Revenue Builders Podcast: Stop Selling to the Wrong Customers | The Science of Scaling Your ICP with Mark Roberge

Podcast: Revenue Builders
Hosts: John McMahon, John Kaplan
Guest: Mark Roberge, Author of The Science of Scaling
Date: January 18, 2026

Episode Overview

In this enlightening episode, the Revenue Builders hosts sit down with Mark Roberge to unravel one of the most misunderstood yet crucial aspects of business growth: Identifying and evolving your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP). The conversation explores why many businesses stagnate by failing to adapt their ICP to market and product changes, and how data—not gut feeling—should drive these decisions. Listeners gain actionable frameworks for scaling and learn the company-wide impact of getting ICP and product market fit right.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Companies Fail to Evolve Their ICP (00:39 – 02:12)

• Many companies set their ICP once and rarely revisit it, despite shifting market conditions and evolving products.
• Emotional vs. Data-Driven Decisions:
  • Mark Roberge emphasizes that reluctance often stems from emotional attachment and the allure of any revenue, rather than rigorous data analysis.
  • Quote [01:28]:

    “If it’s emotional and ICP is emotional and it’s not backed by data… that’s the fundamental principle that I see.” – John Kaplan

2. The Role of Lifetime Value (LTV) Over Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) (02:12 – 04:30)

• Many sales orgs mistakenly define ICP by where demand is highest or where close rates are greatest (lower CAC).
• Mark clarifies that the optimal ICP should hinge on segments delivering the highest lifetime value—customers who renew, expand, and refer others.
• Quote [02:22]:

  “It really needs to be that the ICP is based on segments of the market where when people buy it, they see tremendous value, they renew, they expand and they tell their friends.” – Mark Roberge

3. Building a Scientific ICP Framework: The Green/Yellow/Red Model (04:30 – 06:40)

• Roberge describes his “green, yellow, red” classification system:

  • Green: Core ICP; sell aggressively into these segments.
  • Yellow: Adjacent or next-most-likely fits; accept opportunistically but don’t target.
  • Red: Absolute misfits; should not sell to under any circumstances.

• Quote [05:28]:

  “Red is you cannot sell these people. If you sell them, we rip up the contract.” – Mark Roberge

• The framework allows for controlled expansion by experimenting at the ICP’s periphery (yellow) without diluting focus.

4. How Mature Companies Should Handle Existing “Red” Customers (07:10 – 10:55)

• Many organizations find their pipeline (or existing customer base) packed with non-ICP “red” accounts due to historical misalignment.

• Roberge recommends:

  • Immediate triage: Re-classify the customer base by current ICP standards.
  • Resource allocation: Assign reduced support/account resources to non-ICP accounts while focusing growth and care on ICP customers.
  • Proactive communication: Transparently share the science and strategy behind the shift with both employees and affected customers.
  • Quote [09:07]:

    “I found it very important from a leadership perspective to communicate effectively the science behind what you’re doing as a company… No customer wants to buy something that is not—if you’re not going to serve me as if I’m your ideal customer, nobody wants to be in that red area.” – John Kaplan

• Balancing churn: It’s better to let go of misaligned customers than drag the business down by spreading resources too thin or risking reputation with poor service.

5. Organizational Impact: ICP is a Company-Wide Mandate (10:57 – 12:17)

• Properly defining and acting on ICP isn’t just a sales activity—it defines marketing, product development, and customer success strategies.
• Achieving and maintaining product-market fit around a well-defined ICP aligns every function, creating faster growth and deeper value.
• Quote [11:39]:

  “There’s a reason why I didn’t call it the sales system. I call it the go to market system... The sales team is part of the go to market team... and those have to be looked at holistically.” – Mark Roberge

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Emotional Selling vs. Data Discipline:
  “People are chasing revenue versus ideal states.” – John Kaplan ([01:35])

• On the Pitfall of Chasing Any Revenue:
  “No customer is a bad customer and we can sell something to, you know, this customer… If you don’t have the data… I think that’s fundamentally [the issue].” – John Kaplan ([01:28])

• On Letting Customers Go:
  “You just gotta like rip off the band-aid… And all the future quarters only sell into that ICP, you will wake up a year from now and 95% will be in the ICP.” – Mark Roberge ([10:03])

• On Cross-Functional Alignment:
  “When you do the ICP right and you know, you have product market fit, it rallies the entire company…” – John McMahon ([10:57])

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------| | 00:39 | Why companies struggle to update their ICP | | 01:28 | The emotional trap: chasing any revenue | | 02:12 | ICP should focus on LTV, not just CAC | | 04:30 | The “green, yellow, red” ICP framework | | 07:10 | What to do with existing “red” customers | | 09:07 | Employee and customer communication during ICP shifts | | 10:57 | The company-wide (not just sales) impact of ICP focus | | 11:39 | Defining “go to market fit” |

Tangible Takeaways

• Regularly revisit your ICP as your product, competitors, and market dynamics change.
• Use data, especially LTV, not just intuition, to guide ICP.
• Implement a clear, objective framework (“green, yellow, red”) to classify customer segments and focus resources.
• Trim your installed base and pipeline aggressively—support non-ICP customers minimally and transition out where possible.
• Clearly communicate the rationale for ICP decisions both internally and externally.
• Align all go-to-market functions around your ICP.

For listeners seeking scientific, actionable frameworks to ensure you’re scaling with the right customers—and not just any customers—this episode with Mark Roberge is a must-listen.