Revenue Builders Podcast: "The Importance of Recruiting Behavioral Traits" with Chaz MacLaughlin

Date: January 23, 2025
Hosts: John McMahon & John Kaplan
Guest: Chaz MacLaughlin, Chief Revenue Officer at Nucleus Security

Episode Overview

In this powerful conversation, hosts John McMahon and John Kaplan are joined by experienced sales leader Chaz MacLaughlin to dive into one of the most make-or-break elements of building a high-performing sales organization: recruiting for behavioral traits, not just skills or experience. With real-world stories, practical frameworks, and candid reflections, the trio explores what it means to build teams with the right values and how to interview, hire, and develop people who will thrive in the unpredictable world of B2B sales.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Behavioral Traits Matter More Than Skills on a Resume

• Criticality of Hiring for Traits:
  • Chaz: "Hiring to me is probably the most critical aspect of my job. ... In the end, it's on you. You can't point fingers. ... it's the traits that separates you from your competition." [03:02]
  • Trust and post-sale behavior are paramount; hiring is not just about what someone has done, but about how they handle adversity.
• Active Involvement of Sales Leaders in Hiring:
  • John McMahon: "I always find it really strange when some people want to turn recruiting over to HR solely and they don't want to be involved..." [04:12]

2. Identifying and Assessing Key Behavioral Traits

• Company Values as Foundation:
  • Chaz’s company focuses on teamwork, ownership, care, communication, and innovation; these values are embedded throughout the interview process. [05:10]
• Favorite Additional Trait for Sales Teams:
  • Chaz adds "speed" — "Do everything fast. I think prospects like that." [06:37]
• Probing for Traits:
  • Ask about failure: "Tell me about the time when you lost the deal. And then do not interrupt. ... Tell me more." [07:15]
  • Scenario-based questions reveal calmness and response under pressure. "Are you calm, cool and collected?" [08:20]

3. The Top Three Must-Have Traits (and How to Assess Them)

• Chaz’s Top Traits:
  1. Hard Work
  2. Curiosity
  3. Team Player
  • They’re not strictly ranked; all are critical and interconnected. [10:01]
• How to Test for Hard Work:
  • Candidates must present Chaz’s company’s solution back to a panel, with minimal information provided. Thoroughness in the preparation reveals hard work. [10:56]
    • "Candidate we had today shocked me. ... I could put that person up against someone that's been here for six months or a year and they'd probably do just as well in that discovery and that presentation of our solution." [12:32]
• Curiosity:
  • Assessed by how deep a candidate researches, asks questions, and handles unknowns during the interview/presentation. [14:17]
• Teamwork:
  • "What does that really mean? ... As a team player, what types of traits are you bringing to the table to support and embody and deliver teamwork?" [05:55]
• Memorable Quote:
  • John Kaplan: "You are a walking audition for what it's going to be like... If you're a salesperson and you're interviewing, you're a walking audition for what you're going to be like as a seller. If you are a sales leader, you are a walking audition for what it's going to be like to be led by you." [15:36]

4. Cultural Alignment, Coachability, and Adaptability

• Coachability vs. Swagger:
  • "Best candidate on paper" may fail the audition due to overconfidence or lack of humility. This is often un-coachability and a red flag for adaptability. [18:54]
  • John McMahon: "If they're not coachable, they're not adaptable. ... The same person you might hire now, they might sell pretty good for a year and a half to two years, ... and then two years later... they're a dinosaur." [23:48]
• Importance of Culture Fit:
  • Failing to hire for full culture fit (all five traits) can undermine both the individual's and the leader’s credibility. [37:00]
    • Chaz: "The answer to the question is if you're four and a half, you don't get hired." [38:55]
• Patience in Recruiting:
  • Chaz: "Patience is crucial in all of this because when you take your time and you slow down, the more that candidate talks or speaks, they're going to show their true colors..." [35:15]

5. Embedding Traits Beyond the Interview ("Walking the Talk")

• Traits Drive the Entire Employee Lifecycle:
  • Onboarding, review, compensation, promotions, and development are all tied back to the core values.
    • "If you don't score a five out of five on those five values, it's not happening." [21:23]
  • Not just a hiring checklist — traits are a 'master record' for ongoing management and culture. [19:55]
• Vigilance on References and Self-Awareness:
  • Reference calls are still essential and can yield critical insights about a candidate’s growth areas. [32:54]

6. The Never-Ending Recruiting Process

• "Rule of Three": Always Have a Pipeline of Candidates
  • Kaplan: "You should be recruiting for three people. Always for three people. ... The best hires we've ever hired are the not in play players." [41:11]
  • Recruiting is a process, not an event; stay in-network and proactive even without open headcount. [40:45]
  • Have candidates ready for unexpected departures, promotions, or life events. [42:43]

7. Working Effectively with Recruiters and Internal Stakeholders

• Pushback on Fast Hires:
  • Chaz describes being fired by recruiters for being 'too picky,' but stands by slow, quality-focused hiring. [45:48]
  • Kaplan’s "Highlighter Test": Make recruiters speak in your company's values, not just resumes. [47:18]
• Speed in Making Offers:
  • Quick turnaround in the offer process is also part of your own "audition" for talent. [49:08]
  • McMahon: "How long to get an offer letter out after you told the candidate they have their job is an audition for what it's like to work in that company?" [49:08]

8. Skills & Knowledge: What Matters Most in Large Enterprise Sales

• Skills Still Required — But Can Be Developed:
  • Communication (written/verbal/Zoom/presence) is #1. [51:03]
  • Leadership/Management: Rep must "quarterback" complex, multi-stakeholder deals. [52:58]
  • Listening: "Are you taking the notes? ... If I'm going to learn something, I gotta write it down." [54:06]
  • Objection handling, negotiation, objection to numbers, etc. [55:40]
  • "If they have the brains, they're going to pick up the knowledge you give them. ... Skills are gained over time." [56:22]
• Company's Responsibility for Knowledge:
  • Kaplan: "What problems do we solve? How do we specifically solve them? How are we different? Where have we done it before?" [57:00]
• Top Three Enterprise Sales Skills (Kaplan):
  1. Attach to the biggest business issue (requires great listening/questioning).
  2. Influence decision criteria with your differentiation.
  3. Be a voracious qualifier. (Qualification is everything.) [59:51]
• Outside-In Mentality:
  • Chaz: "If it's important to the customer, it's important to us." [61:26]
  • Kaplan: "You have to first make it all about them before you earn the right to make it all about you." [66:02]

Memorable Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |---|--------|--------| | 03:02 | Chaz | "Hiring to me is probably the most critical aspect of my job. ... it's the traits that separates you from your competition." | | 07:15 | Chaz | "Tell me about the time when you lost the deal. And then do not interrupt... Tell me more." | | 15:36 | John Kaplan | "You are a walking audition for what it's going to be like... If you're a salesperson and you're interviewing, you're a walking audition for what you're going to be like as a seller." | | 18:54 | Chaz | "What we see is laziness." (referring to candidates who rely solely on their track record and do not treat the interview as an audition) | | 21:23 | Chaz | "If you don't score a five out of five on those five values, it's not happening." | | 23:48 | John McMahon | "If they're not coachable, they're not adaptable." | | 38:55 | Chaz | "If you're four and a half, you don't get hired." | | 41:11 | John Kaplan | "You should be recruiting for three people. Always for three people." | | 49:08 | John McMahon | "How long to get an offer letter out after you told the candidate they have their job is an audition for what it's like to work in that company?" | | 61:26 | Chaz (quoting CD Carlos) | "If it's important to the customer, it's important to us and it should be important to me." | | 66:02 | John Kaplan | "You have to first make it all about them before you earn the right to make it all about you." |

Noteworthy Segments & Timestamps

• [03:02–04:59] – Chaz outlines why hiring for traits is job #1 and how behavioral traits trump resume skills.
• [06:35–07:56] – Methods of uncovering real-life behavioral traits in candidates.
• [10:01–15:36] – Deep dive on top traits (hard work, curiosity, teamwork) and interviewing techniques.
• [18:54–24:57] – Dangers of hiring un-coachable "swagger" candidates and how it affects culture and credibility.
• [21:23] – Real consequences of not living up to company values.
• [35:15] – Patience in the hiring process; warning against "hiring fast."
• [38:55] – Uncompromising stance on hiring for complete culture fit.
• [40:45–43:48] – The "never-ending" recruiting pipeline and the rule of three.
• [49:08–50:33] – The hiring offer process as part of a company’s audition.
• [51:00–56:57] – Critical skills for large enterprise sellers (communication, leadership, listening).
• [57:00–61:26] – Company’s responsibility on knowledge; top three skills in enterprise sales.
• [61:26–66:31] – The "outside-in" mentality and why qualification drives everything.
• [67:54–68:46] – Final reflections on the practical value for leaders and sellers.

Summary

This episode is packed with practical wisdom about why sales leaders must relentlessly prioritize and own recruiting for character and culture fit, not just credentials or “A-players” on paper. Chaz MacLaughlin, John McMahon, and John Kaplan lay out tactics and frameworks for sourcing, interviewing, and onboarding for behavioral traits—along with blunt warnings about the cost of compromise. The trio also explores how to keep your talent pipeline healthy, how to embed values across the entire employee lifecycle, and how coaching, qualification, and adaptability fuel ongoing success in enterprise sales. Essential listening for any sales leader, recruiter, or ambitious seller navigating high-stakes hiring in a challenging marketplace.

“You are a walking audition for what it's going to be like as a seller—or as a leader. Your interview is your audition, and the way you handle yourself is what people are going to expect.”
— John Kaplan, [15:36]

“If it's important to the customer, it's important to us.”
— Chaz MacLaughlin (quoting CD Carlos), [61:26]

Useful For: Sales leaders, hiring managers, recruiters, aspiring sales professionals, and anyone responsible for building or scaling high-performing commercial teams.