It was just my name, Lindsay shookas.com and yeah, I do a lot of. I'm on the road a lot now, which is awesome. I get to do so I get to meet so many interesting people. I mean there are associations for everything I'm finding out. Like I cannot get over the associations that happen. But I, yeah, I talk about trust and I tell fun stories about SNL and I kind of, you know, just make the connection between what happens at that show and to like real leadership opportunities and ways to get better. Building trust and connection in your workplace. Yeah, and it's the good news about trust is that it's pretty industry agnostic because it's like, listen, especially in the age of AI, the thing that's not going away is like you're gonna, you gotta build trust and connection with the relationships. It's just, it's, it's more important now than ever. So it's, I'm, I find that I'm the anti AI programming. You know, it's like every single conference now is like a high AI and then it's like. And then me.
- [58:33]
John McMahon
That's awesome. You killed it for us. Thank you.
- [58:37]
Lindsay Shookus
Oh, thanks, guys.
- [58:38]
John Kaplan
Thank you. Lindsay shook us.
- [58:40]
Lindsay Shookus
Shook us like she shook up. Like, she shook us really hard.
- [58:43]
John Kaplan
I said her name, like, 20 times in the last week, and then I just messed that up. Thank you, John Kaplan. And thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of the Revenue Builders podcast.
- [58:56]
Narrator
Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you enjoy the content, please subscribe, rate, and review the show to help us reach more people. This show is brought to you by Force Management, where we help companies improve sales performance, executing the growth strategy at the point of sale. Check out forcemanagement.com for more information.